#211 – Why Your Web Design Business Systems Aren’t Working with Diana Wei Fang

Shannon Mattern (00:01.218)

Well, hello everyone, and welcome back to the Profitable Web Designer podcast. And today I am joined by Diana Wei Fong, who is the founder of The Finer Points and is a system architect dedicated to helping purpose-driven entrepreneurs build businesses that last. Diana, welcome to the Profitable Web Designer.

Diana |

The Finer Points (00:19.51)

Diana, to Profitable Web Designer. I am so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me. This is so much fun.

Shannon Mattern (00:26.936)

So we met because one of our mutual clients, Kim, introduced us. And she told me that I needed to invite you onto the Simply Profitable Designer Summit. She's like, you have to meet Diana. She is the best. and so we met and you came and you spoke at the summit and your energy was just contagious. And after I got to like hang out with you on a panel, I was like, I need to.

meet her and talk to her more and get to know her better. So what better way to do that than having you on the podcast? So yeah, I'm I'm so excited that you're here.

Diana |

The Finer Points (01:03.906)

We all need Kim's. I'm so excited. And thank you, Kim, for introducing us because we do have so much fun. I was just telling Shannon before we hit record that I feel like she brings out the more she definitely gets to see the more like spastic side of me. So can't wait.

Shannon Mattern (01:16.024)

Ha ha

so good. So let's let's go back. Well tell first, tell everybody more about you and what you do at the finer points.

Diana |

The Finer Points (01:29.208)

Okay, so I help people with foundational systems. for me, I started and I went to college as an arts management. And so I've worked with creatives me whole laugh. Like my whole adult life, I have worked with creatives. And just I understand their brain. I was a music major, I totally get where they're coming from.

But then I was just noticing patterns and trends as I was figuring out what I was gonna do for the rest of my life that a lot of creatives really struggle with logistics and invoicing. And graduating college, I realized that a lot of my friends weren't landing jobs or gigs because they weren't very good at invoicing or responding to emails.

And that was something I was very good at, you know, and I was I knew how to do that well. And I just didn't realize it could become a full time thing. and just being able to really articulate that it would it had nothing to do with their talent, but yet they were internally like, I am a terrible musician. I can't, I can't make it in the big time. My parents invested all this money in me.

And then, you know, I would just be like, well, how can we help? You know, how can we get you some more connections and network? And they're doing all these things. But really, their inbox was where it was at. Right. I would just open their email and be when's the last time you checked your email, man? And they're like, I I don't know. Yeah. You know, so like it's not and the and the whole time it's so internalized. Like, I'm a horrible business owner. I'm a horrible creator. I'm a hor I can't do this. I have to get a job, waiting tables or something like that.

and so that's sort of how it all happened. I went on through my normal corporate life and came back from a solid job in Hong Kong. And I didn't know what to do when I came back to the States because they had hired a local, which is great. I we wanted that for them. And I just was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do. And, you know, a friend very similar to people like Kim, who, you know, is a mutual friend and how that's how we got connected.

Diana |

The Finer Points (03:46.028)

was like, I don't understand how you don't have your own thing yet. You know? And I just was like, what would I do? She's what you do now. You know, so that's how it all started. And as now what I do is I help creatives work with their systems, figure out how it's customizable to their brains and make it so that they can actually use it and they'll check it. And from there it's grown. Now I can help you with scaling and hiring and then restructuring your system to include new team members. And so

I've intentionally built my s my business so that I can be with someone on and off again, not continuously, but essentially like for the first twenty years of your business. And that is just really meaningful to me.

Shannon Mattern (04:29.369)

I love that so much. And, you know, how you saw your own superpower. and also just like looking at other people and saying, like, like the problem that you're experiencing, you think it's this, you think it's something about you, but it's that you're missing a tool, and please let me help you with that tool. I resonate with that so much because

I see that with the web designers that listen to this show. It's like they think that especially when it comes to like pricing, marketing, and sales, they think they're bad at business when they're just missing some key strategies and tools and systems that when you put that in place, it just makes it like the sky is blue. These things are not, this doesn't mean anything about you.

Diana |

The Finer Points (05:25.72)

mean anything about you. You just didn't have the correct. Yes. Yes. And our brains are all just wired so differently that we see and notice different things. You know, like one of the softwares that I use, I use Honeybook pretty heavily and I get to work with the engineers. And I have noticed that like their brains are wired differently too. You know, like they'll say like, I don't I don't see a drop shadow. You know, like one of my biggest questions for them was like why

Shannon Mattern (05:27.167)

You just didn't have the correct tool.

