#144 – April 2025 Income Report

Shannon Mattern (00:01.956)

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Profitable Web Designer podcast. It is everyone's favorite episode, our monthly income report. This one is for April of 2025 and I am joined by my co-host and client success coordinator, Erica Nash. Erica, welcome to the podcast.

Erica Nash (00:23.352)

Hello everyone, thanks for having me.

Shannon Mattern (00:25.328)

I've gotten so much good feedback about having you on the show and how much people love these interview style episodes and your insights. So I just, love it too. So I'm just really glad that you're here to lead me through this conversation.

Erica Nash (00:44.406)

Amazing. That's great feedback. I'll receive that.

Shannon Mattern (00:46.48)

So for those of you who might be new to the show, maybe you found me through the Simply Profitable Designer Summit or the Page Builder Summit or any of the other events that we've been doing. I have done an income report on my podcast for many, many years now. I used to have an old podcast called Pep Talks for Side Hustlers. I did an income report on that show every month.

Then I took a hiatus from doing income reports between ending that podcast and starting Profitable Web Designer. And I kept that hiatus up because I was like, well, I don't do web design anymore. My business model is different. I am a business coach for web designers. I sell a group program. I don't sell one-on-one services. How much I make, how much I spend, all the lessons learned along the way, kind of irrelevant to someone who has

a web design business where they're providing services. And so I stopped doing the income reports. And I also missed out on all of the insights that I didn't know I was getting from reflecting on the numbers and the lessons and all of the things. so long story short, we decided to bring income reports back, I want to say halfway through 2023 ish.

Erica Nash (02:14.83)

Sounds about right.

Shannon Mattern (02:15.328)

and then we did them all through 2024 and here we are and we're never going to not do them again. So it's our hope that you take away lessons and, just different things. There's so much that happens with our money mindset that goes into how we market, sell, run projects. and we're here to talk about all of it. So.

my good friend and business coach, Alicia St. Germain always says leaders go first. So I'm always like, I'll go first. I'll talk about the numbers. I'll share everything. the good, the bad, the ugly. So that's what this episode is all about. And Erica's here to ask me all of the questions that everybody wants to know about the business and the money and the lessons. So with that frame of reference, Erica, I'll hand it over to you.

to kick us off.

Erica Nash (03:14.326)

Yeah, and I just, I'm so glad you brought these episodes back too, because they really are people's favorite episodes and just like getting that peek into what the business looks like. But also it's just, there's so much, I don't know, there's just a narrative out there about business and money and what that should or shouldn't look like that I think isn't always true.

and we need a lot more transparency. And so, yeah, I appreciate that you're willing to go to this place and talk about all the things.

Shannon Mattern (03:55.204)

Well, thank you for that. I also find that people love to talk about how much they're making when it's going well and they're making a lot. Not many people talk about what the expenses look like. They just like to talk about the revenue and not what the costs are. And I just think that that's.

really important to look at. it's, you know, it's selfish for me too. Like I, I, I need this and this is part of my like coaching for myself to go through this. So, yeah, I think transparency is, incredibly important, not just like from me to everybody listening, but like with ourselves, right. So like really be willing to like, look at the numbers, look at the data.

Erica Nash (04:47.694)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (04:53.2)

And like notice what stories you're telling about it. What else might be true because we get in our own way so much just with how we are thinking and we don't even realize like, we don't have to believe everything we think. Not everything we think is true. The stories we tell ourselves are so important and we get to decide what those stories are and make sure that they're creating wanted results for us. So that's really what this.

is all about for me is to tell the stories that are going to get me to my goals and, um, you know, acknowledge where things didn't go the way that I wanted them to and everything in between. So yeah.

Erica Nash (05:31.682)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (05:43.086)

I love it. What a great way to go into our questions. So how much was the total inflow in April, 2025 and where did it come from?

Shannon Mattern (05:48.399)

Alright.

Shannon Mattern (05:55.3)

Yeah, so our total inflow was $19,402.24. And that was Web Designer Academy enrollments. We had some new students enroll in April. Next Level Mastermind renewals, some Web Designer Academy students renewing there for a year at a time or maybe month to month.

and so the majority of that is web designer Academy and next level mastermind. Some of it is our marketing momentum membership. Not as much as I would like that to be, but we'll we're working on, growing that and yeah, so it's a lot of recurring revenue, some painful renewals. but yeah, it just comes from our flagship core. Program is the web designer Academy and our next level mastermind.

Erica Nash (06:51.83)

I love it. It was so fun to see some of the new students come in and some of our students that chose to re-enroll. It's just always exciting.

Shannon Mattern (07:00.504)

I love it. It's my favorite.

Erica Nash (07:02.316)

Yeah, it is. So what was the total outflow? Where did it go?

Shannon Mattern (07:07.056)

Total outflow $20,988.81. Half of that is our payroll. Eric and I are W2 employees of the company. She's part-time, I'm full-time. We pay salaries on the 15th and the last day of the month. I pay payroll taxes to the state of Ohio and Texas and the federal government for that.

And then also on top of that, I pay into a Roth 401k that I rolled over from like my day job. I pay, I wanna say it's like 500 a month or there's $572 in whatever a month is like the maximum contribution. So I also contribute to.

Um, my retirement account every month, which I don't know if I've mentioned this on the podcast before, but I noticed that in April that payment hit twice on the first and the 30th of the month. was like, why is payroll like $500 more? Like, Oh, because just the way that the dates fell. Um,

So payroll is our biggest expense and our most important expense. Like we cannot run this business without the work that Erica and I do to keep it running. And so I don't think of it as an expense. It's like an investment in the growth of the company and the success of our students. Like I think of Erica, Erica's role is client success coordinator. And so everything that she supports me with or does on her own is like,

to help our students create the results that they came into our programs for. And that's not an expense to me. That's like an investment in everybody winning. So I don't like to call the outflow expenses or, you know, it's just like, it's like my commitment to the mission and vision of the company. So that's that.

