#146 – What’s Changing (and What Isn’t) for Women in Web Design with WP Mavens

Shannon Mattern (00:01.847)

Hello everyone and welcome back to the profitable web designer podcast. I have two very special guests here with me today. Haley Brown and Emma Kate of WP Mavens. I've been so excited for this conversation. I've interviewed you both individually on the podcast. Emma Kate was in episode six way back in the day and Haley was episode.

And now this is going to be episode 146. So it's been a hundred episodes, more than that, 140 episodes since we last spoke. So I'm just really excited to catch up with both of you and talk all things, trends, challenges, opportunities, and just hear what's been going on with you and the WP Mavens community. So.

I'm just going to hand it over to Haley to just briefly introduce yourself, tell a little bit more about you and your role at WP Mavens. Then we'll hear from Emma Kate and then we'll just like get into it. So Haley.

Haley Brown (01:13.39)

Thank you for having us. I won't dive too deep. In the last episode, we obviously chatted a heap, but I'm a web designer that's moved into sort of mentoring course creation, working with primarily female web designers to help them create a business that they actually enjoy and that they can have a life around. So that's something that I'm in particular trying.

I try and live myself is my life is first, not my business. And yeah, so my goal is to help other women do the same.

Shannon Mattern (01:49.181)

I'm a Kate.

Emma Kate (01:51.519)

Yeah, I'm a graphic designer turned web designer and Haley was actually one of my very original mentees back in the day. We were friends and I started mentoring her as she was starting to get into graphic design, web design. And she got really hardcore down the WordPress web design route. And then I sort of followed suit as well, dropping a lot of the graphic design and then

getting into WordPress web design and then that's kind of how our thing together WP Maven's memberships that I came about which is very focused on WordPress as opposed to you know all the other web design platforms out there. So that's a huge focus for me now obviously got into course creation as well and summits and we have the Women of Web Summit coming up so that's a that's a big thing on our plate right now as well.

Shannon Mattern (02:46.477)

I love it. And I'm so honored to be speaking at the Women of Web Summit this year. You can get your free ticket right now at the time of this recording. So we'll have all of the links and everything in the show notes for this episode, but it's definitely one you're not going to want to miss. And Haley, I want to like start this conversation with you because you

by asking you this because you mentioned that you want to help women web designers create a business they enjoy. And we are all kindred spirits in that regard, but I am curious, like, why do, why is that even a problem? Right? Like I'm curious, like, what is it that causes us to create businesses that we don't?

enjoy. I wonder what your perspective is on that.

Haley Brown (03:47.63)

That is such an interesting question. Well, I came from a corporate background and for me it was just that I didn't want to do that anymore. I didn't want to have a family and that be my life where I only saw my child for an hour or so of an evening and they were in after school hours care all the time. I was very fortunate with my parents. They worked extremely hard to put me in all the activities and keep me busy and keep me out of trouble.

I got to go on all the excursions, all those sorts of things, but they weren't there. So I'm very, very grateful for what they did sacrifice for me. but one thing I took out of that is I didn't want that to be what my life looked like. And I didn't have it. If I stuck in the corporate world, I didn't have a choice. That's, that's what it would be. So I had to figure out how could I create something where I can show up at my child's assemblies, where I can drop what I'm doing if I need to so that

I can be there when he needs me. so I can see how we all get into the space where you just work a nine to five and that's, that's what it is. Like that's what life is. But I think it's really, really important that something Emma and I both really strongly believe is you don't have to have $10,000 months. Some coach turned around and said that 15 years ago that 10, the $10,000 month is the benchmark of success. No, it's not.

Emma Kate (05:07.253)

you

Haley Brown (05:15.648)

Not everyone lives in a city. Not everyone needs to earn X amount. I want to earn enough that my life is balanced. And so that's something that I've kind of really put in practice, sustainable income so that I can live the life that I want to live. I might not be earning three, $400,000 a year and that's totally fine, but I have the life that I want and I'm available. yeah, so I don't know if I answered the question, but

Emma Kate (05:44.341)

I think.

Shannon Mattern (05:45.314)

You did. And it really gave me, I don't know, not chills. It made my chest buzzy and bubbly and excited because we were literally just having this conversation in our next level mastermind about one of our members was like, I feel successful. And then she started to like walk it back because

she like her revenue numbers are not like the splashy flashy, whatever money and she's doesn't have a team and running an agency. And it was a fascinating conversation that like, now you're going to say, wait, wait, but like, I'm not going to claim that success. Because it doesn't check these boxes that somebody, whoever that is deemed

this is successful. And when everything that you said is like, it's autonomy, it's freedom, it's the choice to build our life exactly the way we want it, not what you think I should be doing, but what I think I should be doing and what I want to be doing, that's success period. And nobody else gets to define that for us. And that just, everything you said just made me like, it fired me up, you know, because that's truly.

Emma Kate (07:07.989)

Mmm.

Shannon Mattern (07:09.707)

what it's all about. So Emma Kate, what is your perspective on that?

