#207 – How Web Designers Can Charge More By Adding Brand Strategy with Sarah Robb

Shannon Mattern (00:01.742)

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Profitable Web Designer podcast. And today I am joined by Sarah Robb, who is the co-author of the Amazon bestseller Rebrand Write, founder of the Brand Strategy Academy, which is an online course that has helped over 400 designers become brand strategy confident. She has over 20 years experience as a brand strategist working for...

companies or developing strategies for companies you've heard of like Pfizer, Ernst & Young, PepsiCo, Oracle, agencies and independently. So Sarah, I am so excited to have you on the profitable web designer. Welcome.

Sarah Robb (00:34.583)

You

Sarah Robb (00:44.609)

Thank you, I'm so fortunate to be here, thanks for inviting me, it's so great to talk to you again.

Shannon Mattern (00:50.956)

Yeah. So I think we met because we were both speaking at Jacob Cass's brand builder summit, which is where I first, you know, met you virtually lightly stalked you online as I do and invited you to speak at the simply profitable designer summit. And then I loved your session in our chat so much. like, I want another hour with Sarah to, just like.

go deeper with you. So can you share more with our listeners about you and what you do?

Sarah Robb (01:26.071)

Yeah, sure. Maybe I could go back to how I got into brand strategy because sometimes it's one of those odd areas where people are like, how did you become a brand strategist anyway? So I didn't have a clue what I wanted to do at uni. Like I just hadn't got a clue. So I went to Japan for three years and taught English and came back and I was doing this social anthropology degree master's thing.

Shannon Mattern (01:31.182)

Let's do it.

Sarah Robb (01:53.218)

I was walking down the halls and there was this ad and it said, ambidextrous brains required. And I was like, that sounds like it's talking to me. And it was a job advert for something called the WPP fellowship. And WPP are one of those huge holding companies. I'm sure you know, have all these agencies and it allowed you to sort of dabble in their world and do a year in one part of their business, a year in another part and a year in another.

So I started in, I did a bit of market research at What's Kantar now, and then I did a year in advertising in San Francisco as a planner. And then I ended up in my sort of happy place, which was Brand Strategy at Landor. So Landor was like, I mean, they all, they all argue that they're the biggest, right? But at the time it was the biggest branding consulting and design firm. and that's sort where I learned my Brand Strategy craft. So I was really lucky to sort of come in that way into Brand Strategy.

because there aren't many brand strategy jobs in those agencies. So that was my way in and I kind of fell in love with being that step closer to the business and business strategy and the goals and helping to set a direction for an organization that really touched not just design, you know, which I learned sort of later, to be honest. think initially I felt brand strategy was this thing that just led to design, actually...

When you do it for a while, you realize it's something that touches the whole business and employees as much as, you know, the marketing team. And I love that ability to set a strategy and help set a direction for a company. So that was sort of my little weird route into it all.

Shannon Mattern (03:34.218)

I love that ambidextrous brains required because that is so applicable to probably every person listening to this podcast. have to use, even if you're a developer, you're using a creative side of your brain and a technical side of your brain and the strategic side of your brain to solve business problems, really.

Sarah Robb (03:39.605)

That's clever.

Shannon Mattern (04:03.977)

Tell me more about, you said brand strategies are happy place. What is it about brand strategy that you love so much that made you even want to like teach it to other people?

Sarah Robb (04:21.653)

I think, you know, part of it is being able to just have really interesting conversations with people. I think that's the fab thing about strategy that isn't going to go away that, you know, there's all this stuff that happens afterwards and execution. But if you're working on strategy, you have to sit down with people and there's a lot of trust involved. So, and I like talking to people. so part of it is sitting down with people, listening to them, learning their business.

problems, talking about insights, talking to leadership and then employees and then customers and really digging into and getting underneath the surface stuff and the generic stuff to find those insights that really lead to a really interesting strategy. it's partly, you know, it requires like a lot of curiosity and listening and analysis, but a lot of people think it's sort of this.

job that, well, I'm a so-and-so, so I couldn't possibly be a strategist. I'm like, well, everyone's doing these skills, know, like web designers are doing, have these skills. Really strategic web designers sit down, they have these serious conversations, they listen to the client, they understand the target audience and the customer. And then you have to sort of weave this very clear, compelling story from it all, right?

