#175 – Web Design Business Marketing Insights From Inside the Web Designer Academy

Shannon Mattern (00:01.39)

Hey there and welcome back to the Profitable Web Designer podcast. This week I have a really special episode for you. I recently hosted a virtual retreat for women web designers who wanted to plan out their 2026, take a strategic pause, like decide what they want to create and like look at their vision for their business and their life in 2026 and.

really reverse engineer their strategy for creating the outcomes that they want. And one of the things that we talked about pretty significantly during that retreat was marketing, because it's one of the biggest sticking points and opportunities that we see for women web design business owners to really create the outcomes.

that they want and it's not about doing more marketing. It's about changing your entire relationship and thought process with marketing. So the episode that I have for you this week is a little bit of teaching and training from me on our marketing philosophy and strategy that we teach and use in the Web Designer Academy. And then a few of our Web Designer Academy students stopped by to share their experience.

with implementing our mindset, implementing our marketing strategies and the mindset shifts that they created as they started implementing it and the outcomes and results that they have created. So I'm so excited for you to listen in on this and I hope that you hear some things that really unlock a lot of the...

overwhelm or maybe like marketing shame that you have when you keep telling yourself, I just need to be more consistent. I just need to show up. I just need to be more visible. I just need to put myself out there. And all of the pressure that you put on yourself to do marketing in a certain way. I hope after you listen to this episode, you can give yourself permission to approach your relationship with marketing in an entirely different.

Shannon Mattern (02:12.278)

way. So let's go ahead and dive in to our episode on marketing and getting clients with some of our Web Designer Academy students.

Shannon Mattern (00:00.161)

what my experience has been in coaching women web designers since 2016 and the things that traditionally trip us up, keep us hustling and stuck. So some of you may have seen this framework that I recently came up with for

presentation that I recently did all about the five secrets to high converting proposals. That's a different training. We're not going to get into that today, but I call it the make more money framework. And it's really all about where to put your focus, time, effort, and energy to make more money in your business, but also like create more time capacity to really like

create and bring to life the vision that you've crafted for yourself. That's really important to you. That's like why you run your own business in the first place and don't work for someone else or don't want to work for someone else. And so I like to think of this in a quadrant. so on the bottom, from left to right, we have actions and things that we do that create less

money to more money. And on the right hand side, we have things that take more time to take less time, to taking less time, right? And so there's usually three things that we're told or we just think that we should do to grow our businesses as web designers. And the first one is more clients, right? Like we all, every single one of you,

has something on your list to get more clients, more clients, more clients. And it's pretty obvious, right? Like the more people we have paying us, the more money we make. And so it's like, to get more clients, I need a LinkedIn strategy. I need an SEO strategy, an AEO strategy, you know, to be on LinkedIn and have a portfolio and case studies and testimonials and all of these things. you know, so it's like, let's,

Shannon Mattern (02:24.055)

do all of this stuff to get found online, differentiate, be chosen, like all of this stuff, but it's always capped by time. So the more clients you have, the more time it takes to market, sell, deliver, serve, and manage to create all of those things, right? Karen's jumping ahead. I wanna see what's in the top right quadrant.

So that's the first thing and like, yes, it creates more money, but it also takes way more time to just keep stacking up those clients. The second thing that we're told to do is like, get better, get better. How many of you are like, okay, I need to like, like go learn all the things. think Carla said I'm rubbish at this. It's like.

get better at your craft, learn more things, improve your skills, implement processes to be more efficient. And you spend a whole lot of time learning and perfecting, which really is just delaying your results and like, like costing you money that you could be making right now. So, you know, this is one of those things that it's like, it's like,

maybe taking you less time to do these things at an end, but it's costing you more time upfront. And then the third thing that we think we need to do is like add more, add more, more services, more deliverables. Like I got to learn this strategy and add this thing. So even if you are charging more, right, you're actually ending up making, it's going to take you more time to deliver and you end up like coming out behind.

If you're just adding more and more and more. So.

Shannon Mattern (04:22.283)

I always want to know like what quadrant you most find yourself in. Like when you look at like out of these three places, like where are you mostly sitting in right now? Or do you mostly identify with or the one you think like, yes, this is going to be the one that's going to like get me to my goals because this is where I see people get stuck. And so

You can go ahead and yeah, so Karen's like upper left with efficiency and systems or top left with efficiency and systems. Carla's whole thing was like top left. Jennifer is like.

I gotta move this out of the way. Yeah, upper left because I'm not so great at getting clients. And Carla said I definitely have some bottom left too. Yeah, so this is where I see people get stuck. so...

I want to talk about this bottom left quadrant. will tell you, Karen, what's up here in a little bit. Yes, and like learning more, more courses, all of the things. And so.

Shannon Mattern (05:48.435)

I want to start with this more clients thing and like, regardless of what you all decide to do, I want you to make an informed decision because I want you to think about like the conventional wisdom about marketing. Your business could be keeping you overworking, hustling and stuck, right? So a lot of you are already like a lot of us do marketing for our clients.

So we're pretty clear on, or we're not like, if we're not doing marketing for our clients, we're building a tool for them that helps them do their own marketing. And so there are four types of marketing, social, search, paid and relationships. So social media is, we all know what these are. I don't really have to explain those to you. But if we plotted those on a continuum,

in terms of effort, traffic, and volume to impact trust and price, like your price point of the service, from left to right, I'm going to plot these out for you for strategies that are for high traffic, lots of effort, and high volume to requiring low traffic, low effort, and low volume to low impact, low trust, low price, high impact, high trust, high price.

