#163 – What Happens When You Finally Ask for Help in Your Web Design Business with Jenelle Rawlins

Shannon Mattern (00:01.218)

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Profitable Web Designer podcast. Today I am joined by one of our Web Designer Academy students, Janelle Rawlins. Janelle, I'm so excited to have you on the show. Welcome.

Jenelle (00:14.814)

Me too. Thank you, Shannon. I'm super excited to be here with you.

Shannon Mattern (00:19.31)

Yeah. So I wanted to invite you on because you just recently completed one year in the web designer Academy program, and you had a lot of good wins. You overcame a lot of challenges. We're talking about like, what's next for you and where you want to go. And so I was like, I would love to just have you on the show to talk about like what that journey has looked like for you. And, know, just let

our listeners understand like what it, what it looks like to come into this program and, like a lean on us to help you as you, as you like go through this process of building your own business. So before we dive into all of that, I would love for you to just share a little bit about your journey to the decision to start your own web design business.

Jenelle (01:13.856)

Okay, so I feel like my story is a little different than most of the women in the WDA fam because I kind of started my business and then almost immediately joined Web Designer Academy, which isn't the case for most people. So I had been a teacher for 16 years and I loved it, but I kind of had one foot out the door. I knew I was going to have a career change. I knew I just like

couldn't do it for another 14 years to retirement. So I kind of had one ear open to what might be a cool second career. I knew that I had a talent for design and I wanted to do something creative. I knew I wanted to work from home. So I had taken a couple little courses with that, taught myself web design. I built my website. I landed a handful of clients right away from my personal network.

And then I was instantly overwhelmed and then a month later joined Web Designer Academy.

Shannon Mattern (02:17.046)

I love that like trajectory of, know, I taught myself design. I got a handful of clients and then I, you know, found the program and joined and, you're right. You're not like most of our students. Sometimes like first of all, a lot of people just don't even know that coaching is available to them in terms of like, there's actually someone out there who can help me.

Jenelle (02:39.232)

Bye.

Shannon Mattern (02:43.766)

Like grow my web design business. I certainly didn't even know business coaching was a thing when I started my business. so, but you are different in terms of like, you're just, you found us and then you enrolled. What was your philosophy, that drove you to just like take the leap and come to work with us.

Jenelle (03:07.71)

Yeah, so I felt like so as a teacher, I paid out of pocket for my master's degree, right? Because I wanted that bump in my income. I wanted to increase my skills. So I really just looked at it like that. I thought this is my career now. And if I'm serious about being successful, you know, if I'm going to do something, I want to do it right. And so I felt like, of course, I need to invest in.

some kind of courses or coaching or what have you. And I remember I had said to my husband, you know, I was saying like, I think I want to join this. And he said, well, how do you know that you even need a coach? You haven't even tried to do it by yourself. You know, maybe, but I knew, I don't even know what I don't know. And I knew that one way to do it is the hard way to learn all the lessons, the hard way and to make the mistakes and to maybe get myself into

bad habits and things that then I would have to unlearn and undo. Or Web Designer Academy looked like this golden path of like, here's Shannon. And I had listened to a bunch of your podcasts and the private student podcast or the, so I had heard your coaching and I just, felt like, I felt very called to it. I felt like I want to do this new career the right way. And the right way is to start off on the right foot with

Shannon Mattern (04:17.378)

Mm-hmm.

Jenelle (04:32.628)

the foundation, the systems, the processes, the templates, the community, the coach to kind of like be there to guide me through.

Shannon Mattern (04:43.999)

You know, it's so interesting you said that your husband was like, well, how do you know you even need a coach? You've never tried to do it yourself. and like that was my philosophy for myself in the early stages of my business. Like, I can just like look at what other people are doing. I'm smart. can figure it out. And like, I don't, I don't think I need a coach. did not see so many of my own,

Jenelle (05:02.805)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (05:13.373)

so many of my own blind spots. I didn't, I didn't know what I didn't know. And I really did take the long way and I'm not knocking myself because I learned a lot from that process. But I learned the hard way and the long way. this is hilarious. My dog never like

find squeaky toys and she just like found the one toy that's still alive as we call it and like grabbed it and just ran in here and started squeaking it. So I don't know if, my gosh, it's so funny. Yes, no, that was Scarlett chewing on her stuffed alligator, like trying to get my attention. So, but so I was that person that's just like, I don't think I need a coach. I'm pretty smart.

Jenelle (05:43.904)

Jenelle (05:49.618)

It sounded like a hamster on a hamster wheel.

Jenelle (05:55.849)

Bye.

Shannon Mattern (06:06.795)

I can figure this out on my own. And yeah, I figured out a lot of things on my own. And also it took me forever to figure them out on my own. And so I loved how you contemplated both paths and you're like, why would I not give myself the best shot at success? And then when I finally did,

like get to the point where I'm like, actually I keep banging my head against the wall. I'm experiencing like the same problem over and over and over again. And I decided to hire a coach. My husband was like, yeah, like, please go do that. Cause I'm like tired of watching you struggle.

