#115 – SEO for Web Designers with Sara Dunn

Shannon Mattern (00:01.633)

Hey everyone and welcome back to the profitable web designer podcast. I'm so excited to introduce you to my guest today Sarah Dunn who is a former web designer and developer turned full-time SEO specialist. So I know SEO is a super hot topic that you guys always want to hear about so I just can't wait to introduce you to Sarah. Her agency Sarah Does SEO brought their clients over a million free visits from search engines last year.

and Sarah coaches web designers, copywriters and marketers on how to do SEO for clients and avoid ranking disasters in her program called Rank for Revenue. So Sarah, welcome to the show.

Sara Dunn (00:43.304)

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for having me on. I love talking to web designers and I love talking SEO, so I'm excited for today.

Shannon Mattern (00:53.022)

Well, I'd to start out with your back story. So can you share with us like when did you get started in web design and like what ultimately led you to shift into teaching SEO for designers?

Sara Dunn (01:06.392)

All right, well, long story long, I'll try not to keep the long version. But in about 2012, I started just making websites for friends. So I think that that is probably a path that a lot of people identify with. I didn't go to college for design in any way. I was just kind good with a computer. And I was really interested in how to get things online. So I taught myself WordPress, which was

Shannon Mattern (01:09.035)

I love long story long.

Sara Dunn (01:34.688)

the CMS of the time. And I made a friend a website who had had a website made by a designer and they wanted something that was actually easy for them to update. And I was like, I heard of this thing WordPress, let me figure it out. I think that'd be really fun. And I just did it as a hobby and as a favor and I really, really enjoyed it. And that friend, you know, when her friend needed a website for a political campaign, it was like, hey, Sarah can make that for you. And

I realized after two or three websites that people would actually pay me to do it. So I ended up diving in with both feet in about the end of 2012 and creating my own business. And I did that just kind of growing my own knowledge, teaching myself different skills, basically saying yes to everything that people would pay me for. And I did that for about seven years. So

I focused on mostly web design, but also, you know, if a client was like, hey, will you do our social media? Hey, can you send our email newsletter? Hey, can you help us with this design brochure? I just kept saying yes, and then trying to think a little bit more about what were my favorite things and what did I really enjoy? And it was a super pivotal moment for me when I had a client, I was doing a pitch for this client. I really wanted to do this web design project.

And he looked at me and he said, hey, Sarah, I'm going to assume that this website is going to help us rank higher on Google. And I just paused and I panicked and I said, yes, absolutely. Yes. Stupidly. I don't recommend anyone else say they can do things they don't know how, but it did give me kind of the kick I needed to go, well, how does Google work? And what would I need to do to help this rank better on Google?

I actually discovered as part of that process that this client was already ranking on page one of Google for their most important keyword, and it became my job just to not mess that up. So I really, really enjoyed that project, and it kind of sent me on a path of wanting to pursue more SEO education and really wanting to learn more about how not only to create a beautiful website, but also help it rank on Google. So I'm very grateful for that client.

Shannon Mattern (03:42.989)

you

Shannon Mattern (03:56.158)

I love that story. And I also love the, you know, just the boldness of being like, Hey, yeah, I can figure that out. That's one of your needs that you want. Something really important to you. Like, yes, we're going to make that happen. I can figure that out. I had a very similar, like experience in and journey in that way, where like one of my very first clients is my my best friend's father-in-law.

And he has like this sound rental company here in Columbus. And it's just like him running this out of his garage, but they like make bank doing it. And he, like, he does not care what his website looks like. He kind of wants it on the dated side. And I don't like entirely love it, but he will not change it. And like our only job was to like get it ranked.

Sara Dunn (04:42.89)

No.

Shannon Mattern (04:50.399)

number one and like keep it ranked for like party sound, be your own DJ, like in my local area. And like it does. But like I had to figure all of that stuff out too. Right. It's like. And so then you like take the deep dive into like, OK, well, if we're migrating coasts, we're doing all of these things. There's all of these things to take into consideration. And it's I don't know about you, but like to me, it's fascinating to like.

Sara Dunn (05:20.056)

I think it's so fascinating. Yes, I like to think of it as a puzzle. And we don't get the picture on the box at the end to figure out where the puzzle pieces go. It's just like we know that all of these pieces are part of the puzzle. And it's our job to try to fit them together and see what actually brings things to life. And so I always find SEO so interesting because it's like, OK, what piece is really going to matter here?