Erica Nash (09:09.837)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (09:20.558)

Our software expenses were about 2,500, like our software, like all of the subscriptions for all of the tools that we use to run the business. There is a long, long list. And they are about 2,500 in April. And April is the month that all of the annual WooCommerce subscriptions renew. So I had to two years ago move everything in...

like change the way we were taking all of our payments on everything through WooCommerce. If you want the whole backstory, you can go listen to episode, I think it's 47. But I have a big expense every April of the annual renewal of all of the plugins that I use to accept payments online. And we're actually shifting away from WooCommerce as part of our like,

brand refresh, rebuilding things, rebuilding some systems on the backend. We're using a tool called Spiffy, a checkout tool called Spiffy. And that's been working well, but there's like a transition period of people who are on payment plans through WooCommerce, people starting new payment plans. So I would expect I'll be paying for WooCommerce at least one more year. It'll have to happen again in 2026. But after that, that...

not paying for like WooCommerce, but all of the subscriptions, the premium plugins that make it work. So I won't have to pay for that maybe in 2026. And then also we, what was out of the ordinary was a quiz tool that we're going to be testing called Outgrow because we're developing a quiz to help.

our new website visitors kind of figure out like which of our offers or programs or resources are the best fit for them based on our business journey because part of this brand refresh that we're doing it's not just a paint job it's like really looking at our entire customer journey and reworking that and how we how we support the people coming to our website and finding the rights

Erica Nash (11:32.206)

Thank

Shannon Mattern (11:42.864)

the right resources that we have for them. that was about 2,500. Marketing, that's our next biggest expense. So that was about $5,500 included in that as our conversion rate optimization that we do with Lee Scott of Zanatine Consulting. And again, that's just strategy more than anything. And actually two payments hit in April for

That's so, that was just the way that thing was kind of the way the money flows for some reason to payments came out in April. but also our brand refresh project with Erica Nash of Riot Creative Studio, her, her real gig. And then also I sponsored the page builder summit. So we did a featured speaker.

sponsor of the page builder summit because historically that event has been one that people tell me when I say, did you, when they joined the web designer Academy, I'm like, how did you find us? They're like page builder summit. So it makes sense to support events for more exposure that I think will create a return on investment for me in the future. So that was marketing.

And then 1100 to our like line of credit repayment that I'm still working on from our no good, very bad 2023 year. So yeah, that adds up to about the 20,000. And so we pulled 15, 1586 dollars and 57 cents from our cash reserves to cover that gap.

So yeah, that's April. And I think last month I mentioned like every single month I'm like spending as much as we make. And what's that about? And I know that it's been a deliberate decision to make some investments like in the brand refresh and things like that, that I'm already starting to see the payoff in terms of time and capacity and.

Erica Nash (13:49.87)

You

Shannon Mattern (14:07.298)

just being able to do more things. And so I made that deliberate decision. And then also every month I look at it and I'm like, questioning but not really questioning. Do you know what I mean? Just that fear that we all get like, did I make the right decision? But I know I made the right decision. But that old voice is still like, you took a big swing. What if it doesn't work out? And it's like,

Erica Nash (14:22.488)

For sure.

Shannon Mattern (14:37.146)

but at the same time, my mind goes staying where I was was not an option. And we were just kind of chatting about this before I hit record, but like.

Erica Nash (14:45.059)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (14:51.146)

I was the, I just can't see now that we're even just a few months into the brand refresh and just what it has empowered and allowed me to do logistically, not to mention, I can't articulate like just some doors that it has allowed me to open for myself. I can't imagine not doing it.

Erica Nash (15:20.579)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (15:20.686)

Like, so how could it not be the right decision? So those are my thoughts there.

Erica Nash (15:26.274)

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that it's so interesting because this is just another one of those stories that like we get to reframe for ourselves. you know, and that's true, like in for any business owner questioning any business expense, do I really need this? Was this the right choice? You know, those sorts of questions. We can't know.

we made the choice already and we can undo it. And so moving forward, how do we tell the best story that we can tell because we're human and we are going to tell a really bad story if we have the opportunity, we just are. And so how do we reframe it in a way that allows us to like, be a little bit more relaxed in our nervous system and allow us to move forward.

just in the best possible way.

Shannon Mattern (16:26.04)

Yeah. And as I was, as the words were coming out of my mouth, I was thinking, this is one of your big assumptions, Shannon, that you can make a wrong choice or a wrong decision. Not even that I can make a wrong one, but there is a right one. And then I have to know which one is the right one and make the right one. And so when I say this is a big assumption, last

Erica Nash (16:40.573)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (16:53.814)

month on the podcast, we talked a lot about our next level mastermind and we did our next level framework training in April and had several people come to learn more about like our next level mastermind and what we do in there. And one of the things that we do in there is we identify like what is called a big assumption, but it's really just like a default way that you think or view the world or something that you believe about.

the way the world works, that is like your operating system that then you make decisions and act and think and believe from. And for me, that is that there is like, that I can make a right decision or I can make a wrong decision and that I have to make the right decision. And as I was like saying it, I'm like, there it is.

There's the thing like, you know, when I'm like, when I look at the numbers and I look at the decision that I made several months ago to make an investment in this, knowing that the timeline for return is not instant and that the return is much more than monetary and that it's gonna unfold in many, many ways that I can't even predict.

It's interesting that I can look at a negative number on my balance sheet and immediately go to, did I make the right decision? Which assumes that there's a right decision to be made. And it's just a pattern. It's just a thought pattern that I get to just be like, I notice I'm wondering if I made the right decision. I notice I'm thinking that there is a right decision.

