#173 – Unlocking The Power Of Website Copywriting With Nikki Thompson

Shannon Mattern (00:01.976)

Hello everyone and welcome back to the profitable web designer podcast. And today I'm joined by Nikki Thompson, who is a website copywriter and story brand certified guide. And Nikki is the owner of clarity branding, which is a boutique branded website copywriting studio. And she helps agencies and brands cut the fluff and transform their messaging with stories and website copy that converts. So Nikki, welcome to the profitable web designer.

Nikki (00:28.938)

Thank you, Shannon. Thanks so much for having me.

Shannon Mattern (00:31.19)

It's so lovely to meet you. can we just start with you sharing just a little bit more beyond the bio, right? A little bit more about you and what you do.

Nikki (00:40.286)

Right. Yeah. So yes, like you said, I'm Nikki Thompson. Personally, I am a wife and mom of three kids, eight, six, and two. And professionally, I'm a website copywriter. And I partner with web designers and agencies exclusively now. I really don't take on any direct clients anymore. And I offer integrated copy partnerships. So my goal is to become an extension of the team.

and really feel like copy is part of the process to a much more strategic website. And so, obviously, lot of benefits there for the designer in terms of improved timelines and that higher level of strategy and ROI for the website as well as opportunity for increased revenue.

Shannon Mattern (01:27.896)

my gosh, I can't wait to dig into all of that stuff. But before we go there, tell me a little bit about your backstory. Like what has the path been for you to go to the place of like, okay, and now I just work exclusively with agencies. Like how did you get started in this?

Nikki (01:30.322)

Yeah.

Nikki (01:45.426)

Sure. Okay. So I worked in marketing after college. I was an English major and then kind of got into the marketing field. like, yep, this is it. And my most previous full-time position was in bank marketing and love that role. just, after my second child was born, I'm like, you know what? I feel like the calling to do something else, to step back from.

the nine to five and was very fortunate to have that flexibility to explore. And so I decided that was the end of 2019. So I got to be home that Christmas, just like a really like memorable like holiday season being home for the first time with my kids. And then COVID happened and actually I was reading, we have a video here. So building a story brand, I read this book. I was in a lot of like marketing.

Shannon Mattern (02:34.04)

Mm-hmm.

Nikki (02:38.762)

groups like the Daily Carnage on Facebook is one group that I was always like reading things about like how can I start freelancing? And somebody mentioned this story brand, building a story brand book and they were like, a lot of people were commenting on how they'd love to do that certification, but it was really expensive. So naturally, of course, I'm like, ooh, I want the expensive thing. Like I want to like learn more about what this is. But that was like my like light bulb moment of how I could help clients building a business myself freelancing and

And that was kind of the start. After I had our third child, I had actually brought, started working with like a sales and business coach because I'm like, okay, if I'm going to keep doing this freelance business, like I really need to figure out how to sell what I'm doing and make it sustainable. And so that was a couple years ago, two years ago now. And she kind of helped me see like, okay, where are things working right now? Well, I had one agency partner.

who was sending me regular work through and I was handling messaging for their website builds. And so that kind of is like kind of where it started. And I just have really loved now I'd like to be even more passionate because I feel like copy and design, like really, I just believe that so strongly that they need to be investments that are made together, especially for established businesses. Like there's a time and place for like, you your DIY website or your DIY messaging, but like when you're an established business, making that investment in a website, copy is an important.

piece. And I'll quote other designers who have said it's 51 % of the website. And so I think that just working together with designers has been like such a great and natural collaboration.

Shannon Mattern (04:20.407)

my gosh, there are so many little threads that I want to pull at there. But the thing that like jumped out at me that I'm like, Ooh, I want to know more about that. And we'll come back to I have a whole list of things. We'll come back to some of these things. But I talk a lot about money mindset on this podcast. And we you're you've mentioned like, you know, copy is 51%. We want to be creating like, you know, ROI for our clients, all of those types of things. But something that you said you were like,

Nikki (04:30.005)

Yeah.

Nikki (04:37.269)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (04:50.335)

Everyone was talking about how expensive the story brand certification was, and that piqued my interest. You're like, I want the expensive thing. I'm just so curious about your mindset behind that and why that piqued your interest and why that intrigued you and what compelled you about that.

Nikki (04:56.534)

Right.

