#204 – Why Your Discovery Calls Aren’t Converting (And What to Do Instead): Web Design Business Live Q&A

Shannon Mattern (00:12.386)

Well, hello everyone. Welcome to our live QA for Thursday. I almost said Tuesday. Thursday, June eleventh.

Look at everybody coming into the room. And then we will dive in and get started. So if you're here with me live, say hi in the chat. Let me know where you're watching from. and if you're listening on the replay, awesome. Like we're we are all about

you know, asynchronous participation here. So hello if you're also listening, listening on the replay. so

The way that this call works is that I host one of these every single month and I have a list of pre-submitted questions from our audience. And I answer those and I answer as many questions as I can during our time together. And if you're just here to listen in, that is totally cool.

But just like inside of our programs, your questions are a gift. There are no stupid questions. And I highly encourage you to take this time to to get your questions answered and amazing getting everybody in the room. So this is your opportunity to ask me anything about your web design business and just get some questions answered. Get get a per get perspective from

Shannon Mattern (02:03.15)

someone who has worked with thousands of web designers like you. So hey Mark, so good to see you. Glad you're here. so I see that Sonia's here, Raquel, amazing. good to see you all. So, like I said, the way that this call works is we have you pre-submit questions. I'm gonna answer all of those questions.

And then if you didn't submit a question ahead of time and you have one, you are more than welcome to pop that question into the chat and ask. but I'm gonna answer the pre-submitted questions first. So

Let's go ahead and dive in. I'm really curious about who's here today. So put a one in the chat if you are brand new and you've never worked with a client before. Put a one in the chat. Brand new to web design. Never worked with a client.

All right, put a two in the chat if you've been in business more than a year and you've worked with clients. More than a year and you've worked with clients.

Shannon Mattern (03:27.616)

All right, we've got a few twos coming in.

Alyssa said two, but not in web design. in what in what capacity? Alyssa, super curious. Put a three in the chat if you are not brand new, but you're making the amount of money that you want to be making and you're working how much you want to be mark working. So three in the chat. You're not brand new.

Things are going exactly how you want. You're making the amount of money you want to be making and you're working how much you wanna be working. Alyssa said logo design. Mark's a three-ish. That's a great place to be.

Shannon Mattern (04:15.862)

All right. We got some more people coming into the waiting room. Congratulations, Mark. There is. There's always room for growth. I think as as entrepreneurs and web designers, we are always, you know, wanting to create the next thing. So good to see you all. so drop a four in the chat if you are.

Making the amount of money you want to be making, but you're working more than you wanna be working.

Shannon Mattern (04:52.706)

Making what you want to be making, but working too much.

Shannon Mattern (04:58.774)

And then drop a five. If you're not brand new to web design, you're not making what you want to be making, and you're working more than you want to be working, which is the majority of the people that I talk to. So it's okay. There is no womp here. There is no womp womp here. That's so normal. Yes, Web Designer Pro is representing today. It's awesome. All right.

So you are all in the right place. You're exactly like who I love to talk to. And like I like I said with Mark, like as entrepreneurs, like we're always like we're all we want to grow. Like we're we're goal setters. We want to to get to the next level. So that's really like what we do here at the Web Designer Academy. And I work with women web designers in three different ways. And so

Mark and I have talked about this. but I am next pay stay tuned on my email list because in the next few weeks I'm going to be announcing something brand new for all kinds of web designers freelancers. So Mark and I will finally get to work together, and I'm very excited for that. but I work with women web designers in three different ways.

And the first way is the Web Designer Academy. And it is perfect for people who have been in business for at least a year. Typically it's more than that. they've worked with clients, and you're not making as much money as you want to be making, and you are working more than you want to be working. and so we really help you put systems processes and strategies in place to increase your.

prices for the work that you're already doing and put boundaries in place on the work that you're doing so that you can stop you know, providing first class levels of service for bargain basement prices, which is causing a lot of the burnout. And so we get kind of underneath to, you know, sometimes it's strategy, sometimes it's systems, sometimes it's mindset. Some there's a little bit of all of that, but we are not a one size fits all course. We're like a group coaching program. So we kind of really get to the heart.

Shannon Mattern (07:20.61)

Of what's going on there and help you solve that for your specific business. So that's the Web Designer Academy. Then we have our next level of mastermind. And that is for someone who's at a more advanced stage of business. you're already making the money that you want to be making, you're probably always looking to grow that, but you're hustling and burnt out. And what next level helps you do is grow from what you've already built.

And stop trying to apply one size fits all strategies or different business models to your business and start making really personal, highly strategic shifts to break through to your next level of income, stop overworking, all of that type of stuff, and implement our next level framework on top of your existing business to kind of unlock those revenue shifts and figure out like where you're getting stuck. So

Those are like the two main ways that I work with web designers. And typically what happens is people come in through the web designer academy door. They implement our package matrix strategy, our paid discovery strategy, our our processes and systems for like setting and holding boundaries with clients, cleaning up old legacy difficult client situations, raising prices with current clients and kind of getting the messy stuff cleaned up.