Erica Nash (18:37.422)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (18:53.188)

I don't even have to like go down that thought path anymore. And I can just be like, okay, yeah, I noticed I'm thinking that moving on because I made that decision for a reason and it's gonna play out how it's gonna play out. And there's so many variables and I'm seeing it through all the way to the end. And so it's just really interesting how once we know

those sneaky little ways that we hold ourselves back or get in our own way or sabotage that we can just see them for what they are and move on.

Erica Nash (19:32.814)

I imagine that a lot of people listening resonate with the idea of like making wrong decisions or there is a right decision. So do you have a permission slip for that one that you that you are like a mantra that you use to combat it?

Shannon Mattern (19:50.64)

So interesting. I don't think I've created a permission slip or mantra for that one, but I think that like in this moment, I'm like, there are no wrong decisions. Like I've heard this said before. It's just like, it's the, make the decision and then you make the decision, the right, you just decide it was the right decision and let whatever the outcomes are play out and

that's what was supposed to happen and you were supposed to learn whatever you were supposed to learn from that. And maybe it's not what you think it was supposed, like going to be, right? Like maybe the outcomes and the learnings and the like lessons aren't what you intended, but there's always a payoff in your favor. No matter what, even if it doesn't look like what you thought it was going to look like. And so that's kind of the

Erica Nash (20:41.71)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (20:48.268)

I think back to the hypnosis episode that I did with Lauren Best, who came to our next level retreat. She hypnotized me on the podcast. And then we had like a conversation afterwards, kind of debriefing what that was all about. And her, what we talked about was all about like certainty and like,

Erica Nash (20:53.838)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (21:13.402)

feeling okay, not knowing what's around the next corner, but just trusting. And I think that that's all tied into this. Like if there are just decisions and they're not right or wrong, they're just leading you to the next thing and there's a million different paths that you could take. And I kind of think about this because right now Erica is a learning elementor. She's not been a WordPress designer up until now.

And she's made the decision to learn WordPress and learn Elementor. And she's like, you know, taken to it so fast and also realizing that there are like a hundred different ways to get to the same outcome. And some things lead you to an error or some things like look different than how they looked two days ago or whatever, but like none of it was wrong.

Erica Nash (21:56.046)

Mm-hmm.

Erica Nash (22:05.218)

You

Erica Nash (22:10.286)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (22:10.852)

And that's kind of like the analogy that I get to remind myself. It's like, the way I think about that is like the way I get to think about my business. They're just choices. And I'm just making a series of choices that are leading me towards where I want to go. And I might not know how fast or if I'm taking a detour. I don't know, but like, I know I'm just going to moving forward till I get where I want to go.

Erica Nash (22:40.962)

Yeah.

Yeah, I, there's so much of that that I resonate with and I'm like, those are the stories that I need to be telling, that I need to be telling myself. Because one of my big assumptions is about having all the answers before I do make decisions. And that was the, that was the one that we worked on last November at the Next Level Retreat. And I've made a lot of progress on it. I have seen leaps and bounds where

even things like learning element or like I kind of put myself in a situation where I'm like, okay, I'm doing this and I'm learning as I go rather than the other way around. And I still find myself sometimes like in that place where I need more. I need certainty. I need more information so that I can be and it's about security is what it is. It's really about security so that I can be secure in whatever

might come next, when in reality, it's just like,

that if I was able to see those things, I would be just as stuck. You know, if I was able to see what was around the corner, I would not go. I wouldn't.

Shannon Mattern (24:01.04)

Right. And security comes not comes not from knowing all the things. It comes from knowing that you're capable and resilient no matter what happens, whether you foresee it or don't foresee it. And I think that that's something that I always get to remind myself of too. And you know what is so interesting? Like this is kind of the perfect segue to like, what are all the things that happened?

Erica Nash (24:18.478)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (24:29.258)

in the month of April in terms of like, yeah, we made 19,000, we spent 20,000. But a lot of things happened in April to lead us there. And like one of the very first things we did in April was I just like so very randomly tested an open house for the Web Designer Academy. And so I had, we did like our profitable web design business roadmap training and

Then it was like, I think we talked about this in the last episode. It was like, okay, like are people going to enroll or not? And we have like a 30 day trial for the web designer academy. So it's like, you can come in and, you know, work with us for 30 days and you only pay for your time in the program. And you can like peace out at day 30, no questions asked if it doesn't feel like the right fit for you.

But I also decided, I was just thinking, I'm like, what's something that I can do to just like help people take one step closer to feeling more certain or more secure with their decision to really like know what it's like on the inside. And so I was like, let me just invite everybody to come to our live strategy call. Like they'll fill out a form, they'll come, they'll get to be a fly on the wall. Like if they...

If they meet the criteria of being in the web designer Academy after filling out this form, they can come and just listen in and see like what we do in there. And I think that that's I'm with what we're doing to like rebuild our customer journey is really giving people so many opportunities to at least feel safe or certain or secure enough to take that first step and like let us.

because I think uncertainty of like kind of not knowing what you're really getting into could be one of the things that is holding people back aside from aside from I will just say aside from the investment price you know everyone's like I want to join your program but it's so expensive it's too expensive and I'm just like we're just gonna maybe have to do a whole podcast episode on that but you know

Shannon Mattern (26:54.948)

I was talking to somebody at a conference a couple of weekends ago and she just said, I was talking to a friend who's just like, yeah, I'd love to be in her program, but it's just way too expensive. And I'm just like, if I could just shift everybody's money mindset to realize that like what you will get out of coming into the web designer academy will be.

Erica Nash (27:09.527)

You

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (27:21.922)

many, many, many times more than what you ever pay to be in here.