Emma Kate (07:16.071)

Yeah, I think Haley and I were very different in that regard. Haley had come into it a little later, a little more mature and like more intentional in how she wanted to grow her web design business. Her web design business was for her to escape the corporate world and have a family and all that jazz. I got into it when I was very young. I think I started freelancing when I was like 23, quit my full-time job when I was 24.

just using it as like, you things so could go traveling. Like I had no intention of like, family wasn't on the mind, all that stuff wasn't on the mind. So I just took the advice of everyone else. And so I think that's, that's definitely where

I got your sort of original question was like, why is this even a problem that we have to like, try to help other women or web designers create these businesses that actually work for them. And I think the problem or part of the problem is people like me, when you start out and you

just take the advice of everyone else and you have no intention about how much you actually need to earn, what you want your business to look like, what hours you want to work, what boundaries you want to set, all that stuff. So I was...

really just doing bending over backwards for my clients, not setting boundaries, not charging enough. Like that's one thing Haley and I kind of laugh about now, but when she first started freelancing and I had like five years more experience than her, she was charging more than me. And I was like, what is going on? Like, this is not fair, but it's because she came in really intentional and she knew her worth from the corporate world. And I've just been like,

Emma Kate (09:07.463)

wing in it, freelancing, being all like Ladi Da for a while, not taking it seriously and thinking that that's all I could possibly charge. So.

I think that's part of the problem is people just sort of getting into it. Cause it's an easy job to kind of fall into web design. All you need is a laptop and an internet connection. You can kind of just do your thing, but lots of people don't go back and go, okay, how much do I actually need to survive and, you know, grow and have the life that I want to live and what are some boundaries that I can set and all these things. People sort of don't go back and do that intentional work that Haley was quite good at doing early on.

Shannon Mattern (09:48.711)

I feel like I'm a blend of both of you in a way, because I wanted, I was in corporate and I had climbed the corporate ladder, but I also felt really, really trapped by that life. And I didn't want to leave for the freedom of like having a family, but I wanted to have more impact. Like I just felt that I had more to offer than what

I, what the, what I was able to do at my job, but like for me, I was so conditioned to be a great employee and a people pleaser that I took all of that to my client relationships. And so it was about like, well to keep the safety and security of the client to keep paying me and to keep my good reputation and my good name. I'm going to just do whatever they want, whatever they want.

And then they'll like me and I'll avoid conflict. meanwhile, I am working 24 seven. My family is like, what are you doing? Like why this doesn't seem like the freedom that you say that you want. And there's like a mismatch between like how you're doing this and why you're doing this.

And that's what I really had to like come to terms with to be like, because I believe something about the way the world works that isn't true, that I have to decondition myself and realize that like I actually get to make all the rules. And now I have to decide what I want those rules to look like and what do I really want? And.

You know, why am I doing this and kind of like reverse engineer and deconstruct that. And so, yeah, I feel like I'm kind of both of you in a way, because I just didn't know any better. Like I just didn't know any better. And I thought that's what you did. so yeah, go ahead.

Emma Kate (11:59.987)

Mmm.

Haley Brown (12:03.096)

But this is like exactly, it took one person to change my perspective. So the last job I had in the telecommunications industry, I had a male boss and he had zero respect for me. I got pushed around. people pleased. His wife pulled me aside one day and said, you need to speak up. She's like, you are running this place, but if you don't act like a man and say, I did this.

I created this, this is mine. If you don't take ownership of that, it's all going to get ignored and he will keep taking your credit. And this is his wife. So it took me a couple of months of really practicing, but that really changed everything for me. Whereas if I didn't have this woman look out for me and be like, no, no, you did this, you created this, own it. I wouldn't have been the person I am now. And I wouldn't be helping other women do the same thing.

So it just takes that one person, that one mentor to really change that perspective. so that's shout out to Nicole. But, you know, if I can do that for one other person, I'll be stoked with what I've done with my career.

Shannon Mattern (13:17.517)

Oh my gosh. Okay, so let's talk about this because you work with women web designers and WP Mavens. I work with women web designers in the web designer academy. And I have good friends and colleagues that have programs that have both men and women in them. And they have said to me, why are you leaving 50 % of the market out of your program?

Emma Kate (13:40.533)

You

Shannon Mattern (13:44.141)

Don't your strategies apply to anyone? Couldn't anyone use the systems processes and strategies that you teach in the Web Designer Academy to run a profitable, sustainable web design business? And of course the answer is yes. And I know why I serve women web designers, but I would love to hear from you and Emma Kate, like what drives you to serve?

women web designers specifically.

Haley Brown (14:16.056)

Do you want to take this one in?