Let's look at how, where these fall on this continuum, right? So our social media, our search and our paid traffic are for businesses that have lower price offers that require less trust for someone to make a purchase, right? And those businesses require a high amount of traffic

higher like effort to get a purchase and just a higher volume of marketing to create the revenue that they want to create. And so these are high traffic, high volume, high effort strategies. And we need that volume because the trust is very low when people are just seeing you online for the first time with an ad. requires

Shannon Mattern (08:13.13)

a lower price point to get a sale or like many more touch points. On the other hand, relationship marketing is for higher price offers that require a higher level of trust and have a higher like impact on the client, right? And so those relationship marketing

doesn't require nearly as much traffic, effort or volume to create the same amount of money as a business that would require social search and pain. And so when we think about the types of businesses that fit well in these marketing strategies, our web design businesses that we run one-on-one services, consulting, coaching,

Relationship marketing is the best match for us because we have higher price services that require much more trust. And also like Chloe so eloquently put it, we are one person businesses. We do not have the resources to be doing all of the things. And doing all of the things doesn't even bring us the right types of people or in the volume that we would need for it to make a difference.

So relationships are hands down the best strategy for web designers. all of those other strategies are like, it's a dissonance and a disconnect when I'm like, but this is what I do for my clients, right? I'm going to build them a tool or an engine that allows them to do high traffic marketing on

for their websites that they are gonna be using these strategies. And one of my coaching clients, one of my private coaching clients was like, but I gotta walk the talk, walk the walk. And I was like, but do you? Like, do you have to demonstrate that you're an expert at social search and paid marketing by bringing clients in that way into your business when that strategy is not even a match for your offers?

Shannon Mattern (10:38.085)

And so that thought was like slowing her down that she had it had to be doing all of those things in order to be legit and be taken seriously. It's counterintuitive that we don't have to do things the same way that we do them for our clients. And one of the I thought I updated this slide for this training because the admin bar did this survey in 2024.

but we recently did a pricing survey for the Web Designer Academy in 2025 that showed that I think 87 % of respondents were using social media, but only 7 % said it was effective or something like that. And so we want you to shift from

spending any capacity thinking like when you sit down, you're like, I should be doing this. I should be doing this. I should be doing this. And you're not doing it. And then you make these big lists and grand plans, and then you feel bad about yourself. That drains actual capacity to focus on the things that really do move the needle for a business like yours.

LinkedIn is one of those interesting places, right? Depending on how you choose to use it. You could choose to use it in a traffic marketing way where you're creating a bunch of content and doing things there and trying to get seen and grow your following and establish thought leadership and things like that. Or you can use it to build relationships. So I think when we, when we think about LinkedIn strategy from the perspective of a web designer Academy,

If I'm bringing in a person to talk about LinkedIn, I'm going to be bringing in a person to talk about LinkedIn in this quadrant. So this is one of the biggest ways that I see people like really get stuck in the in like this quadrant here is like

Shannon Mattern (12:54.448)

Okay, so my focus is gonna be on getting more clients. Of course, we're never gonna tell you like, you don't need to ever do anything to get more clients. We want you to be doing things to get more clients. It's just what are you doing? And how are you efficiently using your time? So I loved this. I don't know if you guys know who Jen from the Tonic site shop that she sells Shopify templates.

I'm on her email list. got this email about like this quadrant that she created as she was like planning out her year. I think it was last year. And I think it was like low impact. Like her quadrant was a little bit different, but it was like low impact, low outcome. And this is what she called. She called that quadrant. And that's what I call this quadrant for us, right? It's like, I'm gonna...

BPG because I don't know who's got kids around, but stuff we don't do anymore. You can take that off of your should list of like, I should be more consistent on social media. I should be more consistent with my content creation. I should, should, I think there are some strategic things that we could do for sure. Like, I can make sure my technical SEO is good and things like that. But like,

spending time here and we're going to have a marketing panel next, which I'm super excited about. I think it's something that you can confidently let yourself off the hook for. Unless you're like, but this is really fun and I'm excited to do it. Give yourself the gift of doing things for your business that excite you and are fun.

Like Carla was like, I want to do a YouTube channel because I think it would be really fun. Now, if she said, I want to do a YouTube channel because I think it's the only way to like be legitimate and get clients. I'm going to be like, I'm going to call you on that. And like this falls into this quadrant, but she's like, but it sounds really fun. I love to be on camera and your personality is infectious and why not? Right. So.

Shannon Mattern (15:14.142)

This is one place where I see people get super tripped up because they're like, well, I don't have enough clients. I need more clients and I need to put myself out there and be consistent. And they put all of these, this pressure and parameters on themselves to do that. Or you're feeling guilty about like all of the courses you bought because you thought you needed more skills, efficiency, all of this stuff, or you're like needing to add more stuff.

But hands down and Erica can, Erica and all of the WTA fam can back me up on this. Hands down, your number one opportunity for creating more time capacity, like creating that vision, reaching those revenue goals is simply charging more. I know it sounds so simple and so obvious. It takes the least amount of effort. It helps you make more money.

because the reality is most women web designers massively undervalue what we do. We massively, massively undervalue what we do. And some of you might be thinking, even if you're in the web designer academy, you might be thinking there's no way I could charge more than I am right now. I won't get any clients, the economy, I don't know anyone that would pay that much. I need to find all the investment-minded clients. I'm already charging the going rate for this service.

I tried charging more and I heard I can't afford it or not right now or maybe later or didn't hear back at all. And we think the solution to this problem is niching and pivoting like VIP days, changing CRM systems and processes, like all of the things.

