#190 – What Every Web Designer Needs to Know About Taxes with Hannah Cole

Have you ever caught yourself avoiding opening your bookkeeping software? Waiting until the last possible second to deal with taxes because the whole thing just feels… overwhelming and a little shameful? Like, somewhere along the way, you internalized this story that you're just not good with money, and that's just how it is?

Here's what I need you to hear: you're not broken. And there is so much financial magic available to you as a self-employed web designer that most people in your world have never even been told about.

That's exactly what came up in my conversation with Hannah Cole, artist-turned-tax expert, founder of Sunlight Tax, and author of Taxes for Humans, in this episode of the Profitable Web Designer podcast.

Hannah specializes in educating creative entrepreneurs about taxes and financial empowerment, and the way she talks about money will genuinely change how you see your business finances.

This isn't a dry tax episode. It's about worthiness, rebellion, and what it really means to take up financial space as a woman running a business.

Hannah's origin story is one a lot of us will recognize, even if the details look different.

When she got out of art school, she was doing well. She had a grant, residencies, a gallery interested in her work. She sat down with her dad's accountant, excited to start her professional life, and the first thing out of his mouth was: “When are you going to get a real job?”

That experience compounded over time. More accountants. More subtle (and not-so-subtle) messaging that creative work wasn't legitimate, wasn't a “real business,” didn't warrant real financial guidance.

And then she lost a job at a New York City branding agency she loved because her boss, despite running a big, successful creative firm, was allergic to his own numbers. He didn't know if he was profitable. He managed his anxiety about money by going out to get more contracts, but a lot of that money would just walk back out the door again. When he finally got bookkeeping set up, he realized he was hemorrhaging money and had to let everyone go.

Hannah saw, in a very earth-shaking way, how much power you can lose overnight when you don't have a handle on your numbers.

So she went back to school for accounting, specifically to bring accessible, empathetic financial education to creative people. People like you.

The Story You've Been Told About Money

Here's the thing that we talk about a lot inside the Web Designer Academy, and Hannah names it so perfectly in this episode: so many of the women in our world have internalized this belief that their businesses are not legitimate. That's because they're freelancers, or sole proprietors, or running a small creative business, they're not “real” businesses. And that belief holds them back from charging profitably, from stepping into leadership in their own businesses, from looking at their numbers without shame.

Hannah takes it even deeper. There's research showing that we talk to girls and boys differently about money from the time they're small. We tell boys to take risks and grow their wealth. We tell girls to save, be careful, and stay safe. Those messages seep in over decades, and by the time you're sitting down to figure out your business finances, you're carrying a ton of cultural weight that has nothing to do with your actual capabilities.

And on top of that? Nobody teaches us this stuff. There's no tax education in our schools. Nobody knows the tax code. You are not behind everyone else. You are not broken. The information just hasn't been made accessible to you in a way that felt safe.

If you've ever avoided looking at your numbers because you were afraid of what you'd find (or afraid of being judged for what you didn't know), Hannah's free visual guide to designer's tax deductions is a fantastic place to start. It translates creative-speak into tax language, so you can finally see exactly where all your business expenses fit on your tax return.

What You're Actually Missing When You Only Hire for Tax Prep

Hannah makes a distinction that completely reframes how most web designers think about accounting, and it's one of the most valuable things in this episode.

When you hire an accountant just to do your taxes once a year, you're getting a cattle-call service. Tax prep firms say yes to everyone, put them on extension, and ram them through as quickly as possible. To run a profitable tax prep business, you basically cannot answer questions. You have to go fast. So you're not being educated. You're just getting a form filed.

The real value of accounting happens outside of tax season. Tax planning. Investment strategy. Bookkeeping systems that actually work. Quarterly tax guidance. That's where the growth protection is.

And for a lot of web designers, especially those in early stages of business, the only touch point with an accountant is that one tax return moment a year. No wonder it feels like taxes are just this scary thing that happens to you once a year, rather than a system you can actually work with and benefit from.

The Tax Magic That Most Creative Entrepreneurs Never Hear About

What Business Expenses Can I Deduct As A Freelance Web Designer?

When you're self-employed, you have to do your own bookkeeping. A lot of people experience this as a punishment. Hannah flips that completely.

You have to track your income and expenses because you get to deduct them. Every dollar you reinvest in your business, software, programs, coaching, community memberships, comes off your taxable income. So if you brought in $100,000 and spent $70,000 on legitimate business expenses, you're only paying taxes on $30,000.

And here's the why behind it: the US government's primary goal is to grow the economy. Businesses are what grow the economy. So the tax code is literally designed to encourage you to invest back into your business, because when your business grows, the whole system benefits.

Your business expenses are tax-subsidized on purpose. That design coaching program, that community you're part of, the tools that help you serve your clients better… these are there to be deducted. The system is rooting for you to reinvest and grow.

Inside the Web Designer Academy, we talk constantly about the value of investing in your business rather than trying to do everything yourself. And it turns out there's even a tax incentive baked into that approach.

How Do I Pay Taxes As a Freelance Web Designer?

This one trips up so many self-employed web designers, and Hannah is clear that it's not your fault.

The US runs a pay-as-you-go tax system. Employees have taxes withheld automatically from every paycheck. But when you're self-employed, there's no mechanism to do that for you, so you're required to estimate and pay your taxes every quarter.

Most people don't find this out until a year too late, when they get an enormous tax bill plus penalties because they were supposed to be paying quarterly and didn't know. Hannah's Money Bootcamp program includes quarterly accountability Q&A sessions timed right before each quarterly deadline, so you can calculate your payments in real time, without having to pay monthly accounting fees for that kind of support. It's priced at roughly one month of full-service accounting, but with lifetime access and a built-in Google Calendar that pops up the right guidance at the right time of year, every year.

