#185 – How To Scale a Web Design Business with Sarah Noked of OBM School

Shannon Mattern (00:01.755)

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Profitable Web Designer podcast. And I am joined again today by my friend, Sarah Noqued, who is the founder of OBM School, where she trains service providers to become skilled online business managers and also leads an agency that helps entrepreneurs like you find the operational support you need to grow your businesses with confidence and clarity. So Sarah, welcome back to the show.

Sarah Noked OBM (00:29.774)

It is always so much fun to jam here with you and you did such a nice job introducing me. I appreciate that.

Shannon Mattern (00:36.241)

Thank you. Well, you know, I use the pre-written bio that your team submitted like a well-oiled machine over there at the OBM schools. So yeah, thank them for setting you up so beautifully. So you have been on the show before, but we've been friends for a long time. You were in episode 149.

Sarah Noked OBM (00:41.708)

I'm good.

Sarah Noked OBM (00:49.848)

Yes. I shall. I shall. Yes.

Shannon Mattern (01:04.613)

where we talked about what it could look like for a web designer to bring an OBM onto their business with a whole lot of other things. So we're definitely going to talk more about that today. for our listeners who are new to the show and maybe didn't hear that episode, can you tell them a little bit more about you and what you do?

Sarah Noked OBM (01:25.644)

Yeah, absolutely. So I am many, like probably like many of our listeners, I started off back in 2009. my God, a very, very long time, but I just wanted to work from home. I wanted to give my kids the stay at home mom feel. And I was like, I ain't gonna be able to do this in corporate. So much like many listeners here, I set off to take my transferable corporate skills into

Shannon Mattern (01:42.673)

Yeah.

Sarah Noked OBM (01:52.462)

being an online business manager and it just started off as like a means to an end and over time just scaled and scaled beautifully into the certification program into training online business managers and into Really scaling my agency to match accredited OBMs with their ideal clients which tend to be

web developers as well and other agencies, marketing agencies that are serving multiple clients. So that's been my experience in the online space and God, it feels like I just started doing this yesterday.

Shannon Mattern (02:31.985)

And we met, don't know how you, we met when I was still doing the free five day website challenge, when I was still teaching web designers, how to DIY their websites. And, so I don't even remember how we met some, one of us pitched the other one or something happens. And, we met.

Sarah Noked OBM (02:52.814)

We must have been introduced, we're for sure introduced by some lovely person that we have in contact because I am, you know, I'm a very behind the scenes, like pretty introverted person. I don't really socialize. So if it was an intro, had to be like a very like, you guys are gonna hit it off. And I know, like we've hit it off. We've been hitting it off for the last decade.

Shannon Mattern (02:59.076)

it

Shannon Mattern (03:15.691)

Yeah, I'm the same way. I am not a very extroverted social person. So 1,000%, someone was like, you two need to meet. And we have. We speak at least once a year. Sometimes we just catch up to catch up. Sometimes we do a podcast interview. You have really helped me this year in terms of shifting how I've been running my team and the different roles and like,

Sarah Noked OBM (03:24.673)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (03:44.975)

just helping me take things, like get my mind around even just what I could take off my plate and taking things off my plate and helping leverage Erica, our client success coordinator, who co-hosts some of these episodes with me in a different way. So yeah, for like those scrappy solopreneurs like me who are listening to this, who are like, it's all on me. know how I'm the one that knows, I built the systems.

Sarah Noked OBM (04:10.955)

You're not a scrappy solopreneur. That's where your problems start by calling yourself a scrappy solopreneur. You have had a team all the years I've known you and you have had different iterations of your team, which is so normal. And sometimes, like I love, this is my favorite expression to date. It's hard to see the label from inside.

Shannon Mattern (04:16.356)

You

I know.

Shannon Mattern (04:24.804)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (04:32.815)

Yes.

Sarah Noked OBM (04:32.909)

from inside the model. And I think that this is really true for very seasoned entrepreneurs who are used to doing things a certain way or type A control freaks like you and I who really like things to be done a certain way and kind of.

obsess over the tech and the automations and the use of AI and all of these things. So I think sometimes we like to make it more difficult than it is or for whatever reason we think that we are the... So one of the biggest problems that I find with people who want to hire an OBM is that they don't think that they can delegate.

Shannon Mattern (04:53.045)

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Noked OBM (05:12.199)

or they're not sure what to delegate, or they think that only they are the person in their business to do X, Y, and Z. So when you're scaling and when you're bringing on this kind of level of support, whether you are bringing on an OBM in your web design business to interface with your clients, manage projects, it's going to feel a little bit outside your comfort zone, but I think that's a good sign.

Shannon Mattern (05:34.511)

Yeah, it's like the discomfort of growth. And I think that that has been like my biggest challenge. how we do anything is how we do everything. It shows up here. It shows up in other places where I'm like hyper responsibility for like, this is my responsibility to do these things in the business. And it's my responsibility to take care of everybody else and make sure everybody else has exactly what they need to do their job.

Sarah Noked OBM (05:46.989)

That is so true.

Shannon Mattern (06:04.112)

And it's really something that I'm dismantling. It's like, what is my own and where am I disempowering other people when I'm taking on responsibility for things that are not mine?

Sarah Noked OBM (06:18.477)

Yeah, and that's why I really love jamming with you on business strategy, and that is why I think that your team is so lucky to be working with you, because you're great. You're great, and you constantly are pushing the envelope in your business.