The reality is, and we've audited over 1500 web design businesses here at the Web Designer Academy. Carla asked in the staff about how much undercharging, how much women undercharge based on like as compared to men. We just did a pricing survey where we differentiated on gender and it is

Shannon Mattern (17:44.261)

And maybe Erica can find that and pop that in the chat for you so we can look at the data. But we've audited over 1500 women owned web design businesses. And like, just even looking from the outside looking in, you're only seeing the tip of the iceberg. Like, typically, they're making less than half of what they want to be making. They're working like,

60 hours a week, if not more, without making a full-time income. Always worried about making sure their clients are happy or worried about where their next client is coming from and just never, like never getting, never even pressing pause to take time to like consider that they could have the business vision. And these are all of the things that we hear people trying to do to solve the problem.

and it doesn't work, it's not the solution because all of the things that we think are the problem aren't really the problem. And I get so passionate about this because these are the things when you think that this is a problem and then you go after the solution from that place, you're taking actions to solve the wrong problems.

We wanna help you fix the focus and fix on the real time and money leaks in your business, which undercharging is a huge one. Just believing all of these things to be true and just operating as if the sky is blue is one way that we just don't charge nearly enough for what we're doing.

over delivering. Like, I think Karen said this so beautifully. She was like, when I wake up and I don't look at my phone or computer first thing, then I put myself first and I have a more productive and efficient day versus I wake up, I open my email immediately and instantly stressed about all the things I have to do and everything everybody needs from me and my inbox.

Shannon Mattern (20:10.668)

ends up dictating my day. I'm dropping everything for client emergencies. have projects that drag on forever and ever. You say yes to avoid conflict. Imposter syndrome, a lot of us have fraughty feelings. We think our website should be getting us more traffic in clients. We're like, I'm a web designer. I know how to build websites, but you have the secret.

website shame, you're like, but my website should be bringing me more clients. And if my website's not bringing me more clients, I must really not be a good enough web designer. And you feel like you constantly feel like you're doing something wrong, right? But your business model is not designed for you to be having your website be the source of like having your website traffic be the source of your clients.

Right? You need high trust, high impact marketing strategies, which is very, very different. That social dread that I talked about, you think you should be more visible, more active on social media. You think you should have a portfolio or more client testimonials or all of the things. Or you're just feeling kind of trapped by the business that you've built, right? Like you're stuck in the weeds of the day to day.

you maybe don't want to raise your prices because you're like, that's more responsibility for me. Or this is one that we see a lot with people in the next level mastermind is that they're like, success didn't look the way I thought. I'm making plenty of money, but I'm not happy. And so this is the stuff that once we clean this stuff up, and I could go into this, but

You know, I want to make sure we have plenty of time before our student panel. It's the employee mindset, the people pleasing, the codependency with our clients, taking on responsibility for things that aren't ours, being in their wallet, adding more things so that they can get their money's worth or just feeling overly responsible for their results when you can't jump into their business and run it. The perfectionism, the focusing on selling a product or deliverables or a service.

Shannon Mattern (22:38.178)

instead of what you're really selling and like really stepping up into that leadership role. So that's all of this stuff. The skills, you build the skills as you take on. we're, we all know that like with AI, that just changed everything. None of us could have predicted that that was coming and that we would need to learn how to use that in our businesses for our clients.

just going to constantly be learning those things as we go. And we have to trust that the most important skill that we have is the ability to learn something new and to always keep growing that we don't already have to know at all. And so this is your biggest opportunity, but it's cleaning up all of this that's going to make this so, so much easier. I know that was my huge

soapbox moment. But for, I'm going to stop sharing before we get to our student panel. I'm so curious what mindset shifts or revelations or thoughts that you might have had about like what is on your list and what you're like, you know what, I don't think that needs to be on my list anymore. So

Or maybe I could tweak that or yeah, I'm so curious to hear what your thoughts are after my little soapbox moment there.

Shannon Mattern (24:18.902)

There's one thing that came up for me as you were talking, Shannon, because I've been in WDA since May, gone through all the lessons. I'm doing the relationship marketing. It's working. It's been a game changer. But when I put down posting to LinkedIn on my should be doing, I'm like, why am I doing that? Like, why do I still think I need to be posting to LinkedIn? Why LinkedIn? Well, because there's bigger companies out there with bigger budgets. I really don't know. Is it still the corporate me saying everyone's on LinkedIn?

As Carla was saying, yeah, there's a lot of people on LinkedIn, not a lot of them are active or anything. But when you were saying you can still post a LinkedIn, but don't make it about the awareness stage. Make it about, you know, traffic. Don't make it about traffic, getting people to be aware of your business. Use it to build relationships and find like I can actually see myself using LinkedIn to find more referral partners, know, other website designers, graphic designers.

photographers, know, things like that. I can see it. That would be a very strategic way for me to be using LinkedIn. All the other stuff when it's like awareness and traffic. like, the thing is I post so infrequently on Facebook, my Facebook business page and I'm like LinkedIn that their algorithms, if you're not active on it, they're not going to your reach will go like maybe this far and then it'll just fall flat because you're not using it often enough and that impacts their algorithm. So

To me, it's just not worth it. But it's like still having been in WDA for so long and still having that thought, that pull towards social media, that's interesting to me. But again, it's like being reminded you don't have to do that. You can use it to your strategic advantage, but in a way that makes sense for me. Yes, I love the premise of what you were sharing is like, it's because corporate clients with bigger budgets are here. Great premise.