Nikki (05:07.414)

Sure. Yeah, I guess I was kind of in that season of my life, like trying to figure out how I could and what I could do exactly for clients. I'd always had like a natural ability for writing. And I was like doing some blog writing and some email writing. I was like creating graphics on Canva. I was kind of doing all different things, working on Fiverr. I had a Fiverr profile that took off on there and trying to figure out like my place in this online business world. And so,

Shannon Mattern (05:17.164)

Yeah.

Nikki (05:36.086)

I love that it's a framework. So that's another thing. It's like super clear and structured in terms of the messaging layout. And so it just was like, there was a lot of things about that, but I would say, and actually I just sent somebody a message about this today because they were asking about the Story Brand certification. That investment, like it was significant. It took me a couple years of, you know, like this side hustle saving up to do the, to invest in that, but that really

unlock something in me in terms of making that big of an investment that like this is this is what I'm going to make work and that yeah and it gave me a lot of confidence in myself because I had this kind of name behind behind me or like alongside of me to kind of like grow and so that's that was a big piece of like my personal development in having a business.

Shannon Mattern (06:32.511)

I hear that so often. So we have a program here called the Web Designer Academy and we are not a beginner level program. We are definitely like a more advanced program to help web designers build profitable, sustainable businesses. And people are usually like more mature in their business when they come to work with us. And that is one of the things.

Nikki (06:37.652)

Yeah. Yep.

Nikki (06:47.167)

Okay.

Nikki (06:53.504)

brain.

Shannon Mattern (06:58.493)

that is like part of the journey that's like almost so intangible. It's like not anywhere on our sales page, but like the transformation or the shift that happens internally when you make that level of a commit. And when I say level, I don't mean money, but money is like, like part of it, right? That level of like, okay, like I'm doing this. I'm all in. I'm like, I'm giving myself the tools.

Nikki (07:16.534)

Sure.

Shannon Mattern (07:26.411)

the frameworks, the systems, the processes, the support that I need to be successful. I'm no longer trying to figure it all out on my own. And I know that by doing this thing, I'm going to add so much more value to my clients. And Storybrand is legit. that's like, we have so many of our, like a lot of our students have gone through that to be able to like add copywriting as well. And so just like,

Nikki (07:53.782)

Sure.

Shannon Mattern (07:56.882)

you being committed to your craft at that level, it does it shifts something in you like

Nikki (08:04.99)

Yeah. And I would say, and probably, you know, the same in your case too, like, you know, you do the initial training and then you essentially are paying for licensing and ongoing training community to be, to continue to be part of that. But being part of that community, it was kind of like a leveling up of like, okay, these are like, you know, people who are running established agencies who are becoming certified. And now I'm like, you know, in this group, in this club of people's. And so

It has been a really great resource for me, you know, popping in and asking questions and, you know, getting people's feedback. People are very generous to share, you know, their experience. So it has been really great resource in that sense as well.

Shannon Mattern (08:50.017)

I love that. So for design web designers and agencies and, you know, web developers and people who love to build websites, we tend to have an expectation of ourselves that we're like good at every single part of the web design process. Like that. Not only do we have to understand the tech and the strategy and conversions and customer journey and graphic design and

Nikki (09:16.074)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (09:19.293)

use UX design and copy. Like there are people out there that are unicorns like that, that are, you know, really good at all of those parts. But what I see more often than not is the expectation people put on themselves to be excellent in all of those areas. And when they aren't naturally talented or actually don't like parts of that, most often

Nikki (09:38.622)

Mm-hmm.

Nikki (09:47.766)

you

Shannon Mattern (09:47.786)

and that it's just they don't, they don't like it, they don't enjoy it, it feels like a grind, then instead of maybe partnering with someone like you, what they tend to do is say, well, I don't think I'm good enough at that. So I'm just going to lower my price so that like, I don't, because I'm not really sure I can provide results in that area. So since I'm not sure I can provide results, I don't think I can charge that much.

Nikki (10:04.192)

Mm.

Shannon Mattern (10:15.701)

Now I'm going to charge less so that the stakes are lower if I don't deliver something. And I find that so backwards. So that's what I see happen all the time. And you partner with agencies specifically, I imagine, to avoid that exact scenario.

Nikki (10:22.976)

Sure.

Mm-hmm.