You have to be bold and brave to be an entrepreneur. I don't care why you got started. We all have our different whys for getting started, but ultimately, what makes you successful is your grit and your ability to think outside the box and constantly.

Shannon Mattern (06:47.684)

Yeah.

Sarah Noked OBM (06:50.249)

push yourself outside of your comfort zone. So I think when I'm outside of my comfort zone or something feels icky, whether that be because I'm hiring someone new or integrating a new platform or whatever, I'm on to something. This is a good sign for me.

Shannon Mattern (07:06.116)

Yeah, for sure. I was thinking about you because I was on a coaching call with one of my private coaching clients and she was just like, I am so overwhelmed. She's like, I keep booking new clients. The problems of success, right? She's like, I keep getting people saying yes and wanting to pay me money.

Sarah Noked OBM (07:19.817)

These good problems to have.

Shannon Mattern (07:28.718)

And then she's like, but I am so overwhelmed right now because like, when is it all going to get done? And how am I going to have the capacity to do all of this? And that's a conversation that I'm having more and more with people where they're like, I just need systems and processes. I just need systems. Like it doesn't even occur to them that maybe they don't have to be the one to do all of the things. what would you, what advice would you give to her or what is your

Sarah Noked OBM (07:51.755)

Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (07:58.577)

thought about that situation.

Sarah Noked OBM (07:58.892)

Yeah. Well, I mean, that is like such a common situation that, you know, I'm familiar with. And unfortunately, when entrepreneurs get themselves into that situation, the result is never good, you know, either like something's got to give, you know, like just like how you were saying, how it shows up in all these different areas, like your health will sacrifice, your family will hate you, you know, there's all these things that result. So

Shannon Mattern (08:14.544)

Mm-mm.

Sarah Noked OBM (08:27.947)

You get to a point where you can take on more clients and take on more clients, but eventually something's got to give. So either your client experience will be sacrificed or your onboarding will be sacrificed or your ability to deliver things on time will be sacrificed and it will ultimately affect and impact your revenue, your profitability. So if you are scaling and you're in this position where you are

bringing on clients, it's a good problems to have. You're bringing on lots of clients. You have to take a step back, just take a step forward as an entrepreneur. And sometimes this is a really painful thing because you got to slow down to speed up. You have to slow down to think about,

I'm moving 100 miles an hour. What do I need? And that's why she's really lucky, because she has you as her coach. Because it's sometimes very hard when you're in that situation to see it for what it is and be like, oh, maybe if I hire an OBM or a project manager to ease my pain, can continue to take on clients. And maybe if I bring on an OBM to manage the client care and the deliverables and make sure my clients are happy, well, then I can actually just focus on doing what I

love, which is probably just, I don't know, what do web designers love?

Shannon Mattern (09:47.479)

They love talking to the client, coming up with the strategy, maybe some pointing and clicking and doing of the thing. But really, they love the ideation of the building of the thing. What I hear is they're like, I just want to come up with the ideas and be the creative director and the solution architect, but I don't want to build the thing. I don't want to like.

Sarah Noked OBM (09:56.075)

Yeah, that's the same thing.

Sarah Noked OBM (10:01.441)

And they're so creative also. I'm like the least creative person.

Sarah Noked OBM (10:16.397)

manage the other developers or other team members.

Shannon Mattern (10:16.88)

I want to talk to the client when it's time to talk to the client and then have someone else say, like build the thing, do the thing, you know, yeah.

Sarah Noked OBM (10:29.805)

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that that is something that, you know, it's really hard when you're in that position because, you know, you on one hand, you've grown to this level of success that you've always wanted for yourself. But then when you get there, you're like in this golden cage of like, great, I'm making money. I have clients, check, check, check, check, check,

Now my health is being sacrificed. I can't go to that yoga class that I love to do. I haven't been outside for days. And when was the last time I ate a home cooked meal? So you have to ask yourself the question, what is entrepreneurship? What does that mean to me? Does it mean being stretched thin? Or does it mean scaling? It's so ironic, because when I started my business,

I was that solopreneur life OBM. was like, don't need anybody. I can do all these things myself, blah, blah, blah. And after a couple years, I realized there are things that I don't like doing. There are things that I'm not good at. And as I'm working in all of these different businesses and seeing all of this range of VAs and types of different people you can hire onto teams, I was like, OK, there's room here for me to delegate. And I think that...

When I'm thinking about your particular web developers and web designers, some of the first things that can come off of your plate are the things that are already recurring in your business. So maybe it's how you report to your client, or maybe it's your onboarding process. These are things that are easily delegatable that can.

probably save you two or three hours in your week. So that begs the question, what's another 10 hours a month for you? Where can that get you? it another project? Is it landing another client? Is it having some free time for your family that you haven't had in a while? So you have to think about that opportunity cost, that investment. What is that going to look like for you? And what are some of the things you can start to get off of your plate that are recurring?

Shannon Mattern (12:27.863)

Yeah, I mean, as you're saying that the thing that I'm thinking is this catch 22 that I hear from the the women that I work with. And I've thought this way myself too, where it's just like, okay, but how am I going to make sure that I can pay for this person? And so they so it's this rock hard place, right? Where they're like, I'm at my max capacity.

I'm maybe not even paying myself what I should be paying myself right now. I'm going to take on a commitment to bring someone on and what if I am not able to like bring in more clients or revenue or all of that. And so they stay stuck and stay in this place where they just keep

burning out and spinning their wheels. And it's almost like the, they're used to it, feeling as bad as they're just like, well, I know this bad, like this bad, I'm used to this discomfort.