Emma Kate (14:18.799)

Sure. Yeah, I think it's everything we're sort of talking about is that women in particular, and it's not it's not all women and it is some men too. There is definitely a lot of overlap, but primarily.

women really have this people pleasing mentality, trying to be everything for everyone, undervaluing their worth, not speaking up. And it's honestly heartbreaking when I've like before even WP Mavens, I'd had like, you know, E-Core students and stuff and

just really undervaluing their skills and you know, even like in their relationships with their husbands and having to ask permission for things and stuff. And it just like, man, it boils my blood sometimes, but you know, to have, so to be able to have a community of women where we can really encourage them. Like it's, it's sorry, it's, sounds so weird. Cause it's like we're web designers. We should just be teaching web design skills, but there's so much more to it.

of just helping people with like their mindset and setting boundaries and seeing their worth. that's the biggest thing. Cause I think we've probably all seen so many web designers, particularly women, like 90 % women, 10 % men in my realm, that you see that amazing at what they do and they charge a pittance. And you're like,

What's going on? And then you'll see some other web designers that are really kind of like, yeah, not very good. And they're charging heaps. And so there's a real imbalance there of, you know, skills people have and the worth that they see, the value that they see bringing to the table. and that is definitely like more prominent among women. And so that's a huge part of why.

Emma Kate (16:13.301)

We felt that we had a real unique perspective being to women who have had success in this industry. We can really help other women with that. So that was part of the reason behind WP Mavens. And then also, I think we've all seen those Facebook groups and stuff of, you know, the code bros or the tech bros and getting talked down to. And again, there's some overlap. I have seen a lot of women as well also talk down to other people, but like that's a real,

like focus for us in WP Mavens is to make like nothing a silly question. And I'm sure like you're absolutely the same in web designer Academy. Like it's just, you can ask anything. If you've got that silly quote unquote silly question, someone else does. and it, creates a safe space, I think for a lot of women knowing it's just women there because there is that kind of fear of the tech bros code bros kind of talking down to them.

What do you think, Hailey? Do you want to add to that?

Haley Brown (17:16.01)

Yeah, I think the one thing to add that, and again, there's overlap. So, you know, feel free to come at us, but women are more emotional. It's out there. Men will tell us that. We'll say it to men. We are more emotional. So what I love about Mavens is the group is a really safe space. So people aren't just going, Hey, I'm having a trouble with this code or whatever it is. It's like, Hey, this happened.

Emma Kate (17:25.013)

you

Emma Kate (17:29.621)

Hormones.

Haley Brown (17:45.516)

And it's making me feel like crap. Like they can actually open up with their emotions and it's a safe place where they can, you would never do that in some of these groups. Like, could you imagine? But that's, I'm really proud that these women that we work with feel safe enough to do all, to share that with us. And I do coworking weekly with quite a regular group and we've had tears, we've had laughter and I just couldn't see that in another kind of.

Emma Kate (17:56.905)

you

Haley Brown (18:15.156)

mixed cohort group. I just don't feel that you would get that level of emotional safety.

Shannon Mattern (18:24.074)

Yeah, I, echo that it's not everyone. You can't say a hundred percent of, know, people are this way or aren't this way. you know, however, in my experience, very similar to, to what you're saying, there is like almost a shorthand of like, I don't have to justify the way that I'm feeling about this. I can,

I can hear someone else verbalize something that maybe I didn't realize about myself and just feel really seen and heard and valued. And it's just a really interesting experience to like have someone totally just understand your perspective, your life, where you're coming from. And you didn't even have to explain it because they just know, because they've lived it too.

Emma Kate (19:20.117)

You

Shannon Mattern (19:23.405)

and they understand that. And, you know, it's just a really powerful thing to be in the room with other people who are like, if she can do that, if she can charge that much, like, I'll try it. Like, you give each other like the courage to do that. There's just, you know, I'm like the, the, the idea that I'm leaving like half the market.

out, I'm like, that's okay with me. Everybody niches, right? Everybody chooses like, you know, who they want to serve and why they want to serve that. And they have a unique perspective and experience to add to that. And, you know, I feel like why wouldn't I, you know, take all of that experience and my times of asking questions in WordPress forums and being told like, you shouldn't even be building a website if you have to ask.

Emma Kate (20:17.909)

Thank

You

Shannon Mattern (20:20.969)

ask that question and just being like, what in the world is happening right now? Like that is ridiculous and I never want that to happen to someone else. I think having those communities is just so important because how else can you grow if it's not like growth is hard enough, right? It requires getting out of your comfort zone, doing challenging things.

And if there's threat all around you while you're doing that, that you're not growing right, or you're asking the wrong questions, like it makes it very, very hard. So I just, I, I love that you two are both so passionate and serious about creating that type of a community where people can come in and really get, ask for the support that they need and get it like.

in a very safe way. So I would love to hear the origin story of WP Mavins though. I have talked to both of you individually, but like, how did the idea come about? And then like, what were the actions that like those early actions that you took to start this thing and build it over the years?

Emma Kate (21:39.157)

I think you take that one, Hayley, because it was kind of your idea really initially.