Nikki (10:40.53)

Right, right. And so the beauty of it is, so offer these integrated copy partnerships and it's on a per project basis. So there's no like ongoing expense. There's no, you know, there's no financial commitment, but we have an agreement. If, you know, I were to work with your design agency, like we have an agreement on this is what kind of packages that is pretty typical for your clients. And we have a set.

price so that you can confidently sell content, copywriting, and know what it includes and all of those good things. And yeah, I just like the beauty of building out your subcontractor network. I think there's a season, and now the longer that I'm doing this, I'm seeing, okay, there's one designer at least that I have a partnership with who is getting to the point where she'd probably hire a copywriter in-house. She has that level of volume and has built up a team. And so that, you

kind of natural attrition is going to happen. And I'm seeing that now. But I feel like there is a point at which, you you're a couple years into your web design business, you're ready to level up, you know, bringing in support on a contract basis. There's no, you know, ongoing financial commitment to you. There's no risk. And you can support clients at a higher level until the point that you, you know, if you're headed that direction of growth and scaling.

then you might want to hire a copywriter in-house in the future. But I think there's kind of that middle area, which is where I fit into helping you serve clients at a high level.

Shannon Mattern (12:12.619)

Yeah, it's such a huge pain point that this integrated copywriting services solves. So tell me like someone listening to this is like, okay, you're describing my dream life, Nikki. All I really want is to, you know, book the website, like have all of the content like handed to me in the end, like walk me through step by step, like how this works when, when someone's like,

Nikki (12:15.381)

Mm-hmm.

Nikki (12:25.726)

I really loved it.

Nikki (12:33.184)

Let's go.

Shannon Mattern (12:42.281)

Okay, I sold a package like I knew I knew how much you know, Nikki's charging for the copywriting service. I booked my package, I built that price into my package so that I'm not paying her out of my pocket, but I'm paying her because I charged the client for that. Now what does this process look like to get started working with you?

Nikki (12:55.382)

Right.

Nikki (13:03.732)

Yeah, so if we have a relationship or partnership kind of agreement in place where we have that pricing set and that kind of general cadence, I like to know typically what a designer is booking in terms of projects, like if they're doing one a month or if it's more or less than that and kind of what their goal is to get to. That way I don't take on too many partnerships so I can make sure I service clients in an effective and timely way.

If you reach out with, I've got a client that's, sending out the proposal now, like they want to get started in two weeks. Like, yep, that's no problem. Let's get going. And I like to keep, you know, efficient time frames and timelines as well. But yeah, so it's kind of just an open communication of like when you're typically when they're sending out the proposal or sometimes the client is booked and they are maybe just leaving that copy deadline a little bit in flux until we, we establish.

my availability, but usually there's not a concern there. then the project. So most of the designers, I would say initially they want to be on like the strategy calls. So I do a 90 minute messaging strategy call initially with the client and to dig deep into like those story brand questions, who their ideal clients are, what the problems are, pain points, tell me stories of great clients you've worked with, all of that type of questioning I'll do. And sometimes the designer wants to be on that call. I would say,

after that first client, they're like, okay, this is great. You just handle this and you do your thing and I'm gonna do the brand and logo design while you're doing messaging. So it's pretty hands off for the designer once they're comfortable with the process and really understanding what it looks like for their client. I CC them on all email communication. And I'm really clear with the client during our messaging work that we are in a messaging phase. And so our goal is to get

to approved and final content. And once those pages are approved, then they'll move on to design. So there is kind of clarity around the fact that we're moving towards an approval. And then once the pages are in design, there's not going to be major changes, if any. So that's kind of another mindset thing. But yeah, then once content is approved, I send files to the designer, as well as SEO information. So they have kind of a plug-in plate, copy and paste.

Nikki (15:27.274)

page title, edit description, I do all the on-page optimization. So they're kind of ready to go. And that is the beauty of like, can either, if you love design, you can focus on the design. If you like the business development side, like go out and sell and bring a copywriter in and bring a designer in. whatever, if like I have designers that I support on like whatever their version of success looks like right now.

Shannon Mattern (15:51.684)

my gosh, that's beautiful. And so I'm just thinking of like everything that you just described, you so beautifully just said, here's this boundary and here's this boundary and here's this boundary and here's this boundary. And it didn't feel like boundaries at all. It just felt like here's the process and here's how this works. And I see a lot of designers kind of getting stuck in like the

Nikki (16:09.142)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (16:19.169)

I'm waiting on my client for this. I'm waiting on my client for that. And we help them a lot with that in the Web Designer Academy. But just bringing someone in like you, it's not just getting the words on the page that it benefits. It benefits this project progressing in a really like sustainable, efficient way. And that helps everybody involved. Save time.