Sarah Noked OBM (13:37.229)

Well, as an entrepreneur, we know we like pain, right? That's why we decided to become entrepreneurs.

Shannon Mattern (13:44.653)

Yeah, so it's like the willingness to like take the risk of like, bringing that on feels more scary than the pain of like staying where you are in the mess. And so I'm just curious what your thoughts are about that, because you did say like, you know, you're gonna have to slow down to speed up but like,

Sarah Noked OBM (14:03.701)

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I think first off, it's this, it's, it's, it's bio, biology, right? So like our physiology wants us to stay in the same place because over there with the team is scary and outside of our comfort zone. So there's, there's this biological factor that wants to keep you in the same place. And then there's, you know, the resourceful you of like, okay, I want to bring on an OBM. I need to

plan for this. And the other thing, too, is that I'm sure that scaling as a web designer, it starts with having different contractors. So maybe you've gone and you've hired that other developer to support you, or you have a graphic design in your back pocket or a copywriter or whatever that looks like. So you're already working with contractors, likely, from the get-go.

you know, the OBM isn't the first person you hire. You hire the trades that are going to support you on getting the work done. And even with that, you have systems around that. So how does the graphic designer deliver the graphics to you? How do you share passwords? How do you deliver stuff to your clients? So there's a lot of systems that you build, hopefully,

around delegating those pieces. And then when it comes to, okay, now I want like a client concierge for my business, I want to hire an OBM that can really manage my clients and manage the reporting and manage the projects. And you look at it like an investment, you're like, okay, well, the typical investment to work with an OBM is three months. And most likely your OBM, especially if they've gone through my OBM school, or they are accredited, OBM or certified, they're likely going to charge around

$2,000 a month for about a 30-hour retainer, something like that. And that's what I recommend. So if you're working with an OBM, it's $2,000 a month for a minimum of three months. That's a $6,000 investment. I know how much your web developers charge for projects. So it's not even a whole project. So I think you have to look at it with a reasonable frame of mind of like, OK, I'm not taking the shirt off my back.

Shannon Mattern (16:08.24)

Yeah.

Right.

Sarah Noked OBM (16:19.085)

to bring on this manager. But if I bring on this manager and I don't take the shirt off my back, then that means I need to bring in another client or I need to sell X amount of whatever. a lot of the times, and this isn't just web developers, actually I think web developers are the last kinds of people that would do this. But when we work with coaches and maybe some different kinds of service professionals online, I find that...

Shannon Mattern (16:19.184)

All

Shannon Mattern (16:27.397)

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Noked OBM (16:43.135)

Sometimes with this newfound time freedom that we afford our clients as online business managers instead of going and using their time wisely or or really focusing on the things that only they could do in their business they just completely go MIA or they take some time off because they've probably been really burnt out and like I understand why they do that, but When you are scaling and you are investing, know, you're investing in an OBM

And then with that in mind, you need to now focus your efforts on getting more clients or increasing your pricing. So I think you have to also have a little bit of faith in the universe, that the universe has got your back because it's not, I mean, it is not easy to scale. It's not easy. And also too, like, so you bring on an OBM for three months and maybe they have, they put some systems in place. Maybe they automate some of the stuff you're doing. Maybe they help.

Shannon Mattern (17:22.115)

Yeah.

Sarah Noked OBM (17:37.165)

to further refine how your current team operates. It doesn't need to be often to the sunset for all eternity. Like OBMs come in on projects to set up and streamline different things. if so, if you're, like I don't know what tool your clients typically use for managing clients, but I imagine it's like Dubsado or Go High Level, something like that, right? OBMs, Moxie, yeah, mean, there's, I mean, even.

Shannon Mattern (17:57.838)

Dubsado, Moxie, go high level. Honey book.

Sarah Noked OBM (18:02.445)

Even as we're saying, like 800 other tools just went on the market. But there's plenty of different CRMs and project management tools. OBMs can help you with your tech stack. And there's no shame in having a hodgepodge tech stack as a web developer. Even some of the OBMs I train don't invest enough time in their own tech and systems.

Shannon Mattern (18:06.576)

Yes.

Shannon Mattern (18:26.916)

Yeah, wouldn't it be lovely for it to not be you? This is the thing that web designers do because we're so techie, because we can figure anything out. We're just like, it does not even occur to us that someone else could come in and build our tech stack.

Sarah Noked OBM (18:33.485)

So techy.

Sarah Noked OBM (18:42.429)

know, I love that you're bringing this up Shannon because it really is a mindset. It really is a mindset. I don't think, you know, and I don't want to say like women or men, but I think as women, you know, I know I'm like this, like I'm very like I was like solopreneur for life. I can do everything. I don't need anybody. But then I get a certain point. I'm like, wait, but you know, I really would like to go to that morning yoga class or maybe I should bring a mentor into my community to

Shannon Mattern (18:48.784)

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Noked OBM (19:11.093)

support me training my OBM. And also, when you have some time away from your business, you can think creatively about what you're doing. So it's this catch 22 slash mind F, whatever you want to fill the blanks in there, but scaling is not easy. And that's why you really do need a trusted partner who has scaled businesses before, like an OBM.

Shannon Mattern (19:36.908)

Mm hmm. Yeah. When you keep you say the word scale over and over. What does scale mean to you in terms of a service based business?

