Web Design Business Growth for Introverts: How Deep Relationships Lead to Big Results with Alyssa Downey

Shannon Mattern (00:02.053)

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Profitable Web Designer podcast. Today I am joined by Alyssa Downey, who is the founder of Make Your Design Matter, where she helps ambitious self-employed designers nail their processes, wow their clients and grow their businesses. And Alyssa spoke at the Simply Profitable Designer Summit this year. We met there and one of the things that I loved about her and her presentation is how she's like,

all in on building relationships and building like deep relationships with our clients to just continue to serve them and create recurring revenue in her business. I just want to, I just am happy to have this opportunity to have you on the podcast and just get to know you better. So thank you so much for being here.

Alyssa Downey (00:54.37)

Thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward to this. I'm so excited to talk.

Shannon Mattern (00:59.001)

I know it's been like months since we connected and it's finally happening. So yeah, I would love to just hear a little bit more about your journey. How did you get started? Like in design, what's your origin story?

Alyssa Downey (01:04.053)

I mean.

Alyssa Downey (01:17.39)

Sure. I love talking about this because I feel like it takes like a turn. It doesn't start the way I be expected. I also am a brand and web designer. I own a business called Amped Designs. And I actually started using the name Amped Designs in high school to design gig posters and album art for local bands. I just really love music, but I'm very introverted.

Shannon Mattern (01:39.918)

That's awesome.

Alyssa Downey (01:46.54)

I feel like it doesn't come off that way now because I've learned how to talk to people, but I was extremely introverted in high school. So there was no way I was going to like perform on a stage. but I was artsy, you know? So I started doing the gay posters and album art. And so then I went to college with the goal of working in the music industry. I started a music magazine in college. I used to interview bands and I would design and write all the pages.

every month. And I interned at a major record label while I was in college, which was an amazing experience that I would not trade. And I'm so glad I had that opportunity. It was so fun. But I also kind of realized through that experience that design for music was not as fulfilling as I'd expected it to be. had just been like in my college classes, I had been focusing a lot on branding.

and just, you know, general graphic design and putting a lot of like concept and meaning behind design decisions. And not that that can't be present for Design for Music, but it just wasn't. I was really craving the challenge. It was a lot more just like slap some text on this photo. And I just felt like I would always be craving more if I stayed in on that path. So I shifted to branding.

which I also really enjoyed, like I mentioned, and like never looked back, even though music still has a place in my heart. So yeah. And then, yeah, I should also mention web design. I did kind of study a little bit of that in college, although at the time that was like the beginning of when builders were just starting to come out. And so my classes were really focused on like custom development from scratch. And I was not very good at that.

because it's very hard. So most of my web design knowledge came after graduation from taking courses and going to summits and just learning by doing it myself. And yeah, so that's my story.

Shannon Mattern (03:55.375)

So I love that like every single person I've talked to, whether they started off in design or like some other career kind of had that like pivotal moment where it was like, this thing that I'm doing is not fulfilling me in whatever type of way, whether it's creativity, whether it's freedom, whether it's flexibility, like they have that like

inflection point almost where they're like, I did all the things that I was, that I thought I was supposed to do, or that I was told I should do in order to be quote unquote successful. And you find yourself like interning out a major record label, like what a dream. And then also like having that moment where you're like, this is not.

for me for the rest of my life and what then?

I know this is going to be kind of a deep question, but like what gave you the courage to not follow the path?

Alyssa Downey (05:10.81)

Hmm, that's a good question. And also, I know exactly what you mean. I feel like I hear this from a lot of, not even just designers, but entrepreneurs too. And I do think about this a lot as well because we, especially anyone who's like in my age group, is, know, range of 30s.

Shannon Mattern (05:21.327)

Yeah.

Alyssa Downey (05:38.934)

I feel like when we were growing up, was like drilled into us. These are the things that you have to do to be successful. Yeah. And in college, I went to a design school. So it was not a traditional career path by many standards. But even there, there were a lot of things that were drilled into us that was like, this is what success in design looks like. Like you have to graduate and work for this big design agency and your work has to be seen all over the world.

