#136 – The Real Reason Clients Say No (Hint: It’s Not Your Prices) with Stephanie Hayes of Fully Booked

Shannon Mattern (00:02.155)

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Profitable Web Designer Podcast. Today I am joined by Stephanie Hayes, owner of Fully Booked VA and the head coach for the Fully Booked VA community and coaching members. And Stephanie has been building successful businesses and guiding entrepreneurs as a high level business coach and consultant for over 20 years. So when it comes to creating a thriving, sustainable business, she knows her stuff. So Stephanie, welcome to the show.

Stephanie Hayes (00:31.426)

Thank you so much for having me. It's so great to chat.

Shannon Mattern (00:34.409)

Yeah, I'm really excited to have you here, not only just because there's so much overlap between the world of VAs and tech VAs and web designers, like especially when it comes to like getting booked out and pricing and setting boundaries and all of those things. And also like the lines for web designers often get blurred for like, you know, things that they're doing in their business, like

consulting, freelancing, and high level strategy stuff. So I'm excited to dig into all of that with you today. But before we get into all of that, Stephanie, I would just love to start off by hearing just about your business journey over the past 20 years and what led you to the head coach and CEO of Fully Booked VA. What's your origin story?

Stephanie Hayes (01:23.886)

thought we only had an hour.

Shannon Mattern (01:25.099)

Yeah, exactly right.

Stephanie Hayes (01:29.24)

So I am a dyed in the wool entrepreneur and I have been around doing this for a very long time. I started out my career in, I did a degree in communication and new media and ended up working in the software world in the software startup in the research park at the university and then moved along into sort of the dot-com world and then into technology consulting.

And eventually ended up starting up my own consulting business with a partner, grew that to a few million dollars in revenue. And then I started a software startup myself. And that's still going to this day, 14 years later. And then along the way, I was kind of like, you know, an independent consultant and, know, kind of bouncing around here and there. And then what I really got interested in was the lean startup and startup, the startup world and, and ended up.

having a lot of friends and referrals who were asking me to help them with their business model. that's where I kind of fell into business model design. And that's really like I'm a business architect by trade. I consulted to large organizations doing organizational design. And with these small business owners, it's business model design.

was an entrepreneur mentor at the university and their entrepreneurship program and just kind of got steeped in the world of small business and startups. that's sort of the work I kind of hung my own shingle and was working as a coach and strategist for small business owners and sole entrepreneurs. I actually have a degree from like after I graduated, I went to the other university and I got like an actual

diploma in internet marketing in 1998. So I've been in this like internet world for a very, very long time. So whatever corner of the internet world you're in, I have been there and I've done it. have seen it. Eventually I just kind of hung my own shingle and I was working with all of my independent owners and came across Gina Harky who used to own the business that I now own and

Stephanie Hayes (03:43.04)

She was my client and we worked together on redesigning her business and launched Fully Booked VA back in I think 2020, 2019, somewhere around there. And then, you know, she went off to have a baby and I was running the company for a little while and then we came back together. So a few years later, I had started to get really, really interested in the whole world of buying and renovating and selling businesses.

Shannon Mattern (03:57.675)

you

Stephanie Hayes (04:08.786)

And she had gotten to that sort of point in her life cycle where she was like, I think I'm done. And I said, give it to me. And I bought it two years ago. So that's how I became the CEO and owner of Fully Booked VA. I also have another, you know, the other side of my business where I work with small business owners who are looking forward to an eventual exit. And so I spend a lot of time where

backing out of the exit strategy to figure out how we build a growth model. So, you know, got my fingers in a lot of different pies. do corporate consulting. I own this business. I have the strategy consulting and my software company. I'm a pretty, I would say serial, but it's kind of parallel entrepreneur. So here we are.

Shannon Mattern (04:59.547)

Everything. Yeah. Like that journey is fascinating and everything you do, I'm like, you must not feel like you ever work with like all of those interesting, fascinating, like things that you do. Like it just sounds so fun.

Stephanie Hayes (05:17.486)

It is so fun and I, you know, I, I'm busy for sure. Like I work a lot and you know, a lot of people are saying, Oh, you work too much. I'm like, but I really like it. Like, yes, I want some time back for sure. But I get to, I get to just, you know, when you work in the startup world, when you work like the.com, I think the.com era was honestly the, the hugest lesson for me. I was still in my early twenties, mid twenties, but I was.

incubating businesses. worked for a big internet technology startup or big internet technologies company and we were incubating businesses inside that organization. And at like 26 years old, I was responsible for building these businesses and these were funded. These were like $6 million, you know, dot com startups. And so I am immersed and died in the wool in the internet world and

I've seen it evolve from like 1998 all the way through to today. And honestly, what I'll tell you is that not a lot has changed sort of fundamentally. We just now have more people and like more tools and better advancements and innovations and that sort of thing. But at the heart of it, internet marketing is pretty much the same concepts, just new ways of doing it.

Shannon Mattern (06:37.027)

I love that and I want to dig into that because what I find, so you and I met through Gina Horky. and Gina and I met, I don't know when in the late 2010s, so probably 2017, 2018, 2019, I don't know if I pitched, reached out, cold reached out to her first or she reached out to me, but we saw that at the time we had some overlap in the audiences that we served.