And then they come into the next level mastermind after they've like gotten all of that and they're ready to grow to the next level. Or sometimes people come straight into the next level mastermind door. They're like, I'm already making five figures. I want to grow from there. Maybe I'm going through something in my personal life I need some support with, or I keep hitting this income ceiling and like bumping up against it and getting stuck. I don't want to tear down my whole business model. I don't want to start something new. I don't want to implement this other thing, but I need.

help fixing what's going on with me, that's what we do in next level. So if you're interested in either of those programs and you want to like see what it looks like on the inside and sit in on one of the calls, see what the programs like for the Web Designer Academy, you can go to WebdesignerAcademy.com forward slash open house and come and sit in on our coaching call on Tuesday, this Tuesday, I think that's June 16th.

Shannon Mattern (09:46.742)

If I have the date right, I need to open up my calendar. Yep, I got it right. Tuesday, June 16th. And sit in on a real call and see what that's like. And if you are more aligned with the next level mastermind, you can go to webdesigneracademy.com forward slash next, learn more about that, and come to our next call for that, which is Wednesday, June 24th at 2 p.m. Eastern. We won't be having a call for that next week.

Because we're having a mini in-person retreat here in Columbus where we're all like a handful of us are getting together and doing some business planning and coaching for a couple of days. so Floyd just joined us and my husband's name is Floyd. So I've never met another Floyd. Hi, Floyd. I mean, I have, but like not in not in any of the things that I've ever done in my business. So good good to see you here, Floyd.

So with all of that being said, we have four questions pre-submitted today. If you have a question that you want to make sure that I answer, you can go ahead and drop it in the chat. also I'm gonna put a link to the page where you can submit a question and I'll make sure to get your question answered. So

Mark only took five years. Yeah, I know. so let's go ahead and let's go ahead and dive in. So the first question that we had pre-submitted for today is from Sonia. And Sonia said, I've been intentionally increasing visibility for my web design business through LinkedIn, and I'm launching a lead magnet soon to create more consistent lead flow.

I mainly serve service based businesses like coaches, educators, speakers, and therapists. I'm getting conversations and discovery calls. Awesome. But I'm noticing momentum slows after proposals are sent. I'm evaluating whether I should shift more decision making and next steps into the discovery call itself instead of relying on proposal follow up. How would you approach improving conversion while also increasing lead volume and attracting more aligned premium?

Shannon Mattern (12:13.07)

clients. This is such a good question. Sonia, I see that you are here. Are you is there anything else you would like to share as we dive into that question? We can talk through it. Yes. Hello, first of all. My first time here. so great to meet you. Yeah, it's great to meet you, meet you as well. So just a little context. I've been doing website design for a couple of years. last year,

And before that was like kind of like contract side work because I had a full-time job at the time. And so around July or August of last year, I was laid off. So left my engineering job and decided to go all in with my business. So congratulations. Thank you. It's been challenging because this is my like first full year of just getting everything official, like the LOC and all that.

And like I've had clients, I've had at least maybe nine to ten clients in the last couple of years. However, this year things have been very slow. Like I have the conversations, I'll have discovery calls, and then things just kind of stall out when I send the proposal. So I don't know if my process needs to change because I'm noticing that pattern. some some of them have expressed interest, like they want to work with me, but

They're trying to figure things out with their budget. So I have like at least a solid yes from one person. Another person is just really busy. And then there's someone else that I had a great call with, but I just haven't heard anything. I've followed up with them a couple of times and it's just been crickets. So I think that's pretty much all the other like background information that I thought might be helpful. That is very helpful.

and I love that you have data. You're like, this person is budget, this person is timing, and this person is ghosting me. So that's a question for you. Does your proposal have an expiration date on it? Yes. I think right now I've been playing with the time frame. I put initially five days and then I shortened it to three business days, but

Shannon Mattern (14:35.65)

That doesn't seem to impact whether or not a person just moves forward and make the deposit. I have gotten some feedback from other people saying that maybe closing things on the discovery call would kind of help move things forward, like getting the deposit on the call and then sending like official contracts like right after, but I haven't I haven't done that yet. So I'm not sure what the best way is to How do you feel about

Closing on the call. To be honest, I have recently increased my prices. So the first time that I said it out loud, it felt a little weird. And I was like kind of over explaining. So I just noticed that. And the next time I just said the price, let there be, you know, pauses or questions. So I'm getting better with that each call. So I think.