Haley Brown (21:39.522)

I think it was, yeah, I think it was, yeah, well, this is the thing. I came to Emma with the idea, but it had been on her goals for years and she'd never told me. So it just, yeah, it had just happened so organically over time. if we go and look at my actual web design business that I still work in today, my niche is working with coaches, memberships.

Emma Kate (21:51.541)

you

Shannon Mattern (21:51.788)

see, read her mind.

Haley Brown (22:07.062)

online courses, all of that sort of stuff. So I'm building these websites for these powerful women and men I work with both who have amazing recurring revenues. And I'm like, why can't I do this for me? Like I'm doing these one-time projects and yes, I'm doing maintenance for them and getting all of that. But I'm like, I know so much about this, how the backend works. I can do this. Like it's a, it's a no brainer. and by that time Emma had already encouraged me to build a course.

She'd spent two years convincing me. So I had started that and started building my list. And I wanted to do the membership, but it's so overwhelming to think about doing it on my own. And I'm like, we have the same audience. Why don't we utilize that? We also have very similar mindsets in how, like who we want to help and how we want to help them. But at the same time, we're very different and have very different strengths and weaknesses. And they kind of balance each other out.

So for us, I think that was a no brainer. did you want to add anything?

Emma Kate (23:14.9)

I guess just that like, yes, it had been on my mind for a long time. It was kind of like I'd done the courses, I'd done the one-on-one mentoring, I'd done the other summit, the Dental Line and Boss summit, I'd done website templates, I'd done all these things. But a membership was something I really wanted to do in that I love the community aspect of courses and doing the group coaching calls and stuff. And I'd had these students that I'd had for years that are still rocking up to the coaching calls down the track.

this would be nice to have

all these women that I've now known for years and like, you know, they've started being friends and stuff and have this community. But like a lot of big things in my career, they don't happen unless I have a partner in crime. Like I need that kind of motivation. So like having like starting the summit with someone else and then starting WP Mavins with Haley like these things wouldn't have happened if

I didn't have someone else egging me on and like being accountable to because otherwise it just sits in the back of my mind for two years and I do nothing with it. So when Hailey came to me with that idea, it's like, yes, let's do it. Let's book in a day. Let's get this happening. yeah, WP Mavins was born and then out of that, that's kind of been its like own business thing. And we have the membership and then we started the summit after that.

Shannon Mattern (24:45.227)

Yeah, so I love that you know about yourself, that you're more likely to like see a project into life when you have a partner in crime to do that. And I think, you know, I was chatting with some of our students the other day and one of them asked me like, what kind of accountability do you provide for me to like bring all of my ideas through to fruition?

And I was just thinking about that and I'm like, you know, sometimes you just need that person that's going to like, I don't know, be the peanut butter cheer jelly. I know that's so cheesy, but like be that person that like, it's so fun to work with them and to like have this vision and that the two of you make something better together than either of you would have been able to do on your own.

And maybe there's nothing wrong with you if you have a lot of ideas, but you're not seeing them through to like fruition or completion. And maybe you just need like that person. And it sounds like Emma Kate, you either know that about yourself or you discovered that about yourself along the way.

Emma Kate (26:03.315)

discovered it. Yeah, I discovered it. And it's like, I think it's the ingrained people pleaser in me. Like I can't let Haley down. So this has to happen. But I think like, even if you don't have that.

you know, partner in crime. One thing I like to do is just announce that I'm doing something. So like if I announce that I'm launching this new service offering or whatever it is, stay tuned, get on the waitlist, whatever it is. It's like when it's out there, it's got to happen. So you sort of give yourself that accountability.

Shannon Mattern (26:37.675)

Yeah. And I love like, it's, kind of ties back to what you're talking about with community and how much you love that. It's like, I don't know about both of you, but back when I started, I was just like a lone wolf, anonymous in forums, trying to search my way through building this business all on my own. And

I didn't even know that there were communities out there of people doing the thing that I wanted to do. I was just like blazing my own trail, right? And doing it on my own. And it is so much more fun as I'm sure both of you can attest to like, not just with like one other person, but with a whole community of friends that you're doing this thing together with. So I would say to all of

the people who listen to this podcast. If you don't have a community that you're connected into, it will change your life. It truly will change your life. And please give yourself the gift of finding your people, whether that's, you know, just one person that you collab with or a whole community who's supporting you in ways you didn't even know you needed to be supported like WP Mavens.

and web designer Academy and my friend Josh Hall's web designer pro. And there's so many incredible, communities out there that you can like find your place, but just find one, pick one, because it's so important. so I want to circle back to the summit cause you guys started the women of web summit. and.

I'm so honored to get to speak at that. Again, it's one of my favorite events because I like that's. That's my biggest passion is the same as you helping women web designers stop undercharging over delivering and build a life that they like love, and define their own success. And so to get to speak at that is incredible. But tell me why you decided to, to start that summit and you know,

Shannon Mattern (28:48.519)

what you have learned from doing that.

