#151 – Redefining Success with Jenny Belanger

Shannon Mattern (00:01.144)

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Profitable Web Designer podcast. And today I am joined by an old colleague, friend, alumni of the Web Designer Academy, Jenny Bellinger. She is the CEO and creative director of Jenny B Designs, a web design studio, and she helps entrepreneurs and small businesses build websites that communicate and connect with visitors.

and attract their ideal clients. And she's also the host of the website Design Made Simple podcast sharing simple, easy ways small business owners can make more money with their websites. So Jenny, welcome to the show.

JennyB (00:39.704)

Thank you so much Shannon, I'm so happy to talk to you again after all these years and reconnect.

Shannon Mattern (00:45.642)

I know we were just chit chatting before I hit record and I was like, we need to start recording so we don't like get too far off into our conversation without letting everyone else listen in on it. So we first met because you were one of our early students in the web designer Academy and one of our early cohorts, but I want to go back even farther than that. And I'd love for you to share.

a little more about your web design business journey. What got you started? When did you like start your business? What kind of led you on this path?

JennyB (01:25.774)

Sure. I think it all started back in like 1999 when I was studying abroad and I learned how to, I wanted to share my travels with all my friends and family back home. And I think the blogs and websites were just kind of like getting started back then. And so I learned how to program a website and built my first ever to share my travels.

And after graduation, I worked for a nonprofit. I was in the nonprofit world. And when you are in nonprofit, you have to wear lots of hats. And that's where I started designing websites. I built my first ever for that organization. And there were a lot of other nonprofits that we were affiliated with. And people saw our website and then asked who did that. And then I kind of started doing websites on the side for other organizations.

And throughout the years, that was kind of like the one thing that I loved about my job, the designing the websites. And I decided when I was pregnant with my son that I didn't want to work full time and I wanted to really focus on my design business. And that's really when I focused on that entirely and made the transition. And I love it. I love designing websites. I love working with clients, just helping them get set up online to better showcase who they are.

with the world and to attract those ideal clients and make them money. And it's a joy every day that I get to do that.

Shannon Mattern (02:57.588)

I love that the way that you describe it because, you know, I truly feel the same way that like what I get to do every day is a joy. I'm like, sometimes it's hard for me to think about like dreaming bigger because I'm so happy with what I have now that I'm like, how is this my life? Like, this is amazing, you know, and also I'm like, I do want to have more impact to do more things, but like,

At the same time, if I didn't, I'm like, this is pretty great. so it's one of those things when to hear you describe that you've created that business and life that you were really striving for back when we met in, was it pre-pandemic that we met? I don't even, or was it during the pandemic? Okay.

JennyB (03:49.07)

I think it was like right at the beginning. was like transitioning over. So it was right at the beginning of, I had already left the corporate, the nonprofit world, but I hadn't, yes, I had a web design business, but I feel like when we met and I worked with you, that's truly when my like full business started from all that amazing information and help that you gave me.

Shannon Mattern (04:04.384)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (04:13.632)

I remember having early conversations with you and I don't know that you thought this way, but I remember us having these conversations on live strategy calls like, just because it's a nonprofit doesn't mean that they don't have money to spend on things. And that was one of the early conversations I remember having when you were like.

JennyB (04:28.456)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (04:37.098)

I want to work with nonprofit clients and start there. you know, can I, don't know if you thought this, tell you, tell me, bring me back. Did you wonder like, can I really make the kind of money that I want to make if nonprofits are my clients?

JennyB (04:51.118)

Yeah, that was the first question I ever asked you. was concerned about what I was charging, what they couldn't afford, and if I could make it work. And yeah, that was the first thing that was on my mind. But I quickly learned that I need to stay focused on my quality of services. And there will be nonprofits out there who can afford to invest in working with someone like me. So yeah, that was one of my first concerns.

Shannon Mattern (05:18.072)

That's what I was like, I feel like that I remember that being one of the first things because back then we did talk more about like choosing a niche that was like at the intersection of like your experience and what you're good at and what you like and what you've been doing. Nowadays, we talk more about like a type of client not necessarily having to focus on like one specific niche. But yeah, whenever someone's like, I really have a heart to work in this space, but like,

do nonprofits have money? And I'm always like, I had a budget of $4 million to work with when I was, you know, like in an executive role at a nonprofit. So we had money and we spent money. We just didn't take a profit. yeah. So going back to that decision to leave corporate, corporate nonprofit and go out on your own, you know,

What were some of the early like challenges that you experienced?

