#162 – August 2025 Income Report

Shannon Mattern (00:01.678)

Hello everyone and welcome back to the profitable web designer podcast. Today I am joined by my lovely co-host Erica Nash and this is our August 2025 income report. So Erica, welcome back to the show.

Erica Nash (00:18.764)

Thank you. my gosh, August, can't. I can't believe it's time for that already.

Shannon Mattern (00:23.926)

I know. yeah, August was a blur of a month. I don't know. So for those of you who are new to the show, every single month, we record an episode breaking down how much money the Web Designer Academy made, how much it spent, all of the lessons learned along the way. And we do that just because we know that our thoughts about

Erica Nash (00:30.2)

Agreed.

Shannon Mattern (00:53.462)

money and business and growth and pressure and stress and opportunities and all of the things. It's how we think about all of those things that really drive our feelings, our actions, and ultimately our results. And so we like to just share what we're learning here as we are growing our business. So we're not a web design agency, but we are business coaches and mentors for women web designers.

And so even though our business model is quite different, the lessons are always very, very similar. And we hear from y'all that this is your favorite episode of the podcast. And it's my favorite to record. I don't know about you, Erica, but it's my favorite, so.

Erica Nash (01:39.06)

I agree, no, it's fun. And I just wanted to say, we talked about this a little bit, but I've had multiple people tell me that they, in some form or fashion, that they think this episode is scripted. And I just want to say this is like the most unscripted it gets. Like we have no idea where this conversation is going. So it's a surprise.

Shannon Mattern (02:00.522)

Here's the preparation that happens for this. About an hour before we start, I go, crap, there's an income report episode that we're recording today. Let me go into YNAB. use You Need a Budget to project all of our expenses and plan all of that. And I go to the Reflect tab and I look at what came in last month and what we spent.

Erica Nash (02:05.752)

you

Shannon Mattern (02:25.888)

And then I jot that down on a piece of paper and then I go and I look at my calendar and I'm like, where am I? What day is it? What happened last month? And then I just like jot down a bullet pointed list of things. I used to spend time scripting out an income report, like a big long journal before I brought Erica, before I asked Erica, I'm like, can you help? Because I'm spending too much time on these.

Erica Nash (02:33.654)

you

you

Shannon Mattern (02:55.662)

Can you just interview me and ask me the questions? I would, I would sit down and I would like write out a whole 12 page, which 12 pages is about an hour of content, 12 page income report. And it was my time to like journal and process and you know, whatever. And I loved that. And that was a lot, it took a lot of time and I needed to, I needed to like,

Erica Nash (03:18.807)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (03:23.498)

change some things to get some time back. So it's so unscripted. It's like, I plan for it. So I know the data to tell you all, but yeah, no, there's no, there's no scripts to it. goes where it goes, which is how every podcast episode on the show is.

Erica Nash (03:28.29)

you

Erica Nash (03:32.024)

You

Erica Nash (03:36.632)

you

Erica Nash (03:40.938)

Yeah, it's as much of a surprise to us as it is to you.

Shannon Mattern (03:43.854)

Yeah. So, I just remembered what I wanted to follow up with you on from our last episode. I'm just going to note that down on my list of important things to discuss. So, yeah, let's go ahead and dive in. I'm going to hand it over to you to ask me all of the questions.

Erica Nash (03:57.112)

Okay.

Erica Nash (04:06.388)

Amazing. So our first question, like always, is what was the total inflow for August of 2025 and where did it come from?

Shannon Mattern (04:14.701)

Yeah. So the inflow in August of 2025 was $34,485.38. That came from Web Designer Academy student payment plans, next level mastermind student payment plans, renewals into the Web Designer Academy. So people joining us for a second year. It came from, I got two new private coaching clients in August.

Erica Nash (04:44.344)

you

Shannon Mattern (04:45.041)

Like talk about when you know something's right, like the people just like arrive. like one of them was like no discovery call needed. She just like messaged me. It was like, Hey, can I have one of those spots? And I'm like, would you like to set up a call? She's like, no, you can just send me the contract. And I'm like, cool. Like, you know, you're onto something. and those private coaching engagements have been.

Erica Nash (04:53.496)

you

Erica Nash (05:02.977)

you

Shannon Mattern (05:15.501)

Ugh, they're like so, so fun. Then we had a new web designer academy student join in August. What else? Oh, I did a flash sale for, I did like a little, I tested a little back to school, 50 % off flash sale because we...

on our new website, we have a page of like all of the courses that we've always had, but we're never like very well organized. and I was like, let's do test out a little fun back to school promo for all of our self study courses. we sold a handful of web designer Academy self study, courses during that sale. So all of those little different things added up to 34.

$1,485.38? Yeah.

Erica Nash (06:11.444)

Amazing. So what was the total outflow and where did that money go?

Shannon Mattern (06:17.549)

Yeah, the total outflow was $23,747.30. Around 10,000 of that every single month is payroll. and I's brilliant brains. get paid from that for all that we do to contribute to running this company. And then about 2,000 every month is all of the tools and

you know, things that we use to run the business, all of the software, all of the tech, same spiel as every month, podcast producer, graphic design, conversion rate optimization, all of those things. But the things that were not normal in August were I had to buy a new laptop. Oh my goodness. My trusty old MacBook Pro from 2020, I think it was a 2019, but I bought it refurbished.