Diana |

The Finer Points (05:54.156)

Why is there a Dropbox shadow on our forms? You know, when they put and they're like, Where? They just don't see it because they look at code all day long. And so for me, I was just like, Do you not, do you not see this? No, no? Okay. And so I literally put like a red marker on the screen. And I was like, there's a Dropbox shadow here. You know. But I just have noticed that, like, that doesn't mean that they're dumb or that they can't be good at what they do. They just, everyone's.

brain is just so different. And how do I help you maximize your superpowers, you know?

Shannon Mattern (06:28.659)

Mm, yeah. So when you were encouraged by your, you know, people in your network who wanted to, you know, you're like, I don't know what to do. They're like, do more of this. Why aren't you doing this? How did you start to kind of put yourself out there, let people know what you were doing? How did you get those initial clients in the beginning?

Diana |

The Finer Points (06:55.156)

tacos and margaritas is the short answer.

Shannon Mattern (07:00.577)

Tell me more, tell me more.

Diana |

The Finer Points (07:05.485)

Literally didn't know what to do. And my friend who was a photographer said, Come over. And she made a huge taco bar at her house with margaritas. And we basically sat down on a couch with a bunch of girlfriends and gabbed over tacos and margaritas with the intent of saying, Diana needs to start a business. What do we do with that? by the end of the night, we came up with the finer points, the name of it, and threw together like a

Canva logo that I made just on my phone. and said, you know what, we're not gonna obsess over this stuff. It's gonna change in like six months. And I was so nervous. I didn't even know if I was gonna last six months. You know what I mean? Like, and then I bought the domain name and it was like, Do you want to buy it for five years or do you wanna buy it for 10 years? And I was like, Can I buy it for like six months? Is that a thing? Like, you know, like, what do you mean? Do I wanna buy it for ten years?

And so it just was like one of those things that I started my business with and did everything in under $500. And by truly, like I did it all from the couch with these girlfriends, made the decisions, and then we left and I had a business, you know. And the next day they told their friends and I posted on Facebook and started teaching.

I had been teaching a a lot of virtual assistants through a different school at the time. And so I had an idea of like who to market to and what what to say. But I just made a Facebook post and said, I'm gonna start a business. And that afternoon, a small business friend of mine reached out and said, she's We've been looking for someone like you. And I didn't even know what I was gonna offer. I just was like,

Diana |

The Finer Points (08:57.142)

and that was my first client and it just kicked off and I just, you know, eventually changed the logo and go and eventually colors and all that stuff. But it just just get it out there, you know, and just do it. And that that's essentially what started. yeah, and that's how we got it.

Shannon Mattern (09:16.119)

I I love that story so much because when I first started my wet freelance web design business way back in 2014, like the first client happened by accident because a vendor had said to me, Hey, who built your website? Like this was at my day job. He had like called. We were chatting about something else. He's I've been meaning to ask you who built your website because I need to I need someone. And I was like, that was me. He's like, Do you do any work on the side? And I was like,

Okay. and then after then I told that story to someone else and they were like, my god, my dad's been looking for someone. And then I was at the gym and a a girl that I had just started chit-chatting with, she was like, so what do you do for a living? And I'm like, I'm a marketing and communications person and and I do some freelance web design on the side. And she was like, my gosh, we've been looking for someone. I didn't have

Website, I didn't have a business, I didn't have anything. I was just telling people. And then somewhere along the way, I thought that to be professional, quote unquote, I need to market in a different way. I needed to like have my website all done and be professional on social media and have all of these things and that.

Diana |

The Finer Points (10:13.326)

I didn't have a business, I didn't have anything. I was just telling people. And then somewhere along the way, I thought that to be

market in a different way. I needed to like have my website all done and be professional on social media and have all of these things

Shannon Mattern (10:42.165)

just talking to people and meeting them and asking them questions and telling them what I did like wasn't good enough. And so for me, I would like put all this time, effort, and energy into all these like trendy online marketing things. When what was really working for me behind the scenes is that all my clients were still coming from word of mouth and referrals. So I'm curious like what your experience was after like

Diana |

The Finer Points (10:44.022)

To people and meeting them and asking them questions and telling them what I did like wasn't good enough. And so for me, I would like put all this time, effort, and energy into all these like trendy online marketing things. When what was really working for me behind the scenes is that all my clients were still coming from word of mouth and referrals. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (11:12.139)

those early days of like, yeah, like my friends told their friends, told their friends, did you how did your marketing evolve from there?

Diana |

The Finer Points (11:23.914)

I had a very different experience because I started my business in the age. I don't know if you remember this, but like a couple years ago, there was like a huge surge of like MLMs. Do you remember? Everyone was selling. Yes. Yes.

Shannon Mattern (11:39.917)

for sure, yes. Didn't all of us get recruited in at one point to like being in an MLM? I sold makeup for a hot minute in my early twenties. Yeah. And I was terrible at it, by the way.

