#197 – Building Visual Trust in an Artificial World with Pippa Tanko

Shannon Mattern (00:01.14)

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Profitable Web Designer podcast. And this week I am joined by Pippa Tanko who helps visionary creatives build personal brands that stand out, feel genuine, visible and aligned. So Pippa, welcome to the show.

Pippa Tanko (00:19.704)

Thanks Shannon, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here and chat to you.

Shannon Mattern (00:24.628)

Yeah, I'm excited for you to be here too. And you actually reached out to me, I don't know how many months ago now. we talk about this on the podcast all the time. Outreach, connecting with people who serve a similar audience. And you sent a very nice email pitching an idea for a collaboration. We set up a time to chat. And I was like, OK, you're really awesome. I want to have you on the podcast so I can

two birds, one stone get to know you and ask you all my nosy questions. And everybody else gets to hear those answers too. So I'm so glad that you reached out. Can you share a little bit more with our listeners about you and what you do?

Pippa Tanko (01:14.294)

Absolutely. So thanks so much for the introduction. First of all, I'm excited to be here. So I'm a visual storyteller. I suppose my background is in brand strategy and visual storytelling. And I used to manage all the photography and imagery for Harrods, which is a big department store here in the UK.

Because Harrods have multiple different brands kind of sitting underneath their brand, I learned a lot about how visual style can tell a story for a brand without you really realizing it. know, every brand that I worked with had a slightly different visual style that gave a different feel, gave a different, just told a different story really, whether it was products or fashion.

And so when I left and decided I would work for myself, I wanted to really bring that to personal brands because, you know, big brands have big budgets for these kinds of things. And I really wanted to help the creatives that are, you know, just trying to make ends meet, trying to charge more, trying to, well, you know, I'm sure you know with creatives.

You know, we start our businesses to create, but there's so much more that goes into it. And so I genuinely believe that creatives need to be paid what they're worth and that they can. And so I'm just trying to help them do that through the imagery that they share and how they tell the story of their business and their brand.

Shannon Mattern (03:00.284)

That's beautiful. That's like one of the reasons why I was like, I definitely want to talk to you more because we're both so passionate about creatives charging what they really should be charging for the value that they bring to their clients and anything and everything that I can do to help them.

realize that is, you know, is a win in my book. So I want to go back to your decision to leave corporate and start your own thing. So many of our listeners have been in that situation where like they did not just decide one day like to learn design and be a freelancer on their own. you know, worked in a corporate role and for whatever reason,

Pippa Tanko (03:38.51)

Man for man.

Shannon Mattern (03:59.444)

decided to make that move. I'm super curious about what compelled you to go out on your own.

Pippa Tanko (04:07.746)

Sure, so my story actually starts a little before I started managing the photography for Harrods because I have dipped in and out of working for myself since before that. So I came to the UK from South Africa when I was 23 and I actually studied graphic design and 3D animation and I was very young and green as I like to put it and I was quite shy, quite...

you know, I'd never left South Africa or kind of where I grew up. So it was a bit of a baptism by fire, but I found myself in more corporate roles. So I actually was in a more, because I've always been quite good at tech. I was in a tech role where I was doing problem solving and troubleshooting tech in a kind of corporate environment. And I actually got fired.

So it's a story that actually sometimes is a bit cringy for me to tell, but I recently told it on the radio here in the UK. I, for whatever reason, sent a personal email to somebody that owed me a lot of money and had skipped the country. And I called her lots of horrible names. I was quite young. And

Shannon Mattern (05:12.307)

I'm

Pippa Tanko (05:29.782)

She reported me to the company I was working for and because I'd used such colorful language, I can get a bit fiery as my husband tells me all the time. I'm the fiery one in the relationship. And I lost my job. But at the time I was already thinking about starting a photography business. So that just kind of gave me the push. Now don't get me wrong, it was pretty tough.

confidence took a massive knock when that happened. I was actually really nervous to look for another job because I didn't know how on earth I was gonna explain it. And I had to move out of my really nice apartment because I couldn't afford to pay the rent. And I was trying to figure out what on earth I was gonna do. And I kind of just decided to go for it. And so I started my photography business.

And it was pretty slow going and pretty tough in those early days. I had to learn how to be a business owner, how to win work. But also, I think I was incredibly lucky in that the school that I went to in South Africa, we could, instead of taking mathematics, we could take business. And they taught us a lot about business. had to actually run a business.

while we were in our final year and pay tax and do stock take. And so I think that put me in good stead for doing it, but I just had to muddle my way through and figure it out. And that's pretty much how I started my first business, which was actually a family and baby business, a family and baby photography. wasn't branding at all.