Shannon Mattern (05:20.297)

learn that stuff and figure out how to do it.

Sara Dunn (05:48.832)

What do we need to put together in order to see results? And I am glad that I figured it out early and just kind of started saying like, okay, I personally believe a website should help a local business get found on Google. And how do I bake that into my process, make it part of what I do when I'm doing the website strategy and recommending what content this client needs?

It really became a differentiator in my business that I could say, yes, we create beautiful websites and they get found on Google. They bring our clients this much traffic. Here are graphs that prove it. And it was just a much better way for me to try to differentiate what we did versus what other people did and offered in their web design services.

Shannon Mattern (06:38.401)

that and like one of the things we always talk about in, you know, on our podcasts and in our programs is like, you're not selling a website, you're selling the outcomes that a website can create for the client in terms of, you know, more revenue, more freedom, more impact, more time. And one of the biggest like sticking points for people is like, okay, but what if I can't like promise that or what if I can't

I, what if I don't have control of that? I don't have control of whether, you know, the client does X, Y, Z. And I love what I'm hearing from you in terms of, you know, this topic because you're like, well, you do have some control. Like with, you know, with SEO, you do have like some control over like helping your client create.

the situation of ranking for certain things. Like I was thinking of one of, I love kind of going back in the vault, because I also am a retired web designer, right? Like I ended my business in 2019 to go all in on coaching. And I'm like, some of my favorite clients had like the coolest businesses. Like this one client ranked, had the top ranking recipe for sweet potato fries in, yeah.

Sara Dunn (07:46.647)

Yes.

Sara Dunn (08:05.56)

Amazing.

Shannon Mattern (08:05.983)

like, and then another client was like chalk paint. And she like did chalk paint tutorials for refinishing antique furniture. And it's just so fun to like, figure out how to get those super cool things like ranking. So tell me more about go ahead.

Sara Dunn (08:21.516)

Yes, for sure. I think you'd, mm-hmm. I just wanted to say, I feel like you bring up a really good point around the fact that a lot of web designers are a little bit afraid to step into an SEO conversation because they don't know what they can promise. They don't know how to set expectations properly. They might've been burned by a client in the past who is like,

Well, you said you were including SEO and I'm not ranking number one. And I think that those are super valid concerns. And back when I was including SEO and keyword research in web design projects, I had to learn how to really present that fact to clients. Yes, we are researching keywords. We're gonna incorporate them in the proper places.

And then there was so much education on the other pieces of the puzzle. And I do think that that's a place where a lot of web designers drop the ball is they just want to sell on, yes, I'll include SEO because they don't want to lose the sale, but they don't explain exactly what extent that goes to. How many pages are you doing SEO for? Are you doing keyword research?

How are you incorporating those in the copy? And then what does the client need to continue to do on an ongoing basis if they want to rank for more keywords or compete in a competitive market? So I love stepping into the conversation of saying, here's what I'm going to do. And that is just part of what Google is actually looking at. And then I educate clients on things like getting more links, building up your online authority, getting seen in more places and how

we don't as web designers control the total outcome of the rankings. We put the right inputs on the website and then it's the business's job to work on their online reputation and kind of like take the baton from there. So when you do the education right, I think it becomes an easier conversation because the client understands you're doing what's within your control, but Google is looking at a lot more than just what exists on the website.

Sara Dunn (10:30.572)

So I would encourage anyone to be really clear. If you even mention the word SEO, be really clear about what you're doing and what the client is also going to be needing to do in the future if they want to rank really well.

Shannon Mattern (10:44.629)

That is such a good point. And I've heard this talked about in terms of like building SEO friendly websites versus having like an ongoing SEO strategy. And we've talked on like past episodes about that. So I'll link that up in the show notes. And I think it is important, you know, as a web designer, like you do not have to offer ongoing SEO strategy if you don't want to.

but why not like learn about it and see if it is something that you want to offer because it absolutely can help you create some ongoing consistent recurring revenue, which who doesn't love that. But if you don't want to, at least you are really clear on like, okay, I am making sure that your website is SEO friendly in these specific ways. This is what I'm doing. This is what I'm not doing. And this is what you're responsible for so that you just feel confident that you gave

the client all of the information that they need to like just make a decision. And yeah, so what are your thoughts on that?

Sara Dunn (11:47.382)

Yes.