Nikki (16:25.686)

Sure.

Nikki (16:32.127)

Mm-hmm.

Nikki (16:44.789)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (16:48.097)

Get the project launched sooner, helps your client get results faster, helps you be able to onboard more clients quicker. So it's just, seems like such a win all the way around.

Nikki (16:56.99)

Yeah, right. Right. So typically the designer will say, hey, we want to start, you know, November 1st for design. So I'll have copy to you like the week before just to have a little bit bigger room. But honestly, whenever there's a deadline, like we make sure it's done and the client, can, I can usually determine sometimes the client needs an additional call depending on their personality. They might need like a revisions wrap up call because if, if we don't have something on the calendar,

they aren't gonna really review files in detail or they'll never really give that final sign off. And I want that. So then I'm like, okay, let's hop on the phone. And usually it's like, yep, this is great. So I'm kind of like always refining my process too, but like, okay, where's their friction? And sometimes it's like unique situations, but like if it can help all of my clients to like have even more clarity on something.

always kind of adjusting that way.

Shannon Mattern (17:57.121)

So you had mentioned earlier that you're like, a couple of years ago, I decided to work with a business and sales coach, I think is how you described it. And you're like, we looked at my business and we were like, here is the part that's like, based on your goals, here's the part to focus on. Can you share more about that process and maybe like, what were some of the challenges that you were experiencing when you decided to work with a business coach?

Nikki (18:07.403)

Yep.

Shannon Mattern (18:26.445)

and how you landed on finding, it sounds like you're like, let's find what makes this the easiest for me to grow my business the way that I want.

Nikki (18:27.606)

Sure.

Nikki (18:36.67)

Right, right. So I will say I have been a stay at home mom since the end of 2019. And I have had very flexible help with the kids, but primarily, you know, two days a week at most childcare. And so I have built my business around very limited hours. And that has just kind of been like efficiency has been part of my, I used to think it was like a struggle. But now I'm like, that actually

it made me more efficient, that limited time. And so I stopped looking at, you know, the struggle in my head of should I put the kids in daycare or not and feeling frustrated internally. I'm like, actually, so I had a little coaching through that realization. But in terms of where I was in that season, I had I had kind of not taken on any more projects as I went on maternity leave. So I had that break with my newborn, our third child.

And the business was kind of, you know, I was kind of dried up. Like I didn't have any leads coming in. I needed to kind of like get the wheels turning again, reach out to reach out. And so I thought, okay, I had heard of through my existing or previous web designer who designed my website, she had worked with a sales coach. And so I'd heard about her and my gosh, do I need help with sales or do I help with leads? And so I like did that struggle. And I just knew I needed

to find a way to make this more sustainable so that I wasn't spending so much time because I wanted to maintain the client work. I didn't want to hire that out. So how can I make getting the work a little bit more easier? And so that's a little bit where I had this existing agency partner. like, that's the easy button for me is if they find the client, like I am, you know, my...

My strength is in that execution and efficiency of getting that work done to the highest quality. But the lead in sales, I didn't want to do as much of. that's kind of, yeah.

Shannon Mattern (20:39.936)

That's brilliant. I mean, we talk all the time about like creativity within constraints, right? You're like, I have these very real constraints in terms of three children. You said eight, six and two. So three children under, you know, like under the age of eight and two days of childcare. And, you know, in that it's like, okay, well, what if I want to operate my business in

Nikki (20:45.93)

Mm-hmm.

Nikki (20:54.016)

Yep.

Nikki (20:58.741)

Yep.

Shannon Mattern (21:09.578)

this way and I don't want to do it in this way, how can I creatively create the outcome that I want instead of saying, well, I guess I can't have it this, like, I'm going to have to settle, right? I'm going to have to settle for, you know, having it look differently or whatever. And of course there's always compromises to be made and there's always like things like that. But I think when you shift,

Nikki (21:22.389)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (21:34.9)

shift into like, can, like, what could this look like? How can I make this work? I love how you said easy button. Like, let me just partner with the people who already have to have already have to source my clients. And then I can swoop in and save the day for them. Like what a win win.

Nikki (21:48.179)

Right. Yeah.