JennyB (06:25.58)

I think it was a lot of things, obviously, setting up the business systems and processes or even understanding that you need to have those to work with clients and juggling all of them. And then finding a way to expand my business because prior to that, it was just referrals, word of mouth. But now I need to have more than just...

or two clients a month. So how do I grow this business and get out there and market? And I didn't even really know too much about marketing myself. And there were just so many things that I needed to learn that foundation. I knew how to design websites beyond that. I needed to learn all the business components.

Shannon Mattern (07:10.636)

I know that we worked on just, you know, getting some systems and processes in place and the core things that, you know, we do inside of our program, which I recall you really just taking those and running with them. But let's talk about this, like really wanting to expand beyond one or two clients a month. Like what types of things did you try? What worked really well for you? What didn't work so well for you?

Yeah, I'm curious to know what that looked like then and honestly like what you're doing now too.

JennyB (07:48.18)

Mm-hmm. I really followed your playbook. I enjoyed how you were not social media focused. It was everything else beyond that. It was about networking and relationships. And I remember I spent so much time working on creating blog posts for my website and finding people to do kind of blog swaps. We have the collaborations there, a lot of networking, one-on-ones, asking people to connect me with someone that they might know.

reaching out to the next person, working on my freebie. I feel like, you know, five years ago, that was a little bit easier. People wanted to get the downloads. It was easier to build up your email list and share that free thing. But I spent a lot of time doing that. And then my audience grew and my email list grew. And it's just kind of progressed since then. I do add in social media. It's not my favorite thing to do.

I do find clients from a few groups that I'm in, but it's all about that networking and the connection. And now my podcast is also a large piece of the puzzle. That is pretty much my long form piece of content. It's something that I enjoy to do. And I get that and I break it up and share it on my blog and in my newsletter and on social. And I'm finding that...

people are actually finding me on the podcast player and I'm getting new clients from there. So that's one of my main sources of finding new clients right now.

Shannon Mattern (09:18.616)

I love that. And yeah, to go back to like the email marketing piece and the freebie piece, like that's definitely something that we saw over the past few years kind of start to be a place where I would see people get really like our students get really stuck. Like, what do I do for a freebie spending a lot of time and like working on it and perfectionism and you know, it starting to have like,

diminishing returns, but kind of diminishing returns. And so it's not like it doesn't work. absolutely does work. It's like really cool to have like a piece of something that you can like use to lead into building a relationship. But it's not something that we like, we have that like module kind of tucked away as like a bonus now, because we're like just cut to the chase and like,

meet people, get curious about them, ask them questions, build relationships, send them something that like adds value. So there are so many ways that you can do that without like having to create your own content. But also I love like the, I still love the blog interview swaps, but I love that you have a podcast now.

And we were chatting before I hit record that, you know, my podcast producer and you met her, at an event. tell us more about like your journey to thinking that you might want to start a podcast to promote your web design business and really how that all unfolded.

JennyB (11:00.364)

It started with I wanted to find a way to create a piece of something that I do for marketing that I enjoy. And blog writing isn't my favorite thing to do. And so I do like teaching and sharing knowledge. And my first thought was that I would start a YouTube channel. And I gave it six months. So I actually committed to doing YouTube for six months. If you look for me on YouTube, I'm there. And I produced a video every other week.

And I found that I loved researching the content, putting together the script and everything that came with it. But when it came time to record sitting in front of the video, making sure that like you're looking good and that you don't mess up your words and then editing because when someone's watching the video, they want to see these high quality videos that are cut in the right spots and all the things that came along with the video editing portion. It wasn't bringing me joy.

And I decided that I could repurpose everything that I'm doing, but do it in an audio format. And it's a little lower lift for me. It's more casual. I'm finding that I have better chats. I do mostly solo shows, but I can just, you know, kind of talk off the cuff and it's a little bit more relaxed and enjoyable for me. And that's when I transitioned to podcasting, which was December of 2023. So.