Diana |

The Finer Points (11:50.209)

Yes, yes. And it was like a resurgence. Yeah. I sold cut co knives. also very terrible at that. Terrible. Couldn't tell you a thing about it.

Shannon Mattern (11:57.172)

Okay. Yeah.

Diana |

The Finer Points (12:04.192)

It just keeps falling. Here we are.

Diana |

The Finer Points (12:10.558)

yes. So I started my business around the time of I would say when a resurgence of MLMs came. It was wild. And so everyone was super like LulaRoe and Wheels. And there's a makeup company that did it. And it was just like it was more than Mary Kay. It was just

Shannon Mattern (12:22.014)

Okay.

Shannon Mattern (12:28.863)

Mm.

Diana |

The Finer Points (12:35.242)

Ever I felt like everyone under the sun was throwing some form of Tupperware party of some kind. And so then I started my business and everyone was like, all of my friends and family were like, we don't want another thing.

Shannon Mattern (12:50.967)

Mm.

Diana |

The Finer Points (12:52.334)

So that was actually interesting. So I started a second Instagram account so that they could have piece of like, they were just like, we're gonna unfollow you if you like promote your stuff. So that was really, really different for me because they thought it was gonna be like MLM. Like they didn't know what I was doing fully. They just knew that I started a business and they knew that I was good at what I did. And once that initial week was over.

Shannon Mattern (13:02.215)

Mm.

Diana |

The Finer Points (13:21.012)

that was, you know, that was the thing. So I I just got really, I don't know, lucky, blessed, all of the above, you know. And on day two, I reached out to Honeybook and it was back in the day when they were still picking up the phone. And everyone just kept saying, You have to use Honeybook, you have to use Honey Book. And I said, I don't know what that is.

And I couldn't tell what it was. And so I picked up the phone and I called them. And we ended up having the best conversation. We were instant BFFs and hung up the phone, and I was already their partner. They introduced me to everyone immediately. And it just it just was so easy to learn that I started teaching it to other people really fast. I mean, like we're talking.

less than a month, I was like all in. And then at the time they had a community called the Rising Tide Society. And so then I was part of the Rising Tide. Yep. So I was part of Rising Tide. I was part of the board and all these things. And so I was on leadership. I had the local groups, but I just picked up on Honeybook so fast. And I loved it so much for creatives. And it was so easy for me to teach it.

Shannon Mattern (14:25.387)

Mm-hmm. I've heard of it.

Diana |

The Finer Points (14:45.571)

That we have just become lifelong friends. truly, there's not anyone at Honeybook who isn't a friend, you know? And I think that just made it really natural for us to just sort of refer each other. And then when the pandemic hit, they reached out to me as a friend and they just said, How are you doing? How, how, what's going on? What do you need? You know, and to be fair,

As soon as the pandemic hit within 24 hours, they called me and said, Can you help us help all these small businesses? You know, and so I was up I mean, it was like a marathon of no sleep, just kind of helping all these small businesses like mitigate what to do, how to talk to their clients, like how do we come up with templates to help you? And then when all that storm was over, they called me and they said, How are you doing? And I just said, you know, I'm hoping people like realize this is a gift to be able to work on your system.

because at some point this will lift and all those weddings are gonna come back. And are you ready for all of that? Do you know how to navigate that rush? Do you know how to fit in all of these weddings that are now gonna be compact into a very short amount of time? And I said, okay. You know, I I thankfully am not event based. and so they they basically said, Okay, we have a great idea from this conversation. We'll call you back in 24 hours.

And I said, okay, cool. And 24 hours later, they did. They called me back and they're like, How would you feel about being our Honey Book Pro? And I said, What is that? And they're like, We don't know, but we just feel like, you know, we know that you know this so well and we trust you so much. And so we'll figure this out together, but we just want to make sure you're not folding under this chaos. And that was the birth of the Honey Book Pro program. And I was the first one. And so it just was like it started relationship first.

yeah, and I have asked the CEO many times like, how do you hire a full company of humans in whom all are really well liked and loved and they're so close, right? And are also talented. Like, how do you manage that? he doesn't know. I don't know, but I don't know what the secret is. But every single person at Honeybuck is just so lovely that I just was like, okay, I I can do this, right? I can manipulate, and and my business is not.

Diana |

The Finer Points (17:10.265)

Honey book necessarily, even though we're talking about them so much. My business still is your system. How do I customize this so that you can learn it easily without me having to build something from the ground up and it doesn't cost you 20 grand, right? Like in an affordable way, how do you keep going? and over time just realizing like small business fail rate is 90% a year. And so how do we keep going? Right? And so, like,

Even just like some I went to a conference last year and he showed the statistic that in 19, I'm gonna get this wrong. 1919, if I remember the year right, the average lifespan of a small business was 91 years. And so a lot of people, when we talk to small business owners, were like, I want to leave a legacy for my family. But in 2010, they redid the survey, and the average lifespan of a small business.