Jenelle (06:52.382)

Yeah. Now, I'm just like, well, Shannon said I should do this instead of talking to my husband. What do you think I should do? And he doesn't know, you know?

Shannon Mattern (07:00.461)

Yeah, right. So you you mentioned our private student podcast. So we have an archive of over 300 coaching calls now and we sell it as a subscription. And I love that you just went and like checked that out to see if we resonated with you. Is that like, was that your reasoning behind like, you know, before I make this big commitment, I want to see like, what's even going on in there.

Jenelle (07:14.048)

Mm-hmm.

Jenelle (07:30.206)

Yeah, and I think I really love podcasts as a way of, think it's the best way to feel like you're, can really get to know someone. It's not like following someone on Instagram or whatever, where everything is so micro and curated and everything kind of sounds the same on social media now anyway with AI. And so I feel like with podcasts, you can't really fake it. And, I love that long form content anyway. So

Shannon Mattern (07:45.579)

Yeah.

Jenelle (07:58.624)

you know, let me just like listen to you for hours. And then I already felt like I knew you and you know, I just trusted you. You give great advice, Shannon. And you're still pulling at, the, was, and it was always about mindset. and the other thing I did was the archetypes. that really put me on the path of, had initially thought I had this very fixed idea of what a successful web design business.

Shannon Mattern (08:01.357)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (08:09.729)

Well, thank you.

Jenelle (08:27.121)

would be and like should look like. And like a couple of my early mentors were very much in like the VIP day format. And so I felt like I have to get I have to be fast. I have to be faster. I should be able to build and deliver a website in a day or two. Right. And so the archetypes quiz and then the subsequent work that I've done in WDA, that was one of my first big mind shifts was actually

My business doesn't have to look like anyone else's. Maybe what's special about me is that I really take my time and I, not that other people don't care about details, but the way that I work is unique to me and I get to build my business to fit my personality and my style and the value that I offer to clients is maybe different than the value that someone else offers. And there's someone for everyone.

Shannon Mattern (09:23.455)

I love that perspective so much. Like, you know, when we try to fit ourselves into a box and we are, it doesn't feel good. It's hard to want to keep doing the work that it takes to grow a business when it's just like a constant like misalignment with who, who you really are and like what you're, what you're creating. And so one of the things that I love about

Jenelle (09:33.003)

Well.

Shannon Mattern (09:52.074)

you so much is that you are so honest and transparent about like, Hey, I need support. Hey, I'm running into this challenge. Hey, I thought it should look this way. It's looking this way. Can you help me see what I'm not seeing? Tell me about like some, you know, you joined a year ago, you have really big goals for yourself.

Tell me about some of like the earliest challenges that you recall like running into and you know, how you navigated those or how you recall like us navigating those together. Cause it's not just like, I joined the web designer academy and magically like everything changes overnight and it all just starts like clicking into place. There's like things that we go through.

on the journey. So I'm curious about like some of the early ones that stand out to you.

Jenelle (10:49.245)

Yeah, so one of the first ones that comes to mind was sort of redefining my schedule, because one of my very early projects was a client in Australia. And at the time, I had thought, how exotic I have clients all over the world, go me. And then of course, that meant I was having Zoom meetings with this client at 8pm for me. And then quickly I saw, well, this isn't

Shannon Mattern (10:58.699)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (11:13.739)

Yeah.

Jenelle (11:17.845)

the vision that I had for my business and for my life. So going through the module on kind of like setting up a block schedule, really being intentional about, and I also had, I was wide open seven days a week for anyone who ever wanted to meet with me. was, I wanted to be so accommodating. And I thought that that's how I had to be for people to book consultations with me and to want to work with me. So, so what are my

kind of quick early wins was defining my schedule, putting boundaries and parameters around it, saying I'm only open for consultations on Tuesdays and Thursdays for a three hour chunk of time. And I've reduced that now down to just Tuesdays. And so that helped me. That was kind of like a quick win. And then the next big thing that I really needed help with was pricing, of course, as so many of us do. And I had done the old

you know, someone would tell me about the project and then I would give them a quote. And so their option was yes or no. Do you want to work with Veeam? And then of course with Patrick, with our matrix pricing strategy, now I get to say we could do this or we could do this or we could do this. And the client gets to choose. So now there's three opportunities for them to say yes. So that was, that was a huge piece that, mean, like since I implemented that has opened up

so much more revenue for me because there are clients who want to invest at a higher level and who are willing to spend that. And if you never even offer that, if that's not even on the table, sorry now my doorbell is ringing. My dog is a big bark.

Shannon Mattern (12:58.839)

I love it. This is the dog episode. We always say at dogs, babies and doorbells are welcome in our program and on our podcasts because it's just life, right? Who knows? Maybe we will, maybe we won't. It might be in, we'll see. Scarlet chewing her chew toy and, and.