I've been doing it since then and I really, really enjoy it. I find that I'm able to share so much in each episode and then people read my newsletters and I always get comments about my topic of the week and new clients are coming to me and they're telling me that they listen to all these episodes and they're like sharing my words back to me on consultation calls and things like that. And so it does two things. It educates people about how to make their websites better, but also educates.

potential clients who might want to work with me and about the process and how I go about things. So it's been a lot of fun and journey to get to the podcasting from the YouTubing, I like where I am right now.

Shannon Mattern (13:04.856)

I love that so much. And I totally understand like the allure of YouTube because, you know, it's like, oh, it's a search engine. It's this, it's that. You build trust with video and like all of the reasons that, you know, people say that, you know, YouTube is a place to be. But I feel the same exact way you do about like just the level of effort.

for content creation on that channel. I also, like, I find for me personally, I don't consume a whole lot of content on YouTube. Like, my consumption of choice is podcasts and being on someone's email list. And so it's interesting to me that like, that's what...

That's what I want to do. That's my most comfort, comfortable, easy, doesn't feel like work method of doing the same exact thing, just getting to communicate with people and share my thoughts and ideas and help them grow their business. But it's like, that's the kind of content I like to consume. It's the kind of content I like to create. And it just makes it.

so much easier. Like we don't have to be everywhere to have a successful business.

JennyB (14:32.044)

Yeah, even in I went to Podfest earlier this year. It's a conference for podcasters and even there there's a lot of pressure from everyone that you if you have a podcast you need to be on video to you need to do a video podcast. Everyone's on YouTube and there's so much pressure but I don't think that you have to be everywhere. I think you should be where you're comfortable where it makes you happy wherever you can be consistent and I'm staying off video for a while.

Shannon Mattern (15:00.088)

Well, yeah, so we are like, we're recording the video of this podcast, right? And we started recording video of our podcasts this year for the purpose of like, yeah, we're gonna put these videos on YouTube, see if we reach a wider audience, but sorry, YouTube watchers, there's gonna be nothing special happening other than like this convert, you'll get to see our faces.

for this conversation, but there's no going to be no special editing, no cutting it down into clips, like no nothing. And we're just going to test out and see, you know, does, that reach more listeners? Because one of the stats that I heard is like people like are listening to podcasts on YouTube outside of YouTube music. And I'm like, okay, well, if I can reach more people with my message to help them.

That's fine, but I don't even consider that to be like being on video, so to speak. I mean, yeah, sure, I like did my hair and put makeup on for this, but I did that for you, Jenny, not for like YouTube. You don't need to see what I look like before getting showered. But yeah, so I'm gonna try it out. But also it's like, if I don't, it's fine. And if I do, we'll see. And I just don't feel that.

pressure and I'm, I am super curious where that pressure comes from, you know, to like for podcasters to be on video because I feel like it's like, man, takes away why we love to do podcasting in the first place is like, it's just so easy. It's not so polished. It's not so highly produced.

JennyB (16:48.984)

Yeah, I know. I know. I like how you're recording this. You'll have to report back and tell me if you were able to acquire a new audience over there. But I...

Shannon Mattern (16:57.206)

Yeah, I'm sure it'll be 2026 before we even really see any like momentum from, you know, from that effort. But yeah, we'll see. I don't know.

So I'm curious, were some of your, like you think of like Jenny five years ago or five or six years ago and like who you are as a business owner now, like what are some of your biggest mindset shifts that you're like, I'm so glad I don't believe that anymore or I'm so glad I experienced this and now I think this way. What are some of those?

transformations you've gone through over the past five years.

JennyB (17:42.766)

The first one would be understanding my worth and knowing what to charge and accepting that. You know, when we all start out, we're charging like a couple hundred dollars for a website, but that's not what you can keep to have a successful business. So understanding that I can charge my worth. And then I would say deciding who I want to work with. I don't have to accept anyone who wants to work with me.