Sarah Noked OBM (19:48.589)

Hmm That's so good shit and no one's ever asked me that how do you say scale a lot to me? It's scaling yourself out of your business. That's how I look at that

Shannon Mattern (19:53.392)

you

Shannon Mattern (20:01.069)

That is like, I love that definition. Because when I think of scale, and this might just be my lens of like, I sell a online program one to many. And so when I'm thinking scale, I'm thinking like, maximizing the number of people coming through the door. And I think we're kind of talking about the same thing, but.

Sarah Noked OBM (20:04.918)

Yeah.

Sarah Noked OBM (20:23.22)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (20:27.407)

There's a nuance of what you're saying here is that it's not scaling the customers, it's scaling the operations. Tell me more about that.

Sarah Noked OBM (20:37.312)

Yes, yes, is absolutely. I love this. I've never really, I mean, I've never really. So when I do discovery calls with potential clients looking to hire OBMs, always ask myself the question in my mind when I'm talking to people, is she trying to scale herself into her business or out of her business? So most of the time, people are trying to scale themselves out of their business. So.

When I work with entrepreneurs, they're usually wearing 800 hats. I lovingly refer to our clients as successful despite themselves because they're often very visionary, they're unhinged, they're doing eight million, trillion things. And quite honestly, they're not good at all the things they do, but in order to sleep at night and wake up in the morning, they have to convince themselves that they are. So I think the first thing is like kind of getting clear on like,

Where are your shortcomings as an entrepreneur? Meaning, what do you like? It's not always what do you like doing in your business, because we don't always like all the things we have to do in our business. But what are the things that you have to do in your business? What are the things that you have to do in your business? So for example, a web developer, know.

It might be you having those onboarding calls where you are doing the ideation, vision type stuff with your clients. But you certainly don't have to actually do the implementation. You probably don't even need to do the sales calls, per se. So when you start to think about, well, what is going to free up my time, it's very unique to every client. So one of the first things that I teach my online business managers to do is to audit. So we do a time audit.

Shannon Mattern (21:58.768)

you

Sarah Noked OBM (22:20.116)

of all the team members, know, where's your time? And it really is mostly around the entrepreneur, kind of the CEO. Like, where's all your time going? you're...

spending time like so for me I use Entroport that is my CRM drug of choice and I when I'm feeling stressed out or out of control I will just play in automation land for like hours so you know we all have our procrastination of choice and so I think it's also about somebody from the outside kind of calling you out on okay you're spending way too much time you don't need to be the one setting up the other image of the automations you don't need to be the one managing clients

Shannon Mattern (22:36.111)

You

Sarah Noked OBM (23:00.11)

So yes, you could do all of these things, but we're trying to scale you out of the business because when the entrepreneur sits on top in their zone of genius, then they can focus on the things that only they can do in the business. And that is ultimately how an OBM impacts the bottom line because the transformation is time. When our clients get back more time,

When they use that time wisely, they can X their revenue or X their quality of life or whatever. And that to me is scaling out of the business, right? That the business isn't relying entirely on me, that it's relying more on the systems that we've put in place to keep it moving along nicely.

Shannon Mattern (23:46.064)

I think that's so beautiful and I've never really thought about scaling and like the way that you just said it and you know, it's empowering the business to not depend on you to operate, to be healthy, to on you the CEO to do its job. Its job is to

Sarah Noked OBM (24:06.548)

Yeah, I knew the CEO to operate. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (24:16.557)

like serve the clients and like, like its job is to deliver whatever you built it to deliver. And that's not your job as the CEO. Like, I'm just like, my job as the CEO is to give the business what the business needs to be healthy. And the business does not need me to have my hands in every single little thing to be healthy. In fact, that's the biggest risk.

Sarah Noked OBM (24:40.236)

In fact, it's putting it at different advantage. Yes.

Shannon Mattern (24:44.653)

The biggest risk to everybody is, yeah.

Sarah Noked OBM (24:46.924)

That's right. So it's so funny because I love, this is why I love talking to you because it makes me remember a lot of these core principles and I'm like, yes, damn straight. And so much so that when we do that time audit, so I always ask my clients, I'm like, just, you because people don't know what they do day to day. There's like, I do 800 things. So keep a little note next to you and start writing down what it is that you're doing daily. And then at the end of two weeks or at the end of the week,

Look at that list and circle the things that need to be only done by you. And that is a real exercise in scalability and scaling yourself up because you will quickly realize that, oh, all this stuff on my plate is fine and dandy, but I don't need to be doing half of it. And also, this half of it takes me 20 hours a month.

with those 20 hours, I could go to conferences. Like, you know, when we go to a conference, it's the same for OBMs. You land like 100 clients. So why are you sitting at home actually pitz-putzing over client care emails or whatever the hell you're procrastinating on when you could be going and getting your butt to that networking event or that digital marketing conference?

Shannon Mattern (25:57.997)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (26:01.655)

my goodness, yes. That is, that's the thing, right? Because it's like, if you really mean it, if you really want to scale, if you really want to take yourself out of these things to go do the things that are going to bring you more clients, are you just staying in procrastination land because that feels good and safe and that's what you're used to?

Sarah Noked OBM (26:27.4)

That's so good. I've read it. It's good. It's safe.

Shannon Mattern (26:30.575)

because it's uncomfortable to go meet 50 new people at a networking event, which is just going to instantly, as we all know, it just turns into clients when you put yourself out there like that.