Jenelle (13:07.167)

RRRR

And I'm sure you'll edit this out, right?

Jenelle (13:15.169)

My job works like once a day and you're getting the one time. Anyway, so implementing the Patrick package matrix was huge. And then like my mindset with my pricing, it was very much leftover from teaching because as a teacher, you get a little like

Shannon Mattern (13:23.157)

Yep. Yep.

Jenelle (13:43.683)

maybe 5 % raise every single year forever and ever and ever. And all you have to do is just stay in it. I had early in WDA, I made a chart and I said, this is what I'm charging now and this is what I want to be charging a year from now. And I very mathematically like bumped it up at whatever percentage every single month to month. And I sent it into Erica and she kind of very lovingly was like,

Shannon Mattern (13:45.915)

Yeah

Jenelle (14:11.666)

is very nice, you know, but like, what if you charged these higher prices much sooner? And I thought that what I charged had to be tied to my, like the time I had put in, I thought, well, I'm new, so I can't charge higher prices yet. And it really took me several projects, several reps with clients for me to believe in my own value and to see,

just like what I could provide, the transformation that I could give someone in their business and their confidence with a new website and new branding. And I really started to see the value in it. And then I realized I don't have to, I can charge my worth and what I know that I can provide for my clients.

Shannon Mattern (15:05.794)

I love that shift from I'm new, so I can't charge that much, which is like, the money and the value is tied to me and my experience and how faster, know, how complex this is to the transformation that your clients have. And I know I can say this to people.

like when they're brand new to say, you know, just because you haven't been doing this that long doesn't mean that it's not worth a lot more than what you're charging. And sometimes we just have to have the experience of like experiencing it to have it really internalize because that's one of the things that's just one of my, my huge things. It's like,

It's not about, how long, how many you've done, how long you've been doing it. It's about what the person on the other side can create as a result of working with you. And there is a gap in like confidence that we, that we need to, you know, fill in, in terms of like, kind of tying back to what you said at the beginning. Like I didn't know what I didn't know. And you probably brought that into like, with this website project. Well, what if there's something I missed?

What if I didn't know what I didn't know? And, but then you realize like, Oh, I don't have to know every single thing. You're you're, you know, how to ask the right questions, you know, and you know, how to figure out what you need to know so that you can fill the gaps in the project. You don't need to know all of it ahead of time. You just need to know the right questions.

Jenelle (16:41.622)

Mm-hmm.

Jenelle (16:53.634)

Right. Yeah, and knowing one of my first go-to's is always our Circle community. If it's even something tech or just a recommendation for a plugin, I have these over 100 wonderful, generous women in our group who, like, there's just such a wealth of knowledge and it's just...

Shannon Mattern (16:56.129)

So good.

Shannon Mattern (17:03.084)

Mm-hmm.

Jenelle (17:18.56)

the group of the kindest, most wonderful, most generous. It's the room that you want to be in, truly.

Shannon Mattern (17:25.665)

think of it as I remember my first job out of college. I worked in the marketing department at a law firm. I didn't love working at a law firm, but I loved working with those women. were we had a blast every single day. They were so fun. And I remember like my job before that in college, I worked at a coffee shop with like I still those women are my best friends. Now we still get together 25 years later once a month for dinner.

And that's what the web designer Academy community feels like to me is like having the best coworkers in the world who you know, you can like get up from your desk, walk over and be like, Hey, I'm having this problem. Can you help me out? And they're like, yeah, let me stop what I'm doing and like walk you through it. And then they're just, they're all there. One of the things that I delights me to no end is.

Jenelle (18:03.97)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (18:22.987)

And I think, I don't know if you started it, but a few of you started it. You're like, Hey, I'm doing coworking. Do you want to come? You started that, didn't you?

Jenelle (18:30.381)

Yeah. think Danielle did. I've posted. Yes. Yeah. try to go as much as I can though because I was just there this morning actually.

Shannon Mattern (18:36.097)

Danielle, okay, Danielle's another one of our students.

Shannon Mattern (18:45.193)

Yeah, so like this is not even like a WGA sponsored thing. Like it's not Web Designer Academy run, but our community likes each other so much that they wanted to spend more time together, hanging out and working and create some accountability like within, like for themselves to like do certain things. like, so they set up their own.

Jenelle (18:58.221)

for you.

Shannon Mattern (19:09.901)

co-working and someone will just post in the community like, hey, my Zoom rooms open, come hang out. And I'm just like, this delights me to no end. I've been in other programs where there's rules against that happening. And I'm like, why would you ever try to not allow people to have their own, build their own relationships and all of that stuff? and yeah, but I've just, it's so awesome that you all do that. I think it's so cool.

Jenelle (19:32.522)

Yarrrr

Jenelle (19:40.236)

And there's so much even that you don't even get to see that's behind the scenes of like we're sending each other looms when we need help. And so many times members of our community have been like, Hey, do you want to just jump on a zoom when like I needed help figuring something out or we're emailing and messaging each other to check on each other. It's just, it's the warmest bath.