What’s The Real Cost of DIY-ing Everything?

Creative people are resourceful. That's a real superpower. But trying to DIY everything, including your taxes and finances, can cost you more than the thing you're trying to avoid paying for.

Yes, you're capable. You could probably figure it out. But do you want to spend two years learning the tax code, or would it be worth investing in someone who's already done that work so you can skip ahead?

Hannah calls it Shoots and Ladders. There are some places worth jumping ahead.

How To Feel Worthy of Charging More as a Web Designer

Here’s something I constantly see with so many women web designers: they have this core, underlying belief that receiving money for their work is somehow harming their clients. That if I make more, you have less. That taking up financial space is taking something away from someone else.

And Hannah names the antidote so clearly: you are worthy of growing your business. Your business serves people. The more financially strong and stable you are, the better you can serve those people. Charging profitably so you can be rested, resourced, and fully present for your clients is not greedy. It's actually what allows you to deliver the level of service your clients deserve.

She also talks about the clients she's served who, when they paid a number that felt almost embarrassingly high to them, showed up so well, so prepared, so invested in their own results. When you're undercharging, you're not just doing yourself a disservice. You're potentially limiting the quality of the experience for the people you're working with.

And the worthiness piece isn't just emotional. It also shows up in practical ways. A lot of web designers subconsciously prevent themselves from making more money because they're afraid of the tax and financial responsibility that comes with it. They stay small so they don't have to deal with systems they don't understand. Hannah's whole mission is to remove that barrier.

When you understand how the financial ecosystem actually works, and that it's designed to support people like you, the fear starts to loosen. And that's when you can actually grow.

The messages we've all received, save your money, be careful, don't take up too much space, let other people manage the money stuff, those messages are not neutral.

They're part of a larger system that benefits from keeping creative women small and financially dependent.

Understanding your taxes, setting up your financial systems, paying yourself well, and investing strategically back into your business?

That's the quiet rebellion.

Meet Hannah Cole

Hannah Cole is an artist, tax expert, and the founder of Sunlight Tax, where she specializes in educating creative entrepreneurs about taxes and financial empowerment. She's the author of Taxes for Humans, a tax guide that approaches the subject with empathy, humor, and a deep belief that creative people belong in financial conversations. She offers a free visual guide to designer's tax deductions and her signature Money Bootcamp program, which gives creative business owners lifetime access to the tax systems, quarterly accountability, and investing education they need to build financial security.

Resources From This Episode

Related Podcast Episodes:

Do web designers really need to pay quarterly taxes?

Yes, if you're self-employed and expect to owe more than $1,000 in taxes for the year, the IRS requires you to pay estimated taxes quarterly. The deadlines are typically in April, June, September, and January. Paying quarterly helps you avoid a large tax bill at filing time and potential underpayment penalties.

What business expenses can web designers deduct?

Web designers can deduct a wide range of business expenses, including software subscriptions, website hosting, design tools, coaching programs, educational courses, community memberships, home office space (if used regularly and exclusively for business), business mileage, and more. Working with a tax professional who specializes in creative businesses, like Hannah at Sunlight Tax, can help you make sure you're capturing all your legitimate deductions.

How is self-employed tax different from employee tax for web designers?

As a self-employed web designer, you're responsible for paying both the employee and employer portions of Social Security and Medicare taxes (called self-employment tax), in addition to income tax. You don't have an employer withholding from your paycheck, so you need to set aside money throughout the year and pay quarterly estimated taxes. The upside is that you can deduct business expenses from your taxable income, which employees generally cannot do.

Should I hire an accountant for my web design business?

It depends on where you are in your business journey. For many web designers, especially those just getting started, a program like Hannah's Money Bootcamp can give you the education and quarterly accountability you need at a much more accessible price point than full-service monthly accounting. As your revenue grows and your finances become more complex, working with a full-service accountant who specializes in creative businesses can be a worthwhile investment.

How do I stop feeling "bad with money" as a web designer?

First, recognize that nobody taught you this stuff. There's no tax education in schools, and many of us have received cultural messaging that discourages financial confidence, especially women. Start by getting clear on what you actually don't know (vs. what you assume you're doing wrong), finding a financial educator who gets the creative world, and building simple systems that make the information accessible. Hannah Cole's resources at Sunlight Tax are a great place to start.

About Shannon Mattern

Shannon Mattern is a Pricing Strategist and the founder of the Web Designer Academy where she helps experienced women web designers book higher-paying web design projects, charge more with confidence, run projects without overworking and burnout and break through to their next level of income and freedom.

Connect with Shannon:

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Hi, I’m Shannon Mattern, and I’m a Pricing Coach for women web designers who are ready to stop undercharging, stop overdelivering, and finally build a simpler, more profitable business that actually supports the life they want.

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TRANSCRIPT

Shannon Mattern (00:01.249)

Hello everyone and welcome back to the profitable web designer. And today I am joined by Hannah Cole. Hannah is an artist, a tax expert and author of Taxes for Humans and founder of Sunlight Tax. And she specializes in educating entrepreneurs and creative professionals in taxes and financial empowerment. So Hannah, welcome to the profitable web designer.

Hannah Cole (00:25.528)

Thank you so much, Shannon. I'm so happy to be here.

Shannon Mattern (00:29.377)

So I just did the standard bio intro, but I would love for you to tell our listeners a little bit more about your background. like artist to tax professional or both and isn't a combination that we often see. So tell me about your background and your origin story and how you got here.