I wish I could wave a magic wand and like show people that, that their own fear of.

spending in that way is likely what's keeping them under charging over delivering overworking for their clients. And it kind of feels like a little bit of a catch 22, right? But it's like believing in yourself enough to take one step closer to being like, maybe it could work for me. And I'm like, how can I make it so safe for you to just get in here and experience?

Erica Nash (27:48.462)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (28:07.054)

that transformation while also being like, and you gotta have a little skin in the game to like, to experience that, I don't know. So that was like a little bit of a ramble, but the open house was like, it's kind of like the first step to being like, this is how this is different than anything else you've ever experienced before.

Erica Nash (28:13.678)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (28:33.068)

Yeah, I'm so glad that you decided to do that. I mean, so far that's proven to be like a really important piece for the students who attended and then decided to enroll. And I think it's such a great way to allow people to see not just how you and I work, but also the community and just experience like

I don't know the the the safety inside that room because there there is just a level of it's been interesting sometimes we'll have people come in and it's like their very first call and they are able to get really vulnerable in that space and everybody is just so supportive and compassionate and and so I think that that's a really important part of of that of that open house piece. And

Shannon Mattern (29:18.288)

Mm-hmm.

Erica Nash (29:33.73)

I love what you said about like, you got to have some skin in the game. And I think like it is a little bit of a catch 22 and like, you know, I see this in my own business is like, it really is time for me to like hire out some help. And also I know that like momentarily I'm to have to take a hit like in my income for that. And that feels like a really hard place to be. And I think that that's very much the same way of like,

You you've got to take a little bit of a hit in the money that you're generating in order to create time, money capacity, time capacity to create more money. You know, it's just it and it's just such a it's a strange place to be. And it feels like such a back and forth of like, should I shouldn't tie and and you know, then you get into all of the stories that you tell yourself.

And so, I mean, for anybody that's listening that's like on the fence, just come to an open house and like see what it's all about. And then, you know, we can talk through the rest of those things. But yeah, I think that that opportunity to interact with us and us with them and them with the rest of the community is just so, so valuable.

Shannon Mattern (30:59.376)

I was thinking, cause you said take a hit. got, you got to be willing to take a hit. And I think that that is like an interesting way to frame it. And it kind of like ties back to what I was saying earlier. It's like, Oh, I had made this decision that I'm going to part with this money now for a future, uh, payoff.

whatever that looks like in terms of time, capacity, revenue. Like I knew that there were some things that needed to change and I'm experiencing some instant gratification from making those changes. And then there's going to be some results that are delayed, but I've always thought of it as like, Hey, hold this money for me. I'm coming back for it. Not that I'm like taking a hit. Like whenever I invest in

Erica Nash (31:49.634)

I love that.

Shannon Mattern (31:54.96)

I'm investing in, working with you and working with, Lee at Zayn-A-Tayn and working with a few other, people. And the way that I always think about it is just like, here, just hang onto this. I'm coming back for it. and.

when I think about it that way, it doesn't feel even feel like scary. It feels like it's got that little undercurrent of like, watch me like, get out of my way, like a little bit of that, like not rebelliousness, but it's just not like, I don't feel like I'm taking a hit in the short term for a long term gain. I feel like I'm like,

Erica Nash (32:33.538)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (32:49.358)

Because even that feeling of like taking a hit almost makes it feel like you're not getting anything in the meantime, right? Where it's like, if it is like, I'm going to part with some money now to bring in support, that's not taking a hit, that's creating capacity.

Erica Nash (33:11.32)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (33:12.59)

And you will get some immediate relief and help and whatever. And then it's like, yes, you're going to have a plan for here's what I'm going to do with that extra capacity to create more revenue or whatever that is. But I just, it's interesting language and that people say that, like, I don't know if I can take the risk or take the hit or whatever. And there's just the assumption that like it's.

Erica Nash (33:36.526)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (33:41.648)

never coming back or it's gone forever or whatever that is. And it's just like, no, just re I reallocated this to something that's going to help me grow. And that's why that's why I'm like, there has to be it has to be enough that it's like a commitment for you to really like, do the thing. But also it's it has to be profitable and sustainable for us as a company.

to work with you at the level that we work with, we practice what we preach, right? So our pricing is such that it's profitable and sustainable for us to operate our business. And also in such a way that like, kind of calls you to rise to, like calls you to make the decision of like, is this what I really want? And am I willing to commit the time and the resources?

Erica Nash (34:10.658)

Right?

Erica Nash (34:15.182)

Mm-hmm.

Erica Nash (34:36.27)

right?

Shannon Mattern (34:39.376)

to get the support that I need. And it's actually like, I don't know, like it might feel like, do I have the time for it? Can I commit to it? Whatever. But it's like, you get so much more than you have to give.

Shannon Mattern (34:57.56)

So it's just like that shift that I would love everybody to consider when they're thinking about like, what's it costing me to continue to try to do this on my own and piece it together versus like getting the help that we know we give to people because we hear it all like all the time. just we were just coaching someone in our community today about like

Okay, it was like crickets and now I'm experiencing like the problems of success. She said the irony is not lost on me that three weeks ago I was freaking out that I didn't, I wasn't getting clients and now I have three inquiries and now I'm freaking or not three, like, yeah, three projects that she's trying to figure out how she's going to like schedule them. And then there's some time scarcity and people won't wait and all of that. And like, we're now coaching her through the problems of success.

Erica Nash (35:35.329)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (35:56.836)

where typically people would slam on the brakes and sabotage their success and all of that stuff. So that's really, it's just fun to see how that plays out. I don't love that she's like stressed out about it, but I love that she's stressed out about it, because that means it's working. We can help with that.