Shannon Mattern (19:44.461)

you

Jenelle (20:05.717)

support network. this is something I had put in that form about an early challenge. The first time and only time knock on wood that I broke a client's email and I was literally shaking and this client was a lawyer and you know, like he wasn't even a criminal lawyer, but in my head I thought I have broken his email.

Shannon Mattern (20:19.466)

Yeah.

Jenelle (20:27.223)

And what if his client right now is email it trying to email him some critical piece of evidence for this case and now someone's going to go to jail because of me. I mean, I catastrophized the heck out of that scenario. So I'm like shaking as I'm typing my post. I don't know what I did wrong, but you know, and I had tried to be so careful not to break his email. And just I was wrapped in the warmest hug. So many and I mean within an hour, like

Shannon Mattern (20:32.076)

You

Shannon Mattern (20:37.772)

You

Jenelle (20:56.629)

everyone had was not only saying like here you can try this like put these MX records and like actual help technical help but also so many people saying like I've been there I've been there I've done that I've done that and now I know it's almost like a rite of passage like it's just bound to happen at some point and you know it was not the end of the world and but that was such a if I was not in this community and that had happened

I would have been crying, I would have been Googling, I would have been on chat GBT, which is what led me down the wrong path in the first place. So like that was such a moment where I was so grateful for our community.

Shannon Mattern (21:40.205)

And one of the things that I also love about you is you're so willing to just go in there and ask for whatever you need. And you're also right there to support everybody who needs something. And your birthday poems are also a delight. Janelle writes the best birthday poems for people in our community. I want to talk about being willing to ask for support.

Jenelle (21:56.131)

haha

Shannon Mattern (22:10.124)

I, it's not natural to everybody. It seems like it's very natural to you. Is that a fair statement?

Jenelle (22:16.331)

Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (22:19.648)

Does that come from like just being a teacher? Like where does that? Where do you think that comes from your teaching background or?

Jenelle (22:24.981)

I think it must. I think it must because you say every single coaching call you remind us your questions are a gift. And that was as when I was a teacher that was so important to me to convey to my students like there are no dumb questions and you know if you're asking a question.

there's probably five other people in the room that have the same question but are too shy to ask or they might not even know that they have that same question. So I think that's very naturally ingrained in me. And credit to you because you are, for people who maybe that isn't a natural feeling, you are always saying thank you for your question. That's such a great question. Your questions are a gift. And that was one of the...

big tenets of when I signed up, was somewhere in some of your, early literature, the contract or something that said, Hey, there are no dumb questions in this group. Like that's one of our, you know, our big, pillars of this community. So.

Shannon Mattern (23:32.087)

Yeah. And like, there's something that I see happening where people are like, I don't want to take too much time. They're like, I don't want to ask a question. I don't want to take too much time. And I'm like, please take the time because you're asking for 10 other people. So you're saving everybody time, even if we spend a whole lot of time on your question. And also I had early experiences trying to use the internet to learn things back in the two thousands and going into forums and

Jenelle (23:51.811)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (24:02.51)

like the way people treat each other online in certain spaces is terrible. And I was treated horribly and I'm like, this is not okay. And this will, there are no stupid questions. And, you know, I think that that's another thing that holds people back thinking, well, I need to just figure this all out on my own.

And not ask for help because the risk, if I raise my hand and I say something stupid and the rest of the class is like laughing at me, then that's like my worst fear come true. And that is just never going to be. I have never had to throw anybody out of this current community that we're in. have in past communities where I've had to remove people for, being.

whatever, being a giant jerk. but I haven't had to do that in the web designer Academy, but I know how to do it and I will do it. And it's not, you know, it's not, we just have a zero tolerance policy for treating people poorly. And the other part of it is that like, please take the time, like, please give yourself the time and the support because you overcome.

Jenelle (25:10.977)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (25:24.236)

You make progress so much faster when you're willing to like just get it off your chest even.

Jenelle (25:32.204)

Yeah, for sure.

Shannon Mattern (25:33.933)

So what are some of the things there? I'm sure there were times where there were like valleys where you're like, I don't even know if this is gonna work. Like we've all had those days where we're doubting. Like, do you recall any of those moments where you're just like, I don't know. I don't know if this is gonna like pan out for me or have you had like a pretty positive?

Jenelle (25:46.36)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (26:02.762)

outlook the whole time.

Jenelle (26:05.444)

Um, I tend, I'm an optimist, so I tend to be pretty positive most of the time. Where, where I do struggle is with overworking and, uh, I've been, I've, I was going to say fortunate, but a lot of it is opportunities I've created thanks to implementing your marketing strategies. So as a result, I have created a lot of opportunities for myself. So I've had consistent work this whole last year.