It's fourteen years.

What legacy are we leaving behind? Because we're we're folding, we're quitting, we don't know how to scale well. We don't have the system to do it well. We're kind of making this up on our own. Like we talked so much about that today, even, you know, and so I just knew that there was a better way. And there's just like all of I believe with every fiber of my being that change in the world, systemic change in the world is going to come from a small business.

Shannon Mattern (18:21.92)

Mm-hmm.

Diana |

The Finer Points (18:38.155)

It's going to be a small business owner that comes up with a better way to serve students in the education system and then the education system adopts it. Right. It's going to be a small business owner who comes up with a new way for hospitals to run. It's going to be a small business owner that's going to figure out the airline situation. Like it, it's going the idea of it is going to come from a small business owner because they think outside the box. But I need you to keep going. And so if you don't have a good system and you can't scale well, then we lose that.

And to me it that's detrimental. And so

Shannon Mattern (19:13.32)

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm just like I couldn't agree with you more. And I think the thing that you said earlier, you were like, I picked up the phone and I like initiated a relationship with a potential partner. And you were really open to whatever that was gonna look like and how could it be

How could it be mutually beneficial for both of you? And it has turned into something that neither of you really could have expected. but is is like a win-win-win all the way around. A win for you, a win for Honeybook, a win for for your mutual clients. And I teach, we teach outreach marketing around here. We teach relationship building. We don't teach

One-to-many impersonal social media mark marketing content creation. Not to say that that can't work or doesn't work. I'm sure it works for a lot of people. But like you just demonstrated, like a few key deep, trustworthy, sincere, authentic relationships can feed your business and just create so much more value for.

Diana |

The Finer Points (20:33.332)

And just create

Shannon Mattern (20:37.648)

everyone involved than you constantly hustling to like prove that you're worthy on Instagram or like whatever we're all doing. So I love that story and I want to ask more about

When business owners come to you, how do you start working together? Like, why do they come to you? What do you do first? How do you how do you help get their systems in place? And like, what does that do for them? Cause I think people think they have systems or like like, yeah, I know that like when this happens, I have to do this, or like whatever. They understand, like, when I get a client, I need to send them an invoice. But like, tell me more about like

What do you do for them?

Diana |

The Finer Points (21:27.289)

I think that is true. Everyone has a system of some kind. Even if you just operate off of post-its, it's a system. Like in your brain, you can figure out how it works. I think how people are attracted to me is that I believe that your small business should last more than six months, even though I wasn't sure about that too. You know what I mean? But like it works super well until it doesn't.

Shannon Mattern (21:46.838)

Yeah. Same.

Shannon Mattern (21:53.024)

Yeah.

Diana |

The Finer Points (21:53.391)

And I think what I am hoping to just preach to the whole world, not like in a churchy way, but like just tell the whole world is just if you can get ahead of it, if you can think about your business and your dream and assume that it works.

What would you do with that? Right? How what does your business look like and how does it impact the world? Because in order to achieve that, what are you going to need first? Even it doesn't matter if you come to me the first six months or if you come to me at year 10. It doesn't matter. But ultimately, when the pain point that someone reaches is they realize they can't scale. Right? This, everything lives inside your head.

Exactly how you want it done is going to live inside your head. Exactly what's supposed to come first, second, or third is going to live inside your head. It's going to be on the post-it and and and you naturally know how to serve your clients so well. However, where the friction comes in is you can't do it alone forever. Right? Entrepreneurship is not meant to be alone ever. and

Part of that is inviting someone along into the mess. Into now you have to tell a second hire, perhaps a first hire, to say, well, that information lives on this post-it note here in my in my house, but you live you know, in a different state. So if you could read this post-it note and read my mind, that'd be excellent. And and I think that's when people start to like really,

They come to me because they're like, well, we need help, but I don't want someone to see my mess. Can you clean it up before that happens? And part of it is I encouraged a the mess. I love that. But two is it is so hard to standardize something that has been in your brain for so long. And that's what I do a lot of work with. We systematize and standardize what they've been doing.

Shannon Mattern (23:46.334)

Mm.

Diana |

The Finer Points (24:09.355)

Not in a robotic way, but in order for things to be standardized, you have to make some pre-decisions. And that's going to free up a lot of brain space in the long run for you. And it's going to offer your clients consistent consistency from you, the business owner, right? Like if you're still running word of mouth the way that you teach Shannon to everyone who listens to this podcast, that's amazing. However,

Referral A should get the same experience as referral B. They should not have different experiences just because it's May December and kids are out of school and graduation and you don't have time to deliver that same level of experience and expertise. And the only way to get there is by systematizing and by standardizing what you do. So that A, you can hire someone else and explain to them your systems and process.