I would try it out to see how it would go, but honestly I am a little nervous about doing that. And I want to make sure I do it in the right way so it doesn't come off as like salesy. Yeah, I think like the way that I we teach it in the Web Designer Academy, like so there's there's weird things that can happen when people feel like they're under pressure. Right. And so or like

Or like they feel like they've been given an ultimatum or or whatever. And so closing on the call, I think, is like a skill that I think can be learned. And I'm not saying that it like it never works or whatever, but for me, it's never felt aligned. I have any time I've ever gotten that advice, like you gotta get the credit card on the call, like that just doesn't feel aligned at all with how I

run my business or how I want to interact with my clients. So I've never done it and we've never taught it that way inside of our programs. And so but what we do recommend is incentivizing the decision. And I do this all the time with how I make offers. And that could be like I am going to put a deadline on your decision.

Shannon Mattern (17:02.51)

and the reason being is that I'm not going to hold this hold this space for you in my brain or on my development calendar. and I'm also gonna build a follow-up process around that deadline for you to make a decision. whether it's three days, five days, ten days.

You can experiment with with different things. but I probably I make it typically like a week to ten days. And I know that probably goes against like so many sales experts in terms of like, you know, if they're not an immediate yes and like the whatever, then they're a no. And I'm like, well, at certain price points, that's not necessarily true, you know? And so my take on it.

Is putting I'm gonna put a deadline on the decision and I'm gonna follow up and I'm gonna incentivize a decision as well. So, for example, for the Web Designer Academy and for our next level mastermind program and my private coaching, I incentivize if you make a single payment. you could incentivize like a discount on the deposit if they make the deposit in a certain amount, like.

You know, if they decide to move forward and they pay that deposit, maybe they get something extra if you don't want to do a a financial discount. But I'm going to like have a reason to talk to you about the deadline multiple times. Then I'm also going to follow up and be like, hey, you know, this this proposal expires tomorrow. Which are you planning to move forward? Like I'm gonna explicitly ask you. It's not gonna be like,

Hey, just following up to see what you think. Hey, like it's gonna be a very explicit, like, are we working together? Yes or no? Kind of question. Like, would you like to move forward? So being direct in your follow-up, having a reason to follow up, having a non-punitive deadline incentivizing the decision are all ways that that you can

Shannon Mattern (19:28.642)

Compel people to make a decision. Cause if they don't have a reason to make a decision, their decision is going to be no decision. And that's what the that's what you're experiencing with. Or it's going to be like, well, you know, I can just put this off because now's not the right time. It's not going to be like, you know, so with the person that is just like ghosting you, then there's also like the reality of like.

life lives and you but like if you're if you let them know, hey, I'm gonna follow up with you on this date, you know,

You're gonna like increase your chances of them moving forward. So and then you can also like if someone wants to work with you but budget, like I am not mad at payment plans. Like I'm always fine to offer that if it's financially sustainable for me, me to do that. how does all of that feel to you?

It feels good. And I'm glad you mentioned that, like doing what feels aligned for your business. Cause my whole thing with my business is creating like the calm environment. And I don't I want to take away the overwhelm. So that is one of the reasons why I just don't feel right like trying to close it out on the call. Like, hey, let's get your information. It doesn't feel good to me. So when I've gotten that feedback, I do feel a little hesitancy with that.

And I like what you said about incentivizing things. That's something that I didn't consider. And then the language. actually I'm going through a boot camp with working through some of my leads. And that some of the feedback that I got was like my follow-up language is not like there's no sense of urgency. There's no like what you what you mentioned, like having a some kind of like a statement in your in your emails. I think most of the times like I'm just checking in to see where things are.

Shannon Mattern (21:29.26)

Not necessarily like more firm. In any outreach or communication, whether it's like marketing outreach, whether it's follow up, it should always be a yes or no question at the end. Always. Never if you're interested in moving forward, let me know. Let me know if you're like if there's a period at the end of that sentence, then you know you need to revise that sentence. it my favorite is like.

would you like to move forward? Are you planning on moving forward? Like, I want like I'm just asking you yes or no. Like, an email that ends in a period is not one that anyone ever thinks they need to respond to. An email that ends in a question is like, I need to respond to this. They may still choose to ignore you, but it's just it's you're way more likely to get a response.

If you end that in a more direct question. And sometimes that feels like, I'm being pushy, I'm being whatever. But my whole thing is like we had a discovery call conversation. I probably asked you like when you want to launch this project. You probably gave me a timeline. If that timeline is actually true to reverse engineer when we need to start, we need to start by this date. And I need to know by this date in order to even hold like

pencil you in. So if it's not just this nebulous open ended thing that I'm going to always be available whenever you say you're ready. And I think that that's what we we think when we're not booked out that we will do that. And we act like we'll do that. And we're like, well, I need money. So yeah, I will. I will wait and I will do it whenever you say yes. But we we don't

That's not how that works. Like we have to act as if there is a timeline and and a timeline for decision in a container. And even if the client doesn't say that they're really particularly urgent to get started, you are because you got another client coming. So you have to act as if like th this is not just open ended. Whenever you want to do it, we can do it. Yeah. That is a great point. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (23:52.258)

Thank you. I was gonna ask about like the one the the one particular lead that hasn't responded at all. And it's been I re-engaged with them last week after about a month of of nothing after my first follow-up sequence. So if you don't hear back from a certain lead, do you just kind of let that go? Or I would say I'm following up one last time before I close your proposal. And like.