Stephanie Hayes (06:44.674)

Yes.

Shannon Mattern (07:05.715)

At that time, I was teaching web designers and entrepreneurs how to DIY their websites. Her business was called Horky Handbook at the time, and she was teaching people how to start their own VA businesses. And I think the Horky Handbook was her handbook for how to run the business. And we thought, there's some natural overlap of our audiences here. Let's partner, let's collaborate. And so.

I think we were on each other's podcasts. We may have done some like special trainings for each other's audiences. And so I am a passionate advocate of relationship marketing, like, and so I'm curious because you have, like you said, you've been through the whole era of, you know, the

the late nineties.com, you know, and I was there too. I was, I was in college during that time and, you know, getting my first jobs in the early two thousands in marketing. So I've seen that evolution as well. What, where do you see the intersection of like actual real relationships with people and quote unquote internet marketing? And where's, do you see those working together and overlapping?

Stephanie Hayes (08:27.95)

It's never been anything but relationships. That is marketing, right? It's never been anything other than that. My number one strategy for marketing is relationship development, is partnership development, is collaboration. One of my most significant partners is my biggest direct competitor. We're besties, and we develop products together. So I would say...

Shannon Mattern (08:30.505)

Thank you.

Shannon Mattern (08:46.079)

same.

Stephanie Hayes (08:54.4)

Marketing is all about building relationships, whether you're building relationships face to face, or you're building a relationship through email, through, and when you think about it from that perspective, it changes the content that you create, right? It changes the way that you engage with your audience. It's not just a push out by email. It's like, how can I actually create a relationship? And I think that's one of the things that our audience says about the emails that we put out. We've really pared them down to be very,

like very relationship focused and people are very loyal to us. Even if they never buy anything from us, they're like, I just like to read your emails because it feels like you know me. So everything about marketing is about creating a relationship and I don't care what strategy you're talking about, that's what it's about. If it's not, it's not gonna be very successful.

Shannon Mattern (09:44.331)

Yeah. so a couple of threads there that were really interesting to me, but I want to circle back to what was it about Philly booked VA that made you say, this is a business like that I want to take over. You know, what was it about that?

Stephanie Hayes (10:03.362)

I had a relationship, right? So I had worked with Gina to design this business from the ground up, right? She used to just sell courses and she had come to me and said, I want to do something a little bit bigger and a little bit more engaged. so we turned it into a membership. We turned it into like a coaching platform. And our focus is really, really on building business, right? It is not...

People hear about, you have a VA business, so you teach them how to do technical things. No, no, that's not our business. Our business is teaching you how to build a business. And we partner up with all sorts of different partners who can teach them those deeper skills if they want it. But one of the things that I really, really try to instill in our VAs and freelancers and the folks that come into our world is that the first thing they think is, I have to get more skills. And I'm like, no, you don't.

You've got skills you can sell right now. And that's just an excuse for them to avoid going and doing like the client getting stuff because that's the part that scares them. And when we break it down for them and make them realize how simple it can be, and they actually believe it and try it, then they realize that that's not the scary part and that they actually have skills and they have stuff that they can sell right now. Like you could go out tomorrow.

and start selling your services because there's something that you can provide. If you're a grown ass adult, you've got something that you can provide to people that has value. And what they need is that ability to sort of see that and have someone help them see that. And there's so much of this mindset stuff that goes on. So we have some skills courses that we do give them, but it's more along the lines of like project management or email management, but we're not in the business of.

creating that kind of stuff anymore. Like those are legacy and those we've had around for a little while. But we're really, really doubling down on the idea that we're teaching you how to build a business. And then all the other stuff that you want to fill in, if you want to specialize, if you want to get more training, here's our partners. You can go off and you can work with them. we like, have a lot of crossover between us and our direct competitor. She does something else. She has a slightly different business and she

Shannon Mattern (11:57.835)

you

Stephanie Hayes (12:23.104)

you know, provide something different. And we'll have a lot of people that are in both those communities. So we're really trying to build that brand that around, you know, building a business, not going out and getting a bunch of like certifications or technical skills. And that's just like a, that's just delaying your success, right?

Shannon Mattern (12:43.224)

Yeah, I call that procrastinating learning. it's truly, yeah, it's truly web designers do this too. It's like, I'm not ready. I need to know everything there is about everything and I need to choose my platform and I need to this, that and the other. And, you know,

Stephanie Hayes (12:45.934)

I love that, yeah.

Thank

Shannon Mattern (13:00.807)

I always say it's like you're not being paid to already know how to do the thing. You're being paid to figure out how to do the thing and to do the thing for someone else so that they don't have to think about it or figure it out. Like it's okay. You don't need to already know this. Like, so you just have to know that you can figure it out. Like that's like the biggest, the biggest shift and skill that you can have. Yeah.

Stephanie Hayes (13:20.216)

Yeah.

Stephanie Hayes (13:24.494)

Here's the big myth is that a lot of folks will sort of come into our world and say, oh, but I don't have these skills or I don't have the things on my resume that this person is asking for. And I was like, you know what? People will hire you based on who you are. They're always going to hire you based on who you are, not what you had on your resume, not the laundry list of skills. So apply for everything.