2020 just started dropping internet, started just randomly restarting. And I diagnosed the issue and it was not going to, it was just dying. It was overheating, the hardware was failing, so I had to buy a new laptop and I didn't want to, but I was like, why would I even not give myself?

everything I need, like I cannot run this business without a computer. Like the fact that I even like hesitated for a second and thought about like trying to make my old laptop a limpet long was like, that's ridiculous. Just get yourself the tool that you need to run the business. And so I did that. I also spent forth, I,

Erica Nash (07:49.472)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (08:12.575)

spent $4,000 to pay down my line of credit. So I talked last, in my July income report about how when I take on private coaching clients, the deal that I made was that for the first three, I'll split them 50-50 between paying myself more to get back up to what I used to pay myself.

and paying down my line of credit. So I was able to send $4,000 to my line of credit and paid myself an extra 4,000 on top of my paycheck. So I was happy with that. Floyd was very happy with that. And that is, I think that's everything. So.

Erica Nash (09:00.842)

I love it.

Shannon Mattern (09:01.677)

Yeah, I was just like, Oh my gosh, that little $240 that I felt like was not enough for the first one has kind of like opened up the floodgate. So if you don't know what I'm talking about, you can go listen to, I don't know if it was June or July. It was one of the past two where I was just like, I made this deal to move the money in a certain way. And then when I got the first piece of money, it felt like insignificant and not enough. And that's when I realized like, Oh, I'm trying to like,

wait for a windfall or create windfalls. And I had to stop doing that and look at everything as like every little bit is important and counts. So.

Erica Nash (09:42.984)

every little bit is in more than counts. Yeah, I totally agree. I think that's such a good way to think about it. And like, I don't know, I just, it's so interesting that it's like almost compounded in a way. Like, yeah, I love that.

Shannon Mattern (09:59.342)

So you last month confessed that you, cause we talked about like, oh, there are people that are like, are just like, oh, I'm going to like hold onto this and hoard this and not, you know, pay myself or whatever, which is what I was doing. Like I was still paying myself my paycheck, but like I had all these conditions about like how it had to look for me to pay myself the owner draw above and beyond.

Erica Nash (10:01.932)

Thanks.

Shannon Mattern (10:26.859)

the paycheck and that it had to like meet these certain criteria. And like, it had to be like perfect for me to decide to just do that. When in fact, that's what was causing me to never be able to do it. was all of the conditions that I placed on it. And then you were like, confession. I might be one of those people that don't pay myself. And you snuck it in like right at the end of the episode. So we didn't have time to talk about it.

But then you mentioned to me that maybe you did something about that. So I'm super curious.

Erica Nash (10:58.434)

Yeah, I did pay myself. It took me a couple of weeks though. I don't know why, but I was like, it was on my mind and it was something that I kept meaning to do. And there was just something about like the physical act of doing it that was like a little more challenging than I thought. It wasn't a huge amount, but it wasn't a super tiny amount either. It was enough that I was like, okay, like this just needs to happen.

So yeah, so I did pay myself probably halfway-ish through the month. And kind of like you, I was like, well, I have the privilege of being able to live off of my salary from Web Designer Academy. And so I just have to say that first, that it's not like I was not paying myself at all in terms of like...

you know what mean, income. But any money that I was making from the business, I was squirreling away because I have an investment that for one is a year long investment. So I don't know why feel like I need to cover it all now, but for whatever reason I do. And so I was just kind of squirreling away to like make sure that I had enough for that out of a sense of fear that I'm like, might not have enough, right? That's like where it comes from. So I did pay myself and

It did not all fall apart. I'm still here. My business is still running. It's fine.

Shannon Mattern (12:30.593)

Ha ha ha ha!

Shannon Mattern (12:35.649)

So you keep, you were keeping it aside because the concern like I might not have enough to meet this obligation that I committed to. Yeah. Okay. So that's, that's, that's super interesting. So that's like, just like a trust, trusting yourself or trusting that like more is on the way. I cert like that trust the decision that you made like with

Erica Nash (12:46.444)

Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (13:05.747)

when you made the decision, you made the decision knowing that it would work out and that all you needed to do was do it.

Erica Nash (13:14.72)

Hoping I think would be the better word because yeah knowing okay, so like I have OCD so like certainty it's like What is certainty right like I would love certainty I chase certainty and that's the thing that like I struggle with the most and so that I think is really at core of all of it and so it's like if I can see the dollar amount in my account there is certainty that that will get paid and So that's where that comes from literal certainty

Shannon Mattern (13:22.335)

Okay.

Shannon Mattern (13:28.397)

Sure.

Shannon Mattern (13:34.429)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (13:41.416)

literal certainty.

Erica Nash (13:44.792)

But also, like it's a whole thing, right? I went down the chat GPT rabbit hole. So Chatty and I worked it out and I put all my stuff in there and I gave it all of my numbers and my percentages, because I do the profit first method. I gave it all of my percentages and I was putting 45 % into this one account to make sure that it was being covered. And it was like...

Shannon Mattern (13:52.333)

You

Shannon Mattern (14:00.173)

you

Erica Nash (14:13.632)

Why are you doing that? Stop doing that. So we worked out some different percentages and this is my first week actually with those new percentages, like fully like, you know, locked in. So we'll see how that works out. But like it was telling me basically that like you have enough to like cover, you know, X amount of months. Like now just put a little in there.

And then like it was basically talking about like treating it like rent, like that one expense. It's like rent, just like take it off the top and then the rest is whatever. So we'll see how it works out. for now, thank you.