Good strategies are not 26 pages long. They're very simple. They're very understandable. And it's about taking all this stuff and really getting it down to the core that can drive decisions afterwards. And I just love that whole journey that you go on with a client and that it is quite a personal one, especially with smaller businesses, but all organizations and how it requires that mix of analytical thinking and creative thinking.

being really rigorous on clarity and getting a clear direction. It's a geek out on it. And it doesn't really matter who it's for. I don't know about you Shannon, but any client, like A to Z of clients, I just love the variety of it all as well. And the fact that you can do, it's a skill that takes you into all sorts of industries. From like literally one month I was working on Viagra and the next month I'd be working on Smirnoff and you'd be like, okay, this is kind of a weird mix of brands.

Sarah Robb (06:44.95)

I love that mix. think that's why a lot of people love the freelance world too, right? That ability to work on so many clients. Yeah, so many, many reasons.

Shannon Mattern (06:54.955)

Yeah. yeah. So like for someone listening, that's like thinking brand strategy is, and I put that in air quotes. This is a podcast. You can't see me do air quotes around brand strategy for, those of you listening, for those of us who have thought brand strategy is, you know, the visual, the visual design, like a font logo, fonts.

colors and how those all work together to evoke certain feelings. I'm imagining that is like one teensy-tinesy sliver of what brand strategy really is. So can you expand on what that is for the person who's like, I just thought brand strategy was the visual look and feel of a site.

Sarah Robb (07:32.191)

Hmm.

Sarah Robb (07:52.118)

Sure.

Shannon Mattern (07:53.325)

Can you dig into that a little bit more?

Sarah Robb (07:56.011)

Yeah, totally. to me that bit, and you know, there's so much jargon, isn't there, in this whole industry, but to me that piece is identity work. you know, and that comes from a strategy and one, but the strategy itself is just some answers to some questions. And there are four, and it doesn't matter what you call these answers, but they're all the best brands in the world answer these questions. And one of them is,

How do we want to look, feel and sound? So you've got to get to some sort of definition of and criteria so you can judge design, right? And judge web design and judge identity and judge colors and judge all those decisions. So you have to answer, how do we want to look, feel and sound with like a set of attributes? But then there are three other questions. One of them is like, what do we do that people value and what do we represent that people want to feel? And that is generally called positioning.

But you'll hear it called promise value proposition, you know, idea. doesn't matter. It's just the answer to the question. What do we do that people value and what do we represent that people want to feel? And then there's the question above that, which is like, well, why do we exist? And that's a really exciting one to answer, you know, to, work through with an organization. You've got to answer what you do and then you ladder up to then why, why are we doing it? And that's really great because it doesn't just influence things like

how you write your about page. It really influences why people come to work every day. And it gives a real sense of employee engagement. And there's all sorts of data around the importance of answering that question and what it does for a business. And then the last one is who are we and how do we do things around here? And this is one that sometimes people have to grow into. They think that brand is about positioning and identity. But if you answer those other two bits of it, like why do we exist and

Who are we and how do we do things? And you've got this whole simple, but really powerful answers to these questions that influence how people act inside the business, how people take decisions, why people come to work every day, as much as how do we want to look, feel and sound and how do we start to execute and brief this brand out to everybody, like graphic designers, web designers, event designers, copywriters, like the whole mix of people. Sonic.

Sarah Robb (10:17.49)

designers, everyone who's in charge of helping to bring the brand to life sensorily through all the senses and through all the applications too.

Shannon Mattern (10:30.015)

I love that. And I was sitting here thinking, I can imagine me at the beginning of my freelance web design career in those first few years where I thought my job was to take orders from my clients, that they already knew exactly what they wanted, how they wanted it done, why they wanted it done that way, that they knew, they knew all of that. And so therefore I'm just here to bring their vision to life.

That's how I operated in the very early stages of my freelance web design business before I figured out like, actually they don't know what they don't know. They really don't have any rhyme or reason why they want it done this way. It's actually not gonna work if we do it this way. And they have zero plan. But before I kind of like shifted out of that employee mindset that I was operating in,

Sarah Robb (10:59.307)

Mm.