Right, just apply for everything because when I go to my networking group of business owners who, and I go to them and I say, what do you look for in someone that you're gonna hire to help you? Not a single one of them says, I want them to have all these deep technical skills in this and this and that and blah, blah. No, all the things they're saying are, I want them to be confident, I want them to make me feel like they have.

things covered, I want them to be a great communicator and have a good sense of humour and like, it's all the stuff about who you are. So that's what they're gonna hire you on, it's about how you make them feel. So we really coach our students to go into those conversations, own those conversations and that's the number one thing that they're looking for is like, can I put my trust in you to just like...

take this off my plate and run with it. I don't want someone who's gonna come to me asking me every single question about every single thing. And I know, I know you're not gonna have all the skills. I know you're not gonna know how to do everything right off the bat. I'm fine to teach you things, like that's fine for me, but please don't be someone who makes more work for me.

Shannon Mattern (15:00.975)

so good. So good. So we were chatting a little bit before I hit record about some shifts that you're making in terms of like how you're structuring the program and your teachings and just how you even think about like running this business in general. And we talked about like the difference between

freelancing and consulting and things like that. So can you share more about like, kind of shifts that you're seeing in the market today and why you're you've decided to like go in this direction with your programs?

Stephanie Hayes (15:40.238)

Yeah, for sure, for sure. Things are really different now than they were 12 months ago, than they were 24 months ago. Last year was a really, really transitional year for a lot of people who sell what we sell. And part of it was economic, part of it was fear, part of it was like external circumstances, but we can't sell the same thing in the same way to the same people anymore. And so we've seen our demographics shift a lot.

Shannon Mattern (15:47.764)

Yes.

Stephanie Hayes (16:07.022)

And we went from sort of hashtag boss babes and like side hustle, stay at home moms to, um, which is all totally legitimate, but now we have this, this really interesting demographic of women, mostly women who are sort of like, I'm turning 50 this year. And so sort of in that. Like 35 to 60, like we've got some retirees who are amazing, but all of these women are coming in and they're like, I just.

like it's almost a swan song for them, right? Like they really, they want to come in and they want to have more meaning. They want to do something. They want to prove to themselves that they can do this. And there are just a really great group to work with because they're not hand-wringers, right? Like they come in and they're just like, okay, I'm going to get into this. I'm going to be open to coaching. I'm going to be asking the right questions and I'm going to go build this thing for myself. And it's really refreshing. However, we can't sell in the same way that we did before. And

just I think attitudes have changed to what people buy online now. And it's very hard to continue to get the revenue from just standalone sales funnels. And yes, I know there's gonna be all the bros out there who are like, oh yeah, yeah, and stuff like that, blah, whatever, like do your thing. If you're successful doing that and you wanna keep doing it, but what I have noticed by being in those groups is that the conversation is always about the front end of the funnel.

always about the ads, always about like how successful and I keep asking the question, what are you actually delivering on the back end of those? And so that's what means something to me. So it's so important to me is do we have a really good quality service that we are like killing it with our people? And we spent a lot of time last year building our community and building our

our offerings so that they were really, really valuable. The coaching is incredible. Like, like everything is just so beautiful inside the community. We have a very, very loyal members. So now we have to back out of that and figure out how do we sell that differently? Um, one of the things that I've really noticed is that we have this, these sort of three different groups that land with us. And yes, there's a lot of people who sort of end up at the VA space. And for us, a VA is sort of like,

Stephanie Hayes (18:19.554)

you know, it's not that I'm just doing admin work, but it's more that I'm just, working remotely and I am helping you, you know, build the functioning of your business. But then we didn't really have a container for those people who show up that are a little bit like further along where they already have a set, you know, designers or website developers or copywriters or someone who is like already sort of established their skillset, but they think the only way to get in is to start as a VA. But there's this like cognitive dissonance between

that term because they don't really identify that way, but they still want the education on how to start building this business and being on their own. So that group, and then there's another group. have fewer of these guys, but I have such a huge network of these guys that I want an offering for them. The people who have been in the working world for a long time who have these more advanced skill sets and lots of really great experience, but they want to go out on their own as a consultant.

So I want an offering for those guys too, because I work with those people privately, but I really want to shift that business out of that, that area and really focus on the exits and have a way to serve those same people. Those three groups need slightly different things and they need a different approach and they need, you know, different material and that sort of thing. There's kind of a fourth group too, which are agencies. So I have some VAs that are actually now stepping into or are

by default building an agency because they had to. I have one lady who started in April and by June she was fully booked out. And then she started hiring people into her business. I think we started her like at the end of last year because she's just got this golden egg. Like she's just figured out this niche and this you know, this relationship with somebody who just basically feeds her new clients.

Shannon Mattern (19:52.107)

Thank

Stephanie Hayes (20:14.54)

So she's constantly bringing on new clients. So we've been working on how to build out an agency. We do have a course on agencies, but I want to create a container for those folks who are really moving into the agency world because it's very different than doing the service yourself. So that's what we're moving into this year is a full rebrand where we are going to become just fully booked. So we will be be fully booked.com. And then those pathways.

people will end up in those pathways based on where they're at. So do they feel they're more at this level where they're gonna start out as a VA and they can build up from there and progress? Or are they at a place where they've already got sort of an established skillset and they just want to start doing it freelance as opposed to inside of an organization? Or have they had their time in corporate and they're just really feeling this to be, like they're being pulled to go out on their own and use their expert skills?

and their expertise to become a consultant. So we wanna filter them into those three. And there's no reason you can't move from one to the next, right? I do have people in my VA business that I know I could move all the way over. And then the agency offering is gonna be something, I don't know if it doesn't really necessarily fit like in that progression, but it fits sort of as a progression from either the freelancers or the, well, it could really be from any of them. But it's more about now I'm creating a business around this as opposed to it's just me as a service provider.