Emma Kate (28:54.759)

Yeah, well, we like so I had the designer boss summit before that. I mean, I've done quite a few of those, which both of you had spoken at. And it was great, but it was very broad. It was like for all kinds of design, graphic design, branding, web design, all that stuff. And a lot of feedback that

Shannon Mattern (28:55.725)

you

Shannon Mattern (29:05.889)

Mm-hmm.

Emma Kate (29:14.933)

Haley and I had had from our, you know, core students and stuff was like, Oh, we'd love more like web design focused, more specific stuff, because there was always like edit all these summits as you know, two or three, or, you know, a handful of web design focused sessions, but to have sessions that are really specific for web designers, there wasn't, I don't, I still don't even know if there's anything out there apart from maybe page builder summit, but that's very page builder specific.

So we wanted something that was kind of like that. So that was a big focus for us and that's how it came about. Now, first time it was very like boutique. I think we only had maybe like 12, 14 speakers or something like that. So was very small. This time we've actually, I'm so happy. think we've got like 28 this time. So it's pretty packed. 23, oh, I thought it was 28, including us.

Haley Brown (30:06.606)

23.

Emma Kate (30:11.697)

okay. I'm lying. But still, it's bigger. Yeah. So yeah, really excited about that to have lots of talks from

Haley Brown (30:14.072)

close.

Shannon Mattern (30:15.629)

It's still more like a double, almost double.

Emma Kate (30:27.391)

female web designers, for female web designers on all sort of topics that we want, like even to, know, SEO and marketing strategy and stuff like that, but it is very web design specific. And Women in Web was also because we wanted to showcase women in web. A lot of the summits have...

you know, a lot of it can be very male dominant some of them, obviously, the designer boss wasn't and you're simply profitable designer summit, it's usually female dominant as well. But there is a lot of sort of male dominant summits out there. So to really showcase women in the tech industry and web was really important for us. And having that sort of safe space and a bit more of a reflection of mavens as well. So we in the summit, we like to incorporate sort

more like co-working and interaction and stuff like that so people can get a feel of what it would be like if they were to join WP Mavins as well.

Shannon Mattern (31:34.125)

I love that. And, you know, I was thinking about this because with Simply Profitable Designer Summit, you know, it's like we did the same event, like nine years in a row. And I took over the summit three years ago. And I was like, I'm starting to see us all kind of like, it got a little homogenized.

right. Like, and you know, I love speaking at summits. Anyone that asks me to speak at a summit, it's almost always a yes. And, but then it's like, if it's simply profitable, it's like, it's all the same topics and all of the things. And I love that, that you have this really specific, niche and mission that like so brilliantly also ties directly to.

the membership, like let's give people a real taste of what it looks like to be in community with us, to have the support, to, experience this vibe of, of this summit. And I just think it's, it's such a gift to people attending. Like they're getting so much value and just really feeling seen by a scene and understood by all of your speakers in a way that.

Like you said, maybe they'll learn some things, but not from the perspective of how can this help you overcome some of the biggest obstacles we see women web designers face. They're not maybe getting that perspective in other places. And I know I particularly love coming to speak at that because I can really lean into those types of things in my presentation to be like,

this helps you overcome imposter syndrome. This helps you overcome the people pleasing. This strategy helps you with this, where I still say those things in all of those other summits, but, cause I know who I'm calling in, but I love that you are not just featuring women in the web design space, but also really just creating this experience for women to just come in, like be in the spotlight in an industry where typically

Shannon Mattern (33:50.475)

we are, I don't even want to say, I don't think we are an afterthought, but sometimes it does kind of feel like we're an afterthought in a lot of those other rooms. I just had the opportunity to speak at a conference and I was the only woman speaker. And I think that there was another one that was supposed to speak and she had to cancel, but, and that wasn't like intentional by any means, but that's just kind of how it ends up happening, right? And so,

Emma Kate (34:17.876)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (34:19.841)

We need to create more spaces like that where we're there. And I love that you guys are doing that.

Haley Brown (34:29.324)

The other part of it is I, sorry, Shannon. the other part of it is I hope it encourages other female designers to start speaking more and stepping out. I'm speaking at a word camp next month and they're starting to announce the lineup. I'm the only female so far that's been announced. So there are so many in our group that are coming and I've encouraged a few to, I'd encouraged a few to apply. Actually, no, I know of one, but she hasn't been announced yet.

Shannon Mattern (34:31.786)

No, please go.

Shannon Mattern (34:43.309)

Mm.

Haley Brown (34:57.538)

So there's definitely, I mean, there's going to be more, but if you look, say they've announced six and there's only one female, I have a feeling it's going to be quite male driven, this event. And they can only choose from what they get given, right? Events like this encourage women to step out of their comfort zone and start speaking and start even, it's not even about speaking. It encourages them. It's okay to have the same price as someone else in the industry. It's okay to.

Emma Kate (35:12.18)

Mm.

Shannon Mattern (35:12.333)

Yeah.

Haley Brown (35:26.478)

put your face on your website. Like if it gives them that little bit of extra confidence, then great.