Shannon Mattern (07:19.983)

That is such a powerful story of resilience to me, you know, and to hear that, you know, maybe you didn't choose the exit, you know, and the timing wasn't your choice. And there's so many things that happened to us or happened as a result of things, choices that we've made that maybe create unwanted results for us. And

I just love how you said you muddled through, but it's truly like it's persistence and it's perseverance and it's just, you know, learning from those things and figuring it out as you go, because I don't know, I haven't met anyone yet who's like, yeah, I went to.

I went to business school for all of this and I learned everything I needed to know. And I came out knowing exactly what to do. And I just did it all. And I checked all the boxes and everything worked out fine. And I never had a challenge along the way. Like said no one ever.

Pippa Tanko (08:26.446)

Yes, exactly. But you know what I think is so interesting is that so many people are scared to share the stories of like the failures and the trials and the tribulations that they faced because they want to look like they've got it all figured out. But actually, that's where the growth happens. And look, so many positive things came out of that. Not only the business owner I am today, but I met my husband.

Shannon Mattern (08:36.304)

Yeah.

Pippa Tanko (08:54.082)

because I had to move house and I moved in down the street from him, which is a completely different story I won't go into. But, you know, I think these things take us in the direction we're meant for. And if you persevere and you keep going, you can build something in the face of adversity almost.

Shannon Mattern (09:15.737)

And yeah, and with brand photography and brand visibility, it's all about visibility. And even what you just said, people want to hide the parts that aren't so shiny or the parts, the messy parts, or the parts that we're maybe a little ashamed of. And we can totally do that in our

in our visibility and our marketing too, where it's like, this picture, I don't like this way this photo looks or this angle or whatever. And like, we're trying to present something to the world that's like, they don't need that from us.

Pippa Tanko (10:00.808)

No, you know, I think the problem is when we present as perfect, people can't really relate because nobody feels they're perfect. But when we show the messy middle, you know, it's okay to have some perfection in there, but there are going to be times where the image isn't what you think is your best, but it tells the right story. You know, we're also self-critical as well.

Shannon Mattern (10:07.869)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (10:22.365)

Mm-hmm.

Pippa Tanko (10:28.574)

And so we're always striving for that perfect image of ourselves, but actually just telling the right story and making sure that you connect it to whatever you want your audience to understand or to learn is very, powerful. I think when we hide behind visuals that are perfect, people kind of don't relate to that very well.

Shannon Mattern (10:53.777)

Yeah. it's hard because I, know, personally for me, I'm like, I don't know. I can be very self-critical of myself, you know? So when I see myself on video, it used to be that like I hated my voice.

Pippa Tanko (11:15.886)

Mm-hmm, me too.

Shannon Mattern (11:16.283)

And I would never want to hear my own voice. The fact that I have a podcast, I've, I have another, so I've recorded over 500 podcast episodes and everything I do is like talking. Like I got over it because the message was just so much more important than that other voice in my head saying, your voice is like whatever chatter was going on back there. I still

Pippa Tanko (11:38.215)

And aren't you grateful today to that person who was so uncomfortable and pushed through the uncomfort to get to where you are now because now you've done it 500 times. It's probably much easier now than it was back then when you were just starting out. And it's just about that persistence of putting yourself out there and you know a lot of business is being uncomfortable.

Shannon Mattern (11:44.477)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (11:50.002)

Yeah.

Pippa Tanko (12:03.916)

a lot of business, especially when it's growth, right? A lot of it is about just sitting in that uncomfortable feeling and thinking, well, this growing, I'm growing from this experience.

Shannon Mattern (12:16.163)

It is so much about that. But also, I think what I find more uncomfortable is stagnation. The boredom that comes with the stagnation, I personally, and maybe this is weird, but I think we have more similar, I would much rather go through that pain and learn something about myself on the other side than stay in my comfort zone and just be like have

Pippa Tanko (12:23.406)

Mm-hmm.

Pippa Tanko (12:40.75)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (12:46.055)

have that moment that I had when I started my business, which was like, is this it? Is this all? There is? This Groundhog Day over and over and over again? No, I would much rather have to deal with myself saying horrible things to myself in my head about whatever, and then realize like, now I figured out the real problem is how I talk to myself. And I get to work on that instead of.

Pippa Tanko (12:52.748)

Yeah.

