#199 – The Sneaky Word Sabotaging Your Web Design Business with Aiza Cheung of Studio Coya

Shannon Mattern (00:01.39)

Hello everyone and welcome back to the profitable web designer. And today I am joined by my guest, Isa Chung, who is the brand chef, AKA brand designer behind Studio Koya, where she whips up creme de la creme offer branding for high achieving service providers who want their signature offers to stand out and sell. So Isa, welcome to the profitable web designer.

Aiza (00:28.053)

Thank you. So excited to be here. Cha.

Shannon Mattern (00:32.078)

Yeah. So I was on your podcast a few weeks ago and that interview was so delightful and just getting to know you and learn more about you. was like, I want to turn the tables and get to ask you all of the questions that you got to ask me and just learn more about you. And so can you just tell our listeners a little bit more about you and what you do?

Aiza (00:48.759)

you

Aiza (00:58.859)

Yeah, of course. So yeah, as you mentioned, I call myself the brand chef. I am a brand designer and I predominantly brand offers. So signature offers, whether it's a service, whether it's a course program, anything that you can say is a signature of yours that people recognize you for. I believe that it can be branded. I also brand businesses as well. And

a little story behind why I call myself the brand chef. So my branding studio has a food theme around it. So that's the reason why everything I do and talk about always has some sort of a food pun or food analogy or something like that linked back to it. So that's the reason why. So yeah, that's basically what I do.

Shannon Mattern (01:44.344)

So tell me more about your, yeah, tell me more about your background and how you, like your journey to where you are today.

Aiza (01:54.071)

Yeah. So I started off like I had a very kind of straightforward trajectory even from school through university. I did graphic communication and then I went into corporate job doing graphic design. Did that for a while. Started with artworking then moved on to some design agencies. And then in 2018, end of 2018, I got made redundant. And

I am a very risk-averse person, so, I mean, but for some reason I feel like that was when the universe gave me a bit of a push. And at that time I had booked a holiday to Thailand, so I was like, you know what, I'm gonna go on holiday and then just see what happens after I get back. And after that, that's when I started working for myself, and I guess once I got that

first freelance job and started, you know, talking to people and talking to past clients and past people that I worked with, I realized that I can do this for myself. previously I had an Etsy shop. So I had been kind of doing businessy stuff behind the scenes, like while I was in my nine to five, just to, I guess, scratch that itch. I've always wanted to...

go out on my own but then never had the guts to basically. So when I got Made Redundant that was like okay I can do this and once I did I was like getting Made Redundant was the best thing that ever happened to me. I always say that because it gave me the push and then I've been doing it now for seven years.

Shannon Mattern (03:38.942)

I am very risk averse as well. So I think that's probably why we vibed so much when we one of the reasons why. And I love that you looked at being made redundant as an opportunity to do the thing that you were scared to do. How did you get your first clients when you decided to start freelancing and not go look for another job?

Aiza (03:45.439)

Yeah.

Aiza (03:55.157)

Hmm.

Aiza (04:08.439)

Yeah, I mean, I think because in the UK there are recruitment agencies and within those recruitment agencies, they can get you either full-time jobs or freelance jobs. you know, when I was applying, when I was looking, it was just like, OK, well, we've got a freelance job. Do you want to do it? And then it was like, OK, yeah, why not? And then it just kind of rolled on from there. And I when I I've kind of I guess it was like

I kind of prepped myself already by having the Etsy shop. I was just selling prints and it was like, okay, I understood a bit of like, okay, I need separate finances, a little bit of marketing, a little bit of running a business. So I understood those things. So when I got pushed into, like, got made redundant, the step wasn't as scary. So it was just finding the avenues. First of all, was recruitment agencies, but then I was also talking to

people that I knew. And at first I was like, you know what, like, I don't know anyone. Like, how am I supposed to get jobs from people that I know? But you'd be surprised. And, you know, once I got talking to people, like the opportunities came in and yeah, and that's, that's how I got my first clients. was recruitment agency, but also just my existing people that I knew. I wouldn't even call it my network because it wasn't really a network. was just talking to people that I knew. And then they were like, oh yeah, I have to know someone or

Like, I used to work in an agency and then that boss hired me back for some freelance projects as well. So yeah, that's how I started.

Shannon Mattern (05:51.03)

I think that I love that it wasn't like, I went straight to Instagram and started creating content. And SEO optimized my website and all of these things. That what you did was you just told people, I'm guessing, you told people like, hey, I'm not going to go find a job. I'm going to freelance.

Aiza (05:58.749)

and

Shannon Mattern (06:16.279)

Did you say this is what I'm doing? If you know anybody, send them my way. What were the words that you say? Because I hear from people that they're just like, well, I don't want to be pushy. I don't want people to think that I'm using them. They feel like they're putting people out by letting them know what they're doing. So I'm super curious. How did you start these conversations?

Aiza (06:24.489)

trying to remember.

Aiza (06:39.521)

Yeah.

Aiza (06:45.687)

think it was more friendly catch-ups. It was like, oh what are you doing now? It was more curiosity when I was connecting with people. It wasn't, oh I need, I must find a project from someone so I am going to like go and be like, do you have a design job for me? It wasn't really like that. It was kind of more like, oh you know this is what I'm doing now. I'm like you know

Shannon Mattern (06:49.079)

Yeah.