Shannon Mattern (14:53.852)

of you for taking the first step to pay yourself and that like you can trust or that that like you just despite the feelings of whatever fear worry anxiety that you took the action trusted yourself and then like it did not fall apart you know but we don't know if it's we don't know like

Erica Nash (15:19.704)

It didn't.

Yeah, that's the scariest part.

Shannon Mattern (15:24.254)

if it's going to work out or not. But guess what? We can always fix it. That's kind of the thing. It's like, whatever happened, that's kind of where I have to tell myself, like, no matter what happens, I will figure it out. And I'm like, my gosh, I think about this. I have been through so many worst things in this business. Like so many worse things where like, I'm like, I think the plane is going to crash.

Erica Nash (15:30.423)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (15:42.936)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (15:51.565)

And then I think like, I'm like, how powerful like, are we that like we can, I don't know. So I like, it kind of strengthens my belief in myself that I'm like, oh, even when it has gotten bad, I figured it out. So I get to lean on that every time. Um, and just trust that I'm making the best decisions.

I can with the information that I have. And if I get new information, I can make a different decision. That's it.

Erica Nash (16:22.944)

Yeah, yeah, that's literally it. And yeah, so it felt good. It felt good to like pay myself and to see that money in my personal account. was like, I remember this. Yeah. And so, so yeah, so I appreciate the conversation last time and the encouragement to like, just go do it. So I don't think I would have done that without it.

Shannon Mattern (16:35.616)

I know. I was like, my gosh, yay, this looks awesome.

Shannon Mattern (16:50.412)

Listen, if anybody listening also paid yourself, please let us know. Email me is Shannon at Web Designer Academy.com copy Erica, Erica Web Designer Academy.com. Let us know you're paying yourself story. We want to hear them. And if you haven't done it, we challenge you like the smallest, teensiest amount. If you've got money sitting in a business account that you're just like waiting for the perfect day, like

Erica Nash (16:55.447)

Yes.

Erica Nash (17:01.152)

Yes, yes.

Erica Nash (17:16.222)

It's today!

Shannon Mattern (17:17.292)

Just, yeah, it's today. It's today. And I think doing the action will uncover what's really going on. And that's kind of the, for me, was like, I'm waiting for to be able to take care of this in one fell swoop. And that's why I'm chasing, I need to enroll 10 people at once instead of, how about just one at a time? That's fine. That's totally fine.

Erica Nash (17:26.442)

Mm-hmm.

Erica Nash (17:43.128)

Yeah... Yeah...

Yeah.

And like, I don't know, like for me, I mean, it was, like I said, it's about chasing certainty and just, and I, you know, I touched on it last time. That's the thing that I'm working through, right? Is that like, there is no real certainty, period. And so it's just, you know, one of those things that it's going to be, you know, we talk about like new levels, same devils often in our communities.

Shannon Mattern (18:00.3)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (18:03.978)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (18:16.95)

Mm-hmm.

Erica Nash (18:19.074)

And I think it's just gonna be one of those things, like anytime, you know, I'm experiencing something different or new or big or scary, that is going to come up. So it's nice to know that I can lean on you and the Next Level community, our Web Designer Academy students, to be able to, you know, like remind me, cause you know, forget. And so it's just important, like if you don't have somebody

Shannon Mattern (18:45.558)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (18:48.866)

to remind you, like, how do you do it? How do you get through it? I don't, I truly don't know.

Shannon Mattern (18:54.39)

Yeah.

I think the theme of chasing certainty, I see it come up a lot in, I was just having this conversation with our brand newest Web Designer Academy student when she was making the decision to join us. And where it was coming up for her was like picking the right business model.

you know, for all of the different ways people choose to run their web design business. Is it projects? it VIP days? Is it a product tie service? it, you know, ongoing retainer services? Like there's so many different business models. So, and then there's also like, do I niche? Do I not niche? If I niche, which niche? Like, and all of these decisions feeling like, okay, I need to make the right ones.

And if I don't make the right like, or the thought process is like, if I pick the right business model or the right niche, then I will attract clients to me and this business will be a success. So now I have to spend time figuring out and researching what the right ones are building the right thing. And then like, trying to like bring the clients in and

that needing that certainty of knowing that you're picking the right thing or on the flip side, like I need to make sure I'm picking the right marketing strategy. The one that I know is right. The one that I know will work so that I can make sure that I'll get clients. It's like, sounds so innocuous and normal. Like, of course you would want to pick the right business model and the right niche and the right marketing strategy. Like, but that's what's keeping people hustling and stuff.

Erica Nash (20:49.942)

yeah.

Shannon Mattern (20:50.956)

And that's the, that's the thing that it's like, you don't have certainty before you start and you don't even create certainty along the way necessarily. You just have to decide what feels right and aligned with you and who you are and what your life looks like and your values. Go out there and try some things.

fail spectacularly at some things without making it mean that you did it wrong, you're bad, you're not good enough. Take the lessons from that and try the next thing. And that's what people, that's what they think if that's what's happening, they're doing it wrong. But if you're doing that over and over on your own and you don't have someone helping you see the lessons or the clues or the

Erica Nash (21:22.133)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (21:48.629)

You know, learnings from that, that's when it is really hard and you just keep doing the same thing over and over. Well, that business model didn't work. Let me choose another one. Do the same thing, same result. that didn't work. Let me choose another one. and yeah, that's what I was so glad when she said yes to us, cause I'm like, Ooh, I see exactly what's going on here. Please let me help you with that.