Sarah Noked OBM (26:42.572)

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. That is so, so, so true, Shannon. So it's like you can pits-puts with all these little things that you want to get done in your business, but you know really where the hard work pays off. And that's why when I'm talking to a potential OBM client,

My green flag for them is if they know the value of their time. If I say to them, hey, if you had another five hours in your week, what would be the thing that you would do that would get you, garnish you more revenue, get you whatever that is? And if they can't answer me or they like doing, sometimes they like doing the admin, but it's not a good use of your time. When I had a landscaping company back before I was in OBM land back in 2006, I used to do my bookkeeping.

What the F? I was doing my bookkeeping because I really enjoyed the, you know, I don't want to say mind numbing. I hope there are no bookkeepers that I'm offending here, but I liked that like cathartic mind numbing, like turn my brain off and just implement things. And yeah, but it's not, yeah.

Shannon Mattern (27:48.906)

That's what web design is like. When you, it's like playing a video game sometimes where you're just like, you know, if I ever back in the day when we had like Nintendo, that's how old I am. I was like the first Nintendo, but it like, it is like, yeah, exactly. It's just like, you don't need to think if it's a skill that you like, if you're experienced, you're just like in the zone and you can just like zone out and do nothing. Yeah.

Sarah Noked OBM (27:59.861)

Yeah.

Sarah Noked OBM (28:12.734)

Yeah, zone out, yes. But I knew that that was not a good use of my time. So in my OBM business, obviously, I didn't make that same mistake. I have a nice accountant and a nice bookkeeper, definitely. But I think a lot of us really like to be in the details because it makes us feel productive. It makes us feel like we're

Shannon Mattern (28:20.248)

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Noked OBM (28:38.116)

almost saving money, but like you're saving money in your business at what expense. Yeah, at what expense. So I think that when you are scaling your business, you need to take a good hard look at

Shannon Mattern (28:39.855)

At what cost? Yeah.

Sarah Noked OBM (28:51.102)

What's the best use of your time? If you were to focus on what you were good at, what would those things be? And it's not always things that you like. Like I don't like doing the sales calls and doing the hustle and the networking, but you can't hire people. And sales and marketing are always the last things to come off of people's plates for the very reason that they're usually the things that the solopreneur or the growing entrepreneur need to be responsible for.

Shannon Mattern (29:20.461)

love to talk about slowing down to speed up. How does someone asking for a friend is a type eight control freak? How does that person? I think like the challenge I continue to run into is that I'm always out ahead, always out in front of everybody else. And also,

Sarah Noked OBM (29:24.481)

Hmm

Sarah Noked OBM (29:28.32)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (29:48.656)

I noticed myself being unwilling to pause anything that we're doing. It's always like, train's on the tracks, full of steam ahead. So there's no slowing down to speed up. And then I never really let anybody else get ahead of me. And so then it feels a little frustrating to delegate because it's like,

Sarah Noked OBM (30:05.301)

Yeah.

Sarah Noked OBM (30:09.078)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (30:17.237)

I can't let someone get ahead for me to be able to equip them to do the job. And then the timelines get too tight. And then I'm just like, why am I not giving myself the space to make this change as if this change could happen on a dime with nothing else changing.

Sarah Noked OBM (30:26.7)

Hmm.

Sarah Noked OBM (30:34.206)

Exactly. Yeah. So, I mean, I think that this is like a very, obviously a very typical predicament. And I think that this is a result of. Delicacy, you know, what you just explained to me was a scenario where I'm delegating to various contractors, different things, right. And I'm the one who's in the OBM role in my business. And that is that totally and good at it. You are very good at it, Shannon. But the thing that started

Shannon Mattern (30:55.919)

Yes, I'm not good at it. I don't think I am.

Sarah Noked OBM (31:04.086)

You're so funny. You are. You really are. But what starts to happen is you're managing people. You're managing people. Managing the bits and people doing the things is like a, it's a job. It's a job. So the first thing, so when I say slow down to speed up, the first thing is like capturing what is recurring in the business. So obviously being a web designer is a very creative jam.

Shannon Mattern (31:24.012)

Yeah.

Sarah Noked OBM (31:29.814)

How do you capture what I do as a web developer? It's more of the logistics around delivering things. So how do we like our websites delivered? In what format? And what format are our graphics? How do we onboard and off-board clients? So when you slow down, you're first looking. And an OBM can help you do this. But if you don't want to do that, you look at your own stuff. And you be your own best OBM. And you're like,

What are the things that recur? That goes back to your time audit. What's recurring in my business? And what can be fully handed off to somebody else on my team? So if it's like onboarding and offboarding new clients or reporting, these are things that happen.

in a very standardized way. It's not like what you were just mentioning, which is like, have all of these great strategies and tactics that I want to like roll out in my business. Like when you automate and delegate the recurring stuff, you have more time to play in the zone of like, and I would never take that away from an entrepreneur. think that.

you have to know that that is your sweet spot. And a lot of these qualities that you think, I'm always ahead of my team, or I'm always driving the force.

You know, it's those qualities that when you really think about it are your best qualities. That is what makes you successful. So it's just about recognizing the double-edged sword and kind of being able to keep yourself in the middle. And so what does it mean to keep yourself in the middle of the double-edged sword and not sort of veer to like the extremes of your qualities is by hiring somebody that can wrangle you. So.