Aiza (07:11.147)

going out on my own, working for myself, and if you know anyone, if you have any opportunities, I'd love for you to keep me in mind. It's a lot less salesy than people think it is. And that's kind of how, I guess it goes up and down a little bit throughout my journey, but I always come back to it and I'm like, yeah, I just talk to people I know and catch up and be like, okay, how are you? What's up kind of thing.

and go from there rather than a, I need to book a certain type of job or I need someone to come through for me. It's not really like that. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (07:52.618)

I love that. think that what I've seen is that people think, because I am designing and building websites for other companies, and maybe the things I'm building for them set them up for these certain marketing strategies that they're going to be using, like traffic marketing, social media marketing.

you know, all of the things that they that's also the way to market their own web design business. And they forget it can be as simple as just letting people around them know what they're up to and what like, and just staying connected that way. Like we're in a relationship business, not a traffic business. And it's, it's this weird thing because we're doing things to help other people get traffic.

Aiza (08:23.863)

Hmm

Aiza (08:37.791)

Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (08:46.123)

But maybe the way that we grow our business is based on relationships.

Aiza (08:50.327)

Yeah. And I think also, you know, we see it. Well, those are the things that we see people doing, right? People talk about like the marketing strategies. People show up on Instagram. People show up doing these things. So we think, oh, that must be the way like that people get most of their clients. But when you actually go behind the scenes, like, you know, I've worked with clients that are consultants and consulting agencies and marketing agencies. And it's still.

about relationships. It's not just about, you know, the outward marketing that you see, especially in the service based world. You know, we have to work with people and we have to understand what people need. And I think, you know, just because we don't see other people doing it, doesn't mean that they're not. And I think we just fall into that little trap of like, well, everyone's doing it this way. So that must be the right way.

not the case, I think we need to look at it more, I guess, all-encompassing. And also pull the levers, right? Like, you sometimes it's good to do it one way, sometimes it's like, let's do this bit more, depending on lots of different factors.

Shannon Mattern (10:05.549)

So you started just getting clients, they started rolling in through different relationships, different connections. When did you start really focusing on the high achieving service provider and really helping with those signature offers?

Aiza (10:30.071)

Um, so this was actually only about a year and a half ago. So my journey from getting freelance projects, and then I went on a brand strategy, brand identity, kind of professional development journey myself to learn more, to like, I just kind of was like, oh, this is the thing. These are the things that I like to do. I like to strategize with people, understand things and then, but I still like to design. then that's kind of

the flow of my journey. And then it was a year and half ago that I was like, oh, I have a signature offer and I want to help other people do it. it just serendipitously, I think that's the word, it just so happened that I knew people that had signature offers or were talking about signature offers, programs, and it was like, okay, these are

things that some people might need and it's not talked about that much because I guess people don't really think about it in that way a lot. I feel like, I mean, to talk about my actual journey, like I started doing, I was really excited, I got jobs and things like that and then I started hiding for some reason, like beginning of last year and made a

Shannon Mattern (11:52.557)

Mmm.

Aiza (11:58.135)

I felt like I needed to make an all encompassing offer. branding your business, branding your offer and also all the assets that go along with it. But by doing that, I almost diluted my own message. And also I was very unclear on what I was offering. So then I didn't know how to talk about anything. I didn't brand that offer. It was called the Brand Chef Special. It was mouthful, first of all. And also I just wasn't

behind it. And it took me like a good few months to realize, hold on a second, I had something already and I guess it was almost like a little bit of fear or a little bit of like, what if I go all in and it doesn't work or like something like that, that held me back. But then now I'm like, okay, I realized what that was. And yeah, so then that's when I again like reignited that like, okay yeah, this is what I'm doing and I'm gonna...

stick with it and talk about it more.

Shannon Mattern (13:00.927)

I want to dig deeper into that mindset or that experience that you had where you're like, said I had this thing, you said I started hiding. And then you're like, I made this thing that was like all the things that I thought, I don't know, you didn't say this, but like that I thought I should make. And then I realized that the things that I thought that I should be doing

Aiza (13:07.063)

Hmm.

Aiza (13:13.739)

Mm-hmm.

Aiza (13:24.778)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (13:30.003)

actually the thing that was working was the thing that I had all along. Tell me, tell me, I want to just dive deeper into that because I think so many of our listeners, they have this thing that they just love doing. They're, they do it really well and they like dismiss it almost because maybe it comes so easy to them or maybe it's not what they see other people doing. So what do you think?

Aiza (13:35.723)

Yeah.

Aiza (13:39.198)

Thank

Aiza (13:52.075)

Mm.

Shannon Mattern (13:58.856)

What do you think was like the before, right? Like, what was it when you're like, I started hiding or I wanted to, I thought that I needed to change what I was doing.

Aiza (14:11.189)

Yeah, I think it was... So first off, when I created the offer it was very exciting, I was very motivated and I branded it, it was very meta and it was very fun. And then I think it was... Yeah, it was a bit like, no one else is doing this. This is very new and different. Or at least it's not explained in the way or described in the way that I'm saying it is. And...