Erica Nash (22:10.988)

Yeah, yeah, I love that she did that. And I think anytime you make a decision like that and you move forward in the uncertainty, you expand your capacity for experiencing uncertainty and allow yourself to to like be okay, whenever you're like, I don't know what's gonna happen next. Like maybe you have a few clues, maybe, you know, like we can look at data all day long. But who knows like,

Shannon Mattern (22:25.334)

So good.

Erica Nash (22:41.004)

you know, people bet on like sports teams and those get blown out of the water all the time, right? And so like we, we will never know, but when we're willing to like make a few pancakes and like try some things out the very first time, like we just expand so much in our capacity for uncertainty, for risk, for failure. and I think that's just so key to being able to, to move forward.

Shannon Mattern (23:08.5)

Yeah, we talk about in our marketing momentum program, passionate detachment, just like being willing to do the thing without being attached to the outcome, but you're passionate about it because you do care. Like I care enough to do the thing. I care enough to put my best effort in. I care enough to, to, take some risk.

And also I'm, I'm able to detach myself from the outcome and not make that outcome, put so much pressure on it or make it mean something about me. And we were talking about, I was just talking about this, on our 7 a.m. Call on Tuesdays. We have two coaching calls that we do every Tuesday, 7 a.m. for our people who are, like in the UK or sometimes our early risers in the U S, come to that call.

And we were just talking about like throwing spaghetti is the strategy. Throwing spaghetti and seeing what sticks is the strategy. Cause people think that like, I'm, I just feels like I'm throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks and they are like, well, that feels like the wrong thing to do. It's like, no, actually that's the thing to do. That is the strategy. And, we want some certainty that like,

I picked the right brand of spaghetti. I boiled it for the exact right time. And if I follow all the appropriate steps and I throw it at the wall, every single piece will stick. And like, that's not how this works. And yes, we have frameworks. Yes, we have strategies. We have all of these things to like, give you set you up for more things sticking. But at the end of the day, every single person that comes through our program takes

Erica Nash (24:41.624)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (24:56.286)

what works for them and they adapt things and things evolve and they share their evolutions with other people and everybody is like taking it and making it work for them, which is really cool too. So yeah.

Erica Nash (25:11.542)

Yeah, I love, I love thinking about throwing spaghetti at the wall is the strategy. Like that's, that's exactly it. Like you never know where your next client is going to come from. So why not try a few things, see what feels good. Yeah. Yeah. Literally don't judge them and, don't

Shannon Mattern (25:25.654)

Yeah.

Be open to all of it. Turn over all the rocks. See what's under them. Don't judge the rocks.

Erica Nash (25:38.392)

like feel bad about yourself if you pick up a rock and it's like covered in ants or if you drop it on your toe or whatever because like things are gonna happen and it'll be fine. Yeah, we're still here. Yeah. So let's talk about some of the important things that happened in August.

Shannon Mattern (25:43.616)

Right? Yeah. So good. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (25:54.869)

Yeah. So I booked two new private coaching clients and that was great. Like, okay, so it's a blend of like really good business things and really hard life things. you know, and that's just, that's just like, like, that's just life, right? So at the end of July,

my grandmother, we moved her into a memory care facility because it was because she was living with my mom. was becoming very clear that she was not able to. It was not safe for any of us to continue to care for her the way that we were fortunately able to up until this last month. So the decision was made to move her into a memory care facility and it's about 40 minutes away from my house.

And one of the things that we all wanted to make sure of was that like, she got a visit from someone in the family every single day while she was there. So we all like, divided up and, you know, I was able to go visit her. I was calling at grandma's house because at first she was just like sad that she didn't live with my mom anymore.

And I was like, my gosh, I'm so glad you don't live there anymore. I love getting to visit you at grandma's house, you know? And so we just got to have that special time together and she passed away just a few days ago. And so in August, I was really able to like, because of this company, because of this business, I was able to go spend a lot of time with her.

in the last month of her life in a really hard time for her where she was not in a familiar environment when you know she was declining and the dementia was progressing and so it's not about the money. I know this is an income report but it's like I do we like I'm an entrepreneur a solopreneur I own my own business because I want the freedom

Shannon Mattern (28:07.884)

to be there for my family. And I was telling Erica before we started this, when my grandfather passed away back in 2016, I was still employed. I still had a day job and I was running my business on the side and I didn't have the luxury of going to spend all that time with him in his final weeks of his life because I couldn't take the time off work.

to do that. like, though, that's why I'm like, even in the toughest times of this business where I'm like, I don't know if we're gonna like make the money we need to make the it's like, who cares? Like, you know, who cares, because I got to go do that. And at the end of the day, it all works out, it always does. And, you know, it's

Erica Nash (28:55.597)

Bye.

Shannon Mattern (29:07.626)

the money does allow us to create freedom, flexibility, like all of those things. And I don't want to discount it. And I'm so grateful for every dollar that comes in the door. And it's because of that. It's not like everything else pales in comparison to being able to just go do those things. And so,

That was like the life stuff that was happening alongside of I enrolled two new coaching clients. We had a really cool event for the Web Designer Academy. We enrolled new students. I did a lot of coaching, a lot of support. I worked on a whole new training that we just had last week. So there are so many things going on.

like alongside of like that. And yes, I know I like I 1000 % of like I've been working too much and not having like enough downtime. And that is definitely something I'll be talking about in September income report and what's coming next. But at the same time, I'm just like,

I don't know how, like, how do I do all of this and also just like get to be there in like someone's final days, weeks, months? Like it's a gift. So yeah, that was kind of like the, the bit, the one big thing that happened in August was just that life stuff.