Over the years, I think that my messaging and my work, the type of work that I put out there really helps clarify and bring in the right kind of clients who are attracted and who do want to work with me. But it was a journey. I got to understand that I can pick and choose who I want to work with. And I have boundaries. I really do put a lot of boundaries in place and how I work with my clients.

and I've gotten more structured with my processes. I'm very organized and type A. And so I like the project management portion of things. So I have a very tight process and lead my clients through it. And by doing so, creates those boundaries within, give me freedom. So I think the biggest one was learning that I can work with whoever I want and I can create the business that I want to work in and however I want to have that business operate.

It doesn't need to be Monday through Friday, nine to five. I am definitely flexible with my hours. I don't work on Fridays and I work when my kids are in school and I structure all my time around that and understanding like this is my business and it can look however I want. And that's why I have this business, not to work every day for every hour of the day.

Shannon Mattern (19:27.902)

I love that so much. And as you were saying that I was thinking like, what do you think changed about your messaging? You you mentioned that you like tweaked it and changed it to really focus on who you want to work with. Like, what was that shift? Like who were you speaking to before? And like, who are you speaking to now?

JennyB (19:51.596)

I was speaking to anyone before and I would do anything. I think my website was very vague. Like basically, if you want a website, you can work with me. But now it's more about the process and how I love to work with clients who want to bring out their personality on their website and want a website that makes them money, that attracts their ideal clients and makes them money that's rooted in marketing and has a very streamlined process.

And in a casual manner as well, would say that my messaging is a little bit more casual, not as buttoned up or corporate as probably one of my first business websites that I built for myself. It's not, you know, that corporate jargon. So just putting myself out there, being my true self and bringing in calling in who I want to work with. And I think my work too on my website also brings in a specific type of client, my design work.

I think when someone sees that the connection that they form with my work and my branding is it brings in the right person.

Shannon Mattern (20:55.062)

Yeah, I love your, I'm one of those people that I'm like, ooh, I love her logo. I love the vibe of this. And just the tone of your messaging is so approachable yet like, she's got me. She's gonna handle this for me. So with that being kind of so, I love that you weren't like, I work with this very specific.

type of business with this avatar with this, it's very much more like this type of person that wants these things. Tell me how that like informs the content that you talk about on your podcast. Like how did you come up with a podcast that's not just talking, like people are like, how do I not talk about like websites and deliverables and all those things? Like how do you speak to

what that person really wants and like keep them entertained long enough, not that we have to entertain them, but like keep them so engaged and not like teaching them about web design like you would a web designer, if that question makes sense.

JennyB (22:10.412)

Yeah, it does. My audience is small business owners. And in my mind, the problem that they have is their website isn't making them money. It's not attracting leads. It's not converting. Maybe it doesn't look like it should. Something doesn't feel right with their website. And I try to tackle different areas of something that they can look at and make some changes.

and see those changes in action. I try not to get too granular because it is web design and it can get boring and people can just tune out, but I try to make it engaging that they can do one thing or learn about one topic, maybe something that they can do on their contact page to get some more people to actually take that action or even understanding that you need people to take an action on your website because...

Some people don't understand that there needs to be a goal to their website. So trying to come up with little bite-sized topics about small business websites and how someone can make some changes to make it better is what I focus on.

Shannon Mattern (23:23.545)

I, you know, as I'm thinking about that, I'm like always thinking about what would the like, not objections or questions I would hear from someone who maybe hasn't really stepped into their worth as a web designer like you have, where they'd be like, well, what if I, if I tell them what to do, why would they ever hire me or, you know, those types of things.

What is your response to that real concern from someone who's maybe working their way towards transforming what they really believe about their own value?

JennyB (24:03.598)

Yeah, I was just listening to the podcasting business school with Adam yesterday and he was just talking with his guest about, you some people's theory is you don't want to give too much away because then they're not going to want to hire you. But I believe in just sharing as much as I can. There's a difference between sharing everything and then someone actually implementing it versus sharing everything. Someone learns, that's what I'm supposed to do. But they're

they might not wanna do it. They might not wanna deal with it and they'd rather just hire someone to take care of it. And I believe that my audience is probably, know, three quarters of the people are DIY. They're listening to see how they can make improvements, but there might come a time in their business when they're ready to invest in a new website and I'll probably be the person they're thinking of. And then the other, you know, quarter are just trying to learn a little bit more. And when they listen, they say, this is a little bit.

too much for me and they'll come to me. So I don't think that you can ever give away too much. I think if someone wants to work with you and wants to hire someone, they will. And I don't think you can hold back that information to get someone to move faster to work with you.