Are you planning on moving forward with this question mark? And you can soften that. Like I don't say it like so, like, mm, like I might say, hey, just checking in since I haven't heard back from you. what following up one one last time before I close out, close out your proposal and archive our conversation. Are you planning on moving forward with this? And it's like, she's not sitting here waiting for me to call her.

And ask her out or whatever. Like it's moved on. So if I want to move forward, I better say something. Okay. Thank you so much. That that's very helpful. Thank you. Great questions. Thank you for asking those. I always say your questions are a gift. drop your favorite emoji in the chat if that question helped you with your business. and thank you for giving the room the gift of that question. so our next

question is from Anonymous. I recently came across your package matrix recorded session in Austin Church's paid community. I was super intrigued, but I'm wondering how that would apply to a website VIP day model. I only offer VIP days, but the scope is not always the same. Sometimes it can be one to two VIP days depending on project. Sometimes it's just one day

But with a strategic focus on certain pages, what is the best way to apply a package matrix for VIP days without adjusting the scope of the project or adding more things? This is a great question. Is the question asker in the room today? and because I have some more questions. Jess, awesome. Hey Jess. is there anything you want to add to that? We can kind of talk through how to.

Shannon Mattern (26:16.218)

package matrix VIP days. Yeah. So recently I actually restructured the offer instead of VIP days to sprints because I didn't want to put an allocated time like a day because I work on the project asynchronously. but I was listening to your

Your presentation on like trying to have like these three different categories, which I think is great. I actually have two different options when I send out the proposal, like one with the website, which they usually start with, and then another one with the website and the email, and that one has a discounted rate. And that has actually worked pretty well for me on like upselling to a bigger package.

But I was having a hard time like how do I package matrix a sprint where the starting price is four thousand, right? But the the price will always depend on the scope. So if depending on how many pages or how many products need to be added, etc. etcetera. How do I differentiate these different packages without adding more deliverables?

and having like a middle package where people naturally gravitate toward. So I was just having a hard time like, okay, how do I differentiate like these different packages if it's just a sprint? and it's not a set of deliverables. Yeah. this is such a good question. And and shameless plug for the new package matrix method course.

That is going to be coming out in a just a couple of weeks. I'm going to be opening up 25 beta spots to teach the full end-to-end package matrix method, plus four monthly live office hours with me, plus package matrix review sessions, and all of that beta testing, like lifting that out of the Web Designer Academy and making it like just open for anyone to just.

Shannon Mattern (28:36.066)

get their hands on package matrix. I'm so excited about that. That's what I was referring to when I told Mark, like, hey, we can finally work together because he's been asking me to, he's like, can I just work with you in this way? So I just wanted to sh to shout that out. And if you're on my email list, you'll get information about that that course. There's gonna be 25 beta spots. and when they're gone there

They're gone. So that's the kind of stuff that we'll be kind of getting into there. what are some of the challenges that you experience in these sprints that you do? I know you changed from VIP day to sprint, but what are some of the like the the challenges that you've experienced things that like maybe don't go as well as they should on paper?

I think one of the things would be there's two things that that that I can tell you like r straight off the bat. One is because it's a sprint, obviously it's not something that goes on forever and ever. I only put a cap to the revisions for up to one hour. So when I present the website, they have a couple of hours to review it, then they have a Google Doc where they drop.

all of their revisions, right? But they only have me for up to one hour for me to run through all of these revisions. Sometimes it's not enough. And what I tell them, like, okay, if you want more time, then you need to buy an extra power hour so we can continue on with these revisions. 'cause sometimes it's too many. And now that AI is into the mix, now they're like throwing everything in AI. So their their list is like never ending, right? So it's like

It's becoming a little problematic lately. so revisions is one thing, people want more revision time, and then the other one is the support period. So once we wrap up the revisions, then they have like a 15 day quality assurance support period. So that doesn't mean that they get extra design edits, any extra revisions. It just means like, hey, if they find something wrong with the website.