Hannah Cole (00:52.014)

Sure, yeah. Yeah, I'm kind of a weirdo, but I basically, just had, when I got out of art school, I was feeling really good about myself. I'd gotten a big grant, I had residencies, I had a gallery courting me and, you know, it was feeling good. And I remember like feeling like I'm starting my life as a professional. And I went and sat down with my dad's accountant and the first words out of his mouth were, when are you gonna get a real job? And I just,

Shannon Mattern (01:19.735)

you

Hannah Cole (01:21.504)

it put me on my back foot and I was like, wait, what? Like, I'm not like a legitimate business to this person. And it just kind of, it was an awful shaming experience that kept getting compounded by other accountants that I had experiences with over time. So that was the thing that lodged in my head. But then even a couple years later when I had a baby and got a day job at a design and branding,

interactive design agency in New York City. I actually lost my job because of my boss's allergy to his numbers. So it was like, it was a really fantastic branding agency. I loved working there. He hired really talented designers. I owe so much like of my branding knowledge to that experience and love the design world. But

Shannon Mattern (02:02.273)

Mm.

Hannah Cole (02:17.58)

you know, just like a lot of people in creative fields, when he sat down with accounting people or, you know, financial professionals, they would often treat him like he's some kind of alien weirdo. And so over time, you know, that can start to seep in and give you this mindset like, that stuff isn't for me. And so despite the fact he's running this big fancy New York City branding agency, he didn't have like real bookkeeping set up. And so he would just like get nervous about money.

But he didn't actually know what his numbers were. He didn't know if he was even profitable. And so eventually what happened, you know, what the he did, he managed that the way a lot of people do who resist their numbers. He'd go try to get more work. Right. So he'd like get a new contract, get a huge check in the door and then have to turn around and pay all these expensive design contractors. Y'all know, you know what that's like. And

Shannon Mattern (03:02.017)

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (03:14.646)

And a lot of that money would just walk back out the door again. And he didn't know if he was actually making a profit from each job. And so when he finally got his bookkeeping together within the week, each one of us who worked there were sat down in the office and let go because he realized he was hemorrhaging money. So I have felt in a very profoundly like earth shaking way how much power you can lose overnight if you don't have a handle on your numbers.

Shannon Mattern (03:30.625)

Hmm.

Hannah Cole (03:44.226)

But I also think that, you know, like creative work is what connects the world. It's what builds empathy and trust. is the work that I have dedicated my life to, and I want to serve other people dedicating their life to that. And I think we need good numbers information so these disasters don't happen to us. So that is why I went back to school to study accounting. It's basically just to try and bring it back to, you know,

to create a space where people who are creative can feel valued for the amazing work they do and get good, clear, accessible information about their numbers.

Shannon Mattern (04:24.649)

You said something at the beginning of your story when the accountant that you sat down with said, when are you going to get a real job? And I think that there are so many of our people listening to this. And we just had this conversation inside of our program community this week about like certain things being said to people over time that make them feel like somehow they're not legit.

Hannah Cole (04:50.563)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (04:53.847)

that like, because they are freelancers or running their own business or they are a sole proprietor or whatever it is that somewhere along the way they've internalized this thing that like, because I don't have X, Y, Z, or I don't look like this other business or because of whatever, I'm not legit and therefore it really holds them back.

in a lot of ways from charging profitably and sustainably, really stepping into like that leadership role in their business instead of like hanging back and being the order taker and being like, let me distance myself some of this responsibility because I'm not legit. So when you said that it really just, I know so many of our listeners have had someone somewhere along the way say something to minimize them.

Hannah Cole (05:26.178)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (05:53.353)

and their experience, especially when it comes to their finances and numbers and business structure and taxes and all of those things. So thank you for like saying that. I'm so sorry you went through that.

Hannah Cole (06:03.694)

I hope, know, pain is a teacher. Pain is a great teacher. One of my beliefs is don't waste it. You know, if you're gonna go through awful pain, at least make it useful. So it's kind of like...

Shannon Mattern (06:07.479)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (06:11.71)

Mm-hmm

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I a business coach tell me before like there's profit in the pain. Like if you're willing to like learn the lessons and not try to just, let me avoid that at all costs. Like there is something to grow from here, even though I don't love that it had to hurt for me to experience this.

Hannah Cole (06:21.806)

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (06:27.128)

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (06:33.492)

No, absolutely. I mean, I feel like empathy is maybe my deepest core value. It's like why I support the creative work of other people, because I think creative work is empathy building. And I have been through really horrifying pain because of not having the tax information I needed, my boss not knowing his numbers. And so I feel like...

I really know what it feels like to feel humiliated in front of an accountant. That pain is useful in empathizing with the people who come into my orbit. I think it's really helpful to know that you're working with somebody who's like, she's been there. She's not there to shame me and to question my career choice. She's there as a woman who's been talked down to about money and who is a creative person who's been talked down to about money.

Shannon Mattern (07:25.601)

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (07:29.389)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (07:29.643)

Yeah. I love that you said creative work is empathy building. Can you tell me more about that and your perspective on that?

Hannah Cole (07:39.52)

Yeah, I mean, actually, that is my definition of design. Design is empathy. And I mean that from the tiniest unit of design all the way to architecture, urban planning, all of it. All design is empathy. Because to be the best designer, you have to put yourself in the shoes of the person you're designing for. You have to really empathize with what their pain is, right? Truly.

Shannon Mattern (07:45.814)

Mm.