Shannon Mattern (11:26.105)

to really see myself as a strategic, leader for my clients. I can imagine that version of me going, well, who am I to lead a client through this process? So tell me like, tell me more about what you think about that. If, if you were, if you, if I was coming to you saying, but Sarah, I'm just a web designer. Like who am I to even.

bring this up with my client.

Sarah Robb (11:58.39)

Well, I think that is the shift that people start to make, isn't it? From like exactly like you say, from sort of executor, order taker to advisor. And I think people think that is a massive shift, right? That it's like a whole different personality I need to do this. But actually I bet people are doing it anyway, but they're just not packaging and charging for it. Like it's often...

There's often this discovery phrase and I kind of hate the word because it's sort of buried under like, we're going to do this little thing, this discovery thing, but here's the real work, you know? And so people are under charge for basically the things that you're doing as a strategist. You're having those conversations with the client and it's not difficult questions. You just sort of need to know the questions to ask and you don't have to have the answers. This is the other thing.

It's not your business. You just need to know the smart questions to ask to leadership and to customers and to employees. And then the ability to take that information and analyze it. And that sounds daunting, but it's not so daunting. You know, as a designer, you already have that kind creative thinking skills. You're already making these really informed smart decisions about how people interact.

and what they want to experience. And it's the same thinking process of taking all this stuff and saying, well, what is important in this? And now you can obviously use AI to help you also and to get some of the generic stuff out the way so you can really dig into the kind of key insights. But I think people think it's some personality shift and you'd be surprised how much you're already doing, but perhaps

probably not charging enough for or just kind of hiding in this discovery phase. When you ask really sensible questions about personas and who am I designing for? And there's just a little step before that about helping them do a bit of research to understand that person a bit better. And all you need are the questions. You don't have to make it all up yourself. And I think people sort of feel like they need to start with a blank sheet of paper and...

Sarah Robb (14:19.251)

become a strategist. I'm like, just learn from people who've done it and then make it your own. You know, it's not as daunting as it, I think as it can feel just by thinking, well, if you think of it as an identity, like I am a designer and now I'm a strategist, it's not a personality shift. It's just a skills addition. Like you would learn Wix and you'd learn Squarespace. You'd learn, you know, it's just another skill and everyone's perfectly capable of picking up the skill.

Yeah, for sure.

Shannon Mattern (14:50.573)

I think that's so good. one of the things that I have experienced is like, I know my business inside and out. As a business owner, I know what I do. I'm really good at it. I know how I deliver it. But I have so many blind spots because I'm so in it and I'm so close to it. And there are perspectives I just cannot see.

I'm coming at it with like my own lenses through which I see things, my own experiences. And when I work with other people on strategy, it is fascinating the things that I'm like, that was there this whole time and I never saw it. And I just needed someone else's, someone else to ask me a question I've never been asked.

someone else to help me see something in a way that I wasn't seeing it before. And so. Like even creating the space for a business to explore something that like, maybe they've never slowed down to explore. And then, you know, so much more than you think, you know, like as the, as the person on the outside looking in, right. And. You know,

Sarah Robb (15:56.372)

Yeah.

Sarah Robb (16:11.477)

That's so true.

Shannon Mattern (16:19.073)

I wanted to, someone asked me this question. It just came up in our web designer Academy community today. And I would love your perspective on this. They asked like, how do I get my clients to start seeing me as a strategist when for the last, you know, 10, 15 years that I've been working in this, you know, in this space, they see me as the executor. How do I?

get them to, how do I like get them to see me differently? And she's asking like, what do I call myself? How do I describe myself? But how do, if you're making this transition, like how do you start making that transition?

Sarah Robb (17:02.068)

Yeah.

Sarah Robb (17:06.857)

So I think partly we all think people are looking at what we're doing all the time and going, my client's sitting here looking at my website and they're going, you've changed what you said you're doing. I don't believe you're that thing. I don't think that happens first of all, right? I think we all, you know, we live in, our business is everything to us, but like no one's paying that much attention first of all. And it's likely that...

you may not be getting the same client to do the same sort of work because you've done the web design anyway. So the first thing is no one's looking, unfortunately, you know, and, and, and we can, and it's probably not those clients anyway, because you've already done their website for them. So maybe start afresh in your mind, not worrying so much about that, but think about, okay, so what do I call myself? There are different

different word, you know, people call themselves creative strategists, brand strategists, brand strategy and design expert, you know, that it doesn't really matter. I think what matters though is how you approach a new project. Right. So there's a proposals come in the door and your default state might have been to get an old proposal out and write discovery mini phase, you know, $400 or something. And then big design phase. And I think it's about, okay, learning, right.

what does a strategy phase of work look like? very deliberately calling a phase in your project strategy and not hiding it within the design process and having just the breakdown of what you would include and why you're including it, the objectives of the piece of work, what the client's going to get and just being super clear on what it is you're going to do, what they're going to get and what that gives them. And that's all it is really.