Sara Dunn (11:51.83)

Yeah, so I love both options. And I think that as people get more comfortable, if you want to start with doing a basic SEO setup on a website, I think that's a great place to start as a web designer. And then maybe as you see the results of that, learn how to watch the impact of what you did in Google Search Console and Google Analytics. I think you'll know if you get excited to go, OK, what's next?

What is the next thing I can do? What else would I recommend for this client? And if you have that itch to be like, OK, I want to constantly improve. I want them to add more content about this topic because I'm seeing that show up in their keyword list. That, I think, is kind of like a tiny nudge to say, ooh, maybe I should offer ongoing SEO or look into how that works because

It is something that can be wonderful recurring revenue and it can be a way to have more impact and really track the impact of the work that you've done. I don't know how you feel about this Shannon, but I see a lot of web designers marketing themselves now as just talking about, know, we create modern brands, you know, we help you connect with your target customers and it's all very vague and it's not results driven like, you know,

our clients get this many more inquiries or we help our clients get more traffic or improve their conversion rate or anything that's really results focused. It's very flowery a lot of the time. So SEO is a great way. If you're like, I want to show measurable results and really stand in that as a way to differentiate. SEO is so powerful and it really is juicy for clients who are considering you versus other options.

Shannon Mattern (13:36.551)

I love that. you know, just thinking about, you know, your early journey where you're like, okay, so this client's like, you're going to make sure that like I stay here, right? And then you, you dove into that. That's a pivotal moment, as you said, in your, journey from there, how did you then start kind of following that thread that you mentioned earlier about like, Ooh, what about this? What about that?

Sara Dunn (14:06.36)

Yes, I loved it. mean, as soon as I saw that first number one ranking, I was like, how can I do this more? Like, I love a goal that has a yes. And there's such a tangible outcome. You can actually see with Google, like, are we winning? How are we doing? And that's something that really appealed to me. So I went on for a few more years just kind of attending webinars and trying to read articles and keep up with the news. And I got to a point where I was like,

Shannon Mattern (14:13.606)

You're like, I have the power.

Sara Dunn (14:36.012)

I feel like I have a good base of SEO knowledge, but I don't 100 % feel confident that I could say like, I offer SEO services or I have a proven SEO process. And that was a moment for me in 2017 when I decided to actually invest in an SEO course. So I went to a live two-day bootcamp is what it was called. It was super intense. It was by an instructor.

We had homework the first night. We had to write a thousand word blog post overnight before we showed up the second night. But what was so amazing about it is I finally felt like all of those little terms that I had learned, alt text, SEO titles, optimized images. I knew all of these as concepts. I didn't know how to always put them together in the same process. And that's what the instructor really gave me is a solid SEO process that I could follow.

from start to finish for each website that I worked on. And truly, that was so pivotal, pivotal because she said, okay, you've got this. I can tell you're doing what you need to do. And if you keep doing this, you are going to continue to see good results. And it just gave me so much more confidence to continue to step into saying, SEO is our differentiator. It's what we do really well. And...

Eventually, it even led to me fully shifting into only offering SEO services. As of about 2019, I decided we weren't taking any new website clients and I just wanted to do SEO and learn it in a really deep way for a specific market. I can't believe how long it's been now. It's been over five years of focusing specifically on wedding industry SEO and I absolutely love it.

And it made me realize that a lot of web designers who are out there working with clients don't know a lot about SEO and we're being hired to come in at the end of the process. And there might need to be some more education out there. So that's kind of the rest of my story to kind of fast forward to now.

Shannon Mattern (16:50.217)

So I love that you niche and I definitely want to circle back to that, but I kind of want to talk now about what might be coming up for some listeners. They might have some like SEO shame going on if they were like, my gosh, I might be one of those people that like maybe built a website and didn't really think about SEO first. And now I'm like having all these fraughty feelings.

Like I didn't do something right for my clients or whatever. What do you say to those designers who are listening, who are kind of like, uh-oh, I don't know if someone like Sarah needed to come after me and clean up my mess. What would you say to those designers?

Sara Dunn (17:36.696)

Well, I would say we can't fix the past, but we can move forward into the future. And I do think that web designers need kind of that base layer of knowledge. So if you're sitting there going, I don't know if I know enough, or I don't know if I'm walking into this project knowing what I'm getting into, I wanna put a tool into your tool belt. I wanna recommend that any web designer check out ubersuggest.com.

And I'm gonna bring this up because you can do one free search on this tool per day. And what I would recommend is if you're starting to work with a client or you're doing a proposal, run their website through ubersuggest.com because an SEO tool like this will actually tell you how the client ranks on Google right now. You might discover they don't really rank for any keywords and the tool's like, hey, this site isn't really getting any traffic right now.