Nikki (21:52.734)

Yeah, so a few things that were really impactful in my journey, I had heard this, know, it's like concepts that click at the right moment. So one of them was who can introduce you to 100 of your next clients? So not just finding one next client, but like who can unlock 100 of them? And I'm like, okay, well, that's, I love writing websites, so I guess a web designer is.

Shannon Mattern (22:05.845)

Hmm.

Shannon Mattern (22:10.27)

I love that so much.

Shannon Mattern (22:15.752)

And also like a podcaster for web designers and web design agencies, one person, hundreds of your ideal clients, like, I love this thought process.

Nikki (22:18.358)

Yeah, hello. Right. Right. Yeah. And so for me, I didn't really want to niche down in terms of a specific industry yet. I mean, that might happen in the future. But for right now, I love working with a variety of service based businesses. And so I still get to do that.

I don't work with designers who do e-commerce sites because I feel like that's a little bit different of a beast. So service professionals, and that's like super broad range of businesses. So it's fun to always be learning about different things. But yeah, who can introduce you to 100 of your next clients was one of the things that kind of unlocked for me, like who do I target? And like you said, I think if you build your business around a skill, so mine was

Shannon Mattern (22:48.428)

Sure.

Nikki (23:11.528)

website copywriting. love that. I love websites. I love the messaging. And if that's the skill that I have, who has the biggest pain point around that? Well, it's, it's typically web designers. And I've spoken with numerous web designers now in the last two years since I kind of made the shift in my positioning. And they will confirm that content is the biggest pain point and stress factor and clients are anxious and have panic attacks.

about submitting their content on time and who knows what kind of state it's in and or they'll say I'll just provide you, we'll just plug in content later and you're like okay well right

Shannon Mattern (23:53.248)

AKA never. So you also mentioned earlier that like, well, we know Storybrand is all about high converting copy. And, you know, I'm super curious because a lot of the conversations I've been having on the podcast and with experts that are coming on in various different, different industries, you know, the nature of how people are

Nikki (24:07.168)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (24:22.807)

finding information online and even engaging with websites is changing dramatically with AI and different things. so we're kind of thinking about like now more than ever, your website, by the time somebody even makes their way there because zero click search results in Google and just

Nikki (24:30.091)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (24:51.959)

Chat GPT answering the question before someone gets to your site. Now, what are some of the, I wouldn't even say shifts, but I would say tried and true things that are more important now more than ever in website copy and messaging in the age where we're getting less traffic, but the traffic that's arriving, they.

Nikki (24:55.616)

rain.

Nikki (25:14.507)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (25:17.997)

they found their way there very, very intently because they wanted to be there. So I'm curious what you're seeing and what you're like, how you're focusing on that.

Nikki (25:24.117)

Right.

Nikki (25:29.33)

Yeah, I mean, would say, you know, like, common best practices, of course, in there in the header of the website, when somebody first lands on the site without having to scroll down, is it clear what you offer, who you serve, who it's for, what the value is, what the next step is, right. So having that like clear call to action. I also am really passionate about like all of our headlines should tell a complete story. So we know people are skimming.

So they're not gonna read every section, but like the headlines alone should be like value packed and like descriptive. And down in the footer of the website, I think it's a really great place to have a kind of elevator pitch or some sort of like two sentence max statement about again, who you are, business name, what can I like category, know, what you offer, who you serve and the value because.

A lot of those pieces can be skimmed and people know to go down to the footer for that type of information as well. And then, know, like frequently asked questions on a service page, having that type of description, know, you know, depending on, you know, how the algorithm finds and answers questions, like that's another piece that's important as well.

Shannon Mattern (26:37.847)

So how can web designers talk about the value of copy and messaging to their clients when they're selling web design projects? We all know we need words on a website, but how can they really convey the value of strategic copywriting and design? Let's not just think about it later. Let's not just grab what was on my old website. How can they really convey that to their clients when they're selling projects?

Nikki (26:50.923)

Right.

Nikki (27:05.906)

Yeah, I think it comes in a couple different ways. One is the clarity. is it clear what you offer, who it's for, what the value is? So that clarity is a huge piece. But there's another layer, which is the memorability. Having a unique brand voice and you don't want to sound like every other landscaper's website. OK, it can be really clear, but do you sound like everyone else in your industry? So there's also that differentiation.