Shannon Mattern (08:08.48)

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (08:08.748)

Like, and understand what they're looking for and what they react to and make them feel better, make them know how to navigate. And that can be like, that can be, my father is an architect, so like that can be the way you feel in a space. Like, I'll give you an example. So as an artist, I'm in galleries a lot. So if you go into the Chelsea Galleries in New York, which are these huge echoey, caverny,

Shannon Mattern (08:27.511)

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (08:37.91)

white space galleries, they're so echoey that everybody can hear every word you say when you're in there and that the gallerists are sitting way behind a big, big, big desk. And so when you walk in there, one, you feel tiny. Everyone can hear what you say. So you feel immediately super self-conscious and you you're distanced physically from the people running the gallery. So you do not feel like you should ask questions. You do not feel like you should engage with your friend talking about what you think of the work because you'll be overheard.

And then I noticed when a lot of galleries moved to like the Lower East Side and Chinatown, which has sort of just because of the way New York City is, those are smaller spaces and they're more intimate. It actually changed the way people interact in those spaces. Like you're closer to the gallerists, you can't help. You're so close as you walk in the door that you have to acknowledge each other. So it forces this little bit of like, hey, what's up?

and have, you know, how's your day? And like, it just creates a more humane experience. And I was, I'm gonna go break the fourth wall and say that I was gushing about you before we hit record, because I feel that way looking at your work. Like on your website, I was like, my heart rate came down. Like I felt like good web design can make you feel less confused.

Shannon Mattern (09:47.101)

you

Hannah Cole (10:01.59)

more clear, can, like, you've already done the work of identifying what my problem is, like, you know me better than I know myself. It's, re, that is empathy. So yeah, no, I believe that to my core.

Shannon Mattern (10:16.225)

So tell me how you bring that to the work you do with finances and numbers, because I can't imagine that if you're like, this is my belief, design is empathy. I can imagine, like taxes for humans, like you must approach how you work with people financially in that same empathetic way.

Hannah Cole (10:41.902)

Absolutely, absolutely. mean, like job number one is to just establish you belong here. That's my always. I mean, I just want people to feel seen because, you know, there's people have access to accountants. People can go look on the IRS website and read stuff, right? Like you can go read the whole tax code if you want to. The problem is you kind of feel like it's not for you or there's gatekeepers.

Shannon Mattern (10:48.161)

Yeah.

Hannah Cole (11:09.55)

And so I feel like a big old welcome in the door is the first step. So that's really true. And also just making it clear, like, I come from a creative culture. I am of and for creative people. I think that's, know, establishing that like cultural common ground. I think that's important. And then beyond that, also just like level setting that we don't have a tax education in the US.

We should all learn this in high school, but we don't. And so nobody knows this. And I think a lot of creative people, because we're not in those like well-resourced STEM fields, a lot of creative people are bringing, know, especially like a lot of my clients, and I think a lot of yours are women or female identified. you know, people talk to female children, their daughters differently than they talk to their sons. There's like stats that show that we say to boys, take risks.

Shannon Mattern (11:56.054)

Yep.

Hannah Cole (12:07.672)

grow your wealth. And to girls, we say, save your money, be careful. And like that little meta messages like that are gonna affect your money mindset going all the way up. So we're already like bringing a huge cultural baggage as we walk in the door. So I like to just be clear, hey, you know what? You are thinking that the fact that you don't know tax stuff means you are broken and you are quote, bad with money. Can we talk about a phrase I wanna kill?

Shannon Mattern (12:36.695)

Yes.

Hannah Cole (12:36.75)

But actually nobody knows this. Like you are not broken. The system is broken. You are not the one who's broken. Nobody knows this thing. So let's all just be clear. You're not coming into this miles behind everybody else. I think that's key.

Shannon Mattern (12:57.015)

That's so beautiful. And I hear from so many of the women in our community and our listeners that they fear that they're doing something wrong. Yet they fear getting help because of what you expressed that they're afraid to be shamed for whatever that they should have known better, that they should have done something differently, that they

Hannah Cole (13:09.485)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (13:26.935)

should have, should have, should have. And so they stay in this place of trying to like do it all themselves and figure it all out on their own. I might also be talking about like me from, you know, however many years ago, where I was just like, I think I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing, but

Hannah Cole (13:29.442)

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (13:40.003)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (13:52.689)

Every single month, I'm like, am I making decisions that are going to irreparably harm my business? Am I doing this right? I think I'm doing some things right, but what do I not know? And just the pressure of all of it. then for me, that creates my fear responses fight, like you said earlier, where you're

your boss at the, at the, agency was like, well, here's the solution. Just go hard and go make some more money. Cause that'll solve, that'll make you feel better when there are so many other pieces of data and information and nuance and levers you can pull. And it's not like, I'm just going to like, suddenly have to like shut this all down tomorrow because you know, so I say all of that to say,

Hannah Cole (14:33.997)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (14:55.967)

It's normal what you're like, just like you had said to everybody listening. It's like, it's normal if you don't know this stuff. It's normal if you feel so much pressure around doing it right, whatever that means. And it doesn't have to be all on you. So you went back to school for accounting and then, you know, because of this experience really compelled you.

Hannah Cole (15:08.109)

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (15:14.2)

So true.

Shannon Mattern (15:25.249)

How did you start when you decided, I'm going to do this? How did you get your first clients? What did that look like for you? And what are some of your favorite stories of how you've helped people?