Shannon Mattern (26:15.892)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (26:25.65)

I

Jenelle (26:34.74)

so I haven't felt like, I'm not going to be successful in my business, but I have thought I might work myself into the ground doing this business because like I tend to over deliver. it's hard for me to kind of stop and say, this is good enough and, kind of, and move on. So that's something that I'm still mindset that I'm.

Shannon Mattern (26:46.087)

huh.

Shannon Mattern (27:01.451)

Yeah.

Jenelle (27:01.998)

still getting help with and talking to you about and talking to Erica about and like something that Erica that stays in my mind that she had said early on is, hey, it's okay to present version one to a client. And I had mind trash from previous from before WDA that whatever I first present should really be perfect and my client should just love it. And if they don't,

that I used to take it personally. And now, and part of this is with experience too, I really see that the design, it's always a collaboration and I'm leading the client through the process. And I'm the expert in design and some things, but they're the expert in their business and themselves and like their vision, right? And also seeing the process of you and Erica going through your rebranding.

Shannon Mattern (28:02.294)

Yeah.

Jenelle (28:02.69)

That blew my mind that the first concept she presented to you it was it was not the one and I thought my gosh if Erica can you know Present something to Shannon and and of course you guys know each other so well and work so closely together so That really just helped me that helped solidify for me like hey a concept is just a concept

Shannon Mattern (28:09.963)

Yeah.

Jenelle (28:27.812)

And for me, had to learn don't invest 20 hours into the first concept because it might not be the one. So, you know, that, was all really helpful. And now I think I'm in, I'm in a much better mental space of, like we can always tweak things. If this concept isn't the one we can start over with something new. And hearing your side of that, where you shared that you felt your own sort of, um, just like,

unsettled or bad about like telling Erica that you didn't love that first concept. That helped me really empathize with my clients and how they must feel. So now I come from a place of like wanting to really reassure them that this is a collaboration and you can always give me your feedback. And that means that you trust me to take your feedback and to keep iterating. So

Shannon Mattern (29:18.7)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (29:22.02)

Building that trust is so huge and just kind of even going back to the beginning of what you said, it's like there are still challenges that come with success. are, there are, like I talk about the web designer academy, like we,

help you create success. also help you deal with the problems that come with success. Because there's like a couple of phases of the journey where it's like, I'm unsure how much I can really charge. And I'm not entirely sure where to find all of the clients. And then you start creating opportunities and putting new prices in front of clients and booking the work. And then you realize, I'm working a lot.

Jenelle (29:45.582)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (30:09.836)

and I don't know if this is gonna be sustainable, how do I still maintain my standards of the quality and everything that I want to deliver and how I wanna work with my clients and what feels really good to me without working myself into the ground and not creating more capacity to...

Jenelle (30:10.469)

you

Shannon Mattern (30:35.496)

even raise our revenue more because that's really, you know, we all have like these bigger goals. And so we find ourselves at like these, okay, so I'm experiencing some problems of success that I now need to solve to like help myself get to the next level. And all along the way, I just love how you're like, I realized these places, I was just putting extra pressure on myself. And now I can see that.

and say, okay, here's where I'm putting some pressure on myself. And maybe that pressure is coming with extra time attached to it. And so if I decide to release that pressure, I actually like give myself back time that I can reallocate and use in more like productive, sustainable ways. And...

Jenelle (31:21.401)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (31:26.176)

That's a kind of another one of those things like when you talked about earlier, like, I had to go through a few projects to really see the value that I bring. Now it's like, I need to go through a few projects to really see where I can reclaim some of my time without compromising on quality or those types of things.

Jenelle (31:45.485)

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm in the middle of my time study right now, too. I've been keeping track of everything, so it'll be interesting to analyze that after a couple weeks.

Shannon Mattern (31:57.655)

Have you noticed any early patterns emerging from that? Anything that you're noticing?

Jenelle (32:04.399)

Well, I would love to be able to streamline things more where I can dedicate a day to each client at the moment. I just have too many clients at the moment to do that. So I can see where when I'm task switching, I know that that is eating up time. So the more that I can batch tasks, I think is gonna be one of the changes that I make.

Shannon Mattern (32:09.077)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (32:15.852)

you

Shannon Mattern (32:22.944)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (32:29.28)

Yeah, so one of the things that has come up with me and Janelle, like, I'm just like, I noticed how much I'm working. And you brought that same thing to the community where you're like, this is not how much I see myself working or I don't see myself working in these ways. And, you know, we talked about like planning time off and planning things to do.

with that time off, which you did. I have not followed my own advice, so I will be following my own advice. But I was like, I took, I started just tracking my time because the problem for me is that I love what I do so much that I can get like just singularly focused on work and it doesn't feel bad and it feels good and it's fun.

Jenelle (33:16.271)

I'm not gonna that.