I should go back to my roots as a brand designer, as a general brand designer, because, and right there is the word should, right? It's like, if I folded this into branding the business with the offer branding, it's almost like, maybe that would be more palatable to people or something. Yeah. So that

Shannon Mattern (14:45.101)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Aiza (15:06.525)

guess was the feeling. was like the fear of people not understanding, the fear of going away from like what I do and then people not getting what I'm trying to do, and then the should. Like everybody else is a brand designer so I should be doing what brand designers are doing. Like I'm seeing other people, brand businesses, then know attack on websites as well and things like that and then just like okay maybe I should.

like have a big offer and it confused me, I guess, because like I said, I wasn't behind it. didn't really know or I didn't have the inspiration to understand how to talk about it. And I tried, I launched it twice as well. So it was it was just something there was a barrier there that had stopped me from

showing up and being like, this is the best thing you can have because I myself couldn't even describe why this is the best thing my clients can have even though the things I'm offering in it I still offer but it's just the way I'm presenting it was there was just a disconnect for myself.

Shannon Mattern (16:23.914)

Yeah. And I think like you just, you said it's because the word should was in there and that separates us from our authenticity. When we think we have to be a certain way or do things a certain way to create the outcomes that we want. And I've noticed for myself recently things where I'm like, I'm doing this thing this way because I think I should for some reason, or I think it's the right way, or I think it's.

Aiza (16:30.039)

Mm.

Aiza (16:51.287)

Mm.

Shannon Mattern (16:53.776)

the way that's gonna and then I and then I'm like and I'm not being myself. I'm performing for this reason and and it feels uncomfortable and there's a disconnect and it's it's draining to I would go like why not just work at a day job if I want to have to go be somebody different all day all day long. So then

Aiza (17:17.559)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (17:23.222)

Tell me more about the realization that like, I had it all along. like, what was the decision like to go back to it?

Aiza (17:38.449)

I so it took me quite a while. You know, I was hiding, I wasn't marketing myself. It was, you know, was just everything was slow. I was just, it was just a quiet period for me. I needed to go inwards and I guess what I did while I was in that mode was just like, okay, keep trucking along, keep doing what I should be doing. I should be launching, I should be marketing, I should be showing up in certain ways. And then

Shannon Mattern (17:51.456)

Yeah.

Aiza (18:07.903)

I think I just had that realization, like I was looking back and I was like, well, I'm still, like I still have to talk about offer branding because it's within that big package. But now I'm like splitting myself into loads of different ways because I don't know how to talk about it. So it just slowly dawned on me that, wait, remember when you...

first launched it and it was so exciting and people were excited, people were talking about it, you know, that's when the theming really came to life for me and people started noticing it a lot more because the offer oven has a bread and the oven theme as well, so people were recognizing it when I was talking about it and showing up for it. So I kind of made that realization and was like, okay, well,

do I want to go back and do the same thing? Do I still have that passion? And one of my clients, they were a returning client and they did the offer oven and they were coming to me to brand their offer and when I did that sprint that was the catalyst. It was like, I really enjoy doing this. Okay this is the sign that I need to like go back and simplify it for myself.

And also then that means that I can simplify the way I talk about things and what I talk about as well. So it all came from actually doing the work in the way that I envisioned.

Shannon Mattern (19:47.245)

I love that. Tell me about the Offer Oven. I want to know what is the Offer Oven? What was this process that you led this client through that got you so excited again that you're like, this is it. This is the thing. This is what I do really well and actually love doing. Emma, and I'm excited to talk about it to people.

Aiza (20:06.849)

Yeah.

Aiza (20:14.237)

Yeah, so the offer oven is a seven day branding sprint for your signature offer. So I have my process down where it's like we have a strategy call on day one, and then it's like every day, it's like the next day is the design concept, the brand concept, then it's all about getting the identity down and getting feedback and all of that. And I have a very accelerated process. All I ask for from my clients is that

they're around for feedback. It's asynchronous, because I always record videos for them to talk them through why, what I've done. because it's so, I guess the process is so involved and I, because the strategy session is also so involved, every decision that is made is made from the conversations that I've had with my clients. And that's key to make sure that

everyone's always on the same page at all times. I mean, I don't always get it right, but I do things really quickly. So that's, I guess, one of my superpowers. I love doing things quickly and getting things done and going with gut feelings as well. So yeah, so that's my process, strategy call, design concept, brand development, and then getting all the files ready for them to go and go launch their thing.

or go update and relaunch whatever they have in terms of their signature offer. So yeah, that's how I work with clients now.

Shannon Mattern (21:50.187)

One of the things that we talked about when I was on your podcast, I remember you mentioning, you're just like, I like to travel. I like to go do things. I like to have a lot of flexibility in my schedule. And that's one of the reasons that you mentioned that you love the Sprint model for your business. Can you tell me more about

Aiza (22:03.478)

Mm.

Shannon Mattern (22:16.904)

about like how that played into the decision to maybe not do this big whole giant project.

Aiza (22:21.911)

Yeah, I mean I think most of the people that I work with, they're either a soul opener or a small team, really they don't need a six month long project. There aren't loads of hoops to jump through, there's not a lot of people to talk to to make decisions. The people that I talk to are the decision makers, they're the ones that know their businesses inside and out. I mean how I came to it I guess was also a bit of

how I like to work, right? We talked about this on my podcast as well. It's like, as business owners, we get to dictate what we want to do and how we want to do things. Sure, there are industry standards, but the key thing is really to always be professional no matter what you're doing, always communicate and have that open communication with your client no matter what it is. It's just...

making sure the experience still feels really nice for both you and the client. And like you said, I like to travel. I'm currently in Seoul right now. I'm going to be in Hong Kong next week. it's just, I get to dictate my own schedule. And by having the sprints, I only work with one client at a time when I'm on the sprints. So then that gives me that like focused period. I know I need to work really, really hard this week.