Pippa Tanko (13:05.027)

Mm.

Pippa Tanko (13:14.808)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (13:15.859)

thinking that this is how it is.

Pippa Tanko (13:19.414)

Absolutely, and I think for me, I've always been good at putting myself outside my comfort zone. And I'm not sure where that comes from. I grew up in a single parent family where I had to be quite independent from an early age because my mom worked full time. I don't know if it's the African in me because they're a little outspoken and a bit more, I don't know, tough in some ways. But I actually...

can't handle being in my comfort zone for too long because I get stagnant. So I take a break, you know, when I'm on holiday, things like that. But I've always been a bit of a daredevil. I've always, you know, as a teen or in my twenties, I was jumping off waterfalls and out of airplanes and all sorts of things. So I've always been a bit of a daredevil. And I think I enjoy that feeling of discomfort.

Shannon Mattern (14:15.377)

Yeah. you were doing family and baby portraits. Tell me about the journey from there to like brand photography and then this.

Pippa Tanko (14:27.342)

Sure. Sure. So it's really interesting, but I'll get to that. I'll tell you the journey and then I'll tell you why I think it's interesting because I, so I was doing the family and baby portrait thing and I'll be honest, I was starting to get a little bored of it. I was a bit stagnant. This was, you know, before I'd had my own children and I was spending a bit more time watching daytime TV than working as hard as I should. And

I got a call from a company that were looking to hire someone to manage one of their accounts. And they were a photography studio and they sounded super interesting. I honestly don't know how I got the job because I just lagged my way into it. But I think they could see that I'd worked in lots of service-based roles. I was really good with people. And so they hired me to manage the Howard's account on their behalf. And so that's how I ended up working.

with Harrods and helping them manage all the photography for Harrods. And I was there for three years. And then the reason why I went back to working for myself was because I had kids and building a business is much easier. You've got more flexibility to work the hours you want around the needs of your family. And so...

I think I'd always known I would go back to it when I did have kids. But I now had all this experience of working with not only Harrods, but other fashion brands and imagery. And the company that we worked for was fantastic. They gave us lots of training and we went to lots of seminars. They taught us all about branding, different types of imagery, storytelling. So as an employee, you got to just tag along to any of the trainings that you wanted, which was brilliant.

And then I had kids, so I took it a year out and then I went back part-time on some smaller fashion brands. But as I said before, I don't really like being in my comfort zone. it started to get a little bit, I don't know, just I was getting stagnant again, you know? And so I decided it was time to jump ship and start my business again. so...

Pippa Tanko (16:46.164)

I started working. I still had a bit of crossover. did still did some family babies and portraits and things. But I think the ultimate goal was always to go down the branding. But I was trying to think how can I take this experience of working with fashion brands and create a branding photography business? So I, I wasn't a strategy expert at that point. That's all.

been learned through doing courses on my own steam and learning. I think the key here is we don't feel like we're experts or leaders or whatever it is that we're trying to become until we decide to be one. And we think about what behaviors are we going to adopt that would make us that way? What skills gaps do we have that we need to fill in order

to be able to do that. It's not that we've necessarily got years and years of experience. Some people do in certain roles, but you can also learn to become an expert and then practice what you've learned and then become one. And it's also how you show up and see yourself. That's very important. And I find imagery has such a powerful link to that because often,

when we see ourselves in our images, we think, God, I really look like I know what I'm doing. And that almost becomes the proof to us that we are who we say we are, and then we start to show up differently.

Shannon Mattern (18:24.855)

my gosh, that is so powerful. I recently just had this experience where I received some feedback from a trusted colleague that's like, you talk about this topic. I'm a pricing and pricing strategy expert. For me to say that a week ago would have felt like I was lying to you, but it feels true today after receiving this feedback from her. She was like,

Pippa Tanko (18:45.56)

Mm-hmm.

Pippa Tanko (18:50.028)

Okay.

Shannon Mattern (18:54.449)

You talk about it as if you're like apologizing for your opinions on it. And if, as if you just made it up out of thin air and that it didn't, that it's like untested, unproven, and you're sorry ahead of time for saying it just in case it might not work. And she's like, and also,

what I know about you is that you've been doing this for years. I used your advice. It blew my mind. It worked for me. And I don't understand why you're so apologetic about it. And I was like, whoa. I had no idea that I wasn't owning it, that I was dismissing it, that I was hedging everything, that I was downplaying and dimming what I really know to be true.