Hannah Cole (15:39.414)

Yeah. Well, I didn't know how it was going to go. I I thought where I am now and where I started is pretty different. I thought I was just going to have a little tax prep practice. I would do taxes for creative people. And that is how I started. But and that was my vision as I went to school for accounting. But the thing about it is like when I went to school for accounting, I was like,

Shannon Mattern (15:49.309)

you

Hannah Cole (16:10.126)

Wait a minute. There's so much magic in this that the people I'm in community with are not aware of. A lot of people that I know did not learn. They might vaguely know you should put money in an IRA. IRA just for those uninitiated stands for Individual Retirement Arrangement. And it is just a thing that gives you a tax break. It's a vehicle that you put money into and then put it in investments.

to help you save a nest egg. That's what it is. So I was like, you might vaguely know what an IRA is and that you're supposed to put money in it every year. But most people have never seen the math of just how much money that will build for you if you really are consistent with it. A lot of women I know specifically are really scared of investing. And that is actually key to building a nest egg. And I just was like, and even just like little tricks.

in bookkeeping that can make your taxes a lot easier. And so it was just like, there is so much more than just tax prep. And the funny thing about running a tax prep business is that a lot of people, especially in early stages in business, like before they have the funds to hire full-time accounting, like monthly accounting services, their only touch point with an accountant is that one tax return moment a year. If that, some of them are

DIYing it with TurboTax, which is not a judgment. That is a fact. And so I think when you are just starting out, that feels like that's what accounting is, is doing your tax return. But actually, you get so much less for a tax return engagement than other types of accounting. The value of accounting is really outside of the tax. The tax return is the cattle call.

That's everyone has to do it. do, know, accounting firms are like filter feeders on those. They just say yes to everyone. They put them all on extension and they just like ram them through as quickly as they can. And to have a profitable tax prep business, you have to basically not answer questions. You have to go fast. And so you are not educating your clients. So that's the problem. Like people who are on the early stages, they hire an accountant, do...

Hannah Cole (18:36.398)

tax prep and they think they're gonna get all these other things. They think they're gonna get maybe some advising on, you are there ways I could get more out of my taxes? And yes, there are. Are there things at the end of the year I could do to save more money on taxes? Yes, there are, but we're not gonna talk about it during tax prep. there, you know, are quarterly taxes, those feel like they're gonna be a big deal for me. Can I learn about them? Yes, absolutely, but not here.

not during your tax appointment. So it's like all this stuff that actually is the stuff that makes you grow and that protects your business is stuff you don't get when you pay for a tax return. So the pivot that I made in Sunlight Tax was I started realizing that was the information I wanted to be getting out there at a price point that is more accessible than monthly accounting fees, which you can certainly pay.

Shannon Mattern (19:06.61)

Yeah.

Hannah Cole (19:34.208)

I have friends, a friend just showed me her estimate from her accountant. She pays $1,400 per month, right, for full service accounting. Now it's a really wonderful accountant who I know personally and they're great. But like just to level set about the cost of this stuff. So what I really wanted was to create kind of like a course that has

accountability built into it, but that is kind of, you know, a little bit more self study with some like ways to kind of draw you into the material and like do accountability every quarter before quarterly tax deadlines to get you that information, like tax planning, investing, using those accounts. And the big one for everyone is like making your tax systems nice and simple so that they keep working every year and you don't actually have to have a panic attack every time you file a tax return.

and stay on top of your quarterly taxes because a lot of people, the only time they ever learn about quarterly taxes is when, is a year too late, is when they get an enormous full tax, you know, an enormous tax bill and a huge amount of penalties because they were supposed to be paying quarterly. And they're like, why did this happen? There was something that could have prevented this. And yes, the answer is yes. And it's called quarterly taxes. They're actually mandatory, not optional.

And, but like, you you need the education and how they work and most accountants never sit down and do that. So I, that is something I really specialize in. That was a lot.

Shannon Mattern (21:11.605)

Yeah, no, I'm just like, we talked about like the magic that you discovered when you were, you know, going through and learning and you're like, this little piece and this little piece. And I just love how you came into that having had a creative career and seeing all of the places where, you know, this could really make a huge difference.

for people, especially women in these industries. And so what are some other little pieces of the magic that you're like, and this thing, and this thing, like this could be to your benefit, like these things could help you. Tell me more about the magic.

Hannah Cole (21:44.556)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (21:57.71)

Sure. One of the best, most magical kind of concepts to get your head around is that taxes are a lot more forgiving than people realize. It part of why I titled my book, Taxes for Humans, because I think the implication is like, humans are not perfect. And the tax code is actually built for humans. In other words, for people who are not perfect. And so, like, I'll just give you an example.

Shannon Mattern (22:08.759)

Mmm.

Hannah Cole (22:26.196)

all tax paying, even people who pay through, you know, through payroll withholding, right? So if you're an employee and you get a W-2, you don't have any choice, taxes are going to be taken out of every paycheck. And which means that you are effectively, though you're not the one doing it, it's automated in the background, so you don't really have a lot of conscious engagement with it, but you are paying your taxes every two weeks, right? Every time you get paid. When you're self-employed,

That's not happening. So you need bookkeeping and you need to pay quarterly taxes. But the thing is, even that employee is estimating, even though they're much more on top of it they're paying every two weeks. So of course they're mostly paid up when it comes to tax time. And all your friends who get W-2s at this time of year are like, I filed already and I got my refund. And all the people who are self-employed are like,

Ooh, I like to wait till the last minute because I'm really scared of what's going to happen. And I also haven't done my bookkeeping yet. Right? mean, sound familiar? So I think what's important to recognize is the whole purpose of doing a tax return, why we do it, is that you're paying all throughout the year the taxes for that year. It's a pay as you go tax system by law. And so

Shannon Mattern (23:33.814)

Yeah.

Hannah Cole (23:51.874)

They force it on employees because there's a mechanism of payroll that can do it for you. But the thing about being self-employed is that there isn't that mechanism. And that's actually for a good reason. That's like when you get paid, you invoice clients for your web design work. You're the one who has to track the invoices and the money that you make. But the benefit to you is that you get to deduct things. You have business deductions.

and you probably spend a lot of money on software, on programs, on coaching, on maybe a community that you're in. These are all business deductions for you. And the privilege that you get is that you get to take all of those off your taxable income. So that's why you have to do bookkeeping. It's not to flagellate. It's not to punish you. It's to give you a huge tax break.