Shannon Mattern (33:25.6)

But also like, then I'm like, my shoulders are really tight. And like, I, start wanting to like choose work over like plans with friends or things like that. And I'm like, this is actually like a sign that this is not okay. And so I was like, I need to really look at how I'm spending my time and get really honest with myself about where they're like, I'm doing things that don't even need to be done.

things that other people could do things that where am I over delivering? And, you know, what's driving that? Is it like true generosity or is it guilt? Like what is going on there? So I did this time study. I haven't fully analyzed it yet, but I'll definitely talk about it on the podcast, but like a couple of themes emerge pretty, pretty quickly that I'm like,

that doesn't even need to be done by me or anybody. Like, why am I doing that? Like we can just cross that off the list. just getting some awareness really helps. yeah. So we talked about some of the points where you're just like, that was tough. But what about the places that you're like so proud of yourself?

Jenelle (34:50.23)

Yeah, so when when I first rolled out the package matrix, still most of my clients were choosing my smallest package, which was still an improvement because I had I had it priced appropriately. I had kind of pulled out some of the deliverables that were more appropriate for the middle and high package that I had been just giving to everyone. So

Shannon Mattern (34:50.87)

Bye!

Shannon Mattern (35:01.739)

Mm-hmm.

Jenelle (35:16.762)

But I several, several, several choosing that smallest package. And then when I first had someone choose my middle package, which at the time was the biggest price I had ever charged for a website project, that was such a celebration. It blew my mind. I couldn't believe it. And then just a few months after that, someone chose my highest package, which was even more exciting.

Shannon Mattern (35:46.048)

Did it blow your mind even more?

Jenelle (35:46.567)

So, he did, I went out and had a celebratory dinner with my family. mean, yeah, very, just very exciting. so, something you said to me, you said, I see you as a person who's gonna end up working with a smaller number of clients at a high level. And that's what I see for myself as well. And so,

every time someone is choosing to work with me at that higher level, it feels affirming that yes, this is possible. This is what I want to work towards. And like I said earlier, that there are clients out there who value that really high level of service and that's what they're looking for. And I know that I can provide that and that that fits really well with, you know, like what I want my business to look like for me. yeah.

Shannon Mattern (36:40.905)

That's so beautiful. And I think about, you know, the early days when you were putting out your initial package matrices or pack patricks. And you had people choosing your lower end offer and concurrently you are implementing our marketing strategy and doing outreach and connecting. Like in hindsight, looking at that, it's like the people around you

Jenelle (36:52.527)

Uh-huh.

Jenelle (37:02.576)

Good.

Shannon Mattern (37:10.65)

were, you know, the, the people who you'd been charging your, your current prices that you were charging, like when you came into the program and referrals from those people. And so it makes total sense that there's like kind of a lag time. And from like, this is who is currently in my network right now. I'm giving them new opportunities to pay me more. I have realigned my pricing so that I'm not doing so much at the number that I was.

Jenelle (37:24.634)

Yes.

Shannon Mattern (37:39.146)

doing. So it's little more potentially a little more profitable. Or you're doing less work. If you're pulling some of those things out and then as you're continuing to like, implement the marketing strategy, open up your network, connect, cast a wider net and you're putting more and more offers in front of people. It's like, then you start to see that shift happen, which is the trajectory that you've seen. I just.

think that it's, just, your journey is so beautiful the way that it all has been unfolding. And when we talked about like, yeah, I see you working with like less clients at a higher, like higher level, more just in the way that you really like to work. I think that like what,

What we said at the beginning of our conversation is like, we get to decide what we love and how we like to work with clients and what lights us up. And then we get to create that and there's no one size fits all for any of it. And so I love that you're like in this place where you're like, I like to pay a lot of attention to detail. I like to.

delight people. like to do all of this. I like to take my time and, but in order to do that and have it be sustainable, we get to also charge for that. And, yeah, I just, it makes me so excited for what's, for what's next for you to really zone in on who that type of person is. And then like,

go create relationships with them.

Jenelle (39:37.712)

Yeah, that definitely feels like the next step. like you mentioned that lag, that's so true. I've seen it play out a couple of different times now where I'll start kind of a different marketing strategy or a different audience I'm marketing to, and it just takes a little bit to catch up and it still blows my mind. I'll have someone, you know, randomly email me back.

Shannon Mattern (39:58.281)

Mm-hmm.

Jenelle (40:05.329)

from I had reached out six months ago and now they're interested or now they're ready. And so something you always say is like you can't control the timeline. And so that's something that I've seen over and over as well. And I know that I'm doing my part, which is planting seeds, which is my consistent, I use the marketing momentum scripts and every Tuesday morning, that's my marketing block. And I'm just planting seeds and planting seeds and planting seeds. And sometimes they grow right away, but usually it's

like three months later, so.

Shannon Mattern (40:37.579)

Yeah. And I just think about like that just the decision making process in general is just like, there's like, I think I might want this now. Let me explore. Now let me talk to people. I thought it was ready. wait, maybe I'm not ready. Maybe I want to do all of these other things over here first. And like we, because we're like wanting to book clients, maybe we're a little impatient.

Jenelle (40:49.99)

Yeah.