And if that's the case, you kind of have a green light to go forward with whatever strategy you'd like to recommend. But you might also find out the opposite. This website ranks amazing. They've worked with an SEO company in the past or someone DIY the SEO and did a good job and they're ranking for a lot of keywords. And that can really give you a little bit of a pause to say, okay, do I feel confident that I know what it takes to preserve these rankings?

think it's really important if someone's hiring you to improve their business, that you don't accidentally get rid of some traffic that they might be having right now through SEO and good optimization. So I want to recommend anyone who isn't super familiar, at least use this tool and run your potential clients through the tool and see how they rank right now so that you know how much care you need to take with their SEO and their current traffic. Because I have heard

way too many stories. get inquiries in my inbox as an SEO specialist. And a lot of the time it's from a person who hired a web designer who thought that person knew about SEO or thought their traffic was going to improve and they ended up disappointed because either their traffic went down or their rankings didn't improve as much as they thought they would.

Sara Dunn (19:56.428)

I don't want any web designer to end a project, feel like they thought it went amazing, but then have the client end up disappointed because of SEO results. So if you use an SEO tool and get a feeling for the current rankings, you can say, hey, client, I think maybe you should bring in an SEO expert on this because look at how you're doing right now. I would be happy to partner with an SEO provider who kind of creates the plan and the strategy.

and walks through how to maintain these rankings and improve them. And I think that that would show the client that you are taking more care with their website in this proposal than other providers might. I don't think you would necessarily lose that business. You would show how much you are trying to care for that client and do right by them. So.

No shame here if you don't feel like you have a lot of SEO knowledge, but put that tool in your tool belt and make sure to use it.

Shannon Mattern (20:57.441)

That is such good advice. And I totally agree with the part where you said like, that is going to show the client like your level of expertise, even if you aren't an SEO expert to just be like, I know, you know, that this is what we need to look at. And you might not have even considered it like, you know, and it could even be that the client doesn't assume anything whatsoever about SEO. And suddenly they're like,

We launched this website and I'm not getting any more contact forms. They might have no clue. And so it's just, I think education builds trust. And I love how you are just like, yeah, just guide them through, but you don't have to be the savior. You don't have to be the one to do all of the things. Make the suggestion to partner with someone and let's.

them make the decision. that's the, love that. That's so good. So you talked about how you niche down into SEO in the wedding industry specifically. Like one, why the wedding industry? And two, why did you like decide to niche down?

Sara Dunn (22:00.642)

Yes.

Sara Dunn (22:16.642)

So it's so interesting because most of my website projects, as I was my first five, six, seven years in business, almost all of my clients were just local businesses near me. So I worked with dentists and law firms and concrete companies and mortgage companies and these kind of local service providers.

I loved working with them, it was great, but I got to a point where I realized when I did a couple projects in the same industry or a couple projects that were similar, I was more confident. I felt like we delivered a better product because I actually knew what the client did, who they were trying to reach, what their keywords were when I got a little deeper into SEO. And I was like, you know what? I want to...

be someone that does the best job possible. And I kind of want to be known as someone who is the best at something really specific. And the problem was I didn't know what that thing would be. So I actually made a mental choice, like I want to niche down without actually knowing what I wanted to niche down into. And I remember being so frustrated at the time because

I looked at other niche specialists and they would all go, well, I kind of fell into this thing because my brother-in-law is a blah, blah, blah. Now I just work with that industry. And I'm like, I don't have any of that. I don't know what to do. I even went down a path for a little while where I was like, I'm going to do Facebook ads for chiropractors. I was like, I just want to do something specific. And I realized quickly that maybe that wasn't my target market. But I ended up

doing a project that was for a wedding planner. And it was like that angel sing light bulb, the star shoot across the sky kind of moment because I loved this project so much. It was a wedding planner I met at a conference and we were actually introducing ourselves. She said to me, my gosh, are you in digital marketing? Because I have an SEO problem. Do you know anything about SEO? And I was like, yes, it's pretty much my favorite. Tell me more.

Sara Dunn (24:26.784)

And she said she had ranked on the first page of Google for her wedding planner keyword for literally like 10 years. And then she had her website redesigned and all of her rankings went away. She fell off Google from like page one to page 12 and most of her traffic dried up. And she was like, I'm not getting inquiries. My phone's not ringing. I need someone to help me fix it. And can you help me? And I was like that.