I don't think people are going to judge you for doing that. I think you're in a very valid position to say, I've been working for eight years. I've had 50 conversations with clients about their business. And I'm really here to help you move that business forward and to create you a brand that is incredibly valuable. everyone thinks that...

Sarah Robb (19:16.2)

businesses are these tangible things, but like 80 % of the value of all businesses are intangible things, intangible, of which brand is one of them. So, you know, it's, you know, that's what you're an expert in brand rather than web design. I'm a brand strategist who can drive into copy design wherever you want to go, you know, but you, think it's just about how you start your next project.

and just being equipped with knowing how to structure a process to do brand strategy. And that will be my only warning sign. None of it's about personality or ability, but it is about process. And people get so sucked into brand strategy as a tool and they're like, oh, if I get my framework right, if I get my pyramid with all my labels in it, I'm a brand strategist. you're like...

Actually, clients don't give a monkeys about the deliverable in terms of the labels. They want the clearest, most simple thing you can give them in normal language. What you need to have the confidence doing is leading them through the process. And that is my only caveat with, you know, just get that under your belt. Like just understand the right sequencing of your...

of a brand strategy process, who do you talk to first? What do you ask them? What would you do next? When would you do customer research? Package it all together. And so you have a really clear process that you can stand up and talk confidently about with a client and that you become their guide through that process. But you can turn that around very quickly.

Shannon Mattern (20:46.563)

Psst.

So good. And I want to shift back to like your career and your, your journey. When did you decide, I want to take all of this that I've learned through working for these agencies and, know, with different brands and all of this and start like helping other people do this work. What was, what did that decision look like?

Sarah Robb (20:58.099)

Yeah.

Sarah Robb (21:21.476)

It was kind of an odd time for me. I was a bit bored, to be honest. I'd done project upon project upon project and I loved my clients and I'd done a whole load of luxury hotels, which sounds all lovely and it was lovely, but I was like, and I'd just been offered another one. was like, I don't really want to do another one of these. And I just, I'm feeling stagnant. And I don't know whether you've ever had that feeling, but I just was like, I need to do something, I need to grow.

Shannon Mattern (21:47.168)

Yes.

Sarah Robb (21:49.651)

I use something you said on a podcast was about lifelong learning and constantly learning. I'm so like that. was just feeling like, I'm not growing. I'm not learning. I'm not, and then not contributing. I sort of felt like, you it's been all this time. And I was seeing so much nonsense written about brand strategy online, like, just so much complex, unnecessary complexity around it. And, and realizing that actually

It's not taught anywhere. Even in the big agencies, even at Lando, I was not taught how to do it, which is crazy. I was thrown in, I learnt on the job, and I had this huge imposter syndrome for so long, like a decade. I'd like, why am I doing this right? Is this really helping clients? And I just could see it in other people. And I was like, I just don't want loads of people to go through what I've been through.

And I would really like to democratise this for people and really help more people learn how to do it. And on a personal thing, like my husband suddenly had to have open heart surgery and he was very well. They just did this scan and his heart was like too large and he had to have this 3D printed crazy bandage put round his heart. It was just bonkers and awful at the same time. And you know, you have those moments of like, what am I doing?

What am I really contributing out there? And if I just start writing more about brand strategy and if I can just help some people, then I'll just, yeah, I felt like that was the time to step more into teaching from just doing. And seeing also so many of the big brands get access to brand strategists, right? Like, and the projects we would do for EY and Smirnoff and all, know, they were thousands of pounds.

Like $3.6 million was an EY rebrand. mean, but there are so many small and medium sized businesses that need help and are brilliant businesses, but they cannot afford, you know, like the Landors of the world. But they can afford really great, talented freelancers, you know, and that's what, and so many of my friends were leaving the agencies and becoming freelancers. I'm like, we can all do this. There's so much we could contribute to help these other businesses grow.