Erica Nash (30:53.962)

Yeah, yeah, such a gift to be able to be able to be there. And, you know, it brings to mind, like we talk often about the reason that our program is 12 months is because life happens along those 12 months. And so it's not so much. I mean, yes, it is teaching the marketing strategies. It is teaching like the strategies, like our pricing strategies and stuff like that.

But I think even more so, it's about learning how to navigate life while you're doing business and building something that allows you to experience whatever ups and downs life might bring. so it is, at the end of the day, it really is not about the money. It really is about the ability to do whatever you gotta do. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (31:44.382)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And yeah, like we go through different seasons and we all handle different seasons differently, right? So like I'm the kind of person that like when I feel sad, I would rather distract myself with work. I know people who when they're dealing with difficult times, they need to like disconnect and rest and whatever. And, you know, like

we're here for all of that in terms of like supporting people through challenging times in their business. The answer could look like, okay, well, how do we help you communicate with clients and disconnect and take the time you need? know, like, so it's about so much more than just how do I book a client at higher prices?

Like we do that. We love to do that. We'll teach you how to do that all day. But the reason we teach you that is so that you have full autonomy and freedom on the back end to attend to your life and the things that are important to you. And, yeah. So I'm just like proud of that.

Erica Nash (32:59.126)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's not just about charging higher prices, right? It's also about like the boundaries that come with like those projects. And we teach a lot about that. And cause I'm sure, you know, people are thinking about, you know, at least I've heard people talk about experiences of like, you know, being at hospitals and like answering emails and like things like that. And...

Shannon Mattern (33:08.48)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (33:25.386)

when your packages are built a certain way with boundaries built in. One, you feel safe enough to be like, hey, this thing happened and I'm going to be offline for a little while. Most of the time clients are like, go do what you need to do. Like, this is fine. But two, that there are boundaries and systems and processes in place to support needing to take space or delegate or.

Shannon Mattern (33:52.65)

Yeah. So that you don't even have to think twice about it. You don't have to be like, but you know, which, yeah. So that was a big thing that happened in August. The other things that I jotted down, are we had, Rihaz Amani come into our, web designer Academy program and do a neuro linguistic programming session.

Erica Nash (33:55.319)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (34:21.963)

for us, I was the guinea pig for that. And she led me through a NLP session. And it was really, really interesting. And she's gonna come onto the podcast to talk about that and debrief. We haven't had a chance to debrief because I did give myself the gift last week before my grandmother passed, but.

as the, as things were like going that direction and, know, I had a lot of other things on my plate. gave myself the gift of rescheduling a couple of podcast interviews. And normally I love to, I don't like to reschedule things even when I'm like, it's feeling my schedule is feeling tight because I'm the kind of person I'm like, well, let's just do them.

Erica Nash (35:05.176)

Amazing.

Shannon Mattern (35:19.851)

and then I won't have to like do them later. But this time I was like, I could really use the space. And so, yeah, I was really proud of myself because I wasn't, I gave no reason why I was just like, hey, I need to reschedule our interview for today. Here are some times when I'm available next. Like, hey, really looking forward to this. I need to reschedule here are some times.

And normally I would have felt like I would have to like justify why I'm rescheduling. But I was just like, I actually have full autonomy to do whatever I want with my time at any time. And I don't need to justify or give a reason for why I simply need to move this. Cause I don't have the capacity to have the kind of conversation that I would like to have. And so I did.

So anyway, long, that's a long way around. Like Rihal's going to be back on the podcast in a few weeks to talk about this, but she led me through this session about like being weird at sales, which we've talked about on earlier podcast episodes. We talked about how, like when I get in a one-on-one sales situation, I get weird. We talked through, we talked through why that is. So.

Erica Nash (36:18.892)

I love it.

Erica Nash (36:42.136)

You

Shannon Mattern (36:46.795)

I'm curious about like your impression of that experience.

Erica Nash (36:55.705)

of Rihaz experience, I wasn't able to watch it. I wasn't there. No, yeah.

Shannon Mattern (36:57.439)

Mm-hmm.

my gosh, you weren't there. totally forgot. You weren't there. So you didn't get to experience this. Okay, so I'm going to tell you about it because then I'm curious to get your thoughts on this other thing that happened recently. So she was like, what is something that you would like to improve upon? And I was like, well, I feel awkward in one-on-one sales situations. And so she led me

Erica Nash (37:07.872)

I didn't get to experience it. Please tell me.

Erica Nash (37:16.204)

Okay.

Shannon Mattern (37:30.763)

through this process of exploration where she's basically like, tell me about a time when you have been in an unpleasant like sales situation. And I just started rattling off like, this time and this time and this time and this time. And the one that really stuck out was we were on vacation in the Dominican Republic and somehow got roped into one of those like.

timeshare presentation thingies and the guy, his name was Ramon. he would not let us leave. Like we were, had been like put on a golf cart, driven to this other property. Like, you know, in, took a tour of the, resort and then we're in the room and like my husband and I were both like, yeah, we don't want to do this. And like, they just kept us there.

Erica Nash (38:01.76)

No.