Sounds super fun. So I worked with her for about six months is how long it took for us to kind of clean it up, implement keywords back, keep working on cleaning up more things, adding more content. And we got her back to page one. She was so grateful. She was like, Sarah, do you want to do more projects like this? And I said, absolutely. And she just connected me with everybody she knew in the wedding industry. She was like,

wedding people are not getting good SEO advice and I want to connect you. And I said, that sounds great. And so I ended up actually creating secretly. This was like my shame side gig. I was like, I'm gonna keep my agency website up and I'm gonna create this separate website. I'm just gonna call it saradoseo.com for right now. And I'm gonna send all the wedding people over there and I'm gonna make sure that nobody knows that I'm doing this just to see if it goes okay.

Shannon Mattern (25:31.854)

you

Sara Dunn (25:49.758)

And it really took off pretty well, pretty quickly. And I'm really very grateful for that. So it was 2018, 2019, I said, this is all I wanna do anymore and started just focusing on wedding industry SEO. So basically that means anyone who serves engaged couples getting married is our client. And we've worked with wedding planners, photographers, venues, florists, makeup artists.

wedding pet attendance, like any type of business that's in the wedding industry. Those are our people. And I really feel like because we work with the same types of businesses, I really know the strategies that work. I know the keywords people are searching for. And we just do better work more efficiently because we are doing really repeatable things that really work over and over again.

Shannon Mattern (26:17.421)

you

Shannon Mattern (26:42.458)

Okay, I have so many questions. One, have you ever been in a situation where you have like local competitors in the same niche? And how do you deal with that as a service provider, an SEO service provider?

Sara Dunn (26:54.956)

Yes.

Sara Dunn (26:59.254)

Yeah, I think that this is something that a lot of people are like, well, I couldn't do that because I can't do my best work for both of them. And I actually don't believe that. I actually believe that we can do excellent work for each of our clients. And we aren't necessarily picking who's first. I'm not saying, hey, I'm going to work harder for Suzanne and do better work for her than we are going to do for Phil.

It's not like that. We're going to do the best job possible and implement great SEO on both sites. And like I mentioned earlier, we don't control, even as SEOs, we don't control everything about this business's online reputation. So each of these sites has a different number of reviews online. They have a different number of links and online publications. Some of them have made the best of lists for their area or nationally.

Those are things that we don't work on. So we'll refer to a PR company for things like that. And the business owner is responsible for collecting their own online reviews and doing a great job for their clients. So those are all things that Google is considering as well. So we can implement excellent SEO strategy. And there are still factors outside of our control. I'm not choosing the winner and loser. We are doing great work for all of them.

And I will say, I very rarely get that question from a client. People come to us and they know that they are working with industry specialists. And so they are happy to work with us, even if we've worked with someone else in the market, because their alternative is working with, you know, Joe Schmo on Fiverr.

to do their SEO instead and they'd much rather work with an industry specialist. So it's actually a question that I don't run into as often as I thought that I would, but if I did, I would be happy to explain it the same way. We're gonna do a great job for each of our clients and Google is gonna make the final choice.

Shannon Mattern (28:56.767)

I love it. So you started Sarah Does SEO as this little secret side project just in case. When did you decide to like put it in the spotlight and, you know, be like, okay, this is what I do.

Sara Dunn (29:13.836)

Yeah, so it was probably when we finally started off boarding all of our website maintenance clients because I just, didn't want those web design clients to think that we were leaving them or we didn't want their business. So basically I was running two businesses. We had the web design maintenance clients that we were still maintaining. Some of them even as long as till last year. And

Shannon Mattern (29:19.339)

Okay.

Shannon Mattern (29:26.541)

sure.

Sara Dunn (29:39.788)

But Sarah Does SEO has been my full focus since at least 2020, likely earlier. So it's kind of been this thing where I have been running both and we're finally, you know, five years or so later to a place where I'm like, okay, we took the agency website mostly down. It just says, you know, parent company of Sarah Does SEO. We moved a bunch of the blog content over to sarahdoesseo.com.

But it's been a slow process where there wasn't like a date where I was like, burn this old business down. It was just like, kind of operated both things for a really long time. And I would say, I mean, for anyone who's considering niching where it does feel really scary, it was the only strategy that I could convince myself to do, which was doing it secretly on the side on a separate brand and a separate website and knowing that I could fall back.

on the more general work that had been really successful for multiple years. So it was like my risk averse, like the only way I could convince myself to do it. And I don't think it was necessarily a bad strategy.