But are we going to attract them with creating content? Why not just cut to the chase, connect with the person, do our outreach strategy, add value, all of those pieces to an actual person instead of passively. If I'm here creating content and making myself look like an expert, then maybe possibly someday someone will notice me and then maybe they'll reach out and then because they reached out,

Shannon Mattern (26:46.853)

I feel validated that I'm good enough to help them. It's like that whole concept that we talk about in marketing momentum of like, let me get dressed up real pretty and go to the dance and help someone asks me to dance. And if nobody asks me to dance, then I must not have been good enough. I must not have worn the right outfit, done my hair correctly, said the right thing. It's like, no, make the first move. And it doesn't have to be like,

do you want to hop on a sales conversation with me right now? It's like, it's just like.

being the first one to reach out with something of value to develop that relationship. So yeah, and Sarah said, what I'm learning on LinkedIn is commenting and engaging on other people's posts. That is building relationships. That's exactly how we talk in the web designer academy about like warming up to an outreach. Like to cold, like strangers you don't know, the best way to get to know them

is to leave a comment and then like do it outreach. You know? So, so good. Thank you for sharing that Amber. And it's like when we don't feel like, when I say unsafe, I don't mean to be like dramatic, like we're not physically unsafe, but when we feel unsafe and unsettled and uneasy about our current clients, then to add more to that feeling of unsettled, unsafety, ease and worry, our nervous system is never going to let us do it.

And it does really sneaky, tricky things to us when our subconscious is like, she's a highly driven person. She likes to work, but it's not safe for her to add more to this unstable situation or a situation that feels unstable. So let's go send her over here to work really hard on something that's actually not going to create.

Shannon Mattern (28:47.869)

more clients for her because it's not safe for her to get more clients. But she's working and she feels like she's progressing. And that's where we kind of almost fool ourselves into like, I'm doing all the things, but nothing's working. like, it doesn't feel safe for it to work. So you're never gonna actually let yourself have it because it's too unsafe to have it. So you identified.

the biggest shift that you can make is to create the psychological safety around your current client relationships, because only from that place will you allow yourself to have more. And then it will be so much easier for you to add more clients or whether you raise prices or you reduce the capacity. These aren't zombie clients in terms of like

their projects are dragging on, their zombie clients in terms of like, they are eating your mental capacity. And that's the most powerful place is when it's your quote unquote faults, it's my doing, I can undo it. I can decide to think something different in any given moment. And so, but it's a practice and it's repeating it and it's like doing it to where like,

I used to believe that thing. I don't believe that anymore. I feel different. And from that place of feeling different, you can take different actions. So that's why I love being in rooms like this so much. even like I'm in a, I'm in a mastermind here locally. And I'll say something. And we always talk about this in web designer Academy and next level. Like I'll say it like the sky is blue. And

we just don't even realize what we're saying. And then someone's like, interesting. You said that. And I'm like, I didn't even know that I believe that. There's a few things I've noticed myself saying lately that I'm like, it's interesting that I just keep saying that like it's a fact. And I get to really explore that. So thank you for sharing. We are going to move on to our student panel discussion about marketing and getting clients, because I think this is one of the

Shannon Mattern (31:06.43)

the biggest sticking points yet opportunities for a lot of us to create some capacity around our marketing. So I'm gonna hand it over to Erica to introduce our panel. And yeah, we'll go from there. So Erica. All right. So yes, we have some Web Designer Academy students.

who are joining us today. So Sarah Gio is going to be one of our panelists. We have Amber Jones and Amanda Cormier. We are going to, Amanda, I say your last name right?

You did. Amazing. And so we are going to just ask them some questions and have a discussion and kind of see where the see where the conversation goes. So we're to be talking about their experience in Web Designer Academy just in general with some of the marketing things that we chat about. So we are going to go in order from.

We're gonna go Sarah, Amanda, Amber. That's the order you're on in my screen. And so for the first question, I would love for you to just like briefly introduce yourself and then answer the question. And then once that person is finished, the next person can just unmute and answer. So our first question today, we're gonna do a bit of a before and after.

So before joining Web Designer Academy, how did you approach your marketing? And then how did you approach it after working with us? So Sarah, we'll start with you, introduce yourself, and then feel free to answer the question. Yeah, so I'm Sarah Gio, or you can call me Sarah G from saradesign.com. And I'm a web designer and copywriter. And my before was like the slides, like social media.

Shannon Mattern (33:13.405)

Just get on social media as much as you can. Don't talk to anybody. Don't do any outreach. That's horrible. I remember I recorded a year's worth of Instagram posts and just had them going out. I took a week to do that and just had them going out three times a week. And since joining, I saw the effects of doing direct outreach and

talking to the people that I had relationships with and making new friends and new relationships. And like the proof was there. It was easy at that point to be like, okay, I can set aside all this social media stuff that I was doing before because this other thing is what's working. And it was funny because you you get referrals, like everybody says, or lots of people will say, all of my clients come from referrals. I need to fix that. And I was like, well, no, that's where they all come from.

All of my clients come from referrals or from a relationship. So it's like completely transformed. yeah, that's the after is that I'm leaning way into relationships and directly talking to people. And I do the social for the fun side and to stay in touch. I just really quick before you go, Amanda, I love so much that you were like talking to people. That's horrible. And you're like the outreach queen these days.

I became outreach queen thanks to being in here. So now I'm my favorite. Amazing. so curious, Sarah, did any of the social media create clients for you? Probably. I mean, there was one, I did an experiment where I did 30 days live on Instagram on social media. Because of that, I took that to my newsletter. And then,

I got a big sale from that, like a three month contract that was like the most I had ever made. So that was kind of indirectly from Instagram, but it was someone that I had known for years that was on my email list. That's like the most direct thing I can see. Other than that, the relationships that I've made, like they start following me on Instagram and then sometimes I'll share about a deal and then they end up buying, but it's usually the people that I already know. Interesting.

Shannon Mattern (35:33.2)

Thank you.