Shannon Mattern (25:11.384)

I love that. Like I totally agree with that. And you know, there have been, I was just recording a podcast with Erica Nash, our client success coordinator a couple of days ago where I realized that there's like the, a component of the web designer Academy that like, there's just this one piece that I talk around.

in all of my marketing and in the podcast that I've like very deliberately been like withholding because of this like fear that I didn't even realize that I had that like, if I talk about this piece, then no one's ever gonna need to enroll in the web designer academy again. And it's so silly to think that I think that because also on the flip side, I agree with everything that you said, I've

always thought I believed like you can never give away too much for free. know, like we talked about the concept of a share worthy freebie something that like is so good. It makes people want to share it because people share what makes them look good. People like to share things that are like massively helpful and it helps like your marketing gain momentum. But then I realized like, oh, I didn't.

like realize that I also am like holding back this one thing because I have this like fear that I kept, I don't know, papering over that. Well, if I talk about all of it, then no one's going to want any like, or they're just going to do it themselves without me. And so I totally agree with you. And also it's like really important to become aware of like the places that we're holding ourselves back. You know what I mean?

JennyB (27:04.258)

You're so good at that. listen to your podcast all the time and you're so good at, you know, thinking about what you were thinking at certain times of your business and what does that mean and going deeper. And I learned so much just by listening to you go through all these processes. It's been eye-opening, to say the least, to hear you to do this. And I find myself thinking, well, why did I think that and what could be causing me to think that way? I mean, trying to get

to the root of the problem. But you are, you're so good at that.

Shannon Mattern (27:37.538)

Thank you. I don't know any other way to be. And that's why I appreciate like the podcast so much. Cause I have like this little container once a month to kind of like talk through, talk through those things, you know, in relation to like growing a business and all of that stuff. So I want to circle back to your podcast and you started it. And this is how these are the things that you talk about and why you've chosen to talk about these things.

how I'm sure it's got people like just being like, I can't wait till the day that I can work with Jenny and like you're on their list. You're on their like goals list to hire you. And, you know, how did you once you started the podcast, how did you like start like leveraging it to get listeners? What's your strategy for

like spreading the word about it so that there are actually people listening and getting excited about working with you.

JennyB (28:40.236)

Hmm. That's a good question. That's something that I'm consistently trying to do. listened, I mentioned this earlier to the podcasting business school, but I spent a lot of time working on my podcast title and my description and making sure that it's found in search and then making sure that when I have episodes out there that I'm sharing it and emails and I do a lot of networking thanks to you and all your systems.

But when I do that networking, always mention the podcast. And I do something called a website audit session, a little mini audit on the podcast where I bring in a small business owner and do a little mini audit on the spot. And that's kind of like having a guest on my podcast because most are solo shows, but it's coaching episodes that really have helped me grow to bring in new listeners and they tell their friends and then they recommend someone to me.

So it's been a slow burn, something that I'm always working on, but I'm trying to share it whenever the opportunity occurs. And whenever I'm chatting with someone, I have a shirt that says I have a podcast and just sharing it with everyone.

Shannon Mattern (29:52.364)

That is so brilliant. I love that strategy of like having a guest come on and doing a mini audit. And it just makes me think like, like if you have that episode in your back pocket, then when you meet a similar type of business owner, then you're like, you're a, you know, like yoga practice, yoga studio too. I just did a mini audit for another yoga studio owner. Let me send you that episode. And then it's just like,

so organic for you to like share, like let someone know like, hey, guess what? I'm really good at what I do. I'm an expert. I help people just like you without having to be like, hey, I'm really good at what I do. Like I help people just like you. You get to really make a new connection, add value. What a give and a gift for the type of networking we teach.

at the web designer Academy, which is always like, give before you ask and, you know, just build relationships and let them unfold without, without expectation, but also with being proactive. So I think that's so brilliant. I love that idea so much. want everyone listening to this to consider like starting a niche, starting a podcast for your.

for your web design business or at least going and being a guest on podcasts of your ideal clients. Do you do that? Or do you go and podcast guests on other people's podcasts besides this one, obviously?