Shannon Mattern (30:49.047)

I am never the like, jump and the parachute will appear or like burn the boats. Like that's not my thing. Like at all. I'm like, no, I want to keep the boat here and I'm going to do my best to make this work. And if it doesn't, I'm going to get on the boat and like go. it's just, yeah. So I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about pricing. We talk about pricing.

Sara Dunn (30:58.966)

Yes!

Sara Dunn (31:07.212)

Yes, that's exactly what I was doing. I totally get that.

Shannon Mattern (31:19.093)

and money mindset and all of those things a lot on this podcast. What has your pricing journey been for your SEO services? Like from the early days when you were like, yeah, we do that. Oops, did I just lie? All the way to now where you're like, this is all I do for my clients and we're the best at it in the wedding industry.

Sara Dunn (31:43.046)

I mean, it is definitely a journey. And I will say, prior to starting Sarah Does SEO, I was always doing SEO services as part of a web design project. So it was all kind of rolled into one. And the most important thing that happened in pricing with SEO was when I went to that SEO bootcamp that I attended. And I actually had someone say to me, like, you get it. I can tell you get it. You should charge for this.

And I very quickly almost doubled my website prices, because I finally felt like I could stand behind the results and I could actually explain why what I did was different than someone else. And so that was one of the biggest pricing impacts. This was years ago, but I think I was charging like $2,500 for a website. And then very quickly, was like minimum price 5,000.

go there and I feel like I can defend it and explain why we are worth a higher price than I used to charge. And of course prices went up from there with the web design projects, but that was a huge jump was really feeling educated and feeling confident so that I could explain the results. When I started doing SEO services, it was something that I really had to try a couple different service structures and then a couple different

price levels. And I think when you start in something new, you always under price to start. It's like, let me get in the door. Let me get some testimonials, get some experience. And I've also kind of shifted what we do. So I used to just do really hands on multiple month projects, really, really big projects. And in working in one industry with one type of client, I realized that there were a few things that I was doing that were the most impactful.

And sure, it would be great to work with every client for like 12 months and do everything for them, but that's really expensive for someone to pay for. So how could I deliver the five things that were most important in a really efficient way and get Google understanding their business, get their site maps submitted to Google Search Console, get their keywords in place so that Google understands what they do and where they're located.

Sara Dunn (34:02.836)

And that is something that I've really worked on and is now our biggest service. It's called the SEO fix and it's a seven day SEO setup service. It's basically what I'm teaching web designers to offer also because it is like the most important steps that need to be put in place if a website is going to rank. And then if the client wants to take it to a next level or you as a service provider want to offer something more ongoing, you can keep working on it from there.

But the first SEO setup is so, so important. And so that's the main service that we offer right now. I think I rolled it out at maybe $12.50 for the seven day SEO setup, and we're at $18.50 right now. And I'm really comfortable with that price. Might take it up a little bit, but I really feel like we can deliver a great product at that price. And it's much more affordable than signing a 12 month SEO contract with a big agency.

Shannon Mattern (35:02.349)

I think that is, I just love that progression and how you're like, how can we just get you started in a way that you're going to like start seeing some results so that you can then be like, okay, that worked really well. How else can I work with you? I think that that's like a brilliant strategy. And so tell me more about when you decided you're like, okay, I need to teach this stuff to other designers.

When did you decide that?

Sara Dunn (35:32.428)

You know, it's been, I didn't go into SEO being like, I am gonna teach other people how to do SEO. I just loved doing it myself. And there've been two things that have happened in about the last three years. The first thing is I keep getting these inquiries in my inbox from web design clients who are disappointed in the work that their designer did. And it breaks my heart as a former web designer

to know that there are some simple things that could have been done to avoid this client losing their rankings, losing their traffic, being frustrated and that affecting their business. Like, I just want all the web designers to know, check the traffic, set up the keywords, write an SEO title and description, like these small things, I just wish they knew. And I started realizing, okay, well, maybe I need to teach that. And then the other thing that happened,

I offer monthly free SEO trainings. I call them SEO lunch and learns. They're 30 minutes. I don't pitch anything. It is truly because I want to teach people something simple about SEO that makes them feel empowered, that they can go make a change. They can go make an improvement or they understand a technical SEO topic a little bit better. And SEO lunch and learn was always intended for my wedding SEO audience. So those business owners working on their own websites.