Erica Nash (36:08.289)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (36:14.484)

Yeah, exactly. I mean, if you're going to be stressed about something, let's make it something that's going to be profitable. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Thanks for the impromptu coaching. This is just a preview.

Shannon Mattern (36:18.512)

Right. So good.

Shannon Mattern (36:27.365)

You're welcome. You're welcome.

Erica Nash (36:31.8)

So what were some of the other important things that happened in April?

Shannon Mattern (36:37.05)

So personally, had, I just turned 45 in November. So I had my colonoscopy in April, which that was really important to me to make sure that I got that procedure done because my best friend two years ago was diagnosed with colon cancer. After her routine colonoscopy, they're like, hey, guess what? You have colon cancer.

And thankfully she was able to have surgery. Everything went well. she is fully recovered, but, that made me really want to get one as soon as I turned 45 so that I could take care, like do whatever I needed to do. And thankfully for me all good. but that was just an important thing for me to prioritize.

And I did notice myself thinking like, well, if I get bad results, then I don't know if all of these things that I've scheduled after this procedure are going to happen. And I almost wanted to not schedule things for after the procedure. And then I was like, whatever. I'll deal. Let the problem come to you. That's another thing that we.

say all the time is just like, let the problem come to you. And had I gone with that impulse of like, well, I have to know the outcome of this before I do anything else, then I would have missed out on so many things in April and May, just in a holding pattern waiting for.

An arbitrary piece of information important. Yes, but our, you know, and so that's kind of why I was like, I'm so proud of myself for just being like, yep. And business as usual, unless I find out otherwise. And. You know, I know it's like a health situation is not the same as like a business situation, but that's kind of like what I think about when I'm thinking about our student who's like.

Shannon Mattern (38:54.692)

How am going to schedule all of these things because what if this person wants this and what if this and this and this? It's just like nothing's set in stone until something's set in stone. And then you make decisions based on the things that are set in stone and not based on all of the what ifs and how can I make this work? And you just get back so much capacity when you decide to like not try to make decisions before you have all of the information.

Erica Nash (39:05.837)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (39:24.812)

Yes, I love that so much too. Like that really, really speaks to me. And I think there's a piece about it too, where it's like, we cannot think our way out of.

scenarios, we can't think our way out of a spiral, we can't think our way out of whatever in our brains, that's what got us there in the first place. And so, you know, if you're having the thoughts of like, well, I can't make decisions until I do until you know, XYZ happens, and that's not something you have control over. Like that those are the things that keep you stuck. And so we have to take action.

to keep moving forward and like you said, let the problem come to you. And the hardest part of that, right, is like trusting that when that problem or if that problem, because it's not a guarantee, right, if that problem does come to you, that you'll be able to figure it out, whether it's on your own or with your community or with your trusted people in your circle. So I just think it's so important and I love that you didn't.

let it keep you in that place, in that kind of holding pattern, and you took action instead.

Shannon Mattern (40:44.548)

Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that I had scheduled kind of came out of a retreat that I went to with my mindset coach Alicia St. Germain in February, where there were other people there in different industries other than web designer. So a lot of the things that I do in the spaces I put myself in are typically

web designers, like, you know, we're all kind of doing the same thing. And obviously, cause I'm building a business that serves web designers. That's where I prioritize putting my time, but Alicia hosted this retreat and she invited, all types of entrepreneurs to this retreat. And so I'm hearing them talk about their challenges with pricing and boundaries and imposter syndrome.

And, people pleasing and undercharging and over delivering. I'm like, hold on. And our podcast producer, Phyllis Nichols, of sound advice strategies. She listens to every single one of these episodes because she produces this podcast. And a couple of weeks before the retreat, she was like, Hey, can you help me? I hear you talk about like your packages and different things that you do on the podcast. She's like, can you help me put together?

some packages for my podcast producing. And I was like, I've got to teach you our package matrix strategy. Like, let me just help you out. Let me just like give this to you and you can structure your offers because a lot like she was having a lot of the same challenges. I'm scared to raise my prices. What if I lose all my clients? All of these things. And I'm like, Patrick solves all of these things. Like Patrick is our

I can't say package matrix. I can say it a lot better now, but I oftentimes say Patrick matrix and it's been nicknamed Patrick by our students. So I'm like, I'm going to teach you Patrick and you're going to create a Patrick. And she was at this retreat and I didn't even have to say it. I'm just like listening to people talk about this and Phyllis is like, my gosh, Shannon has to tell you about Patrick because Patrick's going to solve all of

Shannon Mattern (43:08.409)

And I was just like, this is the tool inside of the Web Designer Academy. That's like our secret weapon, for lack of a better term, of how we operationalize helping you stop undercharging and over-delivering. It's not just like, hey, stop undercharging and over-delivering. Change your mindset and raise your prices and everything will be fixed. We actually have like a tool that we give you.

Erica Nash (43:28.622)

You

Shannon Mattern (43:36.066)

to use in your business to make that happen. But I kind of keep that tool tucked into module, whatever of the web designer academy. That might be a discussion for another podcast episode.

Erica Nash (43:52.439)

you

Shannon Mattern (43:54.714)

But it was at that retreat that I was like, my gosh, I could teach the package matrix strategy to service providers outside of the web designer academy and it could like really help them.

And so at this retreat, like it was like at the end, it was like, what's one action that you're going to do? And I'm like, I'm just going to schedule a workshop on April 10th. And I'm going to do the exact same thing marketing strategy that I teach our web designer Academy students to do is to reach out to my friends and people in my network and say, Hey, I'm doing this thing. Do you know anyone who would like to attend? And I had like.

16 people there and I was like, what is happening? So I teach the package matrix strategy. I was like, listen, this is total market research. I'm curious if this strategy resonates with you, if it makes sense to you, whatever. I taught it to a ballroom dance studio owner. Let's see, someone who does.