And then, you know, I have a bit of free time and I can figure out what I want to do. Or if I have any ad hoc projects, I can fit that in outside of the outside of my sprints. So I guess it's it's a lot of trial and error. You know, it's been seven years when I first started. It was like, OK, I needed to go to physical offices to freelance, you know, when I was going through via the recruitment agencies. And then it was like, OK, what do I want to do? OK, I can work from home, work online.

I don't have to have my set hours. Like I said, I'm in Seoul, so most of the times my clients are asleep during my daytime. So I take my calls, client calls, in the evening my time. And that works for me because I'm a night owl and I don't have to wake up to an alarm, which is amazing. That was like the part when I moved here. was like, this is cool. So yeah, so little things like that and just starting to notice what you want.

Aiza (24:49.397)

to do and how you want to work and slowly trialing things and see what works for you. You know, it's not going to be perfect all the time. It's not going to be perfect when you first try and figure it out. So it's just about the willingness to be like, okay, what can I do that's different then if I don't want to have the normal nine to five model or I can't have this normal nine to five model.

What does that look like for me? It really depends. When are you productive? How are you productive? Where can you be productive? Things like that, just to be aware of.

Shannon Mattern (25:31.181)

Yeah, I, I, one of the things we talk about, on this podcast and in our web designer Academy program is creativity within constraints. And are those constraints like, out imposed upon you from the outside? Like maybe you have children in school that have to, you know, you have a schedule around like the other people in your family.

Aiza (25:41.91)

Mm.

Shannon Mattern (25:55.409)

or even constraints that you choose to put in place where you're like, these are my non-negotiables. Like I want to travel. I want to do these things. I want to spend my mornings this way or my evenings this way. like you get to just like you said, I love how you said it's like all about communication. It's all about like you get to decide what this business looks like. And then

Aiza (26:02.807)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (26:24.598)

communicate that to your clients, get creative with how you're going to communicate with your clients. And you can really make things work around whatever schedule you need to make them work. And yes, best laid plans, right? Life is going to happen around the schedule. Unexpected things are going to happen. Just like you and I, I was sick last week. We had this podcast interview to record and it's like,

Aiza (26:41.279)

Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (26:54.188)

you know, we, we re we rescheduled. And so there's just like things happen, but I think the biggest thing is like, people are like, I can't not work between these hours because my clients would expect me to be available. I'm like, your clients aren't your bosses. Like you get to, you get to design all of this. You get to tell them how things are happening and, and how things are going. there's that like shift out of like.

Aiza (27:13.953)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (27:23.56)

employee mindset into entrepreneur mindset that I think that you really beautifully did.

Aiza (27:26.858)

Yes.

Thank you. mean like you said though, there's still like ups and downs and it's like Oh do I reply to this email right now? And you know over the years I'm like, you know what? Well, I'm in Seoul so it's like doesn't matter what time I'm gonna be emailing you at 2 a.m. know And that's that's just the way it is So that it's like a mindset Reset this it's you know

Shannon Mattern (27:34.806)

Mm-hmm.

Aiza (27:57.705)

I was going to say when you were talking about it, it's like the boundary I set for the seven days is also because I know I work well under pressure. If I have a time constraint, I'm going to get the work done. And so that to me makes my work better, right? If a client comes to me and says, well, I can't work this way and you know, I need more time to mull things over. I'm not, I'm not necessarily going to be like, no.

never, I'm never gonna like be flexible for you and if I think it's a good fit, if I think, you know, we can still do good work from being and doing things that way, then I'm happy to flex, right? It's just whether or not you're flexing for good reason, rather than like putting yourself out and like, you know, taking on a red flag client or, you know, not being able to do things or like having to stay up till all

I'm glad the hours, don't know, whatever that may be. It's just knowing what you're doing it for. I think is also one of the big learnings when I started hiding. It's like, what am I doing it for? What do I want to do? How do I want to do things? being reflective. I think that was one of my mistakes. I was just charging forward. I made a decision and I was charging forward, charging forward, charging forward, and then didn't reflect and didn't look at.

what this change and this decision had done for me in my business. And then once I sat down to do that, it was like, okay. So now I'm more conscious of like, okay, well, if you make a decision, let's reflect back on it, see what it's doing. Is it doing the right things for you? And yeah, so that was my learnings.

Shannon Mattern (29:48.341)

Hmm. I want to ask you about your pricing journey because we talk, this is the profitable web designer. We talk a lot about pricing mindset, pricing strategy, money mindset, the places like the evolution. So what's your evolution been like with your pricing?

Aiza (29:52.759)

Mm-hmm.

Aiza (30:08.265)

my gosh, where do we start? So when I was freelancing, it was a day rate because that was how the industry worked. And then I don't know if it was because I start, you know, when I was doing my professional development, like learning about branding, learning about brand strategy and like following designers and things like that. And then I started to see people doing things different.

Shannon Mattern (30:11.153)

Hahaha.