So you'll see a rebrand, which will be a lot more, I want to say like grown up and a lot more intentional, I think, to serve this audience. And what they're really looking for is that support. And it's funny because, you know, last year was a really rough year financially for everybody. And I was just like, the feedback we kept getting from our audience was, I don't have any money or I can't afford it or what have you. But you could offer them a

like the program for $40 and they still wouldn't take it because it wasn't necessarily a financial thing. It was that there's a belief gap, right? But interestingly enough, instead of offering a cheaper product, we turned around and offered something more expensive. built a 12 month mentorship program where they are working with me individually and as part of a group. And we're launching an agency this year that is very specific, is not a VA agency. It is a freelancing agency.

Stephanie Hayes (22:37.814)

where all of the people in the agency who are providing services have been through this 12 month mentorship program with me where every month they are getting an education in some specific aspect of online business. So by the time they finish this 12 month program, they've been through 12 months of learning about online business. So the agency is really to support online business owners. So that's like, but I sold that out in a matter of days.

And it was way more expensive than the other programs, but because they felt like someone was gonna be there holding their hands and giving them something to work towards, and this possibility of work down the road. Now, the way I've structured it is like, okay, yes, you're going to be learning these things to eventually become part of my team, but the other half of every month is that you have to use what you've learned on your own business. I want you to build your own business. I want you to get supported in building your own business so that you have that too.

I'm not gonna hire you into my team and you're gonna be full time. We teach all of our VAs and our freelancers to have a portfolio of income sources so that we connect them once they get certified, we connect them with a bunch of agencies that they can hire or they can apply to. And we tell them like, create relationships with agencies, create your own like big rock retainer clients.

Also, go get some project-based work, like fill in the gaps. That's a great way to improve your skills and have a little bit of variability. So that portfolio is very like, like not as risky and also gives them lots of other opportunities to find clients. So that's the, that's the goal for this year is that the vision that we're going to be executing on and it's going to be a total, a total rebrand for the whole business.

Shannon Mattern (24:27.267)

So many good things in everything you said. Like I really resonated when you said like, you know, in these other marketing spaces where everybody's like focused on front of funnel and how can we just sell, sell, sell. And there's no discussion of like, but what are we selling? What results are they getting? I think that's why I resonate with you and what you do so much because it's not about like, how can I just make the most money?

possible. It's like, can I have the biggest impact possible? The money will follow naturally from that. we experienced, like, 2023 was like the year that we really experienced that seismic shift where everybody really started. We started hearing that same thing. And I totally agree with you. wasn't.

It was the, can't afford it, but it wasn't, can't afford to spend the money. It's that I can't afford to make this investment and not get results. And I am not confident enough in myself that I can actually make this happen. But what if I don't get clients, but the world feels scary. like listening to this echo chamber of like, no one has any money right now. Nobody has spent like this black and white thinking that like creates fear in us.

And yes, I agree. Like you can't afford to like spend your precious time and resources on something that is not going to get you where you want to go. And that's why I'm so glad there are people like you out there, like us out there who truly care about making sure that you are successful off the back end and will like incubate you and lead you through that process.

because there is just a lot of like selling of information out there. And I think what you have noticed and what I've noticed too, because we talked about this at the beginning, anybody can learn a skill from anywhere now. That market is like, that's not where the value is anymore. It's like the learning of the skill. The value is in developing the application of the skill.

Shannon Mattern (26:52.359)

in the real world scenarios when you're dealing with real clients and real mindset stuff and all of the things that come up when you put yourself out there and you're dealing with difficult client situations and you're trying to figure out how to price things. Like that's where the real value comes in and working with a program like Fully Booked or you know us. So yeah, go ahead.

Stephanie Hayes (27:16.014)

It always surprises me so much when people don't come to the coaching calls and they sign up for the program and they just like don't because the coaching calls are so incredible like the transitions that people make and and even the ones who just come and listen like for them to be validated and to and to not be alone and realize that all the things that they're

Shannon Mattern (27:25.523)

You

Shannon Mattern (27:31.088)

Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie Hayes (27:39.448)

they're going through and the questions that they're going through are the questions that everyone else is asking. And so like we had someone, I mean, you get all kinds when you're in this business, right? But we had somebody sign up for the program, I don't know, last week or the week before or something. And she signed up, she logged in, blasted through the content really quickly and didn't really like obviously...

Shannon Mattern (27:43.299)

Yeah.

Stephanie Hayes (28:04.13)

didn't really read it or anything. And then she turned around a few hours later and said, I want my money back because it's not delivered in the way that I want to see it delivered. Like I want videos this way and something else that way. And I'm like, you haven't even stepped into the program. Like come to the coaching calls. That's where all the value is. If you are truly wondering if this is possible for you, that's what's going to get you through. It's not the course. The course is fine. It has stuff in it, whatever. But it's the, it's the conversations.