Sarah Noked OBM (33:10.506)

And OBM can help you systematize and get those SOPs in place to deal with the recurring audit. But then you have this other elephant in the room that you're talking about, and that's like, what about all my internal projects? Am I strategies? Am I fun that I want to have with this? So a good OBM that's been trained in OBM school will take out their whip.

and they will crack it. And from the get-go, they will say to you, Shannon, I'm going to take you on this journey where I'm going to create a three-month, 90-day plan for these big goals that you want to roll out. And I find with visionary entrepreneurs, and I do sometimes find myself floating into this category of all very rarely, I find that sometimes I want to do all of these things, and I want all these things to roll out in my life. And what I find is that,

Shannon Mattern (33:32.44)

Hmm.

Sarah Noked OBM (34:00.594)

OBM will say, okay Shannon, these are the top goals for 2026. Now let's put them into a 90 day plan so that we can actually make it happen. And what happens is that when you start to veer off into lalaland or suddenly you're like, Sally's using this new AI tool and it's gonna make videos so much easier for your clients, a good OBM will be like, I hear you Shannon, I'm putting that on our list of bucket items but.

I'm gonna refocus your attention on the three goals that we set forth this month so that shit actually gets done, you know? So it's not so much about you not being creative and visionary, it's just about somebody being a mirror and reflecting back, okay, that's great, Shannon, you wanna move that up to next month, that's fine, so we'll push this project out. And so the OBM is getting one step ahead of you. So you mentioned, like I always feel like I'm 10 steps ahead because...

Shannon Mattern (34:36.471)

Yeah.

Sarah Noked OBM (34:57.854)

When you don't have systems in place and when you don't have a dedicated role to somebody who's like manning the fort

things get very chaotic and you end up being in a very reactionary mode. And it's okay because many businesses thrive and survive and live in that kind of climate. But it's so much better when you have somebody that's like wrangling all the projects and sort of then keeping you accountable to what you said you wanted to do so that you can be 10 steps ahead. But the whole team is on that same 10 steps ahead project.

Shannon Mattern (35:32.685)

Yeah, that's such a beautiful personality trait of an OBM that they can come in and crack the whip and be loyal to the project plan and the business and maintain that while still allowing the visionary to be the visionary.

Sarah Noked OBM (35:41.828)

Tell you what needs to happen.

Sarah Noked OBM (36:00.747)

Yeah. I always tell my OBMs that like the client is not your client. The business is your client. So what are we doing that's in the best interest of the business? Because a lot of the times like, look, we're humans. We like to self-sabotage. We like to like, you know, have bright, shiny object syndrome. When you don't have someone on your team that is, you know, thinking about the vision and the goals and the big picture.

Shannon Mattern (36:08.332)

That's so beautiful.

Sarah Noked OBM (36:25.226)

Yeah, I mean, you're like, suddenly you get the team to shift from X to Y. suddenly they're all scrambling to set up this new AI tool that has no bearings on anything in your business. And you've just wasted a whole slew of time getting your team to do X, Y, and Z that really wasn't necessary. And that's where it can be very harmful. I mean, it depends on your.

know, different strokes for different folks, like people are very different and you might be honest with yourself or not honest with yourself, but there will come a time in every growing business where you have to hire someone to manage things. It's natural. And also, you know, you can decide in your business that, I mean, the other thing that I have to say here is like, I have no problem with clients being the OBM in their business.

Shannon Mattern (37:00.29)

Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Noked OBM (37:14.7)

I think the problem starts to be when they're not a good OBM and they're not practicing good project management hygiene or they're not actually following up and finishing their overdue tasks because they're not even using a project management tool. My visionary clients, they don't even want to be in the project management tool and it's a problem.

Shannon Mattern (37:36.815)

Yeah. Yeah. And I think also, even if you are a quote unquote good OBM in your business, there comes a point, like you've said, that that role is costing you. Staying in that role is costing you way more than it would cost you to hire an OBM. Yeah.

Sarah Noked OBM (37:38.516)

It's a big problem.

Sarah Noked OBM (37:51.678)

Yes, it's costing you. It's always to hire somebody to support you and have that standing board. And I think that is like, it's sort of like the misconception of like, when you work your nine to five, having that comfort of the salary of that paycheck every month. It's a similar feeling. It's just a comfort zone thing. And you're like,

Part of you knows that you can leave that corporate job behind and make more money. Just like part of you knows that you'll make more money if you hire somebody to manage the things in your business that you suck at. And you'll be happier, they'll be happy, you're happy, the team. So that's the other thing, I always tell my OVNs, I don't tell the clients this, but I was like, you're like a buffer, you're a buffer between.

this crazy visionary entrepreneur and the rest of the team that are like shaking in their boots. They're shaking in their boots because everyone's in reactionary mode because there's no system set up. The OBM comes in and they're like, here's your role, here's your role. All the tasks are in the project management tool. Great, the business can run on systems and if so and so is sick or Sally needs to go, we can bring in somebody else to do that because we know where all the tasks are going and who they're attributed to.

You know that makes for such a more solid and stable kind of business and it's just feels I don't know why it feels so counterintuitive just like it does when it when you're leaving your corporate job like I Think back to when I was in corporate like like investing in the OBM certification back in I don't even know 2011 or whatever like Thinking to myself like is this gonna work and like in retrospect. I was like, what was I like?

What was I on? What was I processing in my brain that was so counterintuitive and contrary to what was actually happening? It's bananas to me. it's, again, we like to be in this comfort zone. And also I think I know myself, unless I'm sweating adrenaline and chalked up on coffee and going a million miles an hour, sometimes I don't feel like I'm working hard enough and I don't deserve what I'm earning. It's such a cuckoo way.