Aiza (30:37.269)

So it's, I mean, I had already started pricing by project.

you know, in the back of my mind it was still like, okay, how many hours am I going to work on it? How much is this worth? Like what type of a job is it? But I still said, very quickly said, okay, I'm only pricing by project, not by hour or day rate. Because if I give you my day rate, people would be scared to work with me because it's like, well, you know, I work fast and I'm good at what I do. So, you know,

people can bulk at that price. So then I started pricing by project. And then when I started to, I guess, productize my offer. So I also offer branding sprints for branding businesses. was the thing that I did first. It was called the Brand Kitchen, or it's still called the Brand Kitchen. I still do it. So that was when I started experimenting with like, how small can this job be? How big?

How long can this take? And then that was when I had, I guess, transparent pricing. It was like, okay, you have a branding sprint. This is how much it is. And that's, that's it. Right. This, these are the deliverables you get. This is the process. This is the scope. And this is the package that everyone gets. Whereas before it was like, I'll, I'll take it away and then think about it and then give you a project price. Now, when people come to me for branding, as my price is on

is on my website already for my services.

Shannon Mattern (32:21.523)

So how did it feel to you? How did it feel to you to just be like, this is the price, take it or leave it?

Aiza (32:21.781)

Until years.

Aiza (32:29.759)

I mean, there's still a bit of when I first did it and when I, you know, it was still a bit of imposter syndrome or like, it's like, but what if, but what if, what if someone's like, it's not worth that? Or what if someone like, you know, decides to like just divide things out or it's like tries to like negotiate with me? It's like, what if I don't have typography or what if I don't do this part and don't do that part? And I think again, it comes back down to boundaries.

Shannon Mattern (32:38.282)

Yeah.

Aiza (32:59.497)

and what boundaries you want to keep. And for my branding sprints, it was, you know, this is the baseline. This is the foundation, right? You can't really take anything more away from it. If you take more away from it, it's just not going to work. So that's where I built that package, built that offer from. So there's always scope to add and work with, continually work with me.

But if you wanted to do branding with me, this is the baseline. So I think that's where I came from. Like what's the simplest, most foundational things that people need when it comes to branding and then everything else can come later.

Shannon Mattern (33:44.652)

And I think when you were saying that, it was reminding me of a conversation I had with one of our students on our live strategy call yesterday where she was like, really like this project the way that I have it built. I can either have the client do the content themselves to get the price down for them, or I can do it. And she's like,

Aiza (34:10.689)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (34:13.503)

But it's not going to be successful if the client does it. So what do I do? And I'm like, you don't give the client the option to, like, it's just not an option. And I think that what the shift there, and you described it really well, is like, you have to stand in your expertise as the designer or the web designer or the developer. And you know,

Aiza (34:21.653)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (34:42.815)

That's what you, it sounds like you did where you're like, without these foundational elements, this project will not be successful. So they're not negotiable. And it's not like you're saying it like that, right? But you're just like, I am the expert here. I'm the leader. I want the best outcome for you. And in order for us to get the best outcome for you, these are all of the components of this. And

If someone doesn't want all of those things, this isn't the right offer for you or we're not the right fit. And it's not in anyone's best interest for you to take on projects like that. And I know sometimes people are like, but I need the money. And I'm like, I'm never going to tell you to turn down money, but at what cost? You have to think about the cost of the money.

Aiza (35:35.979)

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mean, I've certainly had times where I'm like, okay, I'm just going to take this project. Like no matter what, right? Like there are those times in business where you decide I just need it. So I will bend over backwards and do things weird and all of that jazz just to get the job. But, you know, as business owners, it's also a privilege when we are in the position where we can be like, okay, well, this is how we do things.

So for example, like I had a client a while back come to me and was like, oh I've already done brand strategy, so I don't really need that anymore. But then for me, I was like, yeah, but I need it. I need to go through it with you so that I can understand. If I don't understand, I won't be able to deliver a good product for you, good end result for you. So it's making sure that you can still deliver and

give the outcome that you're promising to your client and not compromising to the point where, like you said, someone on your call yesterday is like, well, if you don't have the content or you've gotten your client to the content and then the website turns out like, it's not that great because of the content, then, you know, the client can be like, well, you you didn't really do a good job when you know that it's like, well, well, actually it's the content that's not great. Not, not the website itself, like whatever it may be. So

it's understanding that and like you said it's like knowing again where your boundaries are and you know it takes time to figure that out and also experimenting again to figure out where your comfort level is gonna be. I mean there's always gonna be a bit of like push and pull and like being a little bit uncomfortable like is this right for me, is it not right for me but if you don't try

You don't know. And I think one of the great examples is when I started taking payment upfront. It was like, whoa, you know, normally it's you do the job and you give an invoice and then they pay you in 30 days, maybe 60. And it's just like, and then I did, it was just, again, communication, talking to the client and be like, this is the way I work. Like I take 50%.

Aiza (38:00.361)

upfront or I take the full payment upfront or I take a deposit to lock your date in, whatever it may be, whatever your boundary may be. And sometimes clients push back and it's up to you whether or not you think this client is worth the flexibility for again. So yeah, so that's my pricing journey.

Shannon Mattern (38:22.699)

I love that. And I'm curious about your podcasting journey. So what was the catalyst for you starting the podcast? who was it for? And why do you do it?