Jenelle (41:03.419)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (41:03.859)

and I'm saying we as like the collective, we, I, I do the same thing. Like I wish every web designer Academy prospect was like you were like, this is what I want. I'm in let's join. But the reality is most people take a longer time to make a decision. And I just, you just got to keep planting and watering the seeds. and you know, so when they are ready and.

Jenelle (41:17.713)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (41:33.129)

You know, you don't just stop because it didn't work instantly. And it can feel so very much like, am I even doing this right? Is this even working? Like, what is happening? I have, should, maybe I should just go do Instagram stories or TikTok or whatever to like get clients. And then it starts working. And then it's like wild.

Jenelle (41:44.55)

Right?

Jenelle (41:51.623)

Yeah.

Jenelle (41:58.992)

Yeah, it really does. You had interviewed Barb, I think that I listened to this forever ago, and you had said about like, it kind of feels like you're just throwing spaghetti at the wall. And then there's this, then it just clicks and then there's a snowball effect. And that was really true for me. At first, I felt like there's a lot of pressure to be on social media and be even you know, some of my well-meaning friends and family, you know, they

Shannon Mattern (42:07.168)

yes.

Shannon Mattern (42:11.583)

Mm-hmm.

Jenelle (42:28.679)

They might be like, why don't you post more on Instagram about your business? I have so many projects I've done that I'm so proud of and I love how they turned out. And I just haven't had time to like share on Instagram, look at this new one. So it doesn't look like much is happening, but the difference between the relationship marketing, which is what we need to be doing and the high traffic marketing.

They're just completely different worlds. And I just haven't found that I need to be singing and dancing on Instagram or TikTok to reach clients. Like the personal outreach has been more effective for me. So sticking with that. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (43:11.047)

I love that. And, you know, I think of Barb. She's one of our early podcast episodes. I'll link that up in the show notes, but we just talked this morning on our global live strategy call. So we do two live strategy calls every Tuesday, one at 7 a.m. and one at 3 p.m. And we were just talking about this this morning that throwing spaghetti is the strategy.

Jenelle (43:35.505)

I'm sorry.

Shannon Mattern (43:35.594)

Like people talk about like that there's something wrong with that strategy that's like, it feels like I'm just throwing spaghetti in the, at the wall to see what sticks and like, that's the problem. And it's like, no, that's the strategy. And the thing that will happen is that you will land on unexpected relationships, unexpected pathways. Like if you just allow it to just

Jenelle (43:48.135)

you

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (44:05.481)

that to be the strategy and be open to like whatever might come out of it like magic happens. So, yeah, I am so curious.

Jenelle (44:11.345)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (44:21.063)

you joined a year ago, what would you say to, what would you tell the version of you one year ago today who had like just joined, what advice would you give yourself from the version of you today, knowing what you know, what would you tell, what little pep talk would you give yourself from back then?

Jenelle (44:23.026)

Mm-hmm.

Jenelle (44:44.328)

Ooh, that is such a good question. The first thing that came to mind was I would tell myself, you need to make time for yourself and take care of yourself too. Because I, there's this, there's this idea out there that when you start your own business, there's this hustle culture and the first year or the first three years, if you're not miserable, then you're not doing it right. And you should be working a million hours and

Shannon Mattern (44:56.435)

Hmm.

Jenelle (45:14.242)

So there's a lot of that out there and I really bought into that at first. And to some extent, like it's hard to let go of that because I think that like I've always prided myself on being very hardworking, right? So, but there's always something that you'll be chasing, the next level of revenue or whatever. And so you can't tell your, this is me, I'm speaking to me. You can't tell yourself.

Shannon Mattern (45:18.25)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (45:41.939)

Mm-hmm. Yes, exactly. Mm-hmm.

Jenelle (45:43.813)

I will be happy when, like when I make this amount per month or when I land this kind of a client or this level of a project, like then I will be happier, then I will have arrived, or then I'll be successful. You have to start with, you have to start with, and you teach this in the modules, you have to start with what is the schedule that you want.

Shannon Mattern (45:56.831)

Mm-hmm.

Jenelle (46:09.52)

And that includes your me time and your family time or time with loved ones, things like that. You need to have your CEO time and your client time is just a piece of that. And you can't say I'm going to wait to implement that until I'm successful at this number. You have to just implement that first and then, and then kind of build your business around that. So I think that that's something that I needed to hear.

back then that it's okay to take time off, take time for yourself. The whole reason I wanted to start this business instead of staying a teacher forever is because I was working crazy hours as a teacher and I wasn't present like mentally, emotionally as much as I wanted to be for my family. So I would come home from work and I'd be exhausted and my husband and my kids, I felt like they just got the leftovers of my energy. They kind of got the worst of me.

Shannon Mattern (47:00.5)

Yeah.

Jenelle (47:08.956)

because I was giving all of the best of myself to my students at school. So now with me being completely in control of my schedule and how and when I work and the kinds of projects and clients that I take on, I am in complete control of where my energy goes. And sometimes I start really early. Sometimes I do work later at night, but...