Sarah Noked OBM (40:06.187)

It's such a strange mindset that I grew up in. Work, work, work. With hard work comes reward. It's like, no. I I do my hard work, yes, but I can delegate the things that aren't falling into my spectrum. So I think it really helps to have a coach or a mastermind or people that can kind of point you out on your BS, which is hard because a lot of us solopreneurs are very isolated. So isolated.

Shannon Mattern (40:10.328)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (40:31.372)

Yeah. You said that raise to just work really hard to earn what you have and all of that. I was talking to another one of my coaching clients, and she was like, I just feel like I'm cheating if it's easy. And that's a horrible feeling. So why would you want to feel like you're cheating all the time, like you're getting away with something?

Sarah Noked OBM (41:00.095)

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I don't even know what to say to that. But it's, yes, we are raised to believe that that is the case.

But then, you know, when I think about the entrepreneurs focusing on the hard things, know, you can always push it more. Like for me, I know it's outside my comfort zone. Like I have to force myself to go to networking events and I do. You know, that is hard work for me. That is not, you know, sitting back. So there's always things that I can do or maybe it would be like, you know, one of my goals eventually is to do, you know, more speaking gigs, like totally outside of my comfort zone. But, you know, and just kind of

Shannon Mattern (41:23.63)

Yeah.

Sarah Noked OBM (41:39.282)

working towards these things. And then again, you know, just, yes, there are good days and bad days. There are days where I'm like, yeah, I'm like making money and I'm like, you know, can take over the world. And there are days where I feel like a bag of S and I'm like, what am I doing here? Like I should, why did I even bother getting out of bed today?

I think if you called her today, I wonder what she's thinking now. Is she still in that frame of mind? I don't know, because it's like a roller coaster. But it also is helpful when you have, you brought it up also, an OBM is a sounding board. An OBM is somebody that cracks the whip.

Shannon Mattern (42:04.814)

Yeah

Sarah Noked OBM (42:14.783)

I hear this all the time from my clients. I want somebody who can come in and just kind of tell, not like tell me what to do, but own it, own the role. And that is what I transfer onto my OBM students. But also, I think for anyone listening here that's like, what is this gonna look like for me? When you work with the right person, it's gonna look like you're being taken on a journey and not the other way around.

Right? the right OBM and the right personality match. when I do my, so I do a lot of matchmaking inside of OBM school. And when I match OBMs with their clients, I am really thinking about personality, personality big time.

Shannon Mattern (42:54.626)

Yeah, I think that I just received feedback recently from a woman that I'm in a mastermind. We're in a mastermind together. And she was like, you don't allow people to be proactive for you. And I was like, thank you for that, because I think

Sarah Noked OBM (43:17.471)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (43:24.238)

I think for whatever reason, it's a blind spot for me or like a self protective thing or whatever it is where I'm like, no, like it's my job to make sure everybody else has what they need to help me.

Sarah Noked OBM (43:40.971)

Yeah, because you're like that savior complex. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (43:43.103)

Yeah. And so to allow someone to just come in and take me by the hand and lead me is like, what is this sorcery? Like this is uncomfortable. This is not like, you know, so it's just interesting to think of like, to think that like my mind says,

bringing on an OBM would be more work. That my mind says, bringing on an OBM would be one more person to be responsible for it. That's wrong.

Sarah Noked OBM (44:11.881)

My mindset, my mindset is yes, because it is more work. It is more work. Yes, it is. It is. And it is. And I can understand that because I always, this is the other thing I tell my OBM, the clients that want to work with OBMs is that it's going to be hard before it gets easier because, you know,

Shannon Mattern (44:33.622)

Yeah.

Sarah Noked OBM (44:35.379)

You're in reactionary mode for a reason. When the OBMs come in, they're systematizing, they're working with your team. It's like they're slowly streamlining things and they're getting ahead of the project.

Shannon Mattern (44:37.058)

Yep.

Sarah Noked OBM (44:48.075)

One of the really big things that I always, so if I have an OBM that I'm coaching or working with and they're like, yeah, I have a 30 hour retainer. I just don't get to the end of the 30 hours every month. I'm like, how is that possible? Like there are 8 million things to do in a business. It's likely because you're not clear on the client's goals and their vision. So when you can find an OBM or, know, Integrate or DOO, whatever synonym you want to use, when you find that person, you have to,

open up your heart around your vision, around your goals. And it requires you to do some planning, to do some annual planning. I know you are so big on annual planning, but you share your annual plans, you share your quarterly goals. And then you have someone on your team who can get proactive because they're in the know. So I would imagine that a lot of the people on your team and on anyone's team are just, they're just doers. They're like implementers. They, they don't need to know what the big picture of vision is. They don't know what the goals are per se. So

Shannon Mattern (45:34.348)

Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Noked OBM (45:46.58)

You're the only one who's holding that card. And that is when it starts to be also a liability because can you go on vacation like that? Probably not. Can you afford to like leave for a couple of weeks? Probably not. And that also has a price. know, like if I want to, you know, we take off, you know, for pretty much all of August. Like if I don't have OBMs on my team, who's manning the fort? You know, so it's like,

It's part of a rite of passage to, again, scaling yourself out of your business because you're not the only one who is in the know of all the ideas. And it's not like, you know, I mean, yes, there are a lot of ideas and I can imagine what it looks like in your business because I've known you for long enough to know that you are very creative and very insightful and very in the know on tech and things that are changing in the industry. Yeah, it can make you crazy. But if you have the right OBM, it's like, wait a second, Shannon, like,

Shannon Mattern (46:34.476)

you

Sarah Noked OBM (46:45.353)

you want to do this, doesn't meet the criteria for Q1 goals. This doesn't fall into these three goals and three strategies and a number of tactics that we've already laid out. that's what I mean when it's cracking the whip. It's an OBM that can speak up and raise a hand and say, just putting this back in your face that you said X, Y, and Z. And then you're like, I did say that. I literally plumb forgot. I think because we're a visionary, sometimes we're like,

We're operating on our own cylinders that are just disconnected sometimes.