Pippa Tanko (19:26.382)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (19:51.068)

Because of what we talked about earlier, I'm afraid to be seen as like, what if I'm seen in a light that is like, I don't know, unflattering. So if I just hedge a little bit and act like I don't really know, then you can't ever think badly about me or something.

Pippa Tanko (20:13.134)

Blame me if it doesn't work. know, blame me if it doesn't work or tell me that I'm not as good as I think I am because I never really promised that almost.

Shannon Mattern (20:17.233)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (20:22.423)

Right. And I didn't even know I was doing it. And so what you just said about the power of like brand photography to like, I feel like what you're doing for people is showing them who they really are.

Pippa Tanko (20:39.882)

Exactly. And then aligning that so that their audience sees them as they really are. Because the problem is we're so busy looking for perfect that we put out all these visuals and then our audience or the new clients meet us and we're not the same as what we're putting out there. And that is.

uncomfortable.

Shannon Mattern (21:08.907)

Yeah. And perfect is just a shield. It's just a like, if I check all the boxes I think that you expect of me, then I will keep myself safe from whatever it is I'm afraid of. And the reality is people get to have their own opinions.

Pippa Tanko (21:22.882)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (21:36.323)

not everybody needs to agree with everybody or think that you check all of their boxes. And it's okay if you don't check everybody's boxes.

Pippa Tanko (21:45.291)

Imagine how exhausting it must feel to constantly being thinking, what is my audience want from me and how can I be what they want? Why don't you just be yourself? And that is enough.

Shannon Mattern (21:52.243)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (21:59.28)

Ooh, yeah. So when someone comes to work with you, what is the process that you lead them through to figure out who they are and all of these pieces and parts while kind of staying out of that inaccurate perfectionistic portrayal of who they are?

Pippa Tanko (22:25.644)

Sure, so all of the work that I do starts with strategy. So we look at kind of where they're trying to get to. And then we actually draw a lot from their history and their story. Like where have they come from? What has made them the person that they are today? And then how can we use that information to showcase them as the person they want to be tomorrow?

And it's not that they're pretending to be who they want to be tomorrow. It's that it's helping them understand that they're already there. It's about, you know, I think often we need to portray ourselves to the market as we want to be treated. And then the market responds to that. And so it's still being ourselves. It's still drawing on our history, but we're showing up for ourselves the way we know that we can show up for the market. And I think that's where the magic happens.

Shannon Mattern (23:09.011)

Mmm.

Pippa Tanko (23:21.902)

So we do half a day of strategy, we do a lot of storytelling exercises, digging into their past, understanding their ICP, what their problems and pain points are, and then what outcomes we create for them. And then we really start to paint a picture and we look at how we create images that support all of that.

Shannon Mattern (23:45.726)

That's fascinating to me. you, by the time this episode comes out, you will have already spoken at our Simply Profitable Designer Summit, all about the visual trust engine and why great websites still fail to convert in an AI driven market. so, you know, when we're talking, I find this fascinating where you're like, let's,

show, let's tell the story of who, it's almost like you're stretching, you're helping someone to stretch into believing that they're the version of this person that they already are. But then like taking that and helping them build trust on the line in a way that they haven't been doing before. Can you tell me more about that piece and that trust building piece?

Pippa Tanko (24:41.634)

Sure, well, I think when we look at imagery for the first time, know, images have a much bigger impact on us as humans before words, before we speak, we see before we speak or before someone speaks, you know, and we are constantly reading our environment, images that we see. And if you think about it, an image will stay with you for way longer than a paragraph of text.

You know, so it's thinking about how are we showcasing who we are when we are online? How are we sharing those behind the scenes shots of ourselves and the process that we are and giving our audience a feel for what it might feel like to spend time with us, to work with us. And that trust happens in seconds when they see your visuals.

They've already made up their mind before they start reading, whether they like you, they think you're a bit of them or not. You I don't know if you've ever seen an image of though, she looks great. She, I could work with her. She looks like a lot of fun, you know? And, and that's before you've read what they're selling or what they're doing. And you can take that one step further when you're with video or even further when you actually get to meet someone in real life.

but it's kind of making that an extension into your website and your socials and trying to showcase that so that people get a feel for you before they inquire.

Shannon Mattern (26:20.21)

I feel like that is so, mean, it's, it's always been important, but like now more than ever, when so much of our experience of content online is artificial, manufactured, just a placeholder spun up that like the competitive advantage now is going to be to just

Pippa Tanko (26:48.364)

That human side, that, I mean, do you ever look at images and think, God, is that AI created or is that real? Is that an AI video or is that real? And what you're actually doing is saying, can I trust this or is it not real? And so if you are asking that question, the trust is already breaking down.