Aiza (38:41.219)

I think the catalyst was I was at a point where like I was stuck in terms of marketing. I'm like, I don't know what to do. Like, I don't know what to post. And I kind of, still there in that stage because again, it's the shoulds, right? I'm, I was always like, I should be posting more. I should be creating more content. And I think that was a time when I was like, you know what? I just need to get my reps in.

Shannon Mattern (39:00.905)

Mm-hmm.

Aiza (39:11.063)

and also get my voice out there. And it's nearly a year old, I think? Or is it two? Oh my god, I think it's two. Anyway, what I did was actually, I just went on Instagram Live as my podcast episode. So then that meant that I couldn't stop, I couldn't be afraid of...

you know, saying the wrong thing or not knowing what to say. was just go live and just do it basically. And in terms of what it is, the premise of my podcast is to help business owners understand what branding can do for them and think about it in a way where they can use it as a tool. think a lot of times business owners say, branding and then I'm done.

I don't have to touch it again. just have my templates. I have my website and off I go. But actually it's a lot more, I guess, all encompassing than that because it permeates into the communication between clients. Like what is the messaging? Like how do you want to come across? And there's so many different facets. And I think people think the visual side of it is the only

thing. And of course, like that's again, the tool. But I think just being able to think about your business in certain ways, in different ways is how is what I wanted my podcast to be. And I also love using food analogies just to explain my point to help people understand it a little bit better. And hopefully there are some nuggets in there where you can, you know, have

Actionable things to take away if not actual things just things to mull over and like think about For their business and for their brand so that it can help them Set the boundaries and figure out what they want to do and how they want to do things and you know yeah, Brandon could just Be in so many different parts of your business. It's almost as important as Business strategy. It's almost like the business is like

Aiza (41:28.265)

operational and the brand is like the feeling and everything behind it. So yeah, just wanted to spread that message.

Shannon Mattern (41:38.936)

I love how you were like, guess what? I'm starting this thing and the way that I'm doing it is by going live on Instagram and it's just happening. I'm currently in like for the past 10 years of running this business. It's been like email marketing. It's been speaking at other people's events. It's been a lot of relationship building.

Aiza (41:44.759)

you

Shannon Mattern (42:06.783)

being on other people's podcasts, a lot of that collaborative relationship marketing. And then I have a podcast, which obviously I love podcasting so much. I love to just get to have cool conversations with cool people and just talk about my journey and tell stories about our students and all of those things. And I'm not on social media at all, anywhere ever.

Aiza (42:30.262)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (42:36.427)

And it has been, and it's because of the shoulds, right? It's like, I feel like if I am on this platform, then I have to create content and perform in this certain way for the content to perform well here and all of these things. And I have had my client success coordinator, Erica Nash, who

Aiza (42:42.7)

Hmm.

Shannon Mattern (43:02.923)

is a co-host on this podcast for our income report episodes. And a couple of other colleagues really encouraged me to start going on TikTok, but like being myself on TikTok and not like trying to follow some TikTok formula and algorithm. And it has felt so, I don't know, awkward because there's still that part of me that's like, if I'm gonna do it, I need to do it correctly.

Aiza (43:16.151)

you

Shannon Mattern (43:32.684)

and write and not be cringy and not risk getting people being like, who does she think, like, who is this girl? You know, and so it's been like very challenging to get myself to do it. And I'm, like 85 % there. I've got some recorded. And then I find myself being like, well, how do you do captions?

Aiza (43:33.013)

Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (44:00.17)

I need to do it right. And then I'm just like, I'm just trying to avoid the discomfort of the feedback that I'm going to get or that I did it wrong or whatever. And I love that you just kind of threw yourself into the deep end, so to speak, or just like, you know what, I'm just going to like do this. And it's very encouraging. I appreciate hearing that because I, and this kind of ties back to what you talked about branding our brand.

Aiza (44:10.465)

Yeah, my gosh, they're so similar.

Aiza (44:20.279)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (44:29.841)

Vibe is the third space. Like the Web Designer Academy is the place that you go. That's your home away from home where everybody knows your name. It's like our cheers. It's our central perk. It's like you can come here and fully be yourself and you can come in and celebrate the big success and nobody's gonna be like jealous of you or you can.

Aiza (44:32.576)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (44:55.581)

share that you're going through a really hard time and no one's gonna judge you to be like, sucks for you. Like I'm doing worse and like you shouldn't be upset about that. Or nobody like you can just be your full self. You know how when you like talk to a friend about something in your business that's like so exciting and they're like, huh, I'm really happy for you. But their eyes kind of glaze over like a donut because like they don't get it. Like, that's the vibe. And so the advice that I was

Aiza (45:04.791)

Hmm.

Aiza (45:16.337)

you

Shannon Mattern (45:25.771)

given was that like our brand, that brand value was not coming through in the buttoned up way that I've been creating content following other people's formulas in terms of like the webinar and the this and the that and all of the shoulds about marketing. And so I'm being told that like TikTok is a place where you can actually be yourself. And I'm like,

Aiza (45:32.289)

Mm-hmm.

Aiza (45:38.699)

Yeah.

Aiza (45:42.751)

Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (45:54.142)

Okay, so my challenge is to beat myself when I hit record and talk to the green dot. Yeah. So I just appreciate hearing how you kind of were just like, I know that it kind of started with some shoulds, like you want to be more more visible. But then it's turned into like, I actually really enjoy the mission and the reason why I'm doing this.