Hi, everybody. My name is Amanda Cormier. I do strategic branding and visual brand design. I'm in the East Coast of Canada, and I've been in WDA for over a year and next level the same amount of time, I suppose. before, I've heard of outreach before, before I came into WDA, was tasked with outreach, could never do it.

All of my business would either come from like retainer works, like I'd work in fractional sort of marketing capacities and any other fun project work like branding that I would get would just come from contacts that I knew and it would be referral. So I would just sit and wait for those things to come in. And what I want to share about being in WDA is how the shift went from sitting and waiting and feeling

really gross about reaching out to anyone feeling like it was looking like I was wanting to make a sale. was more about just building relationships. And I know it sounds easy at the surface, but inside for me, it was a big struggle. And the first thing that I did was something that I wanted to do for a while. wanted to send out

my client's client gifts. It was something that was on my list and I was like, I think I'm going to make this into an outreach strategy. So I did that and I didn't really expect to get anything out of it. I sold a $4,500 project from one client. think I sent out like 10 little gifts. And so that was, that was positive for me. But the even bigger shift was when I started making friends inside of WDN Next Level.

Shannon Mattern (37:26.72)

And they would ask me, do you know anybody who might be interested in XYZ service? And I would intro them to my clients. The excitement that I got back from my clients, they were so excited that I was introducing friends that were recommended and trusted. And I was like, is this what would happen if someone on the other end might be looking for something that I might be offering?

Are they going to be excited to work with me? And it was like, it was a big shift and it got me thinking. I shared this with some, some of the people inside of next level. Like the same thing happened. There was driveway sealers that had come to our house looking to steal our driveway. And my husband's like, yeah, for sure. Do it right away. And I was like, why do we need our driveway seal? He's like, Amanda, said, we don't have to call. They're here.

they're getting it done and in half an hour it was done. It was like the best gift because they came and knocked on our door. So for me, I've now changed to, I haven't done a lot of outreach just because of life and things that have been happening in my business right now. But looking to 2026 and talking to some of my peers inside of next level, it's like, instead of outreach being the thing on my list or relationship marketing, that's like,

the thing that I'm avoiding, it's like the thing that I want to do so bad, but I just can't get to it because I've got like, you know, December and all the things. So it becomes this thing that I'm like so excited to fully jump into. And I owe that all to this group of nice people and this lovely lady, Shannon Madden. That's all I have. So good. What an awesome shift.

Shannon Mattern (39:18.572)

I'm Amber Jones. I'm in North Texas and I've been in WDA since May, but I was in the corporate world for a very long time before that about 20 years. I was in marketing, did marketing the whole time and before WDA, what I should say, I don't do marketing currently, but I am a website strategist, designer and a conversion copywriter. I, and I do SEO. So I do everything from beginning to end on my clients websites. And before WDA, the last

I've been in business three years. The first two years I spent a lot of time building my network locally. went to, I was in BNI, which is Business Networking International, if people are aware of that. I left it in August, a little too much drama for me, but anyway, that's more of an inside story. I joined chamber events, I went to networking events, and I was building this network of contacts. I think I had a business, like a stack of business cards about this big.

And finally, when I wasn't leveraging that network, would meet someone at a networking event. And if they asked me, like if they were showing interest in my business and they wanted to set up a discovery call, of course I would follow up with them on that. But I wasn't actually actively reaching out, like going through my contact list and saying, you know what, I'm going to reach out to this person. Like I'm planning ahead, trying to book ahead. I'm just going to see if they're interested or just tell them more about me or just.

Have a discovery call just just have a call no pressure, but I wasn't doing that until I joined WDA and so one of the activities that you do kind of early on or actually I think it was a webinar that you did Shannon about.

I forget what it was called. Probably the five day marketing challenge. That's it. it. That webinar was brilliant because you actually you when you're going through that webinar, it was a workshop. You actually go through list out all of your contacts, which I think I had about 150 at that point. And so I listed it out. It's now in a CRM, which I never thought I would ever do. And I started going through.

Shannon Mattern (41:28.481)

the WTA, you know, they provide scripts, there's all kinds of email scripts for any scenario that you could ever need, and you can adapt them. So I just started going down the list and I started prioritizing the contacts I thought, you know, that I really connected with, or that could really use my service, because we all know that most websites are not great. And that systematized my outreach, which

When I was in the corporate world, I worked very closely with salespeople. Like that's what I did. That's how they did things. That's how they built relationships. They did outreach through email, through LinkedIn. They built those relationships. And I was like resisting everything about the corporate world because I was so sick of it. But that part does work. mean, so for me, what WDA has done so far, and I haven't even, I've just scratched the surface on what you guys teach.

what it allowed me to do, and I made a note about this because I wanted to say it correctly. It taught me how to turn my network into a pipeline versus just a collection of contacts. And I've been booked out since, mean, summer was kind of slow. think we all kind of experienced that. But for the remainder of the year, I was booked out consistently, and it was because I was doing consistent outreach. So that alone has been an absolute game changer for me.

my goodness. of the things you said to me when we were talking about outreach, and I don't remember if you said it on a call or one of our one-on-one calls, but you're like, I'm just going to assume people want to help me. Yes. Well, I was like, what a powerful mindset shift to go from like, I don't want to be pushy. don't want people to think I just want their money to, I'm just going to assume people want to help me.

when you're asking, do you know anyone who or, you know, and I was just like, that was like a mic drop moment, golden, like a mindset shift for you to go from like, I don't want to bother people to, I'm just going to assume they want to help me. Like so powerful. And I never would have thought that in the corporate world, anybody who's worked in the corporate world, you know, all about it. It's like everybody's out for themselves and they're all chasing the brass ring. I've talked about this on the podcast.