Shannon Mattern (30:56.426)

If they're poking around and learning the platform, which I built specifically on Shopify, you have me for 15 day support period. And sometimes they end their support period and they're like, you know, they have a lot more questions because of course they wait till the very end to support to to submit all their their questions. so I've had a couple of clients ask me, like, can

you know, can you extend it for another week? And I'm like, I'm like really strict with my boundaries. And I'm like, no, but like if you want an extension, then here's the price for that extension. yeah. And then and then the third thing would be like probably scope creep would probably be like the third one where they're asking for more bells and whistles, like

like an extra page here which should be simple enough for you to do right but it's never simple or just a small change right yeah exactly just a quick thing you know like or or I don't know maybe sometimes I see opportunities for upsells like little service upsells like instead of having their link in bio I I I I do like a a landing page where all their links where it lives on their shovel

advice or maybe like a simple product quiz, like little things that I know will help them with either their user experience or or with ROI or everything. But they might be like, but you know, you have some extra time, like you can just add it in there. I'm like, no I'm like it's like hard with boundaries. but they think they bought your time and that they get to fill your time.

With whatever and you also are like they're missing this thing, it could really help them. So you have a little bit of your own like over delivering going on. Yeah, I've been I've been trying to put a stop to that because what I'm doing in those situations is that I just have a running wish list where I'm like, Okay, this is what they can potentially do.

Shannon Mattern (33:15.116)

This is how we can potentially work together on like future projects. And these are my ideas as I'm building out. And then I present it to them of like, hey, we didn't get to this, but these are like some other areas of opportunity that we can possibly work on through another sprint. so but yeah, I mean, I transitioned from VIP days for an eight hour period to like a 20 hour period because of the perfectionists in me.

But I feel good about that change because I feel like I'm making more of a transformative result. but I was, like I mentioned, really intrigued with your Patrick's your packaging matrix. but I'm like, how do I do this for VIP days? Because it's not like other web designers that they're like, you get this page and then you get this and you get this and you get this. And it really depends on the scope of the project.

Yeah. And I mean we don't like necess we don't necessarily like package matrix on the scope of the project per se. It's it's really about the things that you described. It package matrix is designed to preset the boundaries of working with you very explicitly. so there is like a whole pricing strategy around it and like anchoring high and in the sales, like package matrix works on like the sales side.

But also on the delivery side. And so what I talk about externally a lot is like how it works on the sales side, right? For you to like charge higher prices for doing the same work, et cetera. things like that. But on the delivery side, it's magic is when you explicitly saw all the things you could have and then you didn't choose them, then it makes holding those boundaries so much easier. Or or it also like shows the value of those higher.

things. So let me ask you this. Do you want to include an option for people to purchase more revisions right off the bat?

Shannon Mattern (35:22.83)

Probably not, to be honest. We have to build something that works for the business that you want to run and not just trying to be like, because I could tell you, Jess, I could be like, well, your package matrix at the high end could be three days worth of revisions or whatever. And you're gonna charge twelve thousand dollars for your sprint.

And you're gonna charge three times more than what you're currently charging for unlimited revis not unlimited, but like unlimited revisions for a week and a 30 day QA period. and that positions the value of having you do whatever they want for a week, plus thirty days of support.

But if you're like, I would never want anyone to buy that ever, then we don't we can't make it an option, right? Yeah. and how do you feel about your support period? Would you want it to expand beyond I'm okay with that? I'm okay with with that because it's not like they're emailing me. Like I have already an integrated like ticketing support like system in place. I don't mind answering questions because they

At least for the past couple of years, all the support tickets that I've gotten have been fairly simple for me to answer. yeah. and then tell me more about the asking for more bells and whistles. Is there a world in which you'd want an option that like allowed for that and kind of created that opportunity or you're are

Or are you like, no, I would rather not. I wanna add their bells and whistles and my bells and whistles to the wish list. I think I would is that it depends what their bell bells and whistles are. and it really depends on the project on the project, right? because they can their bells and whistles can be like something super highly customized. And, you know, I'm not a developer, like that's not my realm. like

Shannon Mattern (37:45.026)

building an app or, you know, doing super custom coding. but there are certain things that I have under my belt that I can, you know, for sure help them with. I think the support could be one of the differentiators. I'm not sure if I was thinking of like, okay, maybe the highest project the highest level has maybe like the website

and email but I'm I'm not sure if that's the right way to go about it because you're adding now deliverables. Correct. Yeah that wouldn't be a package matrix. That's just two different offers. Do you want offer a website and email or do you want offer B website only? And that's that's just two separate packages. what makes a package matrix is like, I'm choosing my I'm choosing a on I'm choosing like

From d a lot of different variables, but it's like options of the same thing, right? So it's like, it's the sprint. and I'm gonna get the same thing in the sprint. Like, I'm gonna get the website, but what type of access am I getting to Jess? How much support am I getting from her? How many how much time do I have for revisions? Like, what does that look like? And I'm choosing from levels of that, or choosing from like

Not in your case, but like in other cases, like if it's like a maintenance p plan or something like that, that I'm choosing my response time. I'm choosing those types of things. So so yeah, that wouldn't be a package matrix to have two different sets of deliverables in in something. so

Shannon Mattern (39:35.38)

Why do you want to package matrix your sprints? to essential so right now I just have like one anchor, like one pricing, right? On the website is like, okay, a sprint, each sprint is four thousand dollars. But I would like the possibility of upselling, you know, having more selling a project that's more than four thousand dollars.