Sarah Robb (24:12.563)

I know that's what you do and like helping so many people and it's a bit of a calling isn't it I think when you want to do that. It's not easy but it's a bit of a calling.

Shannon Mattern (24:22.344)

It's not easy and it is a calling and I do just kind of remember the moment that I was like sitting in my office at corporate and just having like that is, is this it? Is this what, is this my life for the next 30 years coming and sitting in this beige office without windows under fluorescent lights? Like doing.

Sarah Robb (24:35.068)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (24:46.246)

this one spreadsheet over and over and I like, cannot do this. I'm made for more than this. I don't want to, I don't want to go do this at another company. Like, and, that was, that was that moment. And yeah, I think it is. It's something, there was something. And I think this is like what I, what I connected with you on so much is like, there's that thing.

Sarah Robb (25:00.658)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (25:15.712)

where you're like, I want to help other people maybe not experience the thing that I experienced. And so you're like, yeah, I went and I worked at these big agencies and I was constantly questioning whether or not what I did was right and whether it mattered. And it sounds like there was just a moment, I don't know, you tell me, you decided like, I do know what I'm doing.

Sarah Robb (25:24.968)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (25:41.046)

There is a framework behind what I'm doing. I am doing it right. It is helping people. Like you just have to like decide that sometimes, don't you? Instead of waiting for someone else to tell you that you're doing it right.

Sarah Robb (25:49.725)

Yeah.

Sarah Robb (25:54.92)

And there was quite an explicit moment for me, but it was a six month journey where I was like, can't, I remember like standing in front of Novartis Oncology, like they're a big company like Pfizer and you know, they work in cancer. It was a very serious project. And my agency were telling me I had to deliver a visual brand driver and a verbal brand driver as part of this thing. And I was looking at them and we'd got some really great ideas.

ideas for their strategy, but it was being framed in all of this fluff. And I could see the confusion and I could see the frustration in their eyes. And I was like, I can't do this anymore. So I left and I was like, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to figure out once and for all, what is the right model for brand strategy to try and beat this imposter syndrome and to try and make something more helpful for clients. And so I literally took six months out and I studied the 181 world's most valuable brands.

So was like two hours a day and I created this huge database and I was trying to answer, do they all have a positioning? Like, do they all have a vision? And the answer was, there's no consistency in terminology, but there's extreme consistency in the answers to the questions, which is where that four question framework came for me. And that suddenly gave me this, my gosh, no, like half of my battle has just been the jargon. Like it's just, I'm...

this is what they need. I've sold that like for 10 years and every client, doesn't matter who they are. They're like, yeah, this is great. It makes loads of sense. I can talk to my employees about it. And they just get it. And yeah, there was that moment where I decided to stop selling the fluff, but then it took me six months to actually feel like, okay, this is what I want to sell and this is what I believe is right. And then the clarity gave me confidence.

And I think that is just true on so much, right? Like if you have clarity, suddenly you're like, yeah, I can sell this, I can do it. So that's what helped me for sure.

Shannon Mattern (27:58.817)

I love that. like Claire, when I have that, usually it's kind of like a click or something kind of like all snaps into place. It's like, out of my way. This thing is happening. Don't even try to stop me. So yeah, I love that you spent that much time really like studying and, you know, noticing patterns before AI existed to help you, I'm sure.

Sarah Robb (28:10.705)

Yeah.

Sarah Robb (28:14.41)

Hahaha.

Shannon Mattern (28:28.396)

so, but also we were chatting about AI before we hit record about, you know, how it really is significantly shifting our industry and really powerful ways and in ways that people find like,

Sarah Robb (28:29.464)

my gosh i know i wish i'd had it but yeah

Shannon Mattern (28:51.912)

I'm hearing from people that they're like, I don't even know if I want to do this anymore because I'm not sure where I fit in. And I'm like, no, no, no, hold on. let's not, let's not do that. But, I just think there is something about the human brain that is, you know, our, the way that we think our creative perspective, I would be so curious.

Sarah Robb (29:01.816)

yeah yeah yeah that's

Shannon Mattern (29:21.012)

If he would have had, we don't know, but if you had you, would you have come up with the same insights? Had you used AI to analyze those 180 brands or, you know, or not? don't know, but it's interesting to think about. I, I kind of don't think he would have. I think it would have like vanilla and generic made it generic.