Shannon Mattern (35:32.781)

Okay, can I just say that when you said you were speaking at a WordCamp, my chest got like tight. I was like, ooh, that sounds scary to me. And I think I just had the realization that it ties back to the early days of how I was treated in WordPress forums. And I, it made.

I didn't realize this until now because I haven't really participated. WordPress is my thing, but I don't design or teach design skills anymore. I just teach business. And I had considered going to word camps and I want to do more speaking and things like that, but to speak at a word camp made me think like, ooh, that doesn't feel safe, which is really interesting.

Haley Brown (36:24.782)

No, it so is. It really is. WordCamp is where Emma and I were kind of like, we went to a local one and we loved it. We were obsessed. And by the time I went to my second one in another state, I was speaking. I'm like, I want to do this. And as a speaker, it changes the whole, your whole experience. You don't have to worry about going up and introducing yourself. Everyone just comes to you. It's really easy. It's very tiring, obviously, being an introvert and having to...

Shannon Mattern (36:41.013)

Okay.

Haley Brown (36:54.754)

to do that, but I find the WordCamp community very supportive. I've only ever had one question after a talk that was a little bit negative and it actually came from another woman. So again, it's not all men that have, you know, kind of difficulty accepting that there are more than one way to do things. But...

Shannon Mattern (37:19.917)

Sure.

Haley Brown (37:23.688)

Overall, the experience is really positive and I highly encourage you to go do it.

Shannon Mattern (37:29.343)

It's so interesting. Like I just never realized that I, that that was something that was like happening in, in my mind that I would like, here's an audience of web designers where women like us are underrepresented that I could go and like add value and speak and give back. But that I never connected the dots that that is why that always felt like.

I didn't even, like I've never gone to one to have a bad experience there. I just was like, I went immediately into self-protective mode, which is an interesting thing that people do that we don't realize we do it. And that's why it's so important to be in community with people like you who have these conversations so that we can like have these, you know, mind blowing moments.

Emma Kate (38:05.717)

you

Shannon Mattern (38:24.149)

and be encouraged to do something that maybe scared us for a reason that is no longer valid in our current like situation or circumstance. So I'll let you know when I apply to speak at one and I'll definitely be thinking of you when I go to do that. So.

One of the other things that I wanted to chat with both of you about, since you are so plugged in to what's going on in the web design space and what's working and what's not working and what people are trying and trends is like, what are some of the shifts or trends or things that you're seeing happening with your students in terms of like their businesses and.

getting clients and pricing or are there any anything that like comes to mind that you're that you're seeing as like, this is kind of different since the last time we talked in episode six and 46.

Emma Kate (39:31.433)

Yeah. Well, from my perspective, I feel like AI and chat TPT, I don't even know if they were out when we probably spoke in episode six. So that's definitely, that's like a huge shift in the whole universe really. But definitely in web design as well. I think I'm sure you've probably experienced this too in your community Shannon, where there's a lot of designers that are fearful of it. See it as a threat.

Shannon Mattern (39:40.692)

No, they weren't.

Emma Kate (40:01.871)

And because of that, kind of, they drop the ball on it. get behind, what is it behind the eight ball, behind the curve, like they, kind of a little bit behind and the designers that have embraced it and started using it have really transformed their businesses to the point where they're like, we've noticed a lot of our members are offering new services that they wouldn't have otherwise offered.

We have a member who creates custom branded imagery and stuff that she generates through mid journey has now switched recently to chat GPT's image generation thinking it's finding it better So that's a whole offering that she otherwise wouldn't have had a couple years ago Or even you know a year or so ago when the image generation wasn't so good. We also have like another member who

created her own custom GPTs that she now sells for like strategy and copywriting and can create those. She sells them to other web designers. Shout out to Nikki, Nikki Hamilton. She's created these amazing GPT custom GPTs where you can get a client to fill out all their, you know, brief form with all their sort of details and stuff. And then it can spit out a strategy and they have all their website copywriting for you.

So she's created a whole offering there, but also allowed other web designers to have this as an offering in their business. And they're incredible. But even if you don't buy those, can really, you could create your own custom GPT to do that. You can just like wing it with chat GPT and sort of figure it out and create this amazing SEO rich copywriting for your clients that you wouldn't otherwise be able to do. So we're really seeing that shift in

There is being this gap and I really encourage anyone who is fearful of AI to really try to learn more about it and see how it can help your business and add to it because this gap is only going to get bigger. And there's this saying like, you know, AI is going to come for your job. I really feel like in our industry, it's the web designers who know AI that are coming for your job. So if you don't

Emma Kate (42:25.437)

start embracing AI, then all those other web designers out there that are, they're the ones that are going to be taking over your job because they're going to be able to do it faster, better, like more efficiently and potentially like they could charge more, but they could also charge less because they're not spending as much time. So I really encourage people to sort of look into that and see how it can benefit your business because that's a huge shift that I'm seeing.