And giving them options. And I've seen that work with simply with that scenario that I explained of like website or website and email. That alone has like doubled the the revenue per project. so I'm guessing I'm making the assumption that a packaging matrix might do that that exact same thing, where the 4,000 might be like the very lowest of the lowest price point.

And then having a middle point, maybe like at 6K and maybe high having a higher point at maybe like eight or ten K. but I don't know if just more support across these three packages is enough, or if I need to add more than that, like support and revisions, or support revisions and deliverable. I don't know.

I would I would encourage you to get very creative and put some restraints on the solution to this question. Restraint being I can't add deliverables to this. Like if it's website and email, what would the most private jet level of service be for this offer at the high end? What would the business class level of service be? And and

You know, here's what I'm currently offering. and that's and so that's why I asked you all of these questions because the answer to how to package matrix an offer is going to be so different depending on you, how you want to run your business, the problems that you're solving, trying to solve, what's gonna make you love your life, what's gonna make you hate your life. And I see that you're like trying to like

Shannon Mattern (42:02.776)

kind of like back into a price that you want want to to charge for that high end and and you're like, well I don't know if that's enough. Well, the way you find out is you test it. You know, you're like, okay, well what at this at this high end level of service, what would I be willing to do if someone was like I'd only be willing to extend these revisions if I was making triple on this project.

what I'm currently making. And that positions that like keeps you from overworking and over delivering too. If they saw it and they didn't choose it, like they're not even going to ask you for more. And if they do, you're like, yeah, do you want to upgrade to the package that was going to give you more? Like so I would I would

Challenge you to just brainstorm on if I'm not allowed to add deliverables, what would I like to do to package matrix this? and like what would I be okay with at this this price point? That makes sense. And play with that.

And then yeah, keep your eyes on your inbox for the training that I'm gonna be doing to kick off the beta because there's just so much more to the strategy that could maybe unlock some other ideas than what I what I've like talked about here or in other other trainings. So that might be something that could really help. Perfect. Thank you, Shannon. Amazing. Great questions. Thank you for for that.

Austin is incredible. And I got to speak at his Advanced Freelancer Summit about package matrix as well. It was really, really fun. so next question is from Alyssa. How do you outline the scope of work and convince a client that you want to delegate something to another designer, such as SEO copywriting? Alyssa, I think you are here. Anything you want to add to that?

Shannon Mattern (44:24.374)

Yeah, I was thinking in the terms of well, this is kinda gonna really benefit them. And I really need a set of hands because the scope of work within the timeline proposed is it's better if I get someone else to offload this kind of work. How do you go about that? In a core 'cause it's your business and you're allowed to.

Yeah. you you're allowed to outsource whatever you need to outsource as long as you're in control like you're the one doing quality control and making sure that like whatever your contractor delivers is to the to your standard for the project. I don't I don't think you have to convince your client of that. It's just what you're doing, like the

The sky is blue. How does how does that response feel to you? Is it like scary?

Not necessarily. It's I'm just thinking about it in terms of how a seasoned business owner who's been in the game for a long time would respond to that. Yeah. You mean the person your client, how your client would respond to that? Yeah. respond to say like, yep.

I'm working with an SEO copywriter on this and I'm gonna make sure that everything that they do is in alignment with our project and our goals. and you'll get to review it just like you would if I were doing it. Like,

Shannon Mattern (46:16.704)

Are you like concerned that they would be like, No, I'm paying you, you need to be the one to do it? Yeah.

That's kind of one I I I just can't imagine that. I mean, here's here's the

I I know you're not in the Web Designer Academy. so this advice might like be like, easy for you to say. this is one of those cases where I would counsel our students to be like, let the problem come to you. And then most of the time it's it's probably not gonna come to you. but let's play it out, right?

Let's play it out right here. So imagine you tell me that you're gonna do this and I'm like, I don't know, Alyssa. I hired you to do this. I thought you were gonna be the one to do it. What would you say to me?

Shannon Mattern (47:27.662)

I don't know. I'd probably say like

To be more efficient, I'm going to need to delegate this. It's not that you're just only paying me. It's you're paying for the outcome that I can deliver you at an acceptable pace. Yeah. I mean, I I think that that's that's absolutely reasonable for you to say. Like if that I'm trying to think of I'm trying to think of a time if that ever happened to me.