I mean, if you just think about the margins, don't know if you off the top of your head, Shannon, have a sense of good margins in a design business. I don't know, do you?

Shannon Mattern (24:54.401)

So the rule of thumb that we give people in terms of figuring out their pricing is, it's so different for everybody, just depending on where they live and how much they're making and how much they're charging. But we tell them your price should be double what you want to take home so that you have money for

Hannah Cole (25:03.074)

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (25:13.71)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (25:24.329)

taxes and expenses. So yeah, that's, if that answers your question for margin.

Hannah Cole (25:26.51)

Absolutely. Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (25:31.854)

Yeah, I think that's great. So let's say maybe if you do that, you take Shannon's advice, you pay, you charge double what your expenses and taxes are. Maybe you're hoping there to make a 50 % margin. You might find when you actually get all your expenses in is less than 50%. Maybe it's 30%. But what that means though is even though you made, let's put some numbers to it. So maybe you brought in $100,000 in gross income.

invoices, total payments from clients, but you spent $70,000, right, in expenses in your business. Well, you're only paying taxes on 30 % of that. You keep 30%, $30,000. You only pay tax on $30,000. You only pay tax on your profit. In other words, like that $70,000 that you actually earned, but that you spent and reinvested into your business, that was all tax subsidized.

Shannon Mattern (26:30.582)

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (26:30.658)

Like you got a big tax break on that money. And that's actually there on purpose to encourage you as a business to make investments to help your business grow. Like it's actually a really nurturing thing. And if you think about it, tax-free deductions are meant on purpose to help you invest in your business. Because, and I wanna like get high up because I think that helps people realize why these things are there.

Shannon Mattern (26:55.99)

Yeah.

Hannah Cole (27:00.01)

Why does the government do that? Because it just loves business? Or because it's a favor or something? No. mean, sort of. But the US government's maybe number one priority is to grow the economy. And businesses are what grow the economy. So like you, your web design business is a part of the economy. And your business, when it invests in itself, makes more money.

you join a really fantastic community, you get the support you need to make better marketing decisions, to do pricing better, you're make more money. That's the whole point. And it's encouraged in the tax code. So it's actually really positive, but I think tax marketing tends to just sell fear, make you hate the IRS, make you feel like it's all awful.

Shannon Mattern (27:28.001)

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (27:52.29)

People just, know, accountants want your business, right? The more fear and confusion you feel, the more you feel like you have to just hand it to them and you're never gonna look. But like the more you realize like, when I invest in my money, in my business, I'm looking for a return on that investment. And the point there is that I grow my profit. And of course to the US, you also then grow your tax rate. And it's like a beneficial cycle for the US system.

Shannon Mattern (28:21.291)

Yeah, I'm happy to pay taxes when like, I know that it's because I have grown my business to the point that I'm impacting so many people. And it's just like, we have the resources we need to run the business well, to pay team well, to serve our clients well. We're making a profit like,

Hannah Cole (28:33.164)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (28:48.263)

I have, you know, and I'm going to do what I need to do to, you know, like strategically, minimize my taxes, but I don't feel like it's like, I have to avoid this at all costs. see people worry about, like they worry about it so much that they like subconsciously prevent themselves from making money because they're afraid to deal with the responsibility or the rules or the regulations or this whole thing that they don't understand that.

Hannah Cole (29:02.379)

Agreed.

Hannah Cole (29:10.21)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (29:17.685)

they like prevent themselves from making the money and the impact and having the fulfillment that they really could have because they're afraid of it. So I love that you are like, no, this isn't something to avoid and be scared of. Let's look at how this ecosystem really works to help everyone thrive and what's your place in it. And

Hannah Cole (29:27.79)

It's so true.

Shannon Mattern (29:42.833)

not have it be something punitive that you need to be afraid of or worried about or, you know, all of that.

Hannah Cole (29:49.558)

Absolutely. And also, like, celebrate. When your tax rates go up, it means you're making money. Like, isn't that what you want?

Shannon Mattern (29:55.891)

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, I want to, yes, I want to have a big impact. And so that's just one signal of the impact that I'm having. So you wrote a book called Taxes for Humans. You have a podcast all about taxes. Tell me more about the journey to like,

getting this book written and the decision to write it and how that all came together.

Hannah Cole (30:28.642)

Thanks. Well, I write a lot. And just for my business, I write a weekly newsletter that actually has a surprisingly large following because I just sort of talk about, I just try to connect taxes to like the life that people are living today. But I give a lot of tax workshops and I got an email in my inbox one day that said like cold email from an agent. And I was like, what is that?

Shannon Mattern (30:35.927)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (30:45.06)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (30:54.903)

you

Hannah Cole (30:57.966)

and this literary agent had been in the audience at one of my tax workshops. at the end of my workshops, I do this kind of rally and cry about how important creative work is to the world, how it is the thing that moves the culture, and that's how you change the world, which is true. I'm not saying it because I don't mean it. And she wrote to me and she was like,

Shannon Mattern (31:14.315)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah Cole (31:22.636)

That was so clear. That was mind blowing. You like really made me feel comfortable in a way I've never expected to in a tax workshop. And then you have this vision about creative people changing the world. She was like, this is a book. Would you want to talk? So that was, that was a very exciting moment for me. so yeah, so, so I got a little nudge from the universe. but I, to be honest, I loved writing this book. It was so much fun. I feel like.