Shannon Mattern (42:54.229)

Yeah, so good. Haley, what about you?

Haley Brown (42:57.896)

I agree. It takes me a lot longer to accept things than Emma. Emma's like, Ooh, shiny, shiny tool, shiny object. And she's all over it. And quite often she'll send me something. I'm like, I've already got something that does that. I don't want to look at it. So I kind of dig my, I'm the one who will dig her head in the sand a little bit, but once I embrace something I'm obsessed. So for me, AI has changed because I value my time so much.

Emma Kate (43:05.245)

I'm

Haley Brown (43:24.008)

That's what has changed for me. I'm able to do more work in less time. And I think if you can, you don't even like Emma said, build it. It's not that hard. I built a GPT yesterday that I actually built from my course students that will help them spit out a case study as soon as they finish a project, because that's something that always gets set on our to-do list. People don't have their portfolio and then coming soon because it's too hard to deal with the content. You feed some information in and it'll spit it out for you.

Like to be able to have that, it's a game changer. I just, yeah. We've seen another member, so on the back of Nikki's GPT, another member of ours whose, niche is working with authors. So she builds book websites and author websites and she works part-time for a publisher. She's created a custom GPT that will write all the additional content for the book. So like,

all the publicity marketing materials that take forever and need so much privilege. She systemized that and they're selling that to authors and publishers, which is crazy. Like in that kind of industry, they're starting to embrace that when it's so important that books are written authentically and not through chat GPT. yeah, I think there's definitely.

been a massive shift and if someone like me can embrace it, I think everyone can. But I, on the back of the, it's not coming for your job. Emma said very early on, crap in, crap out. And that's still true today. AI will never be able to replicate the best copy, the best content, the best ideas without good quality input. It's as simple as that, which is where we come in.

Shannon Mattern (45:15.903)

I love that sentiment so much because I think, you know, I do hear like the fear side of like, this is gonna take over the world, but I don't hear that so much from web designers specifically. What I hear is it feels like cheating. I shouldn't be able to charge as much if I'm using AI to do work for me, which I'm like, this is a actual core issue.

beyond like using AI, you probably feel like you're cheating if you outsource this work and hire someone to do it for you. So you have a thing about like having to, your value comes from you being the one pushing the buttons, not being the one like that, like is the strategist and you know, all of that. So I think that there's, there's pieces, there's a lot of mindset stuff sometimes that has to come.

If you are feeling some type of way about using AI, that you're out of integrity, that whatever. And so I think again, just to come back to it's so important to be in the room with people who are experimenting and exploring and being the trailblazers. So, you know, to be in the room with the emicates of the world who are like, Ooh, shiny new thing. Let me check it out. Let me see if it's worth you checking out.

Emma Kate (46:43.559)

you

Shannon Mattern (46:45.209)

And I'm going to hang back with Haley and wait for the dust to settle and you know, what rises to the top. And then I value my time so much too, that I'm like, I'm not going to necessarily put my time into like playing, but once you find the best toy, I'm all in and I want to use it to save as much time as possible. And so I think that there's, it's all kind of wrapped up in, you know,

If I'm spending less time putting less of my mental capacity into this, is it worth less? Absolutely not. can still, like you said, Haley, garbage in, garbage out. You need to be the driver of this. You need to be the strategist. There are certain things that you need to lead your AI to do for you, but the opportunities are just...

bananas and you need to like see what other people are doing with it. Like just even see what other people are doing with it. Like blows my mind. I'm like, wait, you did what? And for me, that's where, where that's our next thing with web designer Academy too, is to really like, shortcut with AI, a lot of the things that maybe we're like having people like just even helping people make decisions.

Emma Kate (47:54.869)

you

Shannon Mattern (48:12.415)

Right. About like, can we create a GPT to like help you think through this decision that is like vexing you or to make the proposal process go faster or to help you set a boundary that you feel weird about. Like there's so many opportunities and I don't feel like it's cheating at all. I'm like, I have like a little collaborator, like a partner, like a writing partner, that I can like bounce ideas off of. So,

Yeah. What are some of the other like money mindset pricing things that you all are seeing, that you're constantly coaching your students on?

Haley Brown (48:54.038)

At the moment, for me, with the women that I'm working with, it's encouraging them not to discount their prices. There's no, everyone in the economy is scared. Like people are very careful with their money. They still have money and they're still spending, but they're just a lot more careful about where they are spending or so it's, it's harder to get that yes, or their budgets are lower, but it doesn't mean they're

expectations haven't lowered either. So that's something I'm trying to encourage the women is don't discount, adjust your offer or adjust your services. So for me right now, I'm not booking $10,000 projects. I am booking those website in a week where we're maybe getting a website and a single sales page up so that they can start bringing in more money so that then I can go and build them out the course.

section or the membership or whatever. So we're kind of staging out projects. And I think we had a conversation last week in coworking where someone's like, well, I don't think they're going to accept this, what they need. And I'm like, we'll get them a one pager, get them some income coming in. You start thinking like that, like a strategist, it's a no brainer for them to come back to you when they do have the budget.