Shannon Mattern (26:49.958)

Yeah, to show up as a human.

Shannon Mattern (27:03.877)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (27:13.542)

Yeah.

Pippa Tanko (27:15.436)

And that's scary to me because if you're breaking that trust before someone's even taking that first step to get to know you more, then they're probably on the back foot already.

Shannon Mattern (27:17.837)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (27:31.218)

What are some of your favorite client stories of maybe how someone came into the brand photography process or maybe what they were doing before?

Pippa Tanko (27:47.673)

Sure. So I worked with a great agency. They're a branding and web design agency based up in Leeds. And when they started their business, there were two founders, partners. When they started their business, they both were incredibly experienced at what they do, really great at what they do. And all their visuals were about them, all about like...

how are we being perceived? We want to be perceived as incredible designers. We want to be perceived as creative. And so they had these very highly polished creative images that use lots of different colored lighting on their faces and things to give that creative edge. And they said to me that they legitimately wanted, their goal was to win competitions and showcase how amazing they were. So.

they were making it essentially all about them. And then they decided they were gonna niche and through the process of discovery and going through their story, they realized that the niche they really wanted to serve and what they were both really passionate about was about doing good. So they wanted to work with charities because of that element of working with brands that do good. But charities are really risk averse.

really down to earth people that work at charity. So this very like highly polished, highly designed image that they were portraying was actually quite off putting for them. So they just didn't have that, they weren't building that element of trust with the audience that they now served. So when they came to me, they were really looking to show the human side of their brand and show.

Now keep their personality of who they were as a business, but just make it more approachable to the charity sector. Does that answer your question?

Shannon Mattern (29:50.107)

Yeah. And I'm super curious, like what, what did those visuals end up looking like at the end of, of that, like transformation going from like their faces, all artistically lit and all of those things. Like what did, what did that, what was the vibe? What was the end?

Pippa Tanko (30:09.176)

So the N-Vibes was a lot more earthy. they're still, they're quite edgy as a brand. They are based in Leeds and I don't know if you know about Leeds in the UK, but it's very like industrial, post-industrial revolution, a lot of brick and kind of graininess and the people from that area are quite raw, but quite down to earth. So we wanted that to come across in the aesthetics. So we really brought

some warmth, but still some kind of edgy grain and brick and kind of metal and things into the locations that we chose. We actually shot on site in their office and what was really important to them was that trust element and that piece about authenticity. So we showed real working environments, real client meetings where they got permission to

maybe present a new website to a client and have permission to be me to be there kind of as a fly on the wall photographing, know, then we did their headshots and then slowly as we work together, well, we still work together, but we worked together for a year and their team started to grow and they started to employ people. And so then we continued that thread through the images of their teams. Then they moved office. So we,

told the story about the office move and started to show that new environment that they were in. And we were really looking for things that would build trust. know, like when you have an image with like maybe some foreground, like some, you're peeking through some leaves around the corner of a wall and you can see the environment, it feels like you're spying on someone. And so we wanted to include those elements to show like, this is what it looks like.

even when we don't know people are looking.

Shannon Mattern (32:02.981)

Mmm.

Pippa Tanko (32:04.418)

This is what we're like every day. This isn't a facade we put on. And so we looked at things like, how do we bring that foreground in so that it makes people feel like they are getting a sneak peek into the reality of what it's like day to day? We also looked at things like how we can use glass reflection in the images to add that element of, is what it's actually like. You're just spying on us in a meeting at a coffee shop with these clients.

And so we really thought about how we added those visual elements to tell that story because that was very important to them and their clients.

Shannon Mattern (32:43.211)

One of the things I've been hearing in the spaces that I'm in and the content I consume and the podcast I listen to is that like we are like we're in a trust recession in terms of you know businesses that primarily you know operate online.

And get a lot of business through their website. And so as you're saying all of this to me about like the strategy behind why you do what you do and the microseconds it takes for our human brain to, to look at an image and decide, is this trustworthy or is this fake or do I align with

the feeling that's being portrayed to me or do I not align with that at all? Because just as you had said earlier, you can look at a photo and be like, that's somebody that I would love to hang out with and have coffee. And you could also look at a photo and be like, that is someone that I would really not think I would enjoy hanging out with or would want to do business with. And that's different for everybody.