One trap that I see a lot of business owners fall into for DIYing their content or having an older site, it's typically a lot about the business. Like, been in business since 1973. Welcome to, I'm just using a landscaper, welcome to green landscapes. There's so much wasted opportunity. And if we've got a couple seconds to get people's attention.

The messaging and the words that we use need to be really intentional to capture their attention, let them know they're in the right place. And people will read in depth, but you have to have that initial hook to let people know they're in the right place and that it's worth reading.

Shannon Mattern (28:13.281)

So how do you as a copywriter, like, stay creative and stay sharp and manage your creativity? I know for a lot of our listeners who are running web design businesses, we're wearing a lot of hats. We're doing marketing. We're doing sales. We're doing administrative stuff. We're living our life. And then suddenly today we have a deadline and now we have to like shift into creativity mode.

Nikki (28:27.423)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (28:42.731)

You know, how do you personally like turn on your creativity or maintain it or get into that zone to write copy?

Nikki (28:51.456)

Sure, sure. That's a great question. mean, I would say, I would say I think time restraints have worked in my favor actually, as much as I think, I just want more time. I think in some way that does like really cause me to focus, it's the reason I need to focus so much more. And I kind of have like a cave for an office that I work in. And so I have like the quiet space to be away.

Shannon Mattern (29:12.279)

Yeah.

Nikki (29:21.386)

I mean, of course, like taking care of yourself, going for walks and taking breaks, but I like reading. When I'm doing a project with a client, I like to look at not only their competitors, but just like other websites in general that might be in that industry and might not, and just kind of get inspiration for other ways to say things. One of my agency partners focuses specifically on accounting firms.

and I really didn't know much about the tax and accounting space and this was a couple years ago and I thought, man, this is going to be really challenging. And I would say the first project or two was. And then I'm like, well, how am I going to write about accounting firms forever? Like they're all going to sound the same, but actually, ironically, you know, the more you do it, the more you learn about that space and what makes them different from each other. So it actually has gotten a lot easier the more that I've written those sites because

I can understand some of the nuances between what their goals are.

Shannon Mattern (30:22.444)

that's really fascinating that you would think you would get like, yeah, you would kind of get stuck in a pattern, but you're like, this one does this and they do this and here's how I can, you know, like creatively take that on. So I love that. I want to talk, we also talk a lot about mindset on this podcast and the mindset that it takes to

Nikki (30:26.314)

Mm-hmm.

Nikki (30:30.23)

Right.

Nikki (30:44.256)

you

Shannon Mattern (30:47.564)

run a business, to go after big goals, to make some big changes or strategic pivots, things like that. What do you think some of your biggest mindset shifts have been along your journey so far?

Nikki (31:07.23)

Yeah, that's a great question. I would say one of my best lessons has been to let others in. So I operate as a solopreneur, right, but I brought on a VA that helps me, you know, kind of on a project by project basis or a couple hours a week. She's very flexible. So that has been a great addition, as well as now I work with an SEO specialist on every project. So I

sometimes would get keywords, keyword strategy from the designer, but not always. And so I'm like, okay, this doesn't feel like the most strategic way to approach things. So I have that integrated now into my process. And so that has been, that has been huge. Like it feels like such a weight. And I'm like, I hope that I feel like that for designers. I hope that that feels like such a weight off of their shoulders and they can really feel like she has that handled. That frees me up to have so much confidence in this project.

Shannon Mattern (31:40.854)

Mm-hmm.

Nikki (32:06.408)

in the work that we're doing, but not have to like mentally drain you to figure that piece out. So yeah, I feel like letting others in. And I started working with, like I said, like a sales coach and she's kind of turned into more like business coach for me. And again, just like surrounding yourself with people who believe in you. Cause I feel like working in the online space is very unique, at least in my family. And so it's like, nobody really knows what I do.

which is fine, but it also can just feel like really lonely. so surrounding yourself with people who I guess they are in this world, but also externally too, but just who believe in you and what you're capable of.

Shannon Mattern (32:48.796)

So beautiful. I love how you said that. Let others in. have my tendency is lone wolf. My tendency is like, I'm smart, I can figure anything out. I don't need help if I need to know if I need to figure out what to do. I can figure out how to do it. I can do it reasonably well. There's probably not a lot you could put in front of me that I'm like, I don't know. I don't know how to figure it out. And that is my kryptonite.

Nikki (32:55.541)

Mm-hmm.

Nikki (32:59.947)

Yeah.