It is the interactions, it is the relationships people like our community members, like they hire each other or they, you know, they get on calls with each other all the time. They become friends. Like it's just such a tight, amazing community. And the work that we do in the coaching calls, one of my coaches is a mindset coach. And she and I have grown up together in this world and she and I've had all the same training and everything. And so we, brought her over from

Shannon Mattern (28:59.883)

you

Stephanie Hayes (29:02.242)

you know, from our previous experiences and she's incredible, like she's amazing. And so sometimes I'll just hand it off to her. say, you take this one because, but we were both well-versed in the same. So we do a lot of mindset coaching inside of the, and that is what trips people up. They get inside their head and they say, well, I've got this narrative that I...

You know, I can't do this because of this, or there's some block here. I'm looking at this, I'm obsessing over my website. I'm obsessing over my LinkedIn profile. I'm obsessed. I'm like, just stop, like just who cares, right? The rest of the world isn't sitting there going, what is she doing? We have to wait for what she's doing so we can judge her. Like you're lucky if you get anyone's attention, right? So that kind of perspective really helps with these guys. So the ones who are just kind of like going through the course content and then not getting

Shannon Mattern (29:39.595)

You

Stephanie Hayes (29:53.934)

forward, like, just please come and get coaching like that is such a valuable part of this. Now, having said that, I don't think I ever go to coaching calls for any of the programs I sign up for. But, but, you know, I'm a bit of a hypocrite in that regard, but different, maybe a different perspective. But that's just like, that's the value. And that's what I want to make sure is standing out for people is because we know that there's this belief gap, right? Last year, last year, we were getting, we were

Shannon Mattern (30:01.355)

you

Shannon Mattern (30:17.081)

Yep.

Stephanie Hayes (30:20.78)

little bit funny, we got a little frustrated because it was a really, really tough part of the year. We weren't getting any sort of engagement or responses from our newsletters and we've got a big list, right? Like we've got a big list of a lot of people and we said, let's go break our brand for a second. And so we sent this really sort of shitty email out to our list and we were like, you know, usually we're so supportive and this and inspirational and we were like, hey, what's your problem? Right?

you haven't done anything. You've been sitting on the list for nine months and, you know, three years, whatever, but you haven't taken any action. Like what's wrong? What's going on with you? And it was a bit like edgy, right? Like it was a bit shitty. And I just wanted to see what we would get back, right? So we had all, and so we gave them this sort of like four questions and we said, so what is it, right? Like, is it,

Shannon Mattern (31:00.075)

you

Stephanie Hayes (31:15.564)

I really wanna do this, but I'm not really sure what my next steps are. Is it, I think I wanna do this, but I'm not sure if I do? Or is it, I wanna do this, but I don't have any money. Or is it, I don't wanna do anything with you, I just like your newsletters and to hang out. Or is it like, I just wanna unsubscribe, I hate you, right? Fine, like go for it. And so we wanted to see what people would do when we got their attention by being like a little edgy.

So it was really interesting exercise because to a factor of three, people responded and said, I want to do this, but I can't afford it. And then we had, you know, the people who were like, well, I'm interested, but I don't know what the next step is. And I'm interested, but I'm not sure if it's for me. And then the other people just kind of went away. So we said, okay, to the people who said I can't afford it and the people who said I don't know what to do or I don't know what's next.

we offered them like a free group coaching call, like come on the group coaching call, sign up for it, have your questions answered, get coaching. We'll stay on as long as we need to do. And we had like, I don't know, like 38 people who signed up for that. And then we also offer to the people who were, not sure of their next steps. said, here's a free 15 minute one-on-one session with me. And I had 18 people sign up for those. Do you know how many people showed up for the group coaching call?

Shannon Mattern (32:43.758)

I'm gonna guess not that many. Yeah, I was gonna say zero, but yeah.

Stephanie Hayes (32:46.174)

one. Do you know how many people signed up for their the one-on-ones that they signed up for that they put in my calendar? Zero. Zero.

Shannon Mattern (32:55.733)

How many showed up for them? Ooh, I don't know. Ooh, okay, I was gonna guess zero again, but I wasn't sure. Yeah, that doesn't surprise me.

Stephanie Hayes (33:02.22)

Yeah. Which was, I mean, it was annoying, but it was also fascinating, right? It was fascinating because these people are like taking the time to answer, but then when offered something, they cower. And so that said to me, this is not a money problem. What I know about selling in the online world is that, or anywhere, is that when someone tells you the problem is money,

Shannon Mattern (33:06.151)

Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (33:14.784)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (33:22.347)

Alright.

Stephanie Hayes (33:31.118)

It's not really because if someone truly cannot afford something, they don't even like, they don't even engage, right? They just, they just won't. But these folks are reaching out and saying, I can't afford it. But what they're really saying is I'm not sure if I can afford not to be successful, right? Which is totally true. So, you know, we have to change our messaging around. And then we offered us a sponsorship, a scholarship program where we offered them everything for 50 % off plus, um,

they got some one-on-one coaching with me for six months. And so they would have to shell out like 500 bucks and they would get 12 months inside the community. They would get access to the full program. They would get all the group coaching. They would get one-on-one sessions with me. Now, my other clients in my other business pay $500 for one session with me. So that was like a great deal. So I had like 32 people apply for that and all the applications were like, this is so amazing.