Shannon Mattern (38:30.027)

and kept going and going, and we're like trying to leave. And then it was like, you know, and it was just like the worst high pressure sales situation. And like, Rihah helped me realize that like, because I didn't ever want to make anybody on the other side of the zoom screen from me feel that way. That not only that I like way over corrected to be like,

maybe if you want to maybe sort of kind of like, but you don't have to like, and so what the shift was at the end, and she helps me like visualize some things and I'm super curious to talk to her about like what this was. She was like, but what if that could feel as easy as like she was like, what's something that you love doing that like, you don't even think twice. I'm like, obviously coaching like

Erica Nash (39:04.663)

you

Shannon Mattern (39:28.421)

even on our live strategy calls or even a one-on-one experience, I feel like no type of way about that at all. I'm excited. can't like, I can't wait for the person on the other side of that coaching experience. So like, want them to see themselves the way I see them, which is like without all of the things that hold them back. And like, I see all of their brilliance that they.

Erica Nash (39:47.66)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (39:56.3)

don't see or dismiss or diminish, diminish. And she was like, oh, okay, well, what if you can attach that to your sales experience? And I was, and think of it that way where like your only job is to help someone see their brilliance and make the decision. I was like, ah, that feels so much better. So meanwhile, I have all this life stuff going on.

Erica Nash (40:09.464)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (40:25.267)

I'm also like working on this new presentation. And then we have the opportunity last week to have a sales call with someone. I literally like, if you're listening, this person, I'm like, you're like, you're going to be like, this was me. I know it was me. I like reached my mental capacity for like even processing words. Like I had to take a minute. I felt like.

Erica Nash (40:43.512)

Thank

Shannon Mattern (40:55.517)

I felt, I felt prepared yet. It was just a weird, it was like my first sales call experience after that NLP session. I went into it very excited, but also like feeling unprepared, feeling very tired. And I was like looking at this woman being like, she's so freaking incredible. And like, she doesn't even realize how incredible she is.

And I'm like asking questions, but there's no real process to it. And I just felt so adrift and lost, which afterwards I talked to you, but I was like, okay, well, that's one step closer to where I want to be because I did not feel like I was wanting to not put so much pressure on her that I was like talking her out of working with us or not believing that she wanted to work with us and not believing that she wanted to be there. So that was like one click closer.

But then it was just like, I almost felt like I spent the whole time just telling her how awesome she was versus like the next step is like, and here's how I can help you overcome the things that are standing in your way because you are like, so it was just like, okay, I iterated my way like closer. And what's fascinating to me is like, it's so different selling this coaching than it is selling like.

Erica Nash (41:54.081)

Bye.

Shannon Mattern (42:22.015)

web design projects with our package matrix. I'm like, can I just have a package matrix to just solve this problem for me? Like it doesn't work for the Web Designer Academy the same way that it works for our students, which just cracks me up, which I'm like, it probably does. I just don't see it. But anyway, that's my spiel on what happened on that session. And so I'm like seeing progress.

Erica Nash (42:39.767)

you

Erica Nash (42:48.832)

Yeah, I love that. kind of reminds me of, so we, Shannon's biz bestie and coach is Alicia St. Germain and she does immunity to change. And it reminds me of in the mapping process, the continuum, what is it called? The continuum of progress. That's what that reminds me of is like that very first stage.

Shannon Mattern (43:12.031)

The Continuum of Progress.

Mm-hmm.

Erica Nash (43:18.588)

of like being able to recognize like, I am making progress. Like even though it maybe isn't exactly where you want to be, that's kind of what that reminds me of. So I wonder how, I just, I don't know. I wonder how closely related those like modalities for lack of a better word might be. That's just really interesting. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (43:40.01)

Yeah, I love that. I love that concept, the continuum of progress. It's like, what does full success look like? Full success would look like me having a normal sales conversation without being weird about it. Whether the person says yes or no, like I feel confident. know exactly what to say. I feel an integrity and alignment with what I'm saying. And I don't feel like there's pressure.

Erica Nash (43:50.04)

You

Shannon Mattern (44:08.541)

all of those things, I think that would be full success is that I feel like I'm myself, which is how I feel in every single other interaction that I have. And so it's interesting that I don't feel like myself in those environments. And so like, that would be full success for me. Not that I don't have to prepare, not that I don't have to, you know, whatever, but that I feel like myself.

Erica Nash (44:24.12)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (44:38.493)

That would be full success. think a step back is having a couple like being willing to like

have it feel weird a few times, but know that I feel aligned. I feel aligned with what I'm saying, how I'm approaching it, even if I still don't quite feel like myself yet. And I think I've already just kind of experienced the first noticeable step forward is I don't feel like the people on the other side don't want to be there. I'm like, where I'm questioning, why are you here?

Erica Nash (45:10.016)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (45:14.185)

You're so amazing. I don't even understand how we could help you. That was like the first thing that I'm thinking. And then I'm like, you're so amazing. Let me just tell you how amazing you are, but let me forget to tell you exactly how we can help you. Now I get to put together, you're so amazing. And here's how we can help you.

Erica Nash (45:26.016)

Yeah.

Yes, both are true. Do you feel, I know like we had like kind of a conversation after that about sort of what you could do next. And so do you feel a little bit closer to that middle step?

Shannon Mattern (45:38.603)

Yes.

Shannon Mattern (45:46.443)

I do. I feel very aligned with what I'm going to try and test next. And also, like I said, I just, you know, I've, I was like literally at mental capacity last week. And so after we talked about that, I'm like, okay, I need to let my brain rest. And then I get to dig into this and

Erica Nash (46:01.368)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (46:15.284)

combine those two things that we talked about. So yes, I feel 1000 % excited to roll that in. And I think that that really has been the piece for what you shared with me in terms of like, how do I honor the person's brilliance and also show them how we can help them? Like it's...