And they can do it the way that you do. And that is really hard. I acknowledge that a hundred percent. That is really, really hard to say to someone, I I know that this doesn't make sense, but it's not it makes sense. And I think where people get lost is that they think that by standardizing something, it loses the edge of where they are in the market. When that could be further from the truth. So I think why people would come to me is A, I'd like to customize. I think that's really fun. I think it I get I love

Customizing something that just works for your brain. Like I reference Honey Book a lot, but you don't have to use Honey Book. It just has to work for you. I don't care what you do. I don't care if you still stick with your post-it thing. It has to work for your brain. Right. So a lot of people will hire me for calendaring and for systematizing and for also just like strategic planning. but if you have a dream and you know it's gonna change the world, how do we get you to keep going? That is the end of the day.

The question, right? So I think that's a lot of why people would come to me. it's just fun and I try to break it down to where in a way that I get like I get them to practice it in front of me too. I really hold your feet to the fire. So if you come to me, I'm gonna be like, okay, do it in front of me right now. I need to see that it works for you, right? And it's less about trying to get them to adapt to something that's not gonna work for them. And they're just like, no, if I just learned something new, if I just tried something new, it'll eventually do it.

Diana |

The Finer Points (26:30.223)

It's not gonna work. You're gonna default back to what you've been doing because you get slammed, you get busy, it's busy season. You're gonna default back to it. So it doesn't, if it doesn't come natural to you, it's not useful. sure, there are some habits that I'd like to break, like invoice someone immediately, invoice them before you do the work for them, things like that. Yep.

Shannon Mattern (26:51.304)

Nodding my head vigorously, everyone listening who can't see me.

Diana |

The Finer Points (26:57.121)

Yeah, invoicing before you deliver on a service. That I would like to break that habit. but that has that's not like that's not like they can't learn it. You know what I mean? That's just that's a different that's just confidence, yeah.

Shannon Mattern (27:14.13)

One of the things that I see happen really often, especially with the web designers that I meet and work with, is that they jump from system to system, tool to tool to tool to tool, like notion, Trello, Asana, whatever, honeybook, the Sado, like and they just hop from tool to tool to tool. Trying to

Like find the one that's gonna solve all of their problems. But what I see is that hopping becomes a problem in and of itself, and that they're not really getting to the core issue of like what's going on that is making them want to leave this tool and go to that tool because that tools that tool is gonna solve all of their discomfort.

So you're nodding vigorously. I'm super curious what your thoughts are and your perspective is on that.

Diana |

The Finer Points (28:17.935)

Yeah.

Diana |

The Finer Points (28:23.739)

Try really hard not to rant.

Shannon Mattern (28:25.398)

Give me your best rant.

Diana |

The Finer Points (28:31.331)

Okay, just gonna Yes, I cannot agree with you anymore. I I it's such a waste of time. Like you are trying to change the world. You've got things to do. You've got a family, you've got friends to take care of. How can you be on social media and tell me how busy you are, how you haven't slept in days, haven't had water, and yet here you are hopping from platform to platform. There is not a single text.

Shannon Mattern (28:40.854)

Mm. Yes.

Diana |

The Finer Points (29:00.207)

Software out there that is going to make it easy for you to leave. Not one. Not one. And therefore, every time you hop, you are manually taking something out, copying it onto a common document, and then repasting and learning a brand new software because you won't address the root issue. You are literally just

Hoping that someone solves your problem for you. And by default, you give away the power of the of why your business is the way it is. You are letting a software, something without a brain, make decisions on your behalf. And you are hoping that they will make you successful. And that has nothing to do with software at all. It has no brain. It doesn't have your pizzazz. It doesn't have the reason why you started it to begin with.

I can rant all day.

Shannon Mattern (29:59.233)

Keep going, keep going.

Diana |

The Finer Points (30:01.633)

What it comes down to is again, you don't know how to standardize your business and you do not understand how to make the predecisions, which is why people come to me, right? it's literally like staring at a blank piece of paper and saying, What can you do for me, paper? Can you help me solve the world problems today? You know, and and really just expecting for the paper to talk back at you.

Any software is a blank canvas with so much possibility, which is why we crave buying templates. Have you ever noticed this? Like this is a trend. Buy a template, buy a template, buy a template, buy a template. And they make bank of these seven dollar templates. And you know what? I my website is a template, so I am grateful. However, buying a template is not going to solve your inherent problem that you don't know how to.

Shannon Mattern (30:40.339)

yeah.