All I want to do is like get the word out there and help people make more, know, one feel worthy of protecting their business, feel worthy of setting up these systems. Like that's actually a barrier. You talked about this, Shannon, but like your business is serving people and serving people well. And actually the more money you make in it, the more well you can serve them. So it's like,

Shannon Mattern (31:53.046)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (31:58.593)

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (32:16.116)

you growing, you taking up more financial space, like this is a really wonderful thing. also putting those tools, little systems, very simple systems in place to make it more automated and make it more streamlined every year. These are things that help your business stay strong. And also just to speak to this moment in our country, in our world, like who doesn't want to feel strong right now?

Like who doesn't want to feel some protection? think putting those protections in place is more important now than ever. I just, want people like me who really felt unseen by this sort of like tax and accounting world, I want us to feel seen and worthy and like do this stuff. Cause it's there to help.

Shannon Mattern (33:02.625)

When you said, want you to feel worthy to take up financial space, I got chills because one of the challenges that I see with the women that I work with is that they feel that when they receive money for the value that they provide, which is

Hannah Cole (33:11.457)

No.

Hannah Cole (33:27.619)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (33:29.289)

always way more than just their time or their skill set. We talk about value-based pricing around here and it's all about the outcomes and results that your clients can create as a result of working with you, not how much time did this take me and how long have I been doing this. But they have this core sense that they're harming someone by receiving money from them. That like, if I receive this much money from you, now I have this much more and you have this much less.

Hannah Cole (33:51.597)

Mmm.

Shannon Mattern (33:59.447)

And that makes me feel like I caused you harm instead of feeling like when I charge profitably and sustainably for myself, my family, my business, my employees, the impact that I want to have to give myself all of the tools that I need to do a really great job to care for myself and make sure like

Hannah Cole (34:05.197)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (34:27.657)

me, the person delivering the service is rested and well taken care of and mentally healthy and physically healthy. I'm I'm able to deliver for this client at the level that they deserve for the impact that they want to have with whatever we're doing together. And that's the biggest shift that I'm this. That's like why the web designer Academy exists.

Sure, we want you to get more clients. We want you to run a business that you feel good about. But we want you to stop feeling like receiving money from your clients is harming them in some way. And when you said, I want people to feel worthy of taking up financial space, you just put words to that whole concept. So thank you for saying that.

Hannah Cole (35:19.724)

I thank you. I mean, I was listening to one of your recent podcast episodes where you were breaking down these different mindset barriers around money. And I was just like, I was like thumping my desk like, amen, amen. So it's such important work. There's such an unbelievable amount of mindset work too. I think specifically, I mean, I think your audience and mine are virtually the same. And I think serving this, you know, these amazing people.

Shannon Mattern (35:26.997)

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (35:49.89)

There's a lot of just like, yeah, that worthiness, that mindset. But also like, could we do a little back and forth exercise here of like things that have been so worth our money and we would pay triple? I have so many examples of that in my life where I'm like, I would so gladly pay three times what I actually paid because I got so much value out of that thing. Like, and you can be that. And you're more likely to be that when you're charging enough and you feel rested.

Shannon Mattern (36:07.541)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (36:18.06)

Like you feel, when you're paying, when you're getting a number from a client that feels almost embarrassing to you because it's high, really high, you serve so well. You know, I think that's amazing.

Shannon Mattern (36:30.357)

Yeah. Yeah. And you said something else about wanting to feel like you have some sort of control and power and that you're not at the effect of or with what's going on in our world and country today.

Hannah Cole (36:53.709)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (36:53.939)

And you also mentioned how you felt when you came to our website, and you felt calm, and you felt like the whole point of our brand was the third place, where you're welcome. You feel seen. You're going to be just accepted for who you are. But the un-

The other branch that we had considered that we didn't go with, but it still gets like a pillar in our whole ecosystem is the quiet rebellion.

Hannah Cole (37:23.234)

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (37:31.158)

I love that.

Shannon Mattern (37:32.567)

And so it has a thread, but we didn't lead with it. But really, what we're talking about when we're talking about women and finances and money and taking up financial space and leveraging tax law to thrive, it's a quiet rebellion.

against everything that we're told, just like what you said at the top of the podcast about we're told to like save and be secure and like take care, like make sure we're taken care of and, you know, not take risks and not be bold and not, you know, be loud or big or take up any space. So this conversation is really important to that because that's like

That's why I do what I do. Web designers just happens to be my audience and pricing and marketing happens to be the vehicle. But the reason is exactly what you said. So we're so very aligned there. And I just wanted to bring that up because it is. It's a quiet rebellion. It's not how we're supposed to be.

Hannah Cole (38:50.754)

I so, could not agree more. I just was doing some writing and I just wrote this down this morning. I was like, don't diet when you're pregnant. When you are gestating the rebellion, you need your strength. And I'm talking about money here. You need money. You need money so you can do more, so you can have rest, so you can reach more clients, serve better, but also take care of yourself.

Shannon Mattern (39:06.41)

Mm-hmm.

You

Hannah Cole (39:20.3)

Like, money is also the oxygen mask you put on your face. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (39:20.385)

Yeah.

Yeah. And being willing to give yourself the tools that you need instead of bootstrapping and DIYing and hustling and spending your time to try to scrimp and save every penny. There are absolutely times to be scrappy, but there are times to just buy the thing that you need to do the job well and

Hannah Cole (39:48.013)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (39:52.087)

I see this so often where people are like, how can I get the free version of this thing? Or I'm going to spend two weeks moving from this system to this system because they raised their prices. I'm like, do you understand how much that is costing you in future? The opportunity cost of being so scrappy is so high. So tell me your thoughts on that.