But I started to see more and more people signing up who were marketing service providers. So copywriters were coming, web designers were coming, Pinterest managers were coming, blog writers were coming. I was like, these people want to learn and I don't really have anything for them. So it was like these little nudges I kept getting like, okay, I have something, a problem I want to see fixed and it feels like people want to fix that problem and I need to figure out how to teach it.

So that's kind of how it all came together.

Shannon Mattern (37:30.33)

So how do you work with web designers and all those other marketing related service providers to teach them SEO? What does that look like?

Sara Dunn (37:40.834)

So I actually just launched a brand new program that I am really, really excited about. We had our first group of students sign up and it is a program that's called Rank for Revenue. So I took a look and really thought deeply about what does a web designer or a copywriter or a business coach who advises on website strategy, what do those people really need to know to do a great SEO setup?

where they're protecting their clients' and helping them rank better? And what do I need to teach them to be able to track the results and feel really confident that they did a great job? And then as an added bonus, I was like, you know what nobody is teaching is how to actually scope out an SEO service, how to price it, and how to sell it to the client.

So I was like, this would be a really special program. If not only could I teach SEO and keyword research, you can kind of get that anywhere, but let me teach you my exact process, start to finish, and how to sell it to your clients in a way that brings in more revenue for your business. So I'm super excited about this program and the ability for web designers to either bake SEO into their proposals.

and include that in a way that looks different and special or offer it as an optional add-on and make some additional revenue on every project. So that's what Rank for Revenue is all about.

Shannon Mattern (39:12.413)

It is brilliant. It's so needed. I, know, from where I sit in the challenges, we talk a lot about mindset inside of our programs and on the podcast and confidence is a huge thing. Imposter syndrome is a huge thing. And a lot of times it is a mindset problem, but sometimes it's a mechanics problem. Like sometimes you really do just need to go like get super confident.

in like a skill that's going to allow you to really say like, I've got you here are the results we're going to create together. Here's what I'm responsible for. Here's what you're responsible for. Here's how we can do this now. Here's how we can work on this ongoing and really like make you feel confident that you are checking all the boxes on your side to do the best that you can do for your client. And I think that this

is really like filling in a gap for a lot of people when they're like, yeah, I'm really confident in what I do. But like this, there's just like deep down this thing where I feel like I just can't promise the results that they really want me to be able to promise for them to like just say yes and go all in on these things. And I think it would like bridge that gap and make it so much easier when you're confident as the salesperson to say,

Sara Dunn (40:24.556)

Yes.

Shannon Mattern (40:39.777)

Yeah, here's exactly how we're gonna do this. Your client is, their trust level and their confidence just goes way up too. And it just makes sales so much easier. And for people who quote unquote hate selling, when it's that easy, it's fun because you're so excited about what's possible for them because you know you can create it.

Sara Dunn (41:02.646)

Yes, and you know you've done it before. SEO is something that's actually measurable. I think sometimes we can put a website out in the world and it's like, OK, well, a successful project is when my client likes the design. Or a successful project is when the client shares about it and they're really excited. But that's not necessarily measurable success that is really tangible and helps you feel much, much more confident.

Shannon Mattern (41:05.249)

Yeah.

Sara Dunn (41:31.09)

Sometimes with SEO, what's really special is we can actually show our clients results they didn't even realize they were getting. Like, you know, that increase in inquiries you're seeing, well, it might be because your traffic is up 40 % and you're getting clicks for this keyword, this keyword, and this keyword, which are super relevant to your services. So the client loves...

being found, not just having a beautiful website. so SEO is like wonderful, measurable way. You can be like, this is the impact I had. And that does kind of snowball for people who aren't super confident in the way that they sell or how they're able to talk about the results that they get. When you can be like, here's a graph.

Or here's the screenshot from Google Analytics that shows how much traffic increased after we launched this new website. That is the kind of thing that if you don't really like being really salesy or pushy or you don't really like talking about yourself, you can talk about your results instead because SEO gives you that tangible result that you're able to talk about. So it's just one of the reasons I love it.

Shannon Mattern (42:44.321)

my gosh. So where can people go to learn more about rank your revenue? I know they want me to ask that question like right now and not at the end of our conversation.

Sara Dunn (42:56.374)

Yeah, so you can go to sarahdoesseo.com. We have Rank for Revenue linked there. I'm starting a brand new Instagram account that is just for web designers and marketing service providers. So that's on Instagram at at rank for revenue. So that would be a great place to get connected. And I'm going to be sharing a lot of SEO tips. So if you just want to pick up a little bit here and there.