Pippa Tanko (34:01.662)

It is, but I think it's also so important that our brands attract people that are like us and that would see that side of us as it is to repel the ones that don't. And I think that's really powerful because I think everyone, especially a lot of businesses, so shy away from niching because they don't want to, you know, cut anyone off, but actually it's, it's quite important to cut off people that don't want to pay your rates or don't see you as a human.

Shannon Mattern (34:08.358)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Pippa Tanko (34:31.054)

or want to make you an order taker for their business. You know, they don't see you as a partner. So if you want to have that change, then that's how you need to show up for your business and in your visuals.

Shannon Mattern (34:45.554)

I love that so much because that's like the women that I work with at the Web Designer Academy, they are in that transitional stage for lack of a better way of describing it where they have been the order taker and the version of their business where I'm being hired to do this job and

What I really want is to be the partner, the leader, the one running the show. And I'm kind of stuck in this.

purgatory of not being able to really, to really shift out of that and just, you know, you're so passionate about like your presence showing these clients. Like,

Pippa Tanko (35:50.177)

and yourself, and giving yourself permission to step into that version of yourself. A lot of this stuff also comes down to mindset. I am actually amazed how much seeing yourself a certain way can help you with your mindset and help you step into that version of yourself that does show up, that does lead, that sees themselves as a partner. Because I think it starts with you.

Shannon Mattern (36:19.718)

Yeah.

Pippa Tanko (36:19.916)

and what you're putting out is what you're gonna get back. So if you don't see yourself as the leader or you don't see yourself as a partner or you want to be a partner but you haven't stepped into that version of yourself yet, then that's what you're putting out there for people or companies to pick up.

Shannon Mattern (36:41.424)

What are some of the things that you see on websites of the before people make this shift? Because I've audited thousands of web designers, creative service provider websites. And then I think back to what I had done before. But I'm curious, what are some of the things that you see that are telltale signs where you're like, this person's hiding?

They don't believe in themselves. I can just see it with.

Pippa Tanko (37:14.808)

So I think the first thing I can think of is that they're often hiding behind their work. So they're hiding behind showing the projects that they've worked on and they're not actually showing what it's like to work with them on those projects. So they're not putting their audience first. So they're not talking to the needs of their audience and appealing to that in the imagery.

they're using a lot of stock imagery. see a lot of that in the UK and a lot of the stock imagery available is us based stock photography. So it doesn't always match here in the UK. but the problem also with stock imagery is, you know, you might use some say similar stock imagery to another brand that does the same thing as you, because we are like-minded as designers. We have a certain aesthetic that we like.

And so that dilutes your authenticity and your message. So those are the things that come to mind, but I'm curious as to what you've seen given that you've audited so many sites.

Shannon Mattern (38:27.118)

of those things. I especially loved that you said like hiding behind the portfolio where it's this miss mistaken or misunderstood idea that like if I can prove to you that I have done this work for someone else and here's what it looks like.

Pippa Tanko (38:35.682)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (38:51.716)

I'm proving to you that I can actually follow through if you pay me. And my argument is that what you did for another client has literally nothing to do with what you can do for this other person. Like, can we just all agree that you have the skills? Like you're skilled, you know what buttons to push.

Pippa Tanko (39:11.242)

Yeah, it's almost become entry level now. You know, if you call yourself a designer, we expect you to be able to design.

Shannon Mattern (39:18.926)

Yes. So we don't need you to prove that. We'll just believe that. But what we need to know is, I going to feel like you take my concern seriously? Like you understand my needs? Like you're going to be a real person? Like all of the things that you said that I can like look at you and feel like I can trust you to lead me through this whole entire project.

And so there's that piece and like, if I'm going to give you thousands and thousands of dollars, which I hope you are charging that much, I want to feel from the beginning that you're the right person to do that. And so when you don't have any photos of you at all on your website and you say things like, you talk about yourself like you're a cold corporate.

agency and you say we, and it's only you and just all of these pieces, like you've, you've almost tried to erase yourself from it and it just doesn't work. It doesn't, it doesn't translate.

Pippa Tanko (40:33.518)

It's interesting the we the we thing, isn't it? Because I think sometimes we feel like we need to look bigger than we are. But actually there are cons to being bigger and there are pros to being smaller. You just have to own that, right? Being smaller means you give individual attention. You're not getting, your clients don't get passed on to someone else in the team who then there's no follow through, you know, there are pros to being one man band. I often use we because I talk from a

Shannon Mattern (40:36.614)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (40:45.84)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (40:50.556)

Mm-hmm.