I really need this and this would help me so much and whatever. And I was like, oh my God, can't offer this to 32 people because I will never have any time left. We said we were gonna offer it to five. I did, I offered it to 32 people. I said, okay, here you go. How many people signed up?

Shannon Mattern (34:47.179)

I'm gonna say five

Yep.

Stephanie Hayes (34:52.696)

So it's such an interesting like commentary on human psychology. Please give this to me, please give me this, this will be so good for me. Okay, here you go. No, I can't do it. I'm not gonna do it. So that's this belief gap, right? So that's what we really need to work on. Now, as we start to attract different audiences that'll change.

Shannon Mattern (34:53.961)

Yep.

Yes.

Shannon Mattern (35:07.584)

Yeah.

Stephanie Hayes (35:15.34)

But that is the number one thing that holds people back is that they just can't get past the belief gap that they could do this. And all of the work that we do in, I'll tell you like 90 % of the time, we're talking about getting clients. And we're talking about different ways to get clients. And we're talking about how you can get clients in the coaching call. And what are you doing specifically? And how do you find the...

the strategy that works best for you. And by the way, it doesn't have to be hard. It doesn't have to be uncomfortable. It doesn't have to be, and it's the same thing. I don't have a network of people. You do, first of all. And secondly, you don't need one. You don't need 500 clients. You need three, right? So it's just giving that perspective that really changes people when they've finally taken the step forward to say, okay, I'm gonna take a bet here and I'm gonna try.

And our offers and our promos are pretty good. Like you can get into this program for like 80 bucks a month. So it's not a financial issue at all. It really isn't. It's a belief issue and it's like, you gotta make that decision, right?

Shannon Mattern (36:24.383)

Yeah, I totally understand everything that you're saying. And it sounds like we did a lot of things too. We tested different price points and different things because we're like, okay, yeah, well on the face of it, this is what people are telling us. But what we really know, and we talk a lot about this on the podcast. And for those of you who listen to this podcast a lot, you'll understand why we talk about money mindset on this podcast constantly. Because when we talk about

different pricing paradigms, right? How some people are investment minded, some people are expense minded, some people are what we call hybrid minded and they're middle of the road. And if you are an expense minded person, meaning you believe that money is finite, that once you spend it, it's gone forever, never to return, there's not more money on the way. And you want to work with premium high end clients, you are not speaking the same language.

And, you know, in order for you to create and not undercharge and not over deliver and create the safety for you to like have a client, you cannot be expense minded in your own business. You have to think completely differently about money at its core. Otherwise, when you do get a client, you'll lower your price.

because you feel like you're harming them by taking money from them or whatever and it won't work. You will be afraid to market yourself because you will feel bad because you'll feel like you're taking money from people. So you have to completely change. You have to examine what you believe about money, question whether it's true or not, be willing to think something different. And only when you believe that you're not harming people by accepting money for services.

that make their life better and easier, will you be successful? And so I spend on this podcast week after week after week working on that belief gap because that's a whole nother layer of belief gap that's like different from like, well, can I get a client? It's like, here's all the mindset reasons why I'm even preventing myself from taking the first step to even getting a client because if...

Shannon Mattern (38:45.352)

my worldview tells me that I'm a horrible person if I do this, I'm never gonna do it. And so I always talk about the Web Designer Academy as like a benevolent bait and switch, right? I'm gonna enroll you in our program about like systems, processes, marketing, sales, pricing. But what we're really going to do is heal you at that core place so that you are a whole human who believes that you

accepting money from a client creates more for both of you and not less for them and more for you. And when you believe that you will put yourself in the room with people like Stephanie and take the steps and take the actions and grow your business and build an agency and give that opportunity for other people. But if you don't believe that you're never going to make a move, matter how many amazing deals she puts in front of you. So yeah.

Stephanie Hayes (39:39.648)

Yeah, I have about 132 things to say to that. So first of all, so first of all, yes, like the second biggest thing we talk about is money, right? In the coaching calls and the money mindset and all that sort of thing. And I'm a huge, huge, like I'm on my own journey right now to get into these very high level money mindset stuff. And I'm in a program and I've had a huge shift myself and you, you really have to believe it's already happened.

Shannon Mattern (39:42.815)

Hahaha!

Stephanie Hayes (40:07.032)

before it even does. So that's a whole other podcast episode. But what I'll tell you about women and money is that women are generally in our society viewed as good people if they're nice, right? When you think about a woman who has died, we talk about her and how nice she was. And so there is this ingrained culture for us that says,

If I'm taking money from somebody, I'm not being nice. And now I'm like breaking down my value in society. What I'll tell you about pricing, and this is the thing that changes people's views a lot. Your pricing is there, like people come up, they're like, what's the formula for me to price my service? There's no formula for you to price your services, right? So your pricing is there. Like this is how we shift from thinking about pricing as representative of our value.

Your pricing is a tool for you. It's there to teach. It's there to get the right people to do the right things and the wrong people to do nothing. It is there to represent your brand. So if you are a luxury brand, you want to be a luxury brand, high-end design services, and yet you're pricing at something way down here, no, your ideal clients are not going to look at that and say, that's a great deal. They're going to say, no, that's not for me. That's out of alignment with what I expect.