Diana |

The Finer Points (30:58.849)

You don't understand the decisions you have to make. So when they work with me, I ask really uncomfortable questions, but I'm sitting with you. So I'm not just sending you home. You have to like sit on Zoom with me and talk it out. And I'm here for that, you know? And I think probably by the time of this podcast, I'm about to cross over to 4,000 clients at this point. And that also means that I've seen a lot of different models and a lot of different ways and personalities. And so

Shannon Mattern (31:20.224)

my gosh.

Diana |

The Finer Points (31:29.337)

Part of that, there's no wrong answer. And I will say this: there's not a single web designer that runs their business the same way. Even if they come from your school and they've all learned the same tactics, right? There's no there's no one that runs their business the same way. Correct. Which is why my job is so fun. It's not a copy and paste thing. It's there's no standardized way, but that's what we crave when we buy a template. We want, tell me what's right. Tell me, affirm me, and say that the decisions I need to make.

Shannon Mattern (31:35.094)

Yeah, yep. Yep.

Shannon Mattern (31:41.29)

And and they shouldn't.

Diana |

The Finer Points (31:58.871)

Are right. I am looking for someone to tell me that my that my thought process is correct. When what I need from you as a small business owner, and the reason you're a small business owner and the reason you don't work for corporate is because you think differently. And somewhere along the way, we get so scared of being different that we try to conform ourselves, right? And say, give me.

The email template, give me what to what do I say here to my client? And I get that a lot. I'll get someone that comes to me and I'll say, okay, we're gonna make a contact form. And they'll say, What should I have in my contact form? You know, and I'm just like, well, what do you what do you need to determine if you want to work with this client, yes or no? And suddenly that breaks them out of their trance, right? Because, I do know if I can get them to tell me how they do.

How they would deliver. They can do that all day long. They're so good at that. And somewhere along, like formalizing or being legit or whatever, it somehow meant that we are needing to fit into this software, right? And but if you don't know what you want, there's not a single software that can solve that for you. If you don't understand

why and how you want to run your business, no software can answer that for you. We can try our best. But then now I'm running your business, not you. Right? Now I'm the one making that decision for you and not you. And and that's where you're gonna go with that. What are you gonna do with it? I'm doing this, someone people will come to me and be like, I I don't know. I'm just saying it because someone told me to do that. Well do you want to do that?

Shannon Mattern (33:36.98)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (33:51.623)

Mm-hmm. And it doesn't feel aligned to me and I don't like it. And it feels kind of gross. Or it doesn't actually work with my life or how I want to run my business or my vision or my values. But somebody told me that it would work and it's the right thing to do. Yeah.

Diana |

The Finer Points (33:54.863)

No!

Diana |

The Finer Points (34:07.737)

So then they immediately they're gonna sit there and spend the next four months coming off of one software and then paying for another one and copying and paste. And then, by the way, now you're running two systems. And you have some clients on one and some clients on another, and you have to learn two different things. I don't have time for this. I I don't know about you. I don't have that kind of time. And so

I think, but there's also, I would say, like, I don't want to scare someone who when like some are harder to learn than others. And I don't want to scare someone to say like changing is wrong. That's not what I'm saying. But what I think the original question you asked me was, we're just gonna go where the wind blows because they have a discount right now, or because they have a new feature that the other one just hadn't had time to build or release yet. Quite honestly.

They're all within weeks of each other and they're all building the same thing and they're all going to like just give it a minute and they will catch up because they're not gonna let their competitor beat them. And so just give it a second. I think we've lost the ability to let someone do something well, you know? Like I want it right now. Someone else has it, and I want it right now and where I am. And so our impatience cuts off the ability to do something well. for

Anything. And and I think even for web designers too, like I think a lot of people will say, Well, I don't I don't want to wait for you to design it.

And so it's like, how do you communicate what you do? And this is part of that standardization that I try to like extract out of your brain when I'm working with you is through the follow up process, we're going through that together. And what's the strategy and how often all of that compacts into who you are as a business owner? And it changes the game.

Shannon Mattern (35:59.202)

as you were talking, I send this coffee mug to everybody that joins the Web Designer Academy. It says Blaze Your Own Trail. And in our program, I absolutely will teach pricing strategy. I'll teach boundary setting frameworks. And, you know, I've I've helped thousands of web designers. I see the places where they all get stuck.

Diana |

The Finer Points (36:06.179)

Love it.

Shannon Mattern (36:29.057)

And I say we're platform agnostic around here. Like I am not gonna tell you which software you should build your systems in. And I'm also not going to tell you that my systems are the only systems that work and that you need to do it this way. And I I you hit you hit on something that I think like

Is kind of problematic within our industry of of thought leaders like me and other people saying, like, I found this way that's that works. and I'm gonna teach you this way that works. And then somehow along the way, it's like, well, I'm gonna follow what someone else says works, and what I think and what works for me doesn't get to come into play anymore. So I need to just

Do what someone else says works and follow, follow the formula. And then if I follow the formula exactly and I build it into the tool, well, then the tool will take care of all of it for me. And so it's the tool plus someone else's proven system. If I just put those two things together, then success is automatic. And that is not how that works. And so the reason I'm like, blaze your own trail is like.