Because I I always just said like this is what's happening, like the sky's blue. Like, so here's the next step. I'm gonna get this all of this over to my SEO copywriter. They're gonna work on it, and I'm gonna get it back to you, and then we'll we'll finalize everything. If someone said, Shannon, I thought you were doing it, I'd be I'd probably here's exactly what I would say. I'd just be like, Yeah, I totally understand that. and

I have this person, they're incredible. And while they're working on that, I'm gonna be over here doing this. and it's my job to just make sure that everything is up to standards. And you know, are there any other questions and concerns I can answer for you for you about this? I don't think, Alyssa, that you have to justify or defend working with other experts.

and I think if you just state it with like confidence, I would imagine you're not even gonna get questions about it. They'll just be like, Okay, cool. Like, awesome. Glad you're working with an expert. Like, that's really smart. Like most seasoned business owners would be like, Cool, she hired an expert to like do that part. So I just want you to walk in like.

Shannon Mattern (49:33.152)

Of course, this is how it goes. Sky is blue. and it's in everybody's best interest. And I am happy to answer any and all questions and concerns that they might have about it. And I and there's no need to defend myself. Yeah, Kristen said I think it's all about the initial positioning. So I know I kind of put you on the spot there, like, let's role play it right now. What would you say? So

thanks for playing along. And I know that that can be like Ugh like I don't know. I don't know what I would say. I I always

Shannon Mattern (50:16.098)

I always start off with empathy in a in a conversation where I'm like where someone's like

Empathy and questions, right? So if someone was like, I thought you were gonna do it, I'd be like, yeah, I totally I I can see why you would think that. That would be an empathetic statement where I'm like, I can see why you would think that. Here's what's happening. help me understand your concerns about this. Curiosity and empathy, if it comes back where if it comes back the way that they're not okay with it, curiosity and empathy, and then

Typically that'll clear up any misunderstandings. And then if they're like, no, I really want you to do it, then you're like, okay, well, here are our options. Then we in order to meet the time, like, we're gonna need to adjust the timeline. So would you prefer me to outsource this or would you prefer to adjust the timeline for delivery? Your choice. And so that's kind of how you can handle some of those things as well. But if it got all the way to the end, which I doubt it will.

but like I said, like in the Web Designer Academy, I'd be I'd encourage you to just like try it, let the problem come to you. And then if it went the way that you didn't want it to go, you'd pop into our community and be like, okay, help. This is what they said. I need the next step, and we would help you with with that next step. So great question. and then finally.

Say that I love I love the empathy thing. Yes. Awesome. I'm glad that that that helped. so any questions from those of you who are here with me live that you didn't pre submit that you want to ask on our session? I've got nine more minutes.

Shannon Mattern (52:15.02)

I had a form that I just submitted. I don't know if okay. Let me refresh. I can just say let me refresh. Yeah. And make sure because there might be others. Okay. cool. Go ahead. Yeah. So what I'm running into is moving closer to working with more local business owners. And I'm trying to have a lot more clarity in the specific services that I offer.

and not offer the whole gamut of services and just do branding, web design, and development. But what I'm running into with the local business owners is they kind of want it all. They need it all. They want, they're like, well, do you do social media? Do you do email? Do you do ads? And I don't I need to come up with a good response that makes them feel like I'm not where I don't just say

No, I need to somehow sell the value of what I am offering and feel like they still like have a path to go do those things later or somehow set them up with some level of reassurance. Cause I feel like the vibe when that question comes across is like doom and gloom. So how do I make them feel comfortable moving forward with me with just the services that I offer? That's such a good question. And

I was just having a conversation with one of my private clients yesterday about how people think that the job of a of the website is like to do marketing for them. But the job of the website is to it's got a different spot in the customer journey. And I think that that's how I would maybe approach these these conversations to be like, what I do is I make sure.

That you are going to get the most out of the marketing that you are doing on social media, paid ads, your Google Business profile, email marketing, whatever channels you decide, all of that traffic you're sending here. And I am an expert in making sure that this site operates the it and is designed to capture that traffic's attention.

Shannon Mattern (54:42.326)

move it forward in the customer journey, where what whatever that is for them, whether that's to book a call or learn more about you, fill out the contact form, buy products. Like my expertise is making sure that no matter where this traffic is coming from, the website's doing its job. And so that's what I work with you on. And then depending on what other expert, whatever marketing channels you're going to use,

I recommend that you work with an expert on the couple of things that you choose so that you're confident that they know how to like that they're leveraging that platform correctly, but you can be confident working with me that when they get here, like it's gonna be best practices, it's designed to capture like whatever it is that you do. So I would just stand in firm in

I do this, I'm an expert in this. And when this is done, you can go work with other experts to drive track traffic here, like being knowing with full confidence that this is gonna be working properly and you're not gonna be wasting time and money on marketing strategies that aren't gonna work. I'm not even and if they're like, well, do you do that? You'll be like, nope, my sole focus is on making sure that like

the traffic that you're sending here converts. I just wouldn't even entertain the idea that like I should do it or that like I'm just gonna stand firm and like, no, my expertise is here. And for your type of business, I feel like local SEO would be great for you. And here's a referral to someone that I know is really good at that and is an expert in it. Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. How do you, how does that feel for you?