Shannon Mattern (47:18.476)

Yeah. my gosh. This has been so, so good. What are some other things that you're like, you tell your OBMs about how to interact with their clients?

Sarah Noked OBM (47:27.709)

Yeah.

Sarah Noked OBM (47:31.487)

Yeah, think it's a lot of it is, you know, I think also the whole, I find that my OBMs are very, they have a very high level of emotional intelligence and empathy. So I really try to be very, very, you know, blunt and I'm like, your clients that you will work with are very visionary and, you know, and have just like,

all entrepreneurs, have our moments where we're not shining stars. Like that's the other thing, know, being empathetic to the things like, you know, entrepreneurship is a personal growth journey for all of us. So, and they know that too. So I think just like, know that if you do want to hire an OBM that they will be very much aware of the fact that you're working your ass off to make your business work. They're very like compassionate and considerate about those things. But

Shannon Mattern (48:11.5)

Yes.

Sarah Noked OBM (48:28.117)

Just with regards to what I tell my OBMs, I'm thinking of our manifesto, leave the business better off, leave with systems. Delegation is a muscle that you're constantly flexing. So you as a business owner need to flex that delegation muscle, but that's a big thing that OBMs are flexing all the time. We have X amount of resources. What's the best way to utilize these resources? So that's a big one that we talk about.

your own systems in place, any kind of business. And I think with, which brings me, which reminds me that I wanted to share with your community our SOP kit. So if you guys wanna go over to obmschool.com forward slash Shannon, we have an SOP kit. So this is actually the template that I give my OBMs to create systems in other people's businesses and in their businesses. But I find that, you know, if you are,

wanting to scale team, you can do this time audit. You can sit down for the next couple of weeks with a piece of paper next to you and just write down what you're working on. And then at the end of that time period, circle the things that only you can do in your business. And then everything else, if it's recurring, is fair game for delegation. And that is a muscle that you start flexing by creating a screencast where you document how you're doing those things. And then you can like,

know, delegate a standardized way of doing something in your business and slowly but surely those things will start to come off and you will feel a breath of fresh air because your business isn't reliant on the people per se, the contractors or anybody or you included, but it's hinging on these systems that you're putting in place that can be scaled as well and streamlined and further automated.

So I think that setting up, starting with systems and creating a vault in Google Drive where you can have your team log in and understand what it is that they need to do is real and having a, for the love of all things, I mean, your people have project management tools. I mean, I can't imagine how a web designer functions without a project management tool.

Shannon Mattern (50:44.59)

I think the moral of the story here for our listeners and especially for the women inside of the Web Designer Academy already or next level mastermind and for those of you listening who aren't inside yet, let people help you. Just let people help you. You do not have to do it all on your own. It's not all on you. There are people out there who would love to help you.

Sarah Noked OBM (51:01.258)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (51:13.326)

And you have a whole directory of them. And just like you create revenue generating assets for your clients when you build them a website, an OBM coming into your business will empower you to create more. So look at it as an addition instead of a subtraction and give yourself the support. So where can everybody go to?

Sarah Noked OBM (51:14.729)

a whole directory of them.

Shannon Mattern (51:43.606)

look at the directory, get a matchmaker session set up and all of the things.

Sarah Noked OBM (51:50.963)

Yeah, so first off, head on over to obmschool.com forward slash Shannon to get that beautiful SOP kit that we've created for you guys. And if you are interested in matchmaking, it's actually my saranoked.com website. So you can go to saranoked.com forward slash services. You can see our directory there. Or you can even go to obmschool.com forward slash directory. We have a number of different ways to get to all of our.

beautiful students that have gone through the certification program that are accredited. So these are individuals where I have literally walked them through a series of projects that I have evaluated. They have simulated what it's like to be a high functioning OBM on various types of projects. So these are experienced, really heart centered.

service-based online business managers who are really chomping at the bit to work with really good clients like agencies and designers and just the people in your space.

Shannon Mattern (52:53.076)

Awesome. I'll link all of that up in the show notes. So Sarah, thank you so much for coming back on the show. It's always so fun. Our hour together goes by so fast. Yeah.

Sarah Noked OBM (52:58.603)

I'm just having these minutes.

I know, it's always like that. And I just, really cherish our friendship and you know, I just think you are solid and do such good things for your community. And I would be honored, you know, if anyone wants to just reach out to me or, cause I know sometimes you're like, am I a good fit? Am I not a good fit? Like I'm really, I do all the discovery calls when I match my clients with other clients, my OBMs with clients. So.

Shannon Mattern (53:22.893)

Yeah.

Sarah Noked OBM (53:26.5)

Don't be shy, hit me up. I'm happy to share my experience with you guys, especially your community.

Shannon Mattern (53:33.41)

Well, thank you so much. really appreciate you being here and we'll see everyone back here next week. Bye everyone.