It will not work if it's not aligned with you, you, your vision, your values, your business, why you're doing this thing. If something is deeply incompatible with with you as a person or something in your subconscious that doesn't feel safe or doesn't like the thing that you're doing, it's not gonna work. That is why some strategies work for some people and don't work for others. And so, like you said, you're putting all of this.

Diana |

The Finer Points (38:09.964)

feel safe or doesn't like the thing that you're doing, it's not gonna

Shannon Mattern (38:24.117)

Pressure on a blank piece of paper to do the thing for you. And then you're almost like delegating your authority to other people, other experts, other thought leaders, other where you blaze your own trail. You are smart. You are brilliant. You know how you want to work with clients. You know that like some things I talk about.

Diana |

The Finer Points (38:32.309)

your authority to other people.

Shannon Mattern (38:52.061)

Are gonna work really well for you. Some things you're like, that doesn't really align with me. Take what works, leave what doesn't, build your own thing. And it sounds to me like what you do, Diana, is you really help pull that out of people, standardize it, build something that works for them, instead of being like, well, come to work with me at the finer points. I have the proven system. I'm gonna cookie-cutter you through this. And what once I've got this set up for you, it's just like.

You just have to it runs on autopilot and you don't have to like put your brain into it at all. I'm gonna you know, it's just like we have got to reclaim our ability to believe that whatever we wanna do is gonna work for us and not delegate our authority to somebody else or a tool.

Diana |

The Finer Points (39:41.487)

not delegate our authority to somebody else or yeah and i don't know that we understand that we're giving away our power like i don't know that we cognitively are clocking you know that by saying tell me what to do because i don't that's not how it happens right how it happens is someone gets on social media and is like i booked six figures in

Shannon Mattern (39:55.55)

Yeah.

Diana |

The Finer Points (40:09.055)

In one day, based on this formula, right? And now this is where you what you're saying is true. We have to be rooted in our purpose. What is the point of your business? Why do you want to do this? Because that's you're getting distracted by shiny things. I call it shiny object syndrome to my clients. We have shiny object syndrome, right? Like, my gosh, I can make six figures. And when you're in a moment of desperation, again, like.

Shannon Mattern (40:28.03)

Yep.

Diana |

The Finer Points (40:36.973)

There there's no judgment here. I understand. I I do. I understand it. I did not grow up with money. I still don't have money, you know. Like I I I understand it. But when we're chasing that, you have given away your sparkle. You've given away your power of what this business was supposed to be. And so

Shannon Mattern (40:39.091)

Yep, none.

Diana |

The Finer Points (41:03.765)

I do think that we are in a time in place in history where systemic change is coming. Right. And and I again, I believe the systemic change is coming from a small business owner. I do, with every fiber of my being. It's going to be your brilliant idea, and you can't let someone water it down and dilute it down. Right. And so part of that is like holding on to that belief. it's hard day to day. I totally get it. It's so hard.

I, you know, I gave away free email templates at your conference and I almost didn't do it. But I was just trying to think through like, how do I help you? how do I help small business owners really execute this easily? And so I just tried to like find a happy medium of like the templates I'm giving you, it's I prompt you more than I give you the words. but even so.

Shannon Mattern (41:49.235)

Yeah.

Diana |

The Finer Points (42:00.641)

We want the answer from someone else so badly that, you know, statistically I was looking at that because I really want to give out these templates more and I was thinking of a course.

Diana |

The Finer Points (42:14.891)

I don't know what to do, quite honestly, because 50% of people don't even open the free things that they're given. Cause they think it's gonna answer everything. And so part of me understands that and I don't wanna be deceiving about it, but also it really helps some people, right?

Shannon Mattern (42:23.359)

Mm-hmm.

Diana |

The Finer Points (42:37.205)

And and so this is my constant tension of just like, do I do it or do I not? Because some people don't have time to attend live sessions and they have to like listen and they do listen, but three percent of them listen. And so you're doing it for the three percent, but also I just want to say, like, we've got to get to a place where you know what you need and you trust it.

And blinders on, do not have shiny object syndrome, run your lane. And I think even now in the world of AI, my gosh. In the world of AI, we take other people's prompts and we like want it for ourselves. And as someone who's been playing with AI heavily, like creating agents and doing all these things, like at the end of the day, it comes back to what you and I have been saying this entire podcast.

Shannon Mattern (43:11.933)

Mm.