I think then it sounds like the best thing I can offer them is the is clarity because what they're dealing with is overwhelm and too much stuff coming at them and not direction, not a clear direction to go. So if I just break it up clearly with for them and say, well, I offer like a conversion focused website for you, these other guys can the marketing team will drive the traffic there, but we're gonna need this. You're gonna need this.

Shannon Mattern (57:01.902)

piece of the puzzle regardless is good. And then I think I also like need to talk numbers right out of the gate because they are thinking numbers right out of the gate. Like these like contractors and realtors, they just are like, how much is all this going to cost in their head? So I feel like I need to be prepared for that conversation and say, you know, if you have X dollars a year that you're willing to dedicate to your own marketing, because they they all put it in a marketing like

Envelope like design and actual marketing. I think I need to be able to say, like, okay, so an investment of ten thousand dollars for a strong website. And then if you're gonna budget like a thousand dollars a month for marketing, you're pushing them to a place that's a one-time investment where marketing is more like

could y you know, it's not an investment as much as it's throwing money at something. So I think having that breakdown of where their dollars are going is what they need to hear. But I don't know that I've like nailed the numbers. Like and what so I'm like, what is this gonna cost me? I'm looking at like just cost, not value.

Not what's it's like what is leaving my bank account versus what's gonna come back in. Okay. And so yes, talking numbers is important, but you taking the lead at the jump and learning more about like what's one new client worth to you? what is your average monthly revenue right now? What are you looking to grow it to? Like those are the numbers you want them to be thinking about. because then when you're like, okay, the analogy.

just came to me. I'm sure it's not new to this conversation and I'm probably heard it somewhere, but it's like, okay, well imagine putting a bunch of water in a leaky bucket and you're just gonna have to keep pouring water in and pouring water in and the bucket's never gonna fill up. That's what's happening if you are sending spending a bunch of money on marketing to a website that isn't like properly built and designed to like capture the traffic. So what I do is

Shannon Mattern (59:22.604)

Like, you know, make sure that you're gonna, you know, keep more of the traffic that's coming here and turn more of that into clients. And if you were to get one new, you know, ex client a week, what would that do for you? And, you know, and just painting that picture for them. That's a different picture that you're painting than like Okay.

Yeah. It's just talking about the the numbers from a completely different perspective from a value perspective from a cost. And then they're like, well and then they're like, how much is this gonna cost me? They're already thinking, yeah, like how much more am I gonna get? Mm-hmm. My my worry is that that I'm not prepared for that conversation and that they're like, okay, so

How much value is this going to deliver and what's the likelihood of me getting conversions and client based off of this investment? And I think what they need to see is like the proof and the data and the case studies. And I I don't know that I'm prepared to show that. We teach inside the Web Designer Academy paid discovery. So the the pre step to that would be.

Okay, we'll start off with strategy where I'm actually gonna like do some research on like you and your business and all of this stuff. And then I'm gonna put together a plan for you based on benchmarks and best practices of and looking at like what's your site currently doing now? What do I reasonably think we could improve? and also knowing that like there's also going to be like measuring and testing and

You know, all of those types of things. So I understand where you're like, no, I have to like prove, like, I have to convince them. and yeah. And you just have to paint the picture and then let them let them decide. Okay. And like help them do the math in the right direction instead of the like, if I pay her $10,000, I'm gonna have ten thousand dollars less.

Shannon Mattern (01:01:46.562)

versus, if I pay her $10,000, that might solve a lot of the problems that I'm experiencing right now. Yes. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. but also I think it's about like your question about, but I don't offer marketing. It's like, okay, well, we're gonna make sure that this is working really well so that your marketing dollars that you go invest over here, you're getting more for that than you would if if we didn't work together first.

Yeah, I think that's a good spin. I've heard a client tell me that. Like I recognize that there's no point in put doing marketing if I don't have this foundational piece first. Cause in their mind it it's an asset. It's a business asset. Yeah. You build revenue generating assets for your clients. Every single one of you here do. and so that's the that's the conversation to have with them. Yeah. Okay. Sounds good. Thank you.

Good question. That's a great place to wrap this live QA up. Thank you all for being here. I hope you heard something that helped you. And if you want to come to our Web Designer Academy live strategy call, I'm gonna put this in the chat for you. You can go to WebdesignerAcademy.com open house, fill out a form, tell me more about your business. And if I think we can help, I'll invite you to come. And then if you're interested in our next level,

Mastermind, you can fill out the application and come to one of our mastermind calls. So yeah. This was super fun. Thank you for being here. Thank you for your questions. And I will hope to see you all at one of our future trainings. All right. Bye everyone. Bye. You're welcome.