Erica Nash (44:48.24)

Hehehehe

Shannon Mattern (45:14.512)

consulting for Amla 100 law firms. Gosh, who else was there? Podcast producer Phyllis was there. Nancy does digital marketing strategy.

Erica Nash (45:27.48)

Somebody had a physical subscription, like a subscription box or something? I can't remember.

Shannon Mattern (45:37.604)

I don't know, but there was like a plethora of different types of business owners there. accountants and CPAs, like just so many different things. And that was like the realization that I was like, my gosh, like I have been keeping myself safe in my comfy little comfort zone of teaching package matrix exclusively to web designers.

Erica Nash (45:39.019)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (46:07.438)

because I didn't realize that I didn't think I felt qualified to teach pricing strategy to any other industry. And that was a huge, huge, ginormous breakthrough for me in the month of April where I was like, my gosh, I am keeping myself so small and safe by only

talking to web designers. And like a new bio emerged from that. Like I'm a pricing coach for service providers. You know, a new, not new, but like an adjacent like strategy of taking the package matrix on the road, so to speak, to service providers. I've presented on it in a couple of different spaces now and gotten feedback that people are like,

wait a minute, what? And my friend Phyllis, who's this podcast producer, she was like, I've been in sales for 30 years and this blew my mind. And I'm like, okay, and then I had a hard time believing that it was actually that big of a deal, but it's because I keep myself safe in a community that I feel like I don't know, that I don't feel like I'm an imposter in. And so,

That was a huge, huge deal to be like, here's how I've been keeping myself safe. And it's time to make some stretchy, uncomfortable moves. And it was so uncomfortable to present that training to my peers who don't experience me in that type of a role, ever. And I don't know. So it was a, it was a definitely a month of like growth and stretching.

Erica Nash (48:03.574)

Yeah, so I'm just curious like how...

that was uncomfortable, you knew it was uncomfortable. You have your like comfy cozy space where you feel really safe. Like how did you make yourself take that step outside of your comfort zone where it felt a little risky?

Shannon Mattern (48:29.412)

Well, I didn't realize how uncomfortable it would be until the date was approaching. And I think for me, same thing happened with Josh Hall's web designer pro conference. I spoke in person at that on May 2nd when Josh invited me to speak. I was like, yes, absolutely. I'll just come talk about whatever you want me to talk about. And then as the day got closer, I was like,

Erica Nash (48:36.846)

Mm.

Shannon Mattern (48:58.694)

wait, I'm standing up in front of real people. I don't have a script available to me because like I'm not just, you know, on zoom staring at a camera with some notes on the other screen or like right there to reference. And it's people that I don't know and whatever. So I think.

Erica Nash (49:02.155)

You

Shannon Mattern (49:25.04)

how I get myself to do it is just making the commitment. I scheduled the workshop. I put it on my calendar and then I sent the email to invite people. And I didn't know I was gonna feel the way I felt until the day, days approached until I was like, my sister was one of the people who was there. She's the consultant for the legal services industry. And we went to dinner.

And I'm just looking at her. I'm like, I'm so nervous for you to like come to this thing and see me do this thing. And she was like, I cannot come if you want. And I'm like, no, actually I need you to, because I need to get over it. so there's that is like, I just, I don't know what I'm going to be afraid of until I just take the action and then the kind of let the fear bubble up. But then I also don't stop. I don't believe the fear.

Erica Nash (49:57.742)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (50:22.584)

I mean, sometimes I do, but I also realized like it's a self protective thing. like, when it came to speaking at Josh's event, it was so cool. By the way, if you were there and you were listening to this, that was a huge breakthrough weekend for me too, to hear everyone who came up to me and said, like, I can't believe I'm meeting you. I listened to your podcast.

It's so great to meet you. I love what you do. I appreciate that so much. And that also was like a breakthrough moment for me because I realized like, I'm keeping myself small by doing everything behind my laptop in my comfy safe comfort zone. But also I realized like, I was so afraid of like,

It was a self protective thing. like, I'm afraid people won't like this training or like, I don't know. I don't think people would actually boo me, you know, but like that fear comes up, right? And we were on our, my husband and I were on our way home from like the social event. And he was like, I met so many people that had so many nice things to say about you.

Erica Nash (51:27.342)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (51:43.032)

tomorrow is gonna be fine. And I'm like, I realize my brain is doing that thing that thinks the worst of people to protect me from a worst case scenario. And not like any one person in particular, but just like, like, what if this really bad, what if these people are really like awful to me? Which is just my brain like throwing out some judgment.

to protect myself from like, you know, experiencing that, like, or being blindsided by it, right? And then I have to just be like, that's ridiculous. Like, A, you already met every single one of these people and they're all incredible humans. So the fact that the idea that your brain would even think differently of like something different would happen, that's a mismatch.

of like the facts that you have in front of you, you can safely set that aside.

Erica Nash (52:47.202)

Yeah. Was it, was it anything, did it have anything to do with the fact that like, you, like Patrick is, is your, like he's yours and he's like your heart and soul. And, and like, and, you know how to, like as a designer, you, put stuff out there and like sometimes you get feedback and it just like hurts because like you put your heart into it. So was there like a piece of that in there?

Shannon Mattern (52:48.288)

and go ahead.

Shannon Mattern (53:03.322)

He's my pet.

Shannon Mattern (53:17.316)

I think it was more that like, would be like, like being perceived as a fraud. And the interesting thing is that like, I don't feel like.

Erica Nash (53:26.67)

Mmm.

Shannon Mattern (53:33.124)

because I've seen it work time and time and time and time again. Like we know that the strategy, I can sit here and be like, it's proven, right? I also notice how often that I want to prove it. And so going into that talk, I was like, I only have 35 minutes. I get to remove all of the places from this presentation where I'm trying to.