It's probably so obvious to everyone but me, but that's how this works. And that's normal. I clearly have a big blind spot here for whatever reason. And I need other people to be a mirror for me and show me what that is. And that's what coaching is all about, where it's like.

Erica Nash (47:05.752)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (47:08.476)

something that once I see it, it'll be like, that was so obvious. Why didn't I see it? But that's the nature of this work, right? Our subconscious doesn't want us to see the thing because if we see the thing, then we're going to change the thing. And it feels like that change is scary. So it's going to obscure and obfuscate and like, you know, try to make you not see. And so that's what I do with our like private coaching clients. And then they're like,

Erica Nash (47:19.277)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (47:26.754)

danger.

Erica Nash (47:32.257)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (47:37.47)

Yeah, that's so obvious now that you say it. I'm like, yeah, but you needed to be in this space to, to experience that. Like,

Erica Nash (47:43.159)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (47:48.022)

Yeah, and like open and willing to see it and accept that, right?

Shannon Mattern (47:53.149)

Yeah, I'm like, please show me all my stuff. I want to see it. I don't like to suffer. Yes.

Erica Nash (47:56.696)

Yeah, right. Make my suffering shorter, please. And I totally agree. don't think sales can be really challenging if you, like, regardless, you bring all your own stuff to it. It's complex because they're bringing all their own stuff to it. And so I think there are parts and pieces of it that really are not obvious. And I think one of the most uncomfortable parts

Shannon Mattern (48:22.794)

Mm-hmm.

Erica Nash (48:26.164)

about sales and this is something that I have struggled with. I feel better about it now, but the idea, the idea and like this is even going to sound gross to say it like, you know, I'm going to say it because this is what the industry term would be. But like, you know, that like creating that agitation and like agitating that pain and like bringing to surface the problem or whatever. I'm like, that's manipulative. I don't like that. But here's the thing, right? The thing is,

that we can go about it in a way that doesn't agitate the pain, but just shines a light on what already exists and allows us to articulate that in a way that allows them to be like, she knows exactly what she's talking about, which means she can help me. If she knows this problem that well, she can help me. And so I think that that's something that a lot of people

Shannon Mattern (49:17.107)

Yes.

Erica Nash (49:24.214)

really struggle with in sales. And I think a lot of, at least the web designer academy student population, I think everyone in there is in some form or fashion, like a nurturer or like, you know, like the helper and like they really, really deeply care about the person on the other side and their wellbeing. And in an attempt to make sure that they're very well taken care of, stay far away from like shining a light on

the challenges that might exist. And that can be, like that can definitely get in the way of having that sales conversation.

Shannon Mattern (50:03.508)

You just said something that really made me think of, I am really against agitation of people's pain as well. I think it's a manipulative sales tactic that doesn't feel good. And I think that what I have been missing is that it's not about agitating someone's pain. It's about

Erica Nash (50:15.244)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (50:33.482)

A, implicitly, if they're on the other side of the Zoom screen with me, they are in some kind of pain. They wouldn't be there if they weren't experiencing some kind of challenge or pain, whether that's I want to reach this goal and I'm not there and the pain or the challenge is I need the path there or they're experiencing like overworking, undercharging, over-delivering, not...

Erica Nash (50:41.517)

Yes.

Shannon Mattern (51:02.95)

knowing where to get clients, they're already in pain when they come to some type of pain challenge, whatever. It's not my job to agitate it. I don't even think it's my job to shine a light on it. I think it's my job to like understand it deeply and empathize with it and offer a solution. And I think that that's kind of the piece where it's like,

Erica Nash (51:06.008)

Mm-hmm.

Erica Nash (51:19.169)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (51:26.32)

under like that's that part where you're like, she really gets it because I really do get it. Like, and I think that that's more feels more aligned to me than like, let me remind you of all of the pain that you're in so that I can sell you something that will solve it. It's more like, let me make sure I deeply understand your challenges so that if this is the right thing for you,

Erica Nash (51:32.972)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (51:41.89)

Right.

Shannon Mattern (51:55.837)

then I can help you make sure it's the right thing for you. And I think that that's the piece that's been like, that's made me hands off to the, hands off, not even hands off. I still want to understand where people are struggling, but also where it has felt like weird moving into like,

Erica Nash (51:59.168)

Yeah. Yeah, no, that's so good.

Shannon Mattern (52:23.954)

a sales conversation from let's talk about where you're struggling, like, then transitioning that into like, here's the solution. So the interesting thing about all of this though, is I think about, just, the other important thing that happened in August is that I had the realization, which this is like interesting because we've been teaching this for

Over five years now, the package matrix came on the scene in at least 2018 and the web designer Academy. So we've been teaching this for over seven years. I had the realization that the package matrix is the, our differentiator at the web designer Academy. So you and I went through this whole rebranding process. We launched our new website in, July and part of our like brand strategy process was like,

Well, what makes the web designer Academy, the web designer Academy, like what makes it unique? What makes it different? What's our, you know, what's our thing, you know, and we have so many things, right? We have, our community, we have our core values. We work with women. all about profitable, sustainable, web design businesses. We have all of these things that make us what we are in unique. And then like.

I was thinking about, did all the work with the brand and the customer journey and the emails. And that was like really like the middle of funnel experience, right? Like once people find us and that's what they're experiencing. But then, you know, what actually are we selling? You know, and yes, we're selling business coaching, mentorship, community support, all of that, but like,

The vehicle for that is our package matrix.