Shannon Mattern (50:10.893)

So good. What about you, Amakate?

Emma Kate (50:14.751)

Sorry, I just had to mute because my dogs went off. We have a plumber here. Sorry about that. I think one thing I noticed is a lot of, and I'm the same when I started.

Shannon Mattern (50:20.363)

That's okay.

Emma Kate (50:29.871)

not thinking about recurring revenue and just thinking about winning those projects and not thinking about like long term those little bits of recurring revenue that you can get. And I'm seeing a real focus for a lot of our members of building that.

recurring revenue stream, whether that's website care plans or hosting, offering hosting, even like ongoing kind of like retainer SEO marketing, blogging packages, those kinds of things, whatever sort of is your jam.

having a focus on that, because it's not the sexy stuff. It's not creating a beautiful new website. It's kind of like the, you know, our hosting website care plan is not very sexy, but it is, it turns into some consistent revenue, especially in these times, like Haley was saying, where like, you know, the economy changes and things feel a little bit harder to have that.

recurring revenue of small amounts when people aren't spending, you know, big bucks on a new website can be really valuable. So I'm definitely seeing people focus on that more and even earlier on in their careers, which is amazing because it's not something that I did for years and years of being into my web design career. And I wish I had done it sooner because then I'd have a lot more hosting clients and a lot more website maintenance clients.

Shannon Mattern (51:54.485)

I love it. And I think, like we had a whole summit on the topic of recurring revenue. So it's definitely a, an opportunity for a lot of, people and to really like structure in a way that still gives you that freedom that you don't feel like, I've built this thing that now I'm trapped by, because you set up a model that doesn't work with how you really want to live your life. I can't believe we've been talking for almost an hour. I could talk to both of you like,

all the time forever. have such, we share such common values and passions for supporting women web designers. But tell me, Haley, where can everyone go to learn more about WP Mavens? And then I'll have Emma share where everyone can go to learn more about the Women of Web Summit.

Haley Brown (52:48.49)

So WPMavens.co is our website. Just jump on all the infos there. We're not amazingly active on social media. So the best place, if you have questions, the best place is to email us or with the contact on the website.

Shannon Mattern (53:02.433)

I love it when people say that, because I'm like, me either. So there you go. I think that's becoming more more common. Yeah, Emma Kate, where can everyone go to learn more about the Women of Web Summit?

Emma Kate (53:11.048)

Yeah, and so

Emma Kate (53:16.031)

So again, at wpmavens.co, if you just click on Summit in the top banner, that's where all the information will be about the Summit. When you're listening to this podcast, if you're listening to it just as Shannon releases it, then free tickets will be on sale. So if you go there, get your free ticket, you can see the lineup. Talking about not being good on socials, we actually have an amazing speaker, Meg Casebolt.

who is speaking at the Women of Web Summit and she's all about the social slowdown. I'm halfway through her book right now and it's all about finding clients without social media and

reading the book, I'm just like, there are so many things in there that I wish I had have heard long ago. So that's just one of the talks that we sort of have there. But we've got like Hailey said, 23 speakers on all topics from like SEO, web design process, web design tips.

WordPress specific stuff. I'm tossing up actually what I'm going to do right now, but I think it'll be on white labeling. So that's one. So we have a lot, obviously Shannon's going to be there as well. So yeah, we have a lot of topics, very specific for web designers. It's completely free. Get your free ticket. There's an optional upgrade to a swag bag that everyone has, all the speakers have generously provided some awesome resources to go in there. That last tally, I think it was,

worth over two and a half thousand Australian dollars. So it's going to be hugely valuable or web design specific, but that's totally optional. You can still come attend the speak there, all the presentations and the Q and a sessions for free. So come get your free ticket at WP Maidens.co.

Shannon Mattern (55:06.057)

Amazing. And I'm going to toot my own horn because my presentation is one that I really haven't done publicly anywhere else ever. I've done it at a couple small private events, but I'm talking about our anchor high strategy that we teach inside of the web designer academy. And my swag bag contribution is so good. Like it's our whole, it's all of our

Emma Kate (55:30.549)

You

Shannon Mattern (55:33.971)

modules on how to transform your pricing mindset and sell yourself on your value and why you can like, why you really can charge more than you think you can. And so you are definitely going to want to get your free ticket. And I think the link that I'm going to set up for my referral link will be webdesigneracademy.com forward slash wow, W O W for women of web.

So you can also go there and it'll be set up by the time this podcast episode goes live with my link to get your ticket. So I hope to see you all at the summit. It's gonna be an amazing time. And Haley and Emma Kate, thank you so, much for being here.

Haley Brown (56:25.944)

Thank you for having us. It's always a pleasure.

Emma Kate (56:29.077)

Thank you.

Shannon Mattern (56:30.057)

All right, we'll see you all back here next week, everyone. Bye.