Shannon Mattern (43:49.334)

And it creates an environment of scarcity and it creates like toxic competition. Well, when you run your own business, I work with other website designers, all the women in the Academy. I mean, we're all networked with each other and we can, we all build on different platforms. I don't build on WordPress. I build on Wix and Squarespace. So, and we all do different things for our clients, but we're all so helpful to each other. Like there's no dumb question. It's just, I don't know. I can't say enough about the Academy. So.

Amazing. So good. Thank you. Okay, next question. So Sarah, we're back to you. What Web Designer Academy strategy or piece of coaching has made the biggest difference in your marketing?

Shannon Mattern (44:37.687)

I think it's a mix, first is the package matrix. Like I had done proposals before, but the way the package matrix is designed, completely different, like how it just protects your boundaries and gets a bunch of like subtle nuanced messaging across to the client and sets you up for success later. If they're like, can we add this thing? And you're just like, sure. We want to upgrade to that higher package that you didn't pick before.

Like that was a huge game changer. I've pivoted my business in a different way right now where I'm not using it, but it's amazing. And then...

the outreach, Pete, the like letting go of social. That's just, mean, back to the same topic as before. That has just been huge. And turning that into something that I do regularly. Having our five minute marketing on the WDA calls. So like, even if you did no other marketing, you'd be doing one a week in there. Like if you haven't been doing any up till this time, then you're gonna get, you know, 365 of those done in this year if you come to that call.

And it's just, ended up doing way more than that. So I know you said one, but that's two. We'll take three. It's fine.

Shannon Mattern (46:05.559)

For me, it has to be the Patrick matrix as well because I always struggled with trying to make the most accurate guess possible of what my client might be willing wanting to pay. And so giving them choices has been, it's been incredible for me. And the other thing I think is the strategy where Shannon kind of, don't know if it's called a specific thing.

But she says things like, get to be in control. It's our business. We get to do things how we want to do them, how we feel good about doing them. that permission, giving myself that permission slip to be able to renegotiate a deadline or do something simply to say, I'm not working this week and just

say it as the sky is blue, has empowered me to feel like it's okay to run a business how it feels good for me. And I've never felt that before. I've been doing, I've been running my own business now for like 22 years this year. So huge. It's been amazing.

Shannon Mattern (47:32.597)

both of those things, everything that they just said. But one thing that has stuck out to me is the concept of passionate detachment. And that ties back to the outreach. So when you're, I think someone said earlier, when you're reaching out to people, you almost feel like you're bothering them, you know, or you're being salesy or pushy. And one thing that you learn in WDA is that you're helping people. That's what sales is about. But it's also this concept of passionate detachment where

You're passionate about everything that you do. You're passionate about your outreach, about your services, your clients, but you detach emotionally from the outcome of your outreach. Meaning, if I send an email to someone and they don't respond, that is not a reflection that I'm a bad website designer. That is just, they're busy or whatever is going on, or they just don't need me right now. But it's detaching from expectations that somebody else who you can't control.

is going to react in a certain way. And that takes off a ton of pressure on the outreach to the point where, and I think many people have said this before, it feels like I'm not doing enough. Like it feels like I'm not doing enough marketing because it's easy. It is so easy. I, I sure other students can attest to this. It's working. Like even though I do have, I do have clients, mean like I have colder leads that, you know, may ghost me, but that's fine. have that many more.

clients are more interested people actually reaching out to me and booking a discovery call and becoming a good client. So there's always going to be somebody that you're not going to be able to serve or who's not an ideal client for you. But it's detaching from that expectation from that outcome that has really helped me and you just do it. Just ask as Shannon says just ask them. I mean, what's the worst that can happen? good. Yes. Thank you for sharing that.

I also love passionate detachment. All right, Sarah, what was the most challenging part of improving your marketing and how did you work through that challenge? The most challenging part is managing my mind around things. And this continues to be a challenge, but I'm getting better and faster at it. It's just like the problems are shifting, I'm ongoing work, right?

Shannon Mattern (49:58.421)

because I've been conditioned for 50 years to act a certain way, to people please, to not disappoint anyone, to protect myself. So like, even though, you know, we're joking about me being queen of outreach or how easy it is, I'm still in those moments where I have to reach out and I'm like, well.

This is intrusive. Now I'm doing cold outreach. I'm like, this is intrusive. They're going to be pissed. They're going be yelling at me or whatever. And trying to lean into like what Amber was saying. I'm just going to assume people want to help me. But then being okay with the risk that someone will be annoyed and might say something rude to me in return. But it's worth it to me. The risk is worth it.

So I keep doing it anyway. yeah, working through that, just letting people feel their feelings. And Shannon has told us this so many times and it helps to continue to hear it. That like, if they feel annoyed, that's okay. They get to feel annoyed. If they're mad at you, all right. We don't need to work with them. Not that that's easy. Not that I won't be in tears sometimes, but more often than not, people...

are the opposite of that. They're like so happy. I did an outreach, a cold outreach on LinkedIn. I sent to my first 10 LinkedIn cold outreaches with Sales Navigator. Two people were like, yeah, sure, I'll see your video. I was like, what? People said yes right away from this first 10. I recorded a video, I sent it to this one woman and she said no to the help, but like in the video,

I was myself, I'm like, oh, my husband just came home with my daughter. She might bust into the room. And afterwards she's like, I'm so glad that you said that your daughter was maybe gonna bust into the room. She's like, it was so real. And like in this AI environment, I just like really appreciated that you said that. And I also went, wait, I told her it was gonna be 90 seconds and it was like 20 minutes long. She's like, every time I send a video, I say it's gonna be 30 minutes. It's always an hour. And it's just like, it's not as scary as I think.