So take this emotion out of pricing and look at it as a, just like a fact, it's just an attribute of the business that you do. And it has to align with what the people you want to sell to are expecting. And the funny thing is I was at this event in December down in Florida, and this was all about the wealth and the money and money mindset and all this stuff, right? So I was in this room, in the right room, with these very, very 50, very successful business owners, people who are really doing well for themselves.

And they had this mindset about money that I really needed to inherit, right? And so we were sitting doing this exercise where we were talking about selling our services and it was theoretical, right? It was like, like a, just a role playing kind of thing. And so I was putting together this like package that I wanted to sell and it was all fictional and it was like about zoo keeping or something like that, like not what I do. And I, and so we went to present them to each other and they're all like, yeah, this is $60,000 for

Stephanie Hayes (42:29.614)

five months of working with me and this other person is like, yeah, this is going to be a hundred thousand dollar program. I'm like, this is $5,000. I'm like, oh, here we are. Like this is, you know, this is the shift, right? This little Robin Hood mentality. Oh my God. It's going to be so valuable to these people. So this is the thinking that gets people stuck is that they're like, oh, but if I offer a good deal, everyone's going to buy it. No, do not sell on price. Do not sell on price. If you are a brand that is

very intentionally and distinctly structured around being low cost, it totally valid. Like that is like dollar stores and you know, that is your brand. That is part of your brand. And so your pricing is going to be part of your brand. But if you are not that, when you offer pricing that is out of alignment with what your ideal clients are thinking to spend, they actually won't spend it. I actually will not buy something if it is cheaper than what I expect it to be. Because it says something about me.

And it says something about the quality. Like that says to me, there's something wrong with this. I'm gonna get in there, I'm gonna pay for it, and then it's gonna be like missing all sorts of things. So you gotta get out of that mindset that your pricing is about your worth, because it's not. It's all part of the structure. It's all very unemotional, right? And yes, people are, there are different types of buyers, but what I teach my clients is to, is not to get...

stuck in this mindset that every client has to be closed. There are clients that I will meet with and I'll be like, no, like no, just no. And that's okay. There are plenty of other, like release them, right? There are plenty of other clients that'll be out there and you have to believe that. Otherwise you are stuck. Like you will be stuck forever.

Shannon Mattern (44:16.715)

Oh my gosh, that's so good. So I'm curious, like what was the biggest shift for you in terms of your money mindset coming out of that event where people are like, yeah, $100,000 for this, this six month program or whatever, like what shifted for you walking away from that?

Stephanie Hayes (44:25.87)

Mm.

Stephanie Hayes (44:42.058)

It's really, it's a bit creepy and a little interesting that as soon as I got attached to this program, started like just everything that I thought of would just happen. But it was very much about getting out of the out of this old crummy thinking that, you shouldn't be, you know, I grew up with like, wealthy people are bad people, right? Or you shouldn't be asking for things or

You should be, you know, the Robin Hood. You should be the one that's pragmatic and blah, blah. But I actually was down there presenting to that, to that group. I was one of the sponsors of the event. And I got up in front of those, those folks who I considered to be like successful business owners and all like really, really smart people. And they were just like, wrapped. And there was a lady who stood up at the end of my presentation and she said, I just want to tell everybody I had a conversation with Stephanie yesterday.

for half an hour. And she goes, I've spent four years trying to buy other people's programs and trying to buy these cookie cutter programs and frameworks thinking that was all gonna be like the answer for me. And she goes, what I should have done is just hired her. So like these people are recognizing my value and I'm sitting in front of them thinking, gosh, I have a lot of experience and a lot to offer. And I had to ask myself the question, why was I selling myself short?

I'd just been in the wrong rooms, right? I had been immersed in other people who had that very, like that scarcity mindset. And when you're part of that community, it feels wrong to leave that community or it feels like you're gonna lose your community if you start asking for more. But that was a huge wake up call to me is like, I am completely abundant and I can have anything that I want. I really can. And if I start showing up like that,

other people believe it. If I kept showing up as like the little sort of Robin Hood, I would lose all the people that I really wanted to work with. And I'm at the point in my career now and have so much experience that I should be serving those folks who are at that level because they actually need it, right? They don't have people around them that are like actually rooted in strong experience and perspective and all of that sort of thing that can give them that.

Stephanie Hayes (47:05.976)

And then I've got my other business over here where I get to also bring the people up who are just starting out. And I just have to make sure that that's leveraged for me, right? Because I have to find both those places. But it was really about coming back to that sense of worth and that sense of value for yourself and recognizing the perspective that's out there.

Shannon Mattern (47:26.261)

so powerful and you know, think it's, I was listening to a podcast and I cannot remember who said this, but she was talking about a book that she had read about how, you know, we're all in line, you know, we're all waiting in the line to go through the door, but there's always another door to go through, but we're afraid to leave the line.

You know, we're afraid to leave the line to go through the other door because we know eventually maybe we'll get through the door just by waiting over here. But you have to be bold enough to like leave the line and know that you will find your own way in. And I think that that's kind of what came up for me as you were sharing that you're like, I've just, I haven't put myself in this room yet.