JennyB (31:32.878)

In 2021, I did like 50 podcasts. I was guest on a lot of shows. did, like you're suggesting, I work with a lot in the health and wellness space. So I go on health and wellness podcasts and share about how to make more money with your website. But since starting my own podcast, I haven't, and I do want to do that so that then I can send people back to my show. It's just a logical way to, if they're listening to another podcast, they'll probably listen to me. So that is something that I want to do next year.

Shannon Mattern (32:01.044)

And it's like, there's always plenty of time to do all of it because the podcast is evergreen. It doesn't like, like disappear down the feed. It's always there for people to binge listen. It's like there's, love podcasting so much for that reason.

JennyB (32:16.727)

I do too. you know, it makes a good on my, when someone's scheduled a consultation, I send an email back with them and I share a couple of podcast episodes. I talked about what you can expect when you do a website redesign project and it educates my potential clients, my current clients, and like you said, client acquisition. Like it does so many things. It's such a wonderful treasure trove of content that I think anyone should start one if they have the time and bandwidth to do it.

Shannon Mattern (32:44.054)

my goodness. Like just even like educating your client on the process systems boundaries. Like, as you know, we need to communicate those things over and over again with our clients to train them to become dream clients. And how fun to give them a podcast that they can just listen to when they're doing other things instead of like it's in their email and they just, you know, didn't pay attention to all of the things that you sent them.

or they didn't log into the portal and read all of the, read all the things you put in there. So, so, so brilliant. I love it as a marketing tool and as a like engagement tool and just a client service tool. So good. I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about money mindset. You mentioned earlier that like you really started to understand your worth and your, and your value. What were some of the

other biggest like mindset shifts aha moments around pricing and money mindset that you've experienced over the years.

JennyB (33:53.984)

At the beginning, think it was understanding that I could charge my worth and then over time, understanding that I provide a high level of service and that I have dialed in systems and I produce a high quality product and getting comfortable not being the most inexpensive option and not being the highest, but you know, somewhere in between and just sitting with that and knowing that

I might not get 10 clients a month, but if I get six clients a month and they're at my higher rate, that makes everything so much better. I have better clients that I'm working with, fewer projects to worry about, and making the same amount of money. So just being comfortable sitting in an investment price point that makes sense for me.

Shannon Mattern (34:47.904)

I love that. And so what do you think are some of the challenges that you're like most proud of overcoming in, you know, in the years since you've started?

JennyB (35:03.628)

I think overcoming all the pressure to do all the things, we always get hit from everywhere. You got to be everywhere on social and do everything to market your business. And I've just had to sit back and say, you know, I spend time networking and I spend time on my podcast and that's enough relationships are where it is for me. And then

Just being comfortable in my brand and who I am. I really have evolved into this brand that I'm happy with and that I think attracts the right clients and knowing that I don't have to be anything for anyone else. I just have to be myself and build the business that I want. That's really all that matters. And I found myself being really comfortable for the last couple of years with that and I'm embracing it and I'm happy doing what I'm doing. And every day that I get to do what I do, I work with great clients.

Being happy where I am and not being pressured to do more and more and more because there's also a lot of voices. You got to scale, you got to grow, you got to build a team. And while I have a small team, you know, they're all part time and we all do our pieces, but I don't have to scale into an agency. I can be happy where I am serving the clients that I'm serving.

Shannon Mattern (36:14.984)

my gosh, we just had this conversation in our next level mastermind. I think I mentioned it on another podcast episode I was talking to someone about yesterday. our next level mastermind is like the, you know, after you've gone through the web designer Academy, we have this container for like, okay, you've got the business foundations, like what's next. And

I have a messaging problem there because people think that next level is exactly what you said. It's scale, it's grow, it's build a team. And maybe back in 2021, 2022, that was my intention for that room. But as we have been in there, things have shifted and changed so much that it's really not about that at all. It's more about

how can I live the life that I want to live and love what I do and have freedom, flexibility, autonomy, and still call that a success, which was super fascinating, the conversation that we had where...

one of our members was like, run a successful business and this, this and that. And then she rolled it back and she was like, well, I don't mean to say that I'm successful. It's not like I'm making this and I don't have this and I don't have that. And I was, I'm just like, what do you mean? Like you're gonna roll back saying that you're successful because it didn't like check these boxes of this. It's like.

there's no number that makes us successful. You get to decide what your vision is and there should never be any pressure from anyone to make it be different. But I think it's really important to know what you really truly want at your core and not chase arbitrary success metrics.