Shannon Mattern (52:13.115)

I know that when those scary things do happen, I have this community to come back to and everybody will help me through those moments. And I just move along. Major shifts.

There you said so much good stuff in there that I lost track of the question. So can you repeat it, Erica? Of course. What was the most challenging part of improving your marketing and how did you or are you working through that challenge? Yeah, for me, was, it was feeling like I was bothering someone and nervous about getting on so many calls because as I mentioned, I like to just sit behind my laptop and wait for it to happen.

And I think I got past the being worried about getting on a call with Shannon saying, you know, there's, it's just another person on the other side of the computer. You can write a list. You can tell them that you're looking at your list, kind of like Sarah's, you know, my daughter might bust into the room, like just be super transparent. It's just a person on the other end. And we really worked through, it's not bothering someone because if they don't,

want to respond to you, they won't respond to you. And if they get upset, it's okay to get upset. But I've also seen firsthand how excited people get and how it can be such a gift that all of that worry about what if somebody's out on vacation and I don't know, I shouldn't be bothering them. That's all kind of, you know, gone to the wayside because we're all capable human beings who if we're busy, we just don't respond. And I don't need to carry that for somebody else. So

That's been a shift for me. So good. Thank you. I love that. The biggest challenge for me, going back to that outreach, is trusting the process long enough for it to start working. I read that book, Three Feet from Gold. I think it was published probably 15 years ago. And it's like people will stop digging and they're like literally three feet from gold. It's kind of the same concept with the outreach.

Shannon Mattern (54:27.626)

And, you know, the first four people may not respond to you, but the fifth one will and that becomes a ten thousand dollar project. So you just never know. Sorry, my cat has decided to join us. and the one of the biggest lessons you learn and Shannon, I think also talked about this in that same webinar I mentioned finding your next dream client, I believe is not even when you're busy.

don't take your foot off the marketing gas because as soon as you're not busy, you look up and you're like, whoa, I don't have any projects. What do I do now? And then you start marketing. Well, it's not that it's too late to do that. You just have a gap in income. So what I've tried to do is not let off on the outreach, my in-person networking, which I've become more strategic about because I can't go to every networking event, but doing the things that work and just trusting that the process is going.

is going to lead you somewhere. It's consistency over time.

So good. Adorable cat. Cats welcome. Dogs welcome too. baby. Doorbells welcome. All right. Next question. Sarah, what is your favorite marketing win since joining WDA?

I think it's the little things like before WDA I was like marketing, I don't really understand what that is, I don't do that, I don't get it. And then now I feel like I do. Like I can say I market regularly. And one of the ways that I keep on top of that is, and I actually just downloaded an app for this called Tally, is I keep track of the little.

Shannon Mattern (56:13.432)

outreaches because sometimes I'll get to the end of the week and I'll be like, I barely did any outreach this week. And I'd started writing it down one week and I got to the end of the week and I was like, I did 21 outreaches this week because I wasn't counting the tiny little nuance to like, I just messaged someone that I hadn't talked to in a while. And so now that I've started like with my little tally app, every time I do one thing or sometimes there's things that are really heavy outreaches.

I'll give myself two points for that. And so then I feel really successful. Even if I miss a day, like when I get to the end of the week, I can tally them up and see how many I've done. And that keeps the momentum going and it keeps me feeling successful with the things that I can control, which I can't control what happens from the outreach, but I can control my actions on the outreach. So good, thank you.

Shannon Mattern (57:09.88)

And for me, it's been marketing doesn't always have to be I have X service, do you want to buy it? It can be keeping in touch, it can be sending a resource, can be referring a friend. And one of my favorite things to do is comment and tell people like, when I like their hair, I like their shirt. And so one of my clients are on social. And anytime I see it, I take the time and say like, my gosh, I love your hair.

I love that new project that you did today. And then they often like, my gosh, that's so nice that you reached out. You know what's so funny? I was thinking about you the other day and then like a conversation gets going. So that's been a shift for me is just to, just to keep talking and keeping people in your circle. And it doesn't always have to be the salesy form of marketing that we often think marketing is. Awesome. Thank you.

Yeah, I think I I mentioned it before it becomes my marketing or my projects. really excuse me. I think I'm more like a pipeline instead of like the stop and start stop and start. And it's just knowing I hit a point sometime in the last couple of months where my marketing became more like a system and instead of like a gamble, like I would just throw stuff out there and not have anything happen. I always I know we talk about this phrase.

throwing spaghetti against a wall. And I know we talk about that in WDA, like that is a marketing strategy. But as a planner, that I cannot take that. Like I have to plan everything out. I have to think things through. That's why I have notes I keep looking down at. But if you're consistent, like I said before, with your marketing outreach, it does become like a system. And what I've been able to do, and this is completely up to you how often you want to do outreach. I only do outreach on Monday mornings and Friday mornings.

and it's only between eight to eight thirty in the morning, maybe to nine. So it's 30 minutes to an hour, usually not an hour. So it doesn't take a lot of time. It's just organization. And in NWDA you also get access to Erica developed this really great tracker. It's an outreach tracker. I use that religiously. I track every single outreach, the date, the last date that I reached out, notes. It's exactly what

Shannon Mattern (59:32.848)

salespeople do in the corporate world. They just use a Salesforce CRM or something like that. But systematizing that outreach, that is what's helped me the most. And I mentioned this on the podcast. The biggest challenge to me though has been, well, I'm actually going back to the last question, but bringing in that corporate world stuff into my current business. And there's a reason why it works. So I'm gonna be doing more of that in 2026.