Nikki (33:11.445)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (33:14.784)

That is truly my kryptonite in terms of the whole like, yeah, I got this. I can figure it out because what it does is it keeps me from operating in my zone of genius. It keeps me constantly working, filling every free second with more things because if I can do it all, like then it's all on my to-do list, right? And so.

Nikki (33:15.134)

Mm-hmm. Sure.

Nikki (33:31.147)

Mm-hmm.

Nikki (33:41.877)

Right.

Shannon Mattern (33:44.269)

When I started letting others in, it was absolutely out of necessity. And then I started to experience what you just described. the moment someone's like, you don't have to worry about this. I got this. You're like, wait, what is this magic? Like someone else has just like lifted this off of me and I didn't even know how heavy.

Nikki (33:51.669)

Mm-hmm.

Nikki (34:02.902)

Right?

Nikki (34:12.106)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (34:12.402)

I felt until it was gone. And then you're like, I feel like I want more of this lightness. So yeah.

Nikki (34:14.88)

Mm-hmm.

Nikki (34:19.934)

I that's a trap. I would just wager that. I think that's a trap that most creative, ambitious people have is you can be good at a lot of things. And so you can almost do it all. But how much is it going to drain you? And so I'm experiencing that myself and having people help me with different things. But for web designers, too, you probably could do it all. But how much time is that going to take you and energy?

Shannon Mattern (34:45.812)

Yeah, that one of the other things we talk about all the time on this podcast is pricing. I'm talking like I am constantly encouraging our listeners to charge profitably and sustainably to stop charging for their time to stop charging for deliverables to really look at the outcomes and results that their client will be able to create after working.

Nikki (34:53.142)

Mm-hmm.

Nikki (35:05.92)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (35:11.882)

with them, not just to like operate the tool that they built for them, but for like the whole process of working with someone who can, it's like alchemy, right? It's like what you create together with a service provider like you, or like the people listening to this podcast, or the people in our program who care so much about the outcomes and results that their clients get.

Nikki (35:22.858)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (35:38.71)

Put the two or three when you like bring in other partners, people together and you create so much more than the sum of the parts.

Nikki (35:47.702)

Yes. So yes, I would love to share a little bit about so I have designers who work in my fee. I build a designer so they everything's you know, running through the designer in terms of invoicing. And so they can either choose to have that as an add on on the proposal, in which case, everyone adds a kind of management fee to that. So there's, know, a markup that they can add to that copywriting add on.

Or I would say, you know, around that $10,000, $15,000 plus websites, copywriting is part of the package. Kind of that higher ticket, like it needs to be part of the package where you don't want to just leave that to chance. It's really part of the strategy. And you're right, it's not just, okay, copywriting is 2000 or 3000 and you just add that. Like there is an exponential value in terms of what the site is going to do for them. And you're able to charge accordingly.

Shannon Mattern (36:23.084)

Mm hmm. Yep.

Shannon Mattern (36:45.484)

So the biggest, I call this mind trash, but I would say objection people have, the thought that keeps them from doing it or from believing in the exponential value is they're like, well, what if the client doesn't get exponential results after we push go live and months pass? What if they don't get all of these outcomes and results?

that we reasonably think that they could get based on what we know is possible. What are your thoughts on that?

Nikki (37:24.094)

Yeah, that's a great point. And that's something that I want to be more strategic in as a copywriter. And part of the reason I brought in an SEO specialist into my work is like, I want to be able to see the numbers of like, okay, yeah, we love the content, like the copy. It reads well, the client loves it, but is it effective? And so that's something that I want to be more intentional about tracking. I would say not all of the designers I work with do that. So it's more project-based, like they launch the website, they move on.

And so how do we know that they are getting results? And like, what is the search volume? And what is the click through rate? That's not something that I have necessarily set up right now, but it's something I want to be more intentional in the future. But I think also there's a larger conversation that the website is a piece of their marketing strategy. And so it is not the only thing, right? Like they need to be doing other things to drive people to the website and, you know, how they're positioning their offer and

Shannon Mattern (38:11.925)

Yes.

Nikki (38:22.582)

what they're doing on social media. So it isn't the only thing, it is the, I think it is probably one of the most important sales tools and it's like the hub that everything points to, right? So it is very important. There's other pieces that, that affect it.

Shannon Mattern (38:39.02)

Yeah, I think it's one, reminding yourself that there are other pieces to this puzzle that affect this, and we are putting together the best first pancake, so to speak, that we can. And we're setting expectations with the client of this is one part of the overall puzzle over time as the business owner, as the website owner.