Erica Nash (53:42.606)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (54:01.968)

prove that this strategy is legit. explaining the concepts that underlie it and all of that, I just pulled all of that out because I'm like, that's unnecessary here. Like I have 35 minutes to give them the best, most actionable information about this strategy so that they can leave this room and fly back to Canada or Washington state from Ohio or wherever they came from.

Erica Nash (54:04.302)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (54:29.602)

And implement this. And I wanted to like make sure that they had all of the value. And so it wasn't so much. It was like the juxtaposition of like the old me who hoards Patrick and has the belief that like, if people know what this is, then they'll just never buy the web designer Academy. They'll just reverse engineer it and I'll lose everything. Right. The big time bad, the big assumption. Like.

Erica Nash (54:56.419)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (54:58.958)

There's no value in anything else we do in the web designer Academy. If Patrick isn't kept under wraps, which is so ridiculous to say it out loud, but you don't realize until you put yourself in certain situations, what the, what the real things are going to be. And I think that that's kind of coming back to your question of like, how do you, how do you make those decisions?

Erica Nash (55:09.774)

But it's real, know, that fear is real.

Shannon Mattern (55:29.104)

I just do, and then I like deal with whatever comes up along the way, knowing that it's going to be exactly the growth that I need, that I didn't know that I needed. Like I didn't know I needed to figure out that I was keeping myself safe just by talking to web designers, even though multiple people have said to me,

Shannon, have you considered opening this up outside to other service providers? And I'm just like, no, can't. How would that work? It's called the web designer Academy. Like I can't have people in here that aren't that like, it never occurred to me that I could just be like, let me go do something else over here and do the same thing for other people. Or that like, I do want to speak on stages, but I didn't realize how like,

if these people don't know me personally, or they didn't buy the ticket to be here because I invited them, this feels unsafe. And now I have to like prove it, prove that I know what I'm talking about. And I'm so glad that that kind of came up and that I had a constraint where it's like, if you spend all your time proving, they're not going to get anything out of this. So let's just drop that part and give them all the good stuff.

Erica Nash (56:35.555)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (56:42.766)

Mm-hmm.

Erica Nash (56:50.124)

good stuff. Listen, from an educational standpoint, I love that you stripped it all the way back and just like gave him the actionable stuff. But also that's huge, like that's a huge move for you. Like I'm so proud of you that you were able to do that and not, even though maybe you still felt like you needed to prove it, maybe I don't know if you went out there kind of feeling that way.

Shannon Mattern (57:15.332)

didn't. I was very aware of like, this proving is holding me back. By that point, like, I get to shed this weight that I've been carrying that I have to justify or prove or whatever. It's just like, how many years and students and examples do we have of

Erica Nash (57:19.096)

Good.

Shannon Mattern (57:45.328)

this working and one of the people that I taught the strategy to on that April 10th workshop, we just had coffee, uh, yesterday and she was like, Shannon, I cannot wait to give you like a real testimonial. She was like, I Patricked five proposals in the past two weeks and generated $150,000 of revenue for my company.

Erica Nash (57:46.935)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (58:12.75)

Stop it. That's amazing.

Shannon Mattern (58:16.386)

And I'm like, I was like, are you, I was so freaking excited for her. I, but then I was like, but you would have made that without the package matrix, right? She was like, no, like, cause I was just looking at her like, I know you're amazing. I know you're great at sales. That didn't help you did it. And she's just looked at me like, what are you talking about?

Erica Nash (58:40.142)

That's so funny. That's amazing.

Shannon Mattern (58:42.894)

So it's like, yeah, it's so cool. And so all of that being said, and I know we're kind of coming up on the end of this podcast episode, it's I'm creating, I'm thinking of creative ways to create safety for myself and to be able to teach the package matrix strategy outside of people having to be in the web designer academy, but in a way that does,

Honor the value of the strategy because I still think that like it's something that is not like, I'm not going to just be doing like free Patrick trainings after my market research period is done. Like I have one more Patrick training scheduled on the service provider side. That's like a market research type of thing, which

I haven't even advertised and people are finding it and signing up for it. So all of these little experiments that I'm doing and just being like, maybe I don't have to know how this is all gonna unfold. And I just get to follow the threads and the breadcrumbs. And there are so many more threads and breadcrumbs that we don't really have time to talk about today that I'm following and little synchronicities of things that are happening that I'm like.

Erica Nash (59:47.086)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (01:00:01.463)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (01:00:06.554)

that are showing me the path instead of me trying to like cut the path, you know? Yeah.

Erica Nash (01:00:14.018)

Yeah, which is so much less work. So much less work.

Shannon Mattern (01:00:18.85)

Isn't that crazy? take your foot off the brake instead of, you know, or put some gas in the car versus just trying to push it. So, yeah, so many big breakthroughs that if I hadn't put myself in some stretchy situations because those decisions were towards things that I want,

Erica Nash (01:00:25.976)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (01:00:48.568)

I wouldn't have uncovered what's been holding me back. And I kind of think like, I know decisions you're making in your business are causing you to stretch a little bit more and then like reveal to you where your work is. And then you're willing to do the work instead of like pulling back.

Erica Nash (01:00:48.738)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (01:01:08.984)

Yeah, I mean, it would be really easy to pull back, but also like where I am is not where I wanna go. And so, you know, that's the trade-off is like, okay, well now we get to do like this deep kind of messy work sometimes, or we get to do the work, this deep work, sometimes it's gonna be messy.

Shannon Mattern (01:01:23.118)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (01:01:38.158)

And on the other side, it's gonna be so, so worth it. And so it's just really learning to identify those opportunities and then like take care of myself while I'm in the midst of that deep kind of messy work. So yeah.