Pippa Tanko (41:02.894)

point of it's me and you in terms of me and other designers, me and other creatives, because I am a creative and I, so when I talk about we, I mean us as a creative community, but when I'm talking about my business, I use I a lot. So I use we when it's kind of a collective belief.

Shannon Mattern (41:05.668)

Yes.

Shannon Mattern (41:22.31)

Yeah, or we as in, we as in me and you, the client are going to co-create this together. Yeah, so you said something earlier about like mindset is everything and it starts with you. I'm so curious to hear like some of your mindset shifts.

Pippa Tanko (41:31.565)

Yes.

Shannon Mattern (41:46.872)

along the way, because I 1000 % agree with you. It starts with us and our thoughts and all of those things.

Pippa Tanko (41:57.495)

I think for me, really, you know, I started my business as a baby and family photographer, and then I went off and had kids. And I remember going back to work the first time that we, that after having kids and thinking, my God, I'm like an alien in this environment where I'm completely different. And so you almost

your confidence takes a little bit of a knock. And then I went back to working for myself and I was in that like baby and family alongside raising kids. So it was very organic. I worked, I did a lot of newborn photography so I could work during the week and have weekends off with my family. But I didn't really see myself as a business owner at that point. It felt like a sideline thing I did.

Shannon Mattern (42:51.664)

Mm.

Pippa Tanko (42:55.256)

for some extra money to help my family. And I remember joining a mastermind actually and being in this room with all these other business owners and having total imposter syndrome and thinking, what the hell? I don't deserve to be here. But then I had a brand shoot for myself and I got the images back and I was like, you know what? I actually look like the person that I'm striving to become.

And what if I am that person right now, I just haven't stepped into that version or that belief of being that person. And what would change for me if I did step into this person I see in these images, taking photos of business owners and you know. And so I think for me that was where the first big shift came, was going from that family baby.

sideline business. I mean, I was working full-time hours just around my family. I was bringing in good money, but because it was something I was doing to support my family and alongside running a household and, you know, all the things that come with being a mother and a wife and, you know, all of those things, I didn't really see myself that way until

I still can see that photo, the first one I saw from that gallery in my head and thinking, wow, is that me? Like, that what I actually, I actually am that business. I am that business owner. And I've been in it for a good maybe eight, six, eight years at that point. So I think that was really powerful in a mindset shift for me.

Shannon Mattern (44:49.677)

So what changed then when you were like, wow, am that after what's the after?

Pippa Tanko (44:56.366)

I definitely started sharing more. I think I started sharing more of myself online. I started telling the real stories, sharing the failures, telling the uncomfortable truths. You know, not worrying if I was speaking at an event and someone shared a photo and I'm like halfway through a conversation and my mouth was wide open. You know, I used to be like, oh no, I don't want, that's not the greatest photo of me. Don't take it, you know, I want to take it down.

Shannon Mattern (45:01.572)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (45:16.176)

Yeah.

Pippa Tanko (45:25.762)

And I think I went from using maybe five images from that shoot to just sharing all of them because that is me, that is who I am. And if you don't like it, then I'm not the person for you. And I think, I don't think it was an instant thing, but I think that's where it started. And then that became the journey I was on. And I started to think about before I went to an event, before I went to a meeting, I would say to myself,

Shannon Mattern (45:42.225)

Okay.

Pippa Tanko (45:55.394)

What version of myself do I want to be for this meeting?

Shannon Mattern (46:00.402)

Mmm.

Pippa Tanko (46:01.729)

And usually it was the version kind of in the future that I believed I was capable of being. And so I would just step into that version for that meeting. And I'd say just for today, just for today, I'm going to be the successful Pippa that's winning in life and business and just for today. And then by the end of the day, I'd feel like that version.

Shannon Mattern (46:28.205)

I love that so much of like, what version do I want to be this future version of myself that I'm working towards or that I imagine? Can I just, I'll just be that.

Pippa Tanko (46:38.99)

Well, I think it's so much easier to believe the negative, right? So I'm not that version yet. Like, who am I to behave like I have, I don't know, that I am that person. And I think it's easier to listen to the self-talk that's negative rather than beg yourself up to the positive. And I have a lot of like...

Shannon Mattern (46:57.047)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah, because that negative self-talk is there to protect you. It's like, let me keep you safe. Let me keep you small. Let me keep you hidden. Let me keep you quiet.