You know, what is Google Search Console? How do I use it to see keywords? Just to get a little bit more knowledge. That would be the perfect place to follow is at rank for revenue on Instagram.

Shannon Mattern (43:35.882)

Love it. So I just have a couple more questions for you before we wrap up today. And the first one is what's one thing you wish you would have known or believed in the earlier days of your business?

Sara Dunn (43:53.506)

I love this question. one of the things that I I would have known is the value of measurable results, which is actually something we've talked about a lot today. But it's something that I really believe in because I think when you can start learning how to measure the impact of what you do, that is when confidence happens and when you'll feel more confident charging more and justifying your value.

For any web designer who is kind of getting started or doesn't feel super confident, Google Analytics is a great thing to just get a little bit comfortable with so you can understand what's going on with the websites you created. That's one thing I wish I would have learned a little bit earlier.

Shannon Mattern (44:37.569)

Yeah, I just think that knowing at your core that what you create has an impact and that knowing coming from like, look exactly what I've done for someone else can just bring so much confidence. So I love that. Another thing that we'd love to talk about on this show is boundaries.

So you offer SEO services. They're probably, you know, very specific. How do you deal with like scope creep and, know, I don't know. Are there such things as SEO emergencies? I'm sure there were like website emergencies back in the day, but like, how do you deal with those issues with clients when you're managing your agency and managing multiple clients? Like, how do you maintain that?

sustainability in your business and like have it not bleed into your whole life.

Sara Dunn (45:40.77)

Yeah, I think the number one thing on boundaries for me has been creating very clear services that have very clear scope of work and what's included. One of the reasons we have our seven day SEO setup service is because the work we're doing and the outcomes are very clear. It's optimized the homepage, three additional pages, one blog post, we submit it to Google, we set up your site map.

So it's really clear what's included in that service. And I don't really have a problem saying, hey, that request is outside the scope of the service. Here is someone else who could help with that. So I think with boundaries, the other thing that I've discovered in addition to really clearly scoped services is the ability to have a really good referral network where you can not just say no to a client and have them like,

frustrated and like, don't know what to do then, you can say, hey, that's not included, but this person is who I would recommend to help with that. And at this point, we actually run into it a lot with websites. So especially where an SEO client has actually DIY their website and we're the first person they've ever hired to work on it, all of a sudden they're asking us about

how to migrate their blog content and all of these different things that aren't included in what we do as the SEO expert. But as long as we have someone we can turn to or a help article we can send or we suggest that they contact ShowIt support or something like that, we're not leaving them high and dry. And I feel good about it. We don't necessarily have to do everything for them, but if we can give them the next step so they aren't frustrated, that can really help.

Shannon Mattern (47:27.085)

So good. Okay, final question. And I ask this to everyone that comes on the show. And that is what's one belief about yourself that you had to change to get to where you are today?

Sara Dunn (47:40.226)

This is such a big question. And I think one of those beliefs was that I had to be the helper and I had to say yes to everything. I think that that was a big part of my journey. And I don't necessarily regret that I was like a yes person. Yes, I'll do this. Yes, I'll do that. Because I did get to learn a lot about different areas and I got to do a lot of research.

and I got to learn what I liked and what I didn't, but I really had to change that belief that I had to say yes to every request. I had to believe that the client could actually be served better on certain things by other people. At my core, I just wanted to say yes because I wanted to help them and they had a need and so I was happy to help them out, but sometimes the help that they need

doesn't have to be me. And that was one of the biggest beliefs that I had to shift to do better work and have better boundaries.

Shannon Mattern (48:41.725)

So good. Well, that is the perfect place to wrap up this episode. Can you share with everyone again where they can go to connect with you, get their hands on rank your revenue? did I say it right? I said it wrong again. Rank for revenue. Rank for revenue. was like, as soon as it was out of my mouth, I was like, nope, I did that again. Where they can go to get their hands on rank for revenue and

all the things that you've got going on.

Sara Dunn (49:13.986)

So my website is saradoseo.com and please, please, please come connect with me on Instagram at rankforevenue. I can't wait to see you there and help you out in your SEO journey wherever you might be.

Shannon Mattern (49:29.151)

Amazing. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it.

Sara Dunn (49:34.208)

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me on.

Shannon Mattern (49:38.313)

Okay, that's it.