Shannon Mattern (01:01:42.81)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (01:01:59.002)

I've really learned to like love the breakthrough, I guess. Like, I think that like I get so excited when I figure out how I've been in my own way. I'm like, my God, like I don't really beat myself up. I'm sure there was a time that I did beat myself up about like, I should have known, or I didn't even realize I was doing this to myself. if I would have figured it out sooner, I might be so much farther along. Like, I don't think like that. I'm just like, my gosh, I just realized that.

Erica Nash (01:02:11.426)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (01:02:28.654)

I didn't even know I was just staying in the web designer world because I was feeling like an imposter stepping outside and then I could come up with 10 other reasons why it was a bad idea to go outside versus I delight in those instead of being like, you know, degrading myself over.

Erica Nash (01:02:45.88)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (01:02:50.072)

I love that. That's incredible. I was thinking about this episode, recording this episode, seeing it on my calendar and stuff like that. I was just really excited to talk because April felt like a really special month. And I know that there were a lot of things happening and you've had some breakthroughs, I had some breakthroughs. And it just felt like a really special month. And I was like, I'm just so excited for what's to come.

It's just, it's gonna be amazing. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (01:03:21.072)

Yeah, me too. And we didn't even really get to touch on where we're at in the brand refresh process. But we're kind of in the thick of things. We're applying the branding to website page templates and planning out the structure of the new website and planning it out in accordance with the customer journey and all of the things that we've learned with all the things that we've tried. And so we're kind of really behind the scenes.

Erica Nash (01:03:28.589)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (01:03:50.114)

I don't know, like preparing for the build and I'm using new branding and slides already. decided like, we're not waiting for a big reveal. So if you go to webdesigneracademy.com now you'll see a little banner at the top of the screen. That's like, Hey, take a peek. And then you can actually sign up to get Erica's full.

Erica Nash (01:03:53.164)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (01:04:17.262)

brand refresh case study with all of the videos of all of our back and forth, all of the decisions, the messiness of it, the places I got scared, like the places where I had to give feedback that was uncomfortable for me to give and just, and all of the really beautiful parts of it too. So you can just go to our website, click on the little take a peek button in the top, enter your email address and we'll send you that case study and you can kind of.

You'll learn a lot from the process too, just about leading a client through a project in a really powerful way. Cause Erica's so, so talented at that. So.

Erica Nash (01:04:59.034)

Well thank you, it is quite immersive. It's a big case study.

Shannon Mattern (01:05:02.136)

Yeah. So yeah, in addition to being our client success coordinator, she runs Riot creative studio where she does brand strategy and brand design for really cool companies like ours. So you should go check that out. And, in the future, she's going to be teaching, Her process for brand strategy to our web designer Academy students. So if that feels like a place that you're,

interested in like exploring and having a solid process, maybe consider coming to one of our next open houses and learning more about that. So yeah, you can get all of that information on our website. Make sure you're on our email list. We'll put links to the open house and all of that in the show notes. Any final thoughts for everyone, Erica, before we...

Wrap up this month. had like five more things on my list that we could have talked about, but yeah, now.

Erica Nash (01:06:04.482)

There were so many, so many good things. I just think like a thought that kind of came to mind talking about the brand process, but also the web design process is like, I think it's just so important to have people that are willing to demystify things for you because sometimes it feels like things are kept behind a curtain that it's really hard to understand if you like.

Me, I'm self-taught in everything and I'm finding that the majority of web designers, brand designers are also self-taught in most of the spaces. And it's just so much easier when you have somebody who's willing to kind of shed some light on some of the things that just feel like you can't quite crack it or you can't quite understand or whatever. I think we...

I mean, I'm gonna toot our own horn, because I think we do a great job of that inside WDA.

Shannon Mattern (01:07:07.706)

Well, thank you. you know, I feel like, you know, I wish we could change the conversation around being self-taught, like in terms of what we make that mean somehow that like, it's not good enough or whatever. But I also understand like when you are teaching yourself something that you don't know what you don't know.

Erica Nash (01:07:25.038)

Mm-hmm.

Erica Nash (01:07:36.323)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (01:07:37.04)

Like being able to see what other people are doing. Like there's an element of like trust and like, yeah, I trust myself. I understand. You know, I want to get to this outcome and I'm going to figure, and I'm going to reverse engineer and figure out my way there. And I'm going to teach myself along the way. And all of that is like very valid. then what also is just helpful is just seeing, we said earlier, the a hundred different ways that people do it.

that you can put together the way that works best for you out of all of those different ways and like not make, not make it mean that because you have, taught yourself a way to do it that you love, that works for you, that vibes with you, that like feels good to you, that you like, that unless someone certifies that as correct, that somehow it's not.

Erica Nash (01:08:05.42)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (01:08:34.65)

correct and that you're less than and you can't charge as much. And so I really just want to, like, I would love to tear down any self-taught stigma that is out there and invite you to put yourself in the room with other people doing really cool things who like,

Want nothing more than everyone to be successful who are open books. Like we are on this podcast to be like, let me show you everything that I do for my clients and nothing's right or wrong. It's just a process and you get to build your own and like fall in love with it and be confident in it and stop saying that there's something wrong with being self-taught.

Erica Nash (01:09:18.03)

Yeah.

Erica Nash (01:09:24.152)

That's a beautiful way to end this.

Shannon Mattern (01:09:25.944)

Yeah, I'm like, I had to get up on my soapbox about that. let this episode end without going there. So Erica, thank you so much for being my co-host on these income report episodes. And we'll all see you back here next week with another episode. Bye.

Erica Nash (01:09:32.033)

you

Erica Nash (01:09:46.721)

Awesome, bye.