Nikki (38:46.773)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (39:08.56)

If you don't provide conversion rate optimization or, you know, these ongoing services as the designer, you know, to work with people who do provide those ongoing like, okay, here's what's happening. Here are some theories. Here's what we can test. Everything's constantly changing with algorithms, with search, with AI. There's no web designer or copywriter on this planet that could just like,

Nikki (39:25.78)

Yum.

Shannon Mattern (39:36.119)

push go live on a website and have it constantly like, like perform at like this crazy high level all the time without even like looking at it or monitoring it. So I think it's like realistically looking at yourself and what your responsibilities are and what your role is and expectations setting for the client about like, here's what we're actually doing here. Here's my role. Here's your role. Here's the ongoing future.

Nikki (39:46.899)

Right?

Shannon Mattern (40:06.092)

maintenance. I don't like that word. It's kind of like too basic for what it is, but like optimization and monitoring of this. So I just want everybody to like take that pressure of perfectionism off yourself.

Nikki (40:07.69)

Mm-hmm.

Nikki (40:21.374)

Right, right. And I get really excited about like, can we, once a website goes live, is there an opportunity to have like a messaging refresh? So maybe we're not having to start from scratch, like, you know, six months into business or, mean, I'm working with more established businesses now, but like, still there can be quarter turns that you're making all the time of like, and so, you know, maybe having

Shannon Mattern (40:33.727)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (40:45.864)

I love that.

Nikki (40:50.28)

some sort of like where we're refreshing and not having to start from scratch and to help them on that evolution and almost like making it like part of like your business is going to evolve and this is how we're going to support you through the next couple years in growth.

Shannon Mattern (41:07.656)

I love that, especially for people who are like, don't want to do like, or maybe they're like, I use Squarespace or something. There's not a whole lot of ongoing maintenance. Like, how can I continue to serve my clients like quarterly refreshes? love how you're like, you're making quarter turns all the time. That's a beautiful way to share that. So we have just a few minutes left before we wrap up. So I have a couple more questions for you.

Nikki (41:15.69)

Mm-hmm.

Nikki (41:26.891)

Go.

Nikki (41:33.354)

Yeah, sounds good.

Shannon Mattern (41:34.444)

Before we go, the first one is what belief about yourself did you have to change to get to where you are today?

Nikki (41:42.141)

gosh.

That is such a great question.

Nikki (41:54.858)

I'm trying to think of what my response would be to that.

Shannon Mattern (41:57.741)

I know it's the one it's the it's the one that there's always silence after that question as people think like what is what's that shift? Yeah.

Nikki (42:03.571)

Yeah.

Nikki (42:08.404)

Right. I think I've always had like the entrepreneurial drive. I just didn't know like what that would really be for me. And I've, you know, tried a couple different things, but I think maybe that like this, doing this work that I'm doing now and raising kids, I feel that tension in that poll a lot. But I feel like this work lights me up. Like this is...

I feel like I'm using my God given talents right now. And I am, it was such a kind of nerve wracking experience to walk away from full time, even though we had, and like I said, I was very fortunate to have that flexibility to do that. But man, if I didn't take that leap, like, I can't imagine not being where I'm at now. Like this work that I'm doing is, is truly, and I guess that's probably naturally how you build a business is around what you are naturally gifted at. So it just feels like I'm in such alignment with.

work that I am meant to do at this point. and I think it makes me a better mother because I am really fulfilled in that way.

Shannon Mattern (43:15.072)

That's beautiful. And what a perfect way to wrap up this episode. Can you share it with all of our listeners more about where they can go to learn more about you partnering with you? I know you have a masterclass for people. So can you share all of that?

Nikki (43:19.243)

Yeah.

Nikki (43:29.386)

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm most active on Instagram at Clarity Branding Co. And you can find my website, claritybranding.co. And I do have a link in the header for a masterclass. So it's a 20 minute video about how to 10x the value of websites that you're doing with copy. So yeah, I'd love to connect. And thank you, Shannon, for having me.

Shannon Mattern (43:54.102)

Thank you so much for being here. I'll link all of that up in the show notes. And yeah, this was an awesome conversation. I cannot wait for everyone to go connect with you and get some copywriting support.

Nikki (44:05.738)

Wonderful, thank you so much.