Sarah Robb (29:36.125)

Well, that's so funny.

Sarah Robb (29:41.011)

I think, yeah.

Sarah Robb (29:46.045)

think on all of this, right, on anything AI, it requires that human judgment, right? And I'm actually using AI to recreate that study at the moment, ironically, because I want to see how things have shifted. The problem with it is it still needs quite a lot of human engagement because the world of brand strategy is so messy and jargon filled.

Shannon Mattern (29:51.168)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (29:56.341)

Interesting.

Sarah Robb (30:13.84)

that the instructions I've put in the tool are so long and they're based on having done it thousands of times. And then I'm going in to check and I'm going in and layering that human judgment on top, know, and pulling out kind of the emotional ideas. so it's helpful, but there's always that human judgment needed, isn't there? And I think, you know, yes, it's speeding up execution. Yes, I understand that designers of all types are nervous.

And the speed is fab, but it, you know, hits your fees. And, but I do think it's just about adaptation, isn't it? It doesn't have to be, I'm done for. It's just like, how do I need to skill up? What do I need to add into what I do as a skill to future-proof as much as I can and as much as we all know about what I'm doing. And, and you see that World Economic Forum jobs reports and design, yes, is being hit.

But actually the skills that are not being hit are creative thinking and analytical skills. And I think that's why it's a great time to add strategy into what you're doing. Just to give you that advantage and to give you that thing that you have to, it still needs humans. know, a business doing their strategy is not going to just put it all through an AI tool. it's discussions, it's debate, it's...

nuance, it's you know, an AI can speed up loads of the bits of it and it's great for that. Like competitor audits can go so much more quickly now, but there's still judgment needed. That's where I am with it, you know, but it's an overwhelming time for many people and I've felt that. But recently I've just gone all in with excitement on it and I think I went through a little journey of like, and then now I'm just like building tools in my course and I'm totally geeking out and loving it but...

It took me a little while just to get round to, okay, yeah, this is what it is now and I'm going to embrace this and love it.

Shannon Mattern (32:17.184)

Yeah, I think you said the word nuance. Nuance and discernment, for sure. It's really powerful. It can do a lot of fantastic things. And you get to use it to your advantage to help you create even more powerful strategies for your clients. And I've been of the opinion, too. I used to teach web design to DIYers.

Sarah Robb (32:18.246)

I don't know what you are, Shannon.

Shannon Mattern (32:46.604)

So I had a whole course. I'm like, here's how to build a high converting website with WordPress for your small business. And what I learned from that is that there are people who are always gonna try to figure out how to DIY. And then there are people who are like, I don't even care if I could do it with AI. I don't want to, can I hire you to push the buttons for me?

Sarah Robb (32:48.209)

Yeah.

Sarah Robb (33:12.742)

Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (33:14.538)

because my experience was, and it was a free training, it was a completely free training teaching you how to build an entire WordPress site, start to finish, and I earned money from affiliate commissions from the partners that I recommended in that training. And so it broke my brain when people would reach out and be like, your training's awesome, I don't wanna do it, can I hire you to do it for me? And I'm like, I don't understand.

Sarah Robb (33:24.914)

Amazing.

Shannon Mattern (33:43.946)

I'm teaching you how to do it for free. You would have to part with zero money. And they're like, yeah, but I don't want to spend the time doing it. I don't care to learn it. I have no desire to touch any of those buttons. Can't I just pay you to do it for me? And that there are people who are always going to try to figure out how to do something themselves. And there are people who do not even want to care to try to figure it out, even with AI.

Sarah Robb (33:49.201)

Huh!

Shannon Mattern (34:12.394)

And so please don't believe that just because you could do it with AI, everybody is going to do it with AI and that you'll never get another client again. This is just not the case.

Sarah Robb (34:21.124)

Hmm.

So true. mean, so true. I do think there could be like a shift in targeting of clients. I think, and I think this is wise anyway, particularly if you want to sell strategy, that the micro businesses, you know, I think you've got to look at their revenue. Something you had a brilliant conversation on on your podcast was like, think about the revenue of that client and

Shannon Mattern (34:34.06)

Yeah.