When my kids get home at three o'clock, I can take an hour off and hang out with them and chat with them. We can go for a walk. We can go get ice cream. I just love the flexibility of my schedule now. So anyway, I needed to tell myself, you don't have to work so hard to be successful. You can kind of take it a little bit more slowly.

Shannon Mattern (48:00.427)

That is beautiful. And as you were saying that I was looking up a permission slip that I just wrote for myself, like this past weekend, because I'm like, that is so, there's a belief that I have had implicitly, I didn't know that like, if I'm resting, I'm not making progress or I'm not working. And I had to notice that

Jenelle (48:08.137)

Shannon Mattern (48:30.31)

and actually reframe that to like, I'm resting for what's next. Rest isn't a reward for results. Rest creates results. Like rest is part of it. It's part of the success. And if, it's part of creating, it's part of how you attain the goals that you want. And like, you know, you think about if you've ever like lifted weights, you can't just like lift weights every single day. You need time to recover.

Jenelle (48:50.025)

I'm in.

Jenelle (48:57.502)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (48:59.322)

and you need time to like grow stronger. And I think that that's the piece that I personally don't do well is to give myself the space to even think about what's next. Sometimes it's just like, go, go, go, go, go. And when I'm not working, I feel like I'm just being kind of, I don't think I'm lazy, but I'm like, there's just always something that could be done. And I feel like

Jenelle (49:24.37)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (49:26.268)

My to-do list weighs on my mind. And what I need to understand is that like, resque is the task. Like that I'm actually doing something that's contributing to the future of the business. And so I love that you would have told yourself back then, like, Hey, build the schedule that you really want to be working in a year now, because that's part of this. It's not even like, that's what's going to create. Like.

better clients and like all of those things, it's like all part of it. So I think that that's just really important. And I'm so glad you said that.

because there's so many people that come into like our next level program that they're like, well, when I get here, I'm going to take Fridays off. I'm like, actually, you're going to start taking Fridays off now then. And then they're like, here's why I can't do that. And then I'm like, OK, now we've gotten to the real problem of like, what's going wrong in your business. And now I know exactly what I need to fix to help you fix.

Jenelle (50:14.631)

Hahaha

Jenelle (50:20.603)

Yeah.

Jenelle (50:26.697)

I can't wait for next level. I'm super excited.

Shannon Mattern (50:31.058)

I love it. Yeah. So you're about to you graduate while you ended your year in WGA, you're extending your time in there. You're going to come join us in the next level mastermind where we really dive into what are the core underlying belief systems and patterns that are going to keep us in homeostasis, right? But homeostasis could be like a great place. It doesn't have to be painful and problematic.

Jenelle (50:58.459)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (50:58.76)

but it's also like, I want to go here and I want someone to help make that journey easy for me, or I want to go here and I keep bumping up against the same thing. Like, and yeah, I'm so excited to have you in there. Amazing. So last question that I'll ask you before I ask you to share where everyone can go to connect with you is what belief about yourself did you have to change?

Jenelle (51:16.425)

Yay, can't wait.

Shannon Mattern (51:28.724)

to get to where you are today.

Jenelle (51:30.985)

Mmm.

Jenelle (51:41.021)

I need a second to think about this one. I should have prepared something for this. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (51:43.658)

Take your time.

Jenelle (51:53.899)

Oh, okay. So something I've always struggled with is perfectionism and that I need to do something 100 % to my standards, to Janelle's standards. And I had to realize that my 80 % or my 90 % might be someone else's 100%.

So it's okay to, it's okay even if I think, I could keep tweaking this or make this even better. It's okay to stop. And like I said earlier, kind of present something as version one, because you can always improve things, but that I'm the only one putting these crazy standards on myself.

that's not coming from anyone else or from my clients, like it's coming from me. And a lot, most of the time, if I present something that's my 80 or 90%, the client says, wow, like, I love it, this is amazing. So I just had to realize I'm the crazy person putting the pressure on myself, nobody else said.

Shannon Mattern (53:17.066)

So good. And then you have the choice to remove the pressure at any time. know, yeah, so good. Janelle, where can everyone go to meet you, connect with you, check out your website, all the things?

Jenelle (53:22.686)

Yeah! Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jenelle (53:34.225)

thank you. So my website is hellojannelmarie.com. Janelle is J-E-N-E-L-L-E. And I'm also on Instagram, I think at the same, like I said, I'm barely on there, but I think that's also hellojannelmarie. So yeah, I love meeting people and connecting with people and other web designers. So, and people should just join the Web Designer Academy and come hang out with us.

Shannon Mattern (54:01.916)

Amazing. Well, thank you so much. It was truly an honor to get to spend this hour with you talking about your journey and your insights. So everyone go check that out. I'll link it up in the show notes and Janelle, thank you so much for being here.

Jenelle (54:15.627)

Thank you, Shannon, you are the best.