Diana |

The Finer Points (43:28.841)

If you are not clear about your business, there is not a single AI that is going to help you. They are brainless. They just make you think that they have a brain, but it's been programmed that way. You have to run your business the way that only you can. And that's why you started it. Right. And so I don't know. I just yeah, I don't have a perfect answer, but I just hope that people who work with me that there's some sense of relief and

customizing it to their personality types, I think, has been successful. You know, I don't usually get anyone that comes back with their systems fully dismantled, so so it works, I think.

Shannon Mattern (44:11.409)

Yeah. I could talk to you for hours about this and I was just like, just scratching the surface of like AI is just gonna like tell you what you want to hear. Even when you ask it to not tell you what you want to hear, it's still gonna like and and it doesn't have nuance. It doesn't like there's things that it's fantastic at. There's things that I think it's going to get better at. but

You get to be your own thought leader for your business. Nobody else has the answers but you. And I think that I I love how you're like you're creating when you work with your clients, you create the space for them to think through those things, maybe in a way that they've never thought through them before and build systems that support the life and the vision and the legacy that they want, instead of having them

basically like start over every single the cost of starting over with your systems is astronomical, not just in the the time that you're spending doing it. That's time stolen from your future results. Like the opportunity cost of that is so high. And so if if that's something that you're struggling with is like the the weight of the overhead of the running of the business and you're not able to like do sp

Do the thing that you're here to do, the thing that only you can do. Like I definitely like people need to to reach out to you. So how can they connect with you, reach out to you, learn more about what you do so you can really help them build systems that work with them instead of trying to fit themselves into the box that everybody says that they should be in?

Diana |

The Finer Points (45:40.767)

Do thing that you're here to do, that only you can do. Like I definitely reach out to Thank you. how can they connect

Diana |

The Finer Points (45:57.647)

systems that work with them and so I'm trying to fit

Diana |

The Finer Points (46:04.375)

yeah. And honestly, like, and I won't name brands, but there was like I'll just tell a story before I do it. Brand A needed to raise their prices. So they announced a price range, which everyone is doing across the board. Everyone's raising prices. Brand A raises their price. Brand B, I know this for a fact, was on the heels. Same cat their compet direct competitor was on the heels of announcing it. But then it everybody rioted, bullied brand A.

To no end on social media. And it happened within hours. I mean, it was just so bad. And so then brand B flips it on them and says, We would never do that. And says, if you come over to us from brand A, we will migrate everything for you. It we will make it so easy for you. So all of these people jump ship and go to brand B within like

Hours. I mean, like it happened so fast. So all of these people give up on their businesses, all their systems, they have to manually migrate all the way over. And this brand B promises the world to them just to get their business. There is a six-month wait list for them to migrate you over, which means now you're paying for two pieces of software and

Shannon Mattern (47:23.551)

Mm.

Diana |

The Finer Points (47:29.655)

It's gonna take them six months to migrate you. Cause it that was a that was a first thought. I was like, how can you possibly deliver on this promise? You can't. Six months. You're putting your business on hold for six months to save what?

Shannon Mattern (47:35.583)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (47:42.848)

Right. At what cost? Yeah.

Diana |

The Finer Points (47:44.387)

Forty bucks, you're saving forty dollars. It's I just want people and business owners so badly to be grounded and rooted in their purpose so much that we're not carried away by the wind of trends and fads. And like s you can stand the test of time and

Shannon Mattern (48:07.604)

Yep.

Shannon Mattern (48:12.041)

Yeah.

Diana |

The Finer Points (48:12.895)

And there is a community here through Shannon, through me, there's so many others that you don't have to do this alone. And I I just I really, really, really hope that people hear that. you have to stand firm and and learn and adapt, sure, but to uproot your full system because someone one person told you so, the stranger on the internet that you have given all of your trust over to.

You know, and to be fair, you and I are strangers on the internet, right? Like so I I get it. I get it. I I I do, but there are nuances and I need you to trust yourself so badly. So if, anyways, if what I'm saying resonates with you in any way, shape, or form, you can find me at thefinerpoints.co. the finer points plural dot co and Instagram is the same. That's my

Shannon Mattern (48:42.398)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (48:46.143)

Correct, yes.

Shannon Mattern (48:52.852)

Yes.

Diana |

The Finer Points (49:10.625)

social of choice. Some of your people I know you're huge on LinkedIn. And so I will do my best to check LinkedIn. I did get over there. It's just a bit slower on the response time. So please be patient.

Shannon Mattern (49:26.069)

Well, thank you so much for being here. This has been such a good conversation and I can't thank you enough for everything that you shared with everybody. So I'll link up all of that in the show notes. So go check out thefinerpoints.co and Diana, thank you so much for being here.

Diana |

The Finer Points (49:44.963)

Thank you so much for letting me rant and to be with you. Always a joy.