JennyB (38:22.156)

Yeah, that's really hard. That's where I've come to after the last few years. But that's a hard place to be and to get to because there is so much pressure. You got to grow. You got to add more team members. You got to scale. But coming to that realization that what you're doing is enough and it makes you happy and it suits your life. And that's success. And yeah, I love what you're teaching over there. It doesn't have to be someone's version of success. It's your version of success.

Shannon Mattern (38:49.91)

Yeah. And you know, the other thing about that is nobody's like in that room and in, you know, our program, it's like, you don't have to do all of this alone. And I think that that's something that I'm curious, you know, you joined the web designer Academy back in 2020 invested in yourself and in your business in that way. What advice do you have for all of those lone wolf web designers out there who are like, I can, I'm

I'm brilliant, I can reverse engineer anything. how, you know, I used to do that too. What's your perspective or advice on like, you know, being part of like mentorship programs or coaching programs or things like that.

JennyB (39:36.398)

I loved and valued my time in your WDA, the Website Academy. It gave me the foundation, it gave me the community and the support. And I think that it is so important to have that group of people that you can chat with and ask questions and get some support from and throw ideas off of. I wouldn't be where I am today without your Web Designer Academy when I really started.

It gave me so much community foundation, made me feel like I wasn't alone. I think support is so essential to web designers out there. finding that community that they can be a part of, it should be an important part of their journey.

Shannon Mattern (40:18.252)

Yeah, you know, just because you're like, listen to podcasting business school, you know, you're you're it sounds like you're someone who's like, okay, once I know the thing that I'm going to do, I'm going to learn from the people who I vibe with and I value and I'm going to like, not try to just reinvent the wheel on my own, which is something that I had to like, learn the hard way to where I'm just like, let me look and see what other people are doing.

I have this technical skill to build anything. Let me build the thing. Okay, wait, why isn't this working for me the same way that it worked for them? Oh, because it's not always strategy. It's not always knowledge. It could be mindset. It could be you just don't know what you don't know. And like, my dog isn't gonna tell me that. Like she's the one I my days with here.

And so I just think it's for me personally, like I can't see my own stuff unless someone else like reflects it back to me or creates an opportunity for me to see it. And I have these, have conversations with other people to experience it. So I just think it's so important. And I'm so glad that you like, that you were able to like build that strong foundation and then like go off on your own and you know,

explore and do different things and really land at this place where you're like, I feel like I have a successful business. And you're really happy with what you're doing and how you're doing it. So it's just so beautiful.

JennyB (41:58.24)

Aw, thank you Shannon. Yeah, it's been a fun journey, but I'm really happy where I am right now.

Shannon Mattern (42:03.21)

Amazing. One last question for you before we wrap up and that is what belief about yourself did you have to change to get to where you are today?

JennyB (42:15.502)

I am a rule follower and I thought that I had to follow all the rules and do what everyone told me. And that was a big one, just understanding that I don't, I just need to do what feels right to me. And that took me to where I am now. Cause I feel like I don't do a lot of things that everyone says to do, but you just have to follow your own lead.

Shannon Mattern (42:39.192)

That's so good. So good. That resonates with me so much. So thank you so much for being here. Can you share with everyone where they can go to learn more about you, check out your podcast, see what you're up to?

JennyB (42:41.45)

Hahaha!

JennyB (42:56.728)

Sure, you can head on over to websitedesignmadesimple on your podcast player if you want to hear some episodes there. And then you can find me online at jenniebedesigns.com. Shares all about the web design business and then you can see my YouTube videos and the podcast.

Shannon Mattern (43:13.588)

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for being here. It was really great to reconnect with you and, you know, see what your business looks like five years later. And I just really appreciate your time. So thank you so much.

JennyB (43:26.51)

Thank you, Shannon. I appreciate you.