Erica Nash (54:25.942)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (54:27.818)

And that was like the, the realization that I had in, in working with a new way to like do our, do our sales presentations are the one to many stuff. I'm golden with that one to one. That's where I got to work, work on it. But yeah, so I was working on this new presentation and it was like the, framework that I was using was like,

up with a core premise, like what's the through line of everything you do? And I'm like, it's a package matrix and how it really is the thing that underlies everything we do. It's what makes everything I'm talking about with sales in your web design business, like pretty much non-existent in terms of like, um,

Erica Nash (55:19.704)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (55:23.014)

in terms of how we teach sales in the web designer academy bypasses all of the challenges I'm talking about in selling the web designer academy, which I don't, irony is not the right term, but the interesting thing is, is that the reason the package matrix exists and works so well is because it allowed me to avoid all of these things that are really challenging for me in this one-on-one sales process. Package matrix solves that for service.

Erica Nash (55:51.544)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (55:52.415)

service providers. And so just even having the realization that it's your proposal is everything from how you charge higher prices, how you make the sales process feel so much easier, how you like set sustainable boundaries with your clients, how you even run projects all stems from this one core

tool that we teach inside of the Web Designer Academy. That was like a big, huge breakthrough.

Erica Nash (56:29.42)

That's so exciting.

Shannon Mattern (56:30.396)

that I'm like, you know, when we're talking about our quote unquote competitors or other people who are coaching, mentoring web designers, like the way we teach proposals is different and unique from anybody out there. And it's the reason why all of our students like,

are like, I'm selling more projects at higher prices than I could have ever imagined possible.

Erica Nash (57:01.43)

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And I think it does cover all of those spaces. And like, you know, one of our core values is, you know, aspiration over agitation, because that agitation piece, like neither one of us were like not, not okay with that. And there's even a piece in there that, like, I like to think about, like, instead of shining a light on the challenges, it's like a bid for connection. There is a piece in there.

Shannon Mattern (57:13.949)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (57:27.103)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (57:28.896)

that is that bid for connection that's like, understand your problem so deeply that this is the package that's perfect for you because of, you know, XYZ challenges or XYZ goals or whatever it might be. And so it solves, it solves, I think every single piece of that package matrix solves a very specific problem from sales all the way through project completion and

Like that is, I don't know, I haven't been in another program that like is quite that thorough. So I agree that it is the thing that sets WTA apart.

Shannon Mattern (58:13.204)

So to that end, we're gonna be testing out messaging shifts, right? So like nothing changes except for instead of me saying run a profitable, sustainable web design business, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna be talking about like, you're just one proposal away from a profitable, sustainable web design business or things like that, which is.

what we've been doing all along, but it's like, I've always kept Patrick like tucked away inside of the program. And like, once you come in and you realize package matrix is everything, it's like the foundation of your whole business. And once you build this foundational piece, everything is built on top of that foundation. And to build that foundation, you got to get your money mindset right. And really truly.

believe in your value and all of those things. And then you build that foundation and your business like is run off of that. And so that's really just going to be the test is testing out like a new training I just did on Friday. I did the five secrets of high converting web design proposals. It was so good. It was so, so good. we got such great feedback.

And I'm just going to be testing out doing that training over and over and over and over again, see what happens. and really start talking about like all of the problems and challenges and opportunities when you use our proposal process, sales process, the way we teach, that all like how it works. I'm like,

How can I just adapt this to the web designer Academy at some point, but I'll figure it out. think, you know, I just have to check all of the same boxes in my process that the package matrix checks for our web designers, which is safety, autonomy, psychological safety, autonomy. And I can't remember the third one off the top of my head because capacity is still limited after a, you know,

Erica Nash (01:00:13.408)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (01:00:17.73)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (01:00:32.641)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (01:00:36.562)

after a jam packed August, but those things are important to me. And if I feel like any one of them is off, it's just not gonna work anyway. yeah, so I'm very excited to test out the new messaging around like, you know, it's not the web designer academy that helps you do that, although it is, but it's like, you're just a proposal away from the revenue that you want in your business.

Erica Nash (01:00:41.122)

Mm-hmm.

Erica Nash (01:00:47.106)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (01:01:04.984)

So good. Yeah, that's good. I can't wait. It is so true.

Shannon Mattern (01:01:06.184)

Yeah. And it's so true, right? Like that's the thing where it's just like, you could come in and not change a single thing about your offer, except for how you're presenting it and have an entirely different experience.

Erica Nash (01:01:26.75)

is magical. It feels magical. Good stuff.

Shannon Mattern (01:01:28.904)

Yeah, yeah. So I think that's it for this episode. Any last final thoughts, insights that you want to share before we wrap it up?

Erica Nash (01:01:40.648)

my gosh, so many good nuggets. I think, I think one, if you're listening and you're not paying yourself, go pay yourself. And then two, just thinking about like, what could, if, if your business is not where it's at, where you would be able to take time away for family or for yourself or whatever.

Shannon Mattern (01:01:42.386)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (01:02:07.468)

just kind of considering like what we need to change in order for that to be possible. And then like, you know, if you want support with that, that's what we're here for. So, yeah.

Shannon Mattern (01:02:20.532)

So good. I think that's the perfect place to wrap up this conversation. So thank you all so much for listening. Erica, thank you for being here. And we'll see you all back here next week. Bye, everyone.

Erica Nash (01:02:25.579)

Amazing.

Erica Nash (01:02:30.808)

Yeah, thank you. Bye.