Hannah Cole (40:16.0)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. my gosh, the opportunity cost of being scrappy. Yeah, you said it so well. And I think we are, mean, we're more prone. This is an audience that is more prone. And I'm including myself here. Like we creative people, we're very capable. Creativity is literally a synonym for resourcefulness, right? And that is in part our superpower, but it...

Shannon Mattern (40:33.303)

Same.

Hannah Cole (40:44.526)

can also be our kryptonite. When you try to DIY everything, yes, you're capable. You probably could do it. But do you want to spend two years learning the tax code and figuring out all the places that you can get some advantage from it? Or do you think maybe it would actually be worth some dollars to skip ahead and just get the info?

Shannon Mattern (40:46.135)

Yes.

Shannon Mattern (40:57.047)

you

Shannon Mattern (41:07.639)

Yeah, especially from somebody who's not going to make you feel less than like you should have known, minimize you, make you feel like, you've been doing it wrong this whole time. You shouldn't be doing it the way that you're doing it. So you're such a breath of fresh air. Can you tell everyone how they can connect? Like, what are all of the different ways that you can support them? I know you have your podcasts, your book, you have courses, like tell us all of the things.

Hannah Cole (41:35.532)

Yeah. All right. Lovely. I will start at the ground level and you're welcome to use my free things everyone, but also it is worth it to skip ahead. Shoots and ladders, you know, it's good to skip ahead. So I have a, I can show you on the video version, I can show you what it looks like, but I have this visual guide to tax.

Shannon Mattern (41:39.863)

you

Shannon Mattern (41:47.317)

I love it. So good.

Shannon Mattern (41:59.155)

It's so pretty.

Hannah Cole (42:01.164)

It's a visual guide to designer's tax deductions. So you can grab that from my website. This is sort of like a translator. This is like how we, as designers and creative people, talk about what we spend money on in our business. And this visual one-page printable resource shows you exactly where it goes on your tax return, just exactly how to categorize it. the little detail rules about your home office and your business mileage.

Shannon Mattern (42:24.043)

Beautiful.

Hannah Cole (42:30.51)

It's all there. So if you want that, SunlightTax.com slash deductions guide, that's a really good way to just get into my ecosystem. My book, Taxes for Humans. You know, I call it a tax guide that's as generous as you are. So.

Shannon Mattern (42:49.373)

It's beautiful, by the way. The cover makes me feel delightful.

Hannah Cole (42:56.558)

I'm so glad. Well, see, I credit the design world for that. Thank you. And then my program, Money Bootcamp, is really to get you set up with healthy systems in a day and to protect and safeguard your money and get the maximum amount out of your taxes, which is, know, lifetime financial security is the max. That's a big max. So to get more out of your taxes. And we do...

Shannon Mattern (43:19.339)

Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah Cole (43:25.358)

quarterly accountability Q and A's right timed right before the quarterly tax deadlines. So even if you never watch any of the trainings in the whole thing, just coming to each quarterly accountability session will help you calculate your tax payment right there without having to pay monthly accounting fees. So it's like price to be like one month of full service accounting, except it's a lifetime access program and you have all the resources in there. It's also built with a

calendar that you just plug into your Google calendar that you already have. And so it's not meant to be a huge amount of coursework that you have to do and feel guilty you haven't touched. Taxes happen every year. They're not like a one-time thing. So the way I've built it is that you just plug in the calendar and then, you know, when it's the middle of January, you get a little nudge from the calendar. now's the time to look at

issuing your 1099s to anyone, any contractors you paid. Here's the training in bootcamp to the 1099s, 30 minute training, right? So it's just kind of popping up the right training at the right time of year for you every time. So that's my program, Money Bootcamp, and you can go to sunlighttax.com and the big yellow button in the middle sends you to bootcamp. you can check that out. But my goal really is just to serve, you know, like I love our conversation, Shannon, I just want.

I want women, some men too, you know, I'm not exclusionary, but I think a lot of women have received really terrible messages about money that I would love to kick out of the room. And so I just want, you know, wonderful ethical people doing amazing empathy building work in this world to have more power to put art, to change the world with our amazing creative work. That's my goal.

Shannon Mattern (44:56.736)

Right.

Shannon Mattern (45:17.033)

That's beautiful. So I just have one last question for you before we wrap up that I ask everyone that comes on the show. And that is what belief about yourself did you have to change to get to where you are today?

Hannah Cole (45:33.548)

You know, I'm going through frankly, a little bit of a hard moment in business right now, because the world is changing so dramatically. And I think a belief that I have gotten to is I'm capable of this. Like it is actually a little scary and rocky out there, but I have gone through a lot of pain and I've done harder things than this. So that belief that I'm capable.

Shannon Mattern (45:40.321)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (46:01.127)

so beautiful that that resilience and that belief that like, I can get through this. It's just beautiful. And, know, for those of you listening, if you're feeling that too, it's like, put yourself in community with people who can, like, hold you through that, because it's not easy. And it's way harder trying to do it on your own.

Hannah Cole (46:10.658)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (46:30.415)

I've had those challenging times as well, where you feel like, how am I even ever going to make it through this? Like, and it's always been, people, other people who have really helped carry me through, which has been,

Beautiful. So Hannah, it's just been so awesome to meet you. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I know that you gave people some links before, but can you just tell everybody what's the best place to go to get all of those things that we talked about?

Hannah Cole (47:09.336)

Sure, my website, sunlighttax.com is the hub for everything. You can find everything I mentioned right there. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (47:15.369)

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it.

Hannah Cole (47:19.584)

I loved our conversation Shannon. Thank you so much.