Aiza (45:57.655)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. How do you do that?

Aiza (46:14.387)

Yes. Yeah.

Aiza (46:23.339)

Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (46:24.787)

because you're like, want business owners to understand that their brand is a powerful piece of the overall business strategy. That's important and it's important to consider and it can have a positive influence in so many ways. And for me, I was talking to my client success coordinator, Erica, and she was like, I heard you speak at an event and

you were the person I was looking for and I joined your program and it changed my life. And I'm like, I'm afraid to like be on TikTok. I'm taking that opportunity away from other people by like staying in fear of what will someone think of me when it's like, no, what if someone never finds me?

Aiza (47:05.003)

You

Aiza (47:09.089)

Yeah.

Yes. Yep. Yep.

Aiza (47:21.483)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. What if that is the catalyst that they needed to do something about their business and about their life? And I think I have a parallel thing that I'm going through right now. So what point I wanted to make was when you were talking through that in terms of my podcasting journey, it's like two years in and I love talking on my podcast. I love talking to people because I also interview people.

Shannon Mattern (47:25.973)

Yeah. Uh-huh.

Aiza (47:50.559)

on my podcast and it's so much fun. It's being able to also absorb other people's thoughts as well and how it can influence my business. So it's all about getting the reps in and getting the right reps in and again, evaluating. So, know, the reps that the decision that I made, I was putting the reps in, I wasn't getting the results and because I was very unclear of what I wanted, whereas

during the podcast I knew I wanted more visibility and it was, it just so happened I guess that I chose the right medium for myself. It was like okay well I'm gonna try it, I'm gonna do it and over time it was like oh yeah I can do this. Like it was uncomfortable at first but then it was like okay yeah this is the way that I can get through to people that I can talk about things and you know I can talk about branding for ages so it's a fun little outlet as well.

to talk about something that I love, that I'm passionate about. So, you you think, podcasting, you're in design, like why are you doing that? But, you know, there's a reason to it. And then the parallel that I was going to talk about is that I have a mindset block about showing my work on social media. There's just something that I don't know what it is, that it's just blocked and

It comes back to the shoulds. So actually I was doing my kind of monthly planning and I was thinking, okay, let's brainstorm. What other ways are there to showcase what I can do? That's not the, you should post on Instagram three times a week and show your work and show your past client work. Like what other ways are there? I haven't figured it out yet, but this has been a block for years and

still haven't gotten through it. I don't know what it's gonna look like but we shall see. That's where I'm at.

Shannon Mattern (49:56.035)

Usually, we have a program as part of our web designer academy. It's called the Next Level Mastermind. And people think that the Next Level Mastermind is so intense and like, it's where you go when you want to build an agency in a multi-six-figure business. And it is absolutely not that. It is exactly what you just said. There is something that I think that I should be doing that I'm not doing.

Aiza (50:15.543)

Mm.

Shannon Mattern (50:26.132)

for unknown reasons, foot on the gas, foot on the brake. And it's deconstructing that. It's getting to the root of like, why do I think I should be doing this? Should I even be doing this? If the answer is yes, I do want to do this, then what is that underlying subconscious self-protective thing that is happening?

that's creating the action of don't do the thing. It's dangerous. And instead of putting our foot more on the gas, it's taking your foot off of the brake. And so for me, I was talking to my right-hand woman, Erica. I call her my client success coordinator. She's on the team. She's been on the team for four years. And I was like, you know,

Aiza (51:00.225)

Mm-hmm.

Aiza (51:18.647)

Thank

Shannon Mattern (51:24.018)

My this I've already excavated this thing so I know what it is. It's when I was in fifth grade, I was in a gifted class and we were bused to a different school and we got off the bus and we like went to this one classroom and then we were on a different schedule than all the other kids. And when it was lunchtime, we would cut the line to go get our lunch.

Aiza (51:29.111)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (51:51.455)

and then sit at our own little table for all the kids from the school district that were in this program. And the kids hated us. Like the kids at that school, we got bullied, we got made fun of because we were like the outcasts, like kids who had different rules and we got to cut the line and all of this stuff. And like that has followed me to where I'm like, I don't ever want to stand out in a bad

Aiza (52:08.055)

Hmm, different. Hmm. Yeah.

Aiza (52:15.862)

Hmm.

Aiza (52:20.363)

Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (52:20.998)

way. And so there, that's what going on to TikTok for the first time feels like it feels like walking in front of that cafeteria and cutting in line and all eyes on you being like, we're just we're waiting for the moment to like tell you

Aiza (52:31.191)

Yeah.

Aiza (52:37.525)

Yeah. Yeah. And then you also, when you're on TikTok doing it, you need to be doing it a certain way so that people won't notice you. You won't stand up. Exactly.

Shannon Mattern (52:47.348)

To stay safe. Yeah, say, yes, exactly. Like maybe don't say the thing that you think is going to like have people think anything about you. And so those experiences get laid down in your subconscious and your subconscious is like, we got to protect you. So we're going to create really noble reasons for you to never do this thing that is very scary.

Aiza (53:00.811)

Yeah.

Aiza (53:04.577)

Yep.

Aiza (53:07.979)

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Shannon Mattern (53:16.434)

And so it's about identifying that and then like reminding myself like, you know what? I'm not 10. I'm 46. I have way more tools to deal with people who maybe say mean things. Yeah, it might sting, but also like they're not my people and remind myself that like, it's more important for the people who need to hear it for them to hear it. Like I have to have courage.