I love it. And I love that you guys love the tracker that makes my heart so happy. It has stickers. It's the stickers, Okay, Sarah, this is our last question. What would you tell someone who is considering joining Web Designer Academy? Yeah, right before I tell that I wanted to share another favorite thing from the program is when Shannon says, as soon as you get a sale, do an

do a little bit of marketing, like do an outreach. I've kept that in mind and that has been so valuable to me because sometimes you get a sale and you're like, oh, now you're just like focused on that and you ignore all of the outreach and all the marketing for like two weeks. I almost like the day that I send an invoice, I'm also like, I'm gonna reach out to one person. So that's been a really handy, handy tip. But for people on the fence, I'll tell you, before I joined WDA and I'm also, I'm in WDA.

I'm in Next Level. also pay for Shannon's private coaching. So I bought all the things. Clearly I love it here. I was, I was friends with someone, Laura Comar, and she's been in the group for years and she had worked with Shannon directly and for Shannon. And she was always talking about how wonderful the Shannon person was in this web designer Academy. And then I was like, okay, sounds, sounds all right. And I started listening to the podcast and we were in some other programs together that had coaching programs that were,

a little harsh. And she's like, oh, I wish it was like Shannon's group. It's like being wrapped in a warm blanket. And like it is. That's what you're looking for. A community where you feel like you're wrapped in a warm blanket of support for with a leader who has. I don't know the highest EQ of anyone I've ever met, like Shannon's level of emotional intelligence. Like I don't feel scared to tell her things that I.

Shannon Mattern (01:02:01.346)

I might be scared to tell other people. Like she's not offended if I bring my fears. She's not taking it personally. She's like here to help. She loves to coach. You can tell that she loves to coach. So it's easy to let go and be like, I'm not bothering her by asking this. She wants me to ask this. Like she means it when she says your questions are a gift. And it's just the most welcoming environment. And the fact that Shannon is so,

able to be vulnerable is like a value and a personality trait and a leader that I look for because then it makes the space safe for me to be vulnerable too. So if you're looking for any of that plus strategies to make you a crap ton of money, come on in. Thank you for sharing. That's amazing.

And I would have to agree with absolutely everything that Sarah said. And there's been no, you know, 20 years doing this and being in the same similar harsh program as Sarah, and having met people in various programs and overlapping, there's never been a group where everyone is so scared so much of

both success and the mind trash and getting you across that line as this program. every single day you feel, and I remember the first day I came, the first call I went to, like I cried and I was like, is this normal that I'm crying? And it was so emotional for me because I felt like everyone cared and it didn't feel I remember

when we had started this call, somebody had said, you you know, I'm not sure if I know anybody in this room or something along those lines. And some of you may know each other. It's like, as soon as you're in this circle, you feel part of this circle immediately. And it's like, it's like a family. And it's so supportive. But it also allows you to do business your way and think about it your way and do all the things that

Shannon Mattern (01:04:25.409)

feels good. It's not about, it's got to be this way. And if you don't do it this way, then you're going to fail. It's all about like, this is what we know works. If you need some help with that, we can help you. But if that's not working for you, let's chat about it. And let's see if we can figure out if you've got mind trash around it, or if it's a tactical problem we can resolve. There's just, there's no end to support or coaching or

ideas. It's, it's just I'm like, Sarah, I WDA next level private coaching with Shannon. And I'm like, ready to sign up for like, the January private coaching with Shannon. So like, I just can't get enough and I can't say enough great things about everyone in this program. Shannon, Erica, everybody. Thank you so much, Amanda. Yes, I would echo all of that. And also,

I've been a part of groups, online groups, women and men too. And what I find is that even with a very pricey, like high price tag on a program, you don't get personalized access or feedback from the actual owner. You do in WDA. Every week we do

A live strategy call and you don't have to be there if you don't want to but I always try to make it because you can submit questions before the call. Shannon will actually address your question live on the call. You can come on camera if you want to and tell her more about it before she gives you coaching right then and there and then she opens up the floor to anybody else who maybe didn't have time to submit a question and then you also get feedback directly from Erica. You're submitting workbooks so it's it's just.

The fact that every woman in the group is a website designer or related, I mean, there's graphic designers, we're all kind of in a creative industry. You get support from a group. There's no competition. There's no cattiness, no drama, no question is dumb. But then you also get access personalized feedback on what your business is and the direction you want to go in from the actual owner. And that to me, at least from what I've discovered, that's very rare.

Shannon Mattern (01:06:49.633)

Thank you so much. Y'all are about to make me cry. Cause I'm like everything that you just like expressed here was like the vision that I had the Eric and I have that like we've, we have like put so much time effort and like our heart and soul and making sure that you've, that you feel that and like to have you say that.

It's just, it means the world. like, how is this my job? This doesn't even feel like work. I'm like the luckiest person in the world to get to serve and support you, week in and week out. So I cannot thank you enough and to see, to hear the shifts that you've made and see the progress and see you like, you know, visioning and then achieving that vision and coming up with a new vision and achieving that vision and just like all of those things. it's truly my honor and my pleasure.

And thank you all. So I'm going to remove the spotlights from our panelists, but I do want to invite you if you're not already in the Web Designer Academy, I would love to invite you to sit in on one of those weekly live coaching calls. Our final one of 2025 is on Tuesday, December 16th at 3 p.m. You can just go to Web Designer Academy dot com forward slash open house, fill out a form telling me a little bit more about your business.

And I'll send you the invitation to attend that. If you're listening to this, after December 16th has passed, we do one of these every Tuesday. So you can still go to webdesigneracademy.com forward slash open house, fill out the form. I'll invite you to the next one and you'll get to meet even more of the people in the room and see what one of those calls, see what one of those calls.

looks like, experience it for yourself and see if coming to work with us is a good fit for you.