Stephanie Hayes (48:16.526)

That's right. That's right. Yeah. And part of putting yourself in another room is not just being around a different community, but it's also about putting yourself in another room in your own head space. what if I was, what if I behaved like the person that I really want to be? What if I just started living and acting like I was already there? That's another, like one of the big things that I've had to really work on is

I came back to my little town that I live in and everything's small here and everything is, the value here is about being an outdoor recreation enthusiast, right? And so nobody wants to dress up, nobody wants to go out, nobody like, it's a very weird little ecosystem here. And then you get, like, you start to get back down into that and you get back to your day-to-day grind and you start to like fall back into those old patterns. And so all of this stuff, you have to consciously

consciously keep working on and consciously it's like going to the gym, right? So all these people who have everybody has mindset stuff, right? Everybody has these limiting beliefs, but it's what you do within that matters. And we teach this a lot in our in our coaching sessions, but it's like, when I have that thought that I'm smaller than I am, I can't just sit there and say, well, yeah, I guess that's true. I have to say, okay, hold on.

What am I consciously doing about this? The goal is not to stop having the thought because that's futile. And then you just end up getting even worse, right? The goal is to say, okay, great. I recognize where this is coming from. I'm trying to keep myself safe, right? But I don't need that anymore. Like I'm feeling pretty good about this, but you can come here and you can hang out here, but I'm gonna be over here doing something. I'm gonna be over here taking some action. so that, and eventually like I always visualize it like this.

moody teenager that has come into the room and has been like, blah, blah, blah, all this bad stuff. And so I just say, that's cool. I'm over here making cookies in the kitchen, but you stay in the living room. You hang out as long as you want. You're welcome to be here. But I don't have time to listen to all of this. And so, you know, do your thing and stay as long as you want. And eventually they just leave. And that's the exercise over and over and over again. You'll do it once and like miraculously you're cured.

Stephanie Hayes (50:31.788)

You do it over and over and over again, and you have your own personal board of directors. I say to my clients a lot, they're borrowing my confidence because they might be willing to go out and do something, but they're just like, I don't know if I can. And when I tell them, yes, you can, of course you can. You're going to have to do it. You're going to have to step out. You can borrow my confidence in you until you have it yourself, right? So like surround yourself. The three pillars we tell all of our students is,

You have to commit, right? You have to decide that there's no one foot in, one foot out. Like you have to decide without being certain of the how. And know, Tasha who's runs the Money Men Set program, she says, look, there's these three pillars. There's like, what do you have? What do you believe or who are you going to be? And then what are you going to do? Well, everybody focuses on the what are you going to do? But we stopped thinking about

Who are we gonna be and what do we wanna have? And those two things are far more powerful in shifting you than in the, I don't need to know how it's gonna happen. I just need to know that I'm gonna get there and I'm going to believe that and I'm going to set all my sights on that. And so all the activities that I do, all of the actions that I take, all of the things I decide to do are in the service of that vision as opposed to the.

focusing so heavily on the how, which is what everybody wants. And ironically, that's what I do, but you know, like I want everybody to be over here first. And so it's like get committed, right? Like be committed, stay committed and decide that this is gonna be your path and you've got the help and you've got the support to get you there. The second thing is stay in consistent action, right? You can't just do one thing one time and then go, this doesn't work, right? Like this is an exercise. Entrepreneurship is about constantly trying things, constantly being curious.

and shifting that mindset from like judgment to curiosity. So everything that we do, even if it doesn't turn out the way that we want it to turn out, is good information. I don't even talk about failure. Like, it's not failure. It's just, okay, I did something and I got some new good information. I remember launching my first group program and like nobody bought it. And I'm like, but I asked everybody. And then I just was like, okay, well, I'm gonna launch it again in a couple of months and make some changes. And then I sold it out, right? Like so.

Stephanie Hayes (52:54.99)

It's just good information. And then the third thing that we say is stay supported. Whatever that means to you, whether that's you stay supported in our community, whether you stay supported, the worst thing for entrepreneurs is isolation because they sit there in their little heads and they go, well, I must be the only one having this problem, right? I'm trying to figure this out and I can't figure it out. I'm embarrassed. So many people come to coaching calls and they don't say anything. And I've started to say to them, I'm not going to ask you. I'm not going to call on you. Come and get what you came for.

every one of them has a question. And when I do call on them, they all were sitting there like ruminating on something. I'm like, go and get support. Why are you here? Like ask the, I want to help you, right? So stay supported, whether that's your personal friends and family, whether that's peers, whether that's a community that you're part of, but stay supported if only to not get into the rabbit hole of thinking you're the only one doing this.

Shannon Mattern (53:48.579)

my gosh, this is so good. And I could talk to you for another hour, but unfortunately we are at time. Can you share with everybody where they can go to connect with you, the fully booked brand, all of the things.

Stephanie Hayes (54:03.832)

For now, you can go to fullybookedva.com and find us all there, but we are actively in a rebrand and we will eventually be at be fully booked. mean, fullybookedva.com will still work, but be fully booked.com. And that is where we will eventually launch the new brand with all three channels and like this new energy. So I'm really looking forward to that.

Shannon Mattern (54:25.735)

Amazing. I'll link all of that up in the show notes. Stephanie, thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate it. And yeah, we'll see everyone back here next week.

Stephanie Hayes (54:37.324)

Thank you so much.