Sarah Robb (34:50.482)

If they are only turning over, you know, $100,000 a year or whatever, then are they going to spend $10,000 on you to do their strategy and design? No. I mean, it's just the reality is no. But the smaller medium-sized enterprises, they don't have the time and they have the money. They don't have the time because they're suddenly growing and everything's fracturing and it's getting more complicated and they're hiring people and...

And, and then, which is why they need strategy more than the micro businesses. I mean, everyone needs a brand strategy, but like that they really need it because you can't just go to the founder every day because it's getting too big. And they've got the revenue, you know, and I think it's sometimes it it's sometimes when people feel, it's my job's going or I can't sell strategy. I think it's just who are you selling it to? And, and just thinking about targeting.

I know you talk about pricing so brilliantly as well and packaging your pricing and yeah, and part of it is just stepping back, think, and thinking about that may be harder than you might have had to do before, you know, because the really small businesses might just use Claw Design to do a website, whether you like it or not, and it sucks and you're like, but you know, but the small and medium sized ones, they just won't. They don't have time, like you said, they don't have time.

Shannon Mattern (36:11.337)

And I think it's like an identity shift for people to, to, realize that you can absolutely help a smaller medium, small or medium sized company. Even if you've been working just with these micro businesses that like somehow you think you have to like be a different person to even be able to help these businesses. Like Sarah said at the beginning, it's like you're facilitating a process where you're asking questions.

Sarah Robb (36:33.118)

yeah!

Shannon Mattern (36:40.563)

and putting together a strategy just as you would for a micro business, you know, there might be more moving parts and more stakeholders and things to, you know, things to consider, but like you have the ability to do that. you know, think, think bigger, think more of yourself, value, value your skills. I want to ask you about your brand strategy academy.

Sarah Robb (36:59.196)

Then leave.

Shannon Mattern (37:09.759)

And I'd love to just hear more about like what it is, how it works, what is someone gonna learn when they come into that program?

Sarah Robb (37:25.244)

So it's an online course with on-demand modules and it takes people from feeling that sense of imposter syndrome and lack of clarity into confident strategists. And that is what I get back from everybody again, that is the sort of transformation people feel and then they start selling it, know, and then they start selling it to small businesses and they start and really, and their business transforms as a result of that.

You know, it's everything I've learned in a very practical format. Like the last thing I wanted to do is theory. don't want, no one wants more theory. No one wants more complicated jargon and models. They want to know how do I do it? So it's kind of like everything, like all the research, all the research questions, all the module, you know, a workshop guide, which is scripted. So you can literally just take it and say what's on there and guide your first brand strategy workshop.

proposal templates, the whole slew of tools you need, custom GPTs to do your competitor audit, all sorts of stuff built in. And it is very much designed not to theorize on why do you brand strategy, but like, how do you do it? And here's all the tools. So you feel really equipped and then you can tailor obviously to yourself and your skills and your next, the output from.

the strategy that you want to sell, but it's really about teaching people that practical process. And I do live Q and A's with it too, because I sort of feel, know, people just might have a question and I don't want to be someone who's so distant that they can't reach me. So I do these live Q and A sessions for 21 weeks a year, and that's all included in just the one time price so that you can ask questions about the course. And then when you start selling it, you can bring a client project in and go, hey, I'm running this workshop next week.

I haven't got the right people in the workshop or I think I need to ask this to or whatever you want to ask. I just want to be there to support people as they sell it to which and I am selfishly that's the bit I love the most, you know, like that interaction with people and the questions that I get and the weekly calls that we have. And so that's that's how it works at the moment. And it's not a subscription, but it is you do get lifetime access to all those Q &A's. And I just I just love helping people.

Sarah Robb (39:49.905)

you know, transform their business and step up and scale up with the strategy.

Shannon Mattern (39:54.54)

I always meet people like you and I'm like, Oh, I wish I would have known you back in 2016, 2015 when I was freelancing and, um, not like doing this work, not well, not charging for it, overcomplicating it or kind of skipping over it. Um, because I didn't have a process and I didn't feel like I could go into a business and like run a brand strategy workshop for.