Aiza (53:23.967)

Hahaha

Aiza (53:43.841)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (53:46.579)

and like, it's okay. Like when the bad thing happens, I'll get through it. It's not, I don't need to prevent it. so those experiences that you just described, like you're like, I'm going through this thing. It's like, these things come from like those places and we have to create safety for ourselves to move through it. and, you know,

Aiza (53:58.945)

Yeah.

Aiza (54:08.363)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (54:15.746)

Maybe the shoulds even coming from one of those places. Maybe you shouldn't have to share your work. Like, who knows what it is?

Aiza (54:18.903)

Definitely.

yeah maybe I don't need to like why do I need to who says that I need to do that right yeah and I was journaling earlier and when you were talking about your experience it also brought up like okay yeah I have the fear of I think it's getting judged like I I'm the older sister I grew up always being the really competent like independent I can you know I'm

Shannon Mattern (54:27.32)

Who says that you need to? Yeah.

Aiza (54:52.437)

I'm good, I, you know, everything is good over here. Everything is always good over here. And I think, you know, I don't like rocking the boat. Like it's like, I'm just going to be here doing my own thing, kind of hiding in plain sight, almost. It's like I'm here, but I don't need to draw attention to myself and what I can do because I'm just going to be here being the competent.

Shannon Mattern (54:54.057)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (54:57.418)

Same.

Aiza (55:20.263)

one that people can rely on and that's it. And I think mine stems from that and yes, it's sitting in that uncomfortable space, I think, because for me I need to action that, like, you know, the post and like designing something to post out there or putting the thing out there and like, I just need to figure out what that block is and see if, you know, posting on something, posting my work is still

the right choice. Like you said, like, you know, you know that TikTok is somewhere where you can be yourself and show up. It's about getting those reps in and seeing if that is the right choice. And I think for me, because I've been doing this for so long and having the shoulds and trying to show, like forcing myself to show my work in that certain way for so long, I'm finally getting to the point where I'm like, maybe this is not the right way.

at all. What other things can I do? Maybe I need to explore that more. Maybe I will come back to, I need to show my work on socials. But I need that space, like you said, just take the break off and then see if anything moves for me. So yeah.

Shannon Mattern (56:40.426)

Yeah, yeah. So many of us are like, oh, I feel confident and competent, but what about when other people see this? Are they going to think differently? And it's so subjective. There is no right or wrong. It's like, think about

Aiza (56:54.389)

Mm.

Aiza (56:58.167)

Yeah.

Aiza (57:01.685)

Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (57:09.436)

It's like if it's right for the client, it doesn't matter if you like it.

Aiza (57:14.613)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the thing is, like, my clients love it, right? Like, they're so excited and all of that. And then, like, I'm just there like, nope. I can't do this and I don't know why. But we'll see.

Shannon Mattern (57:20.767)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (57:25.194)

And I think too, I think that there's, I think that there's, I think it's, it's an interesting exploration to be like, oh, I think I should be doing this. So how do I like just force myself versus what else could be true?

Aiza (57:37.365)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yes, I mean it goes back to when we were talking about money, when we were talking about client boundaries and how we want to work. It's the same for marketing and showing up and all of that. Like this one thing for me it's like well maybe it's not the right thing. It was when I was like I think I need to have this big package. Well actually maybe you don't have to and maybe you can pull back and go back to what you were doing before.

Shannon Mattern (57:46.697)

Mm-hmm.

Aiza (58:10.131)

So it's just finding that and exploring that and giving yourself space to do that. And I think the first thing to do is also definitely again reflecting and recognizing that it is something to explore rather than like, I'm just going to go full steam ahead. If you're going to try it, try it. But then again, come back to it and reflect on it. Like that's the biggest lesson I learned last year when I went through the process that I did.

Shannon Mattern (58:39.59)

my gosh, so good. I could talk to you forever, but we're like even past our time. Can you tell I just have two more questions. First, tell our listeners where they can go to find you connect with you listen to the podcast, check out your website and just get in your world.

Aiza (58:43.191)

Yeah.

Aiza (59:00.885)

Yeah, so I am Studio Koya everywhere and that's C-O-Y-A. I'm mostly active on Instagram, you know, I'm in the DMs if you want to chat like I'm always up for a good chat. My podcast is called Nourish Your Brand and then in terms of my branding offers they are on my website Studio Koya.

Shannon Mattern (59:22.78)

Amazing. So my last question for you is what belief about yourself did you have to change to get to where you are today?

Aiza (59:32.497)

my goodness, what a deep question to ask at the end.

Aiza (59:42.325)

I think

Okay, yeah, I think it is that I can do things the way I want to do things. I'm still working on it, but I have done a lot over the seven years in business in figuring out how I want to do things. are still things that I might want to change, but the process of knowing that and understanding that meant that I could

make decisions for how I want to work, what I want to do, what I want my business to look like. Yeah, so I think it's that mindset.

Shannon Mattern (01:00:26.108)

I love that so much. So that is a perfect place to wrap up this episode. I'm going to link up everything that we talked about in the show notes so you can swipe up on whatever app you're listening on and head over there. thank you so much for being here. This was awesome.

Aiza (01:00:44.673)

Thank you so much for having me. It was such a great conversation.