Pippa Tanko (47:05.921)

Yes.

Pippa Tanko (47:10.95)

And I often just say thank you, but I've got this, you know, thank you for wanting to keep me safe, you know, and I have posted notes with affirmations. tend to have a different one. I have one I say in the morning and, you know, different things, but I find that has also really helped me think about who I want to be today.

Shannon Mattern (47:14.278)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (47:20.805)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (47:32.977)

So good. So tell me more about how people can connect with you, how you work with people, how you work with clients. Tell me all the things.

Pippa Tanko (47:48.175)

Sure, so the best place where I show up the most is LinkedIn. Peppertanko, you can find me on LinkedIn. And I have a website for people who want to check out my work. It has also got some photos of me, but it's in the process of being updated. So that's andpip.co.uk. And then I've also got a brand present scorecard for anyone who's thinking, well,

I'm not sure how I'm showing up or how I'm being perceived to my audience or how my visuals are looking or how my brand is coming across. Really just to give you bit of clarity on where you are and where the gaps are and where you need to plug or if there's anything you need to do, then that would probably be the best first step. But I love chatting to people. I'm...

Like I reached out to you, I use LinkedIn really as a networking platform. So reach out to me in the DMs, let's start a conversation. I'm always happy to chat and give advice and jump on a call.

Shannon Mattern (48:55.313)

Amazing. So I have just one last question for you before we wrap up. And I ask this to everyone that comes on the show. And that is what belief about yourself did you have to change to get to where you are today?

Pippa Tanko (49:11.886)

This is a tough question. What belief about myself did I have to change to get to where I am today?

Pippa Tanko (49:24.376)

This is kind of a deep one. And I think the belief I had to change was that you don't have to be clever. And this is a deep rooted belief in my childhood. I come from a very academic family and I was the only creative. And so I think I spent my whole life complicating things to try and be perceived as clever in order.

Shannon Mattern (49:42.897)

Mm.

Pippa Tanko (49:51.372)

to grow and I think when I accepted that just being creative was enough, that changed everything for me. And so I still say that mantra to myself today. you don't have to be clever to be good at what you do.

Shannon Mattern (50:09.835)

that is so good. I just had a conversation with someone this morning on one of our strategy calls inside of our program where she very similarly to what you just said, she was like, when I get to a concept and it was too easy and it was too simple.

Then I find myself questioning myself because it couldn't have been that easy. I couldn't have come up with the concept that easy. So that's not good enough. There needed to have been some struggle, some toil, some extra hard work attached to that. And then she's like, and then I spend more time than I would like to spend.

And I come back around to the original concept, but it's only acceptable if I have gone through this whole rigmarole to like make sure. Yeah.

Pippa Tanko (51:14.478)

Perfection, right? To the perfection. It's that like over perfection and then realizing that actually it was good enough to begin with.

Shannon Mattern (51:23.215)

Yeah, because the creativity is your superpower and your instincts are good and you can trust them. And it doesn't need to be this whole process that someone else said it had to be for the concept to be. So I love that. That is beautiful.

Pippa Tanko (51:27.15)

Yeah.

Pippa Tanko (51:37.966)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so true. think that's very common as well. I think there are a lot of creatives that keep over planning, over working, and then coming back to realizing that actually what they started off with was good enough.

Shannon Mattern (52:00.145)

Yeah, or thinking that like their process that they came up with somehow because someone else didn't say that this is the process of creativity in this way that like they don't trust the output of their own creative process because it's not what other people do or say to do or how they're doing it. And it just

Pippa Tanko (52:11.789)

Mm-hmm.

Pippa Tanko (52:22.594)

Yeah, but how great that it's not like anybody else, right?

Shannon Mattern (52:25.463)

Yeah, that's your magic.

Pippa Tanko (52:29.322)

Yeah, exactly.

Shannon Mattern (52:32.465)

It's been so lovely to talk to you about all of this. Thank you so much for being here, for reaching out, speaking at the Simply Profitable Designer Summit. Let everybody know again where they can go to find you and connect with you.

Pippa Tanko (52:52.96)

Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me, Shannon. It's been so much fun. I've loved talking to you. And as I said before, LinkedIn is the best place to reach me. My name is Pippa Tanko. So drop me a DM or have a look at my brand presence scorecard, which is on there. But yeah, thanks so much for having me.

Shannon Mattern (53:11.867)

Thank you so much for being here. We'll see you all back here next week. Bye everyone.