Sarah Robb (40:01.041)

Eheheh

Shannon Mattern (40:24.043)

for their team or whatever. And like on one hand, I'm like, my gosh, that would be so fun. And I kind of wish I would go do freelance again and like offer a brand strategy. But then I'm like, well, it's a good thing I didn't meet her because I wouldn't be where I am like running the, like running the web because you know, if, if I would have gone in that direction, I mean, I'd probably still be running my agency and not, you know,

Sarah Robb (40:37.093)

Yeah.

Sarah Robb (40:44.241)

you

Shannon Mattern (40:53.055)

doing the work that we do in the Web Designer Academy, but I think now more than ever, it is so important to add this strategic piece to your toolkit. Even if you're already doing strategy as part of your product or your projects, it sounds like what you are teaching is...

Sarah Robb (41:10.598)

Mm.

Shannon Mattern (41:18.995)

really different than anything I've heard anyone talk about in terms of the strategy piece of the project. And could be a huge value add to people's web design and web design businesses to be able to lead, to level up who they're serving. With what you're teaching in Brand Strategy Academy,

Sarah Robb (41:43.375)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (41:46.16)

you have been working with these small micro businesses and you're like, well, how do I like break into working with larger clients? This could be at having this type of a methodology and workshop and framework you can walk those clients through could be an excellent way to like make the shift from who you're serving now to serving those bigger clients, because that's one of the things I hear.

a lot and I coach the women on an, in the web designer Academy. They're like, I've outgrown my current clientele, but I'm not really sure how to make the shift. and this could be an excellent like tool in your toolbox and way to get your foot in the door to start reaching out and connecting with, companies who need this next level of work as well.

that you might not be able to tell that they need just by like looking at their website, because you're not selling a website, you're selling something completely different.

Sarah Robb (42:48.506)

Yeah.

Sarah Robb (42:52.527)

Yeah. And I think it's interesting that there are some commonalities of SMEs where they reach that level of SME and they suddenly have to sort of professionalise what they're doing more. They suddenly get much more targeted on customers. So that customer insight piece, and they suddenly start thinking about selling like in the long-term, like how am going to sell this? And then how do I make my brand feel more...

valuable to the business. Like how do I build an asset with my brand? Not just think of brand as like, it's colors and it's actually, this is an asset and it's part of the value of my business. And if I want to sell in a few years time, I've got to get serious about this. but I don't know how to because I've never done this before, right? No one's led a rebrand. People just don't get the chance to do that other than us because we do it all the time for clients, right?

But the clients themselves, meet CMOs who are at the highest level and they've never run one before because brands don't always, their job isn't that job. So they need help. And I think most small medium-sized enterprises are suddenly fracturing as well at that stage. And people are going off and there's no alignment with what one part of the business is saying about who we are and then another part of the business is saying something else. And so it's this prime time just to go in and have a conversation and say, look,

if you're feeling these things and these symptoms and you're trying to achieve this, this is the time to invest in brand. This is an asset that you need to start to develop and I can help you do that and then drive it into whatever your deliverable is, web design, brand identity design, all of the above. So now it's a great time.

Shannon Mattern (44:36.981)

So good. Sarah, I could talk to you for another hour about this, but unfortunately, we are at the end of our time together. Can you share with everyone where they can go to learn more about you, Brand Strategy Academy, get your book, all of the things, where can everybody go to connect with you?

Sarah Robb (44:43.363)

And you.

Sarah Robb (44:56.369)

Come to brandstrategyserra.com and I've got a free mini course on there that's about brand strategy done simply, which is a really great starter for you. think if you're thinking about this, just take the free course, go through the four quick video modules and you'll sort of get a sense of, this is quite simple. I can make it simple and I can do it. So it's just brandstrategyserra.com and I'd love to see you there on LinkedIn also and Instagram. Thanks so much Sharon. It's so great to talk to you. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (45:20.721)

Amazing. And that's Sarah with an H, Brand Strategy Sarah with an H. So thank you so much for being here, Sarah. This was so fun. I really appreciate you coming on the show to share this with everyone. So I'll link everything up in the show notes so you guys can go check that out, brandstrategysarah.com. And yeah, Sarah, thank you so much for being here.

Sarah Robb (45:26.03)

No.

Sarah Robb (45:46.77)

Thank you and thanks for everything you're doing for the community. I mean, you're just doing wonderful things. Thanks so much, Shannon. Great to talk to you. Take care.