Shannon Mattern (05:44.015)

Yes.

Shannon Mattern (06:03.419)

Mmm.

Alyssa Downey (06:09.132)

you know, they would show us examples of alumni that worked on huge campaigns. And that's what I thought success was. And so I guess that's not really answering your question. But yeah, I guess like with with my shift, I was initially driven by just like this love of music. I just want to be involved in this. And I kind of

I didn't really feel like it was that big of a change to be honest, because I still loved design. And I, this is something I also talk about a lot when I'm talking with clients is that like I was initially inspired by music, but the thing that I really love about working with businesses is like really getting to know them and learning how they built their business. And that's what's really inspiring to me. So it's like the core is just.

Shannon Mattern (06:41.359)

Yeah.

Alyssa Downey (07:06.38)

this admiration of what someone else is doing, which is sort of the same thing in a weird way. So anyway.

Shannon Mattern (07:12.963)

Yeah, I totally see that and and it's like you like

you're we're looking at and this happens even now and like how you should run your web design business or whatever like when you get to even when you do decide I'm not gonna like like follow the same path as what I'm being told is quote unquote success because that doesn't feel aligned or doesn't feel good or doesn't feel right or that's not what I want but that's what I'm being shown is like in order to

be successful, you have to for you, it was like, go work at an agency and have your work in these huge campaigns all over the world, then we'll show our other students that that's like the pinnacle of success. For me, I went to school for marketing and communications and it was similar. It was like get a job at an agency and work on these big campaigns and, you know, do PR and all of this stuff or, you know, and like,

I ended up doing data entry at a law firm in the marketing department. Like that's not like, and then working my way up the corporate ladder to a quote unquote marketing position where I'm basically just like doing spreadsheets and sitting in board meetings all the time. Like it's at some point then you're like, why am I even doing this? And

This like, I was just thinking about like, or how we're told what does a successful web design business look like? And it's this arbitrary like, five figure revenue months, et cetera. Like it looks like this. You have a team. It's an agency. This is, you're not successful unless you like checked these boxes. And I think it's so interesting to explore. Like, we get to decide like you did.

Alyssa Downey (09:14.638)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (09:15.819)

Exactly what that looks like for us on our own terms for our own life for ourself and it's a bold move to like make that decision.

Alyssa Downey (09:26.926)

Yeah, I totally agree. to, I guess, kind of like bring that back to actually answer your question. I, when, so, sorry, I feel I'm trying to like connect all these pieces in my mind to make this make sense. So I initially worked for design studios, but I never actually worked for a big agency because I just could not bring myself to do that like.

Shannon Mattern (09:40.749)

It's all good. Take your time.

Alyssa Downey (09:54.926)

crazy lifestyle and just like trade my mental health for working 24 seven. But then I was out, I went to school in New York and I worked in New York for a few years and my husband and I decided to move to Asheville, North Carolina where we live now. And at the time, well, still there are not a lot of in-house design positions in Asheville. So I was like, well, I guess I'll try working for myself.

And at the time, I'm honestly like a little embarrassed to admit this, but it felt like failure because nobody that I knew from school or even just no peers in New York owned their own design business. And except for, you know, people who were at a way higher level than the average self-employed designer. And I really it like took me a long time to accept that just because I was moving.

Shannon Mattern (10:46.276)

Yeah.

Alyssa Downey (10:52.974)

It was not that I couldn't do it. It was that I chose not to. Because I know if I had stayed in New York, I could have gone down that path and I could have worked on big brands and whatever, but that was never fulfilling for me and I didn't want to do that anyway. So, yeah.

Shannon Mattern (11:09.391)

That's so interesting that like what that that like how it was viewed or how you viewed it was like, it's not success to go create my own thing that like somehow that's like lacking. And I think a lot of people feel that way too, that like the only path is to

even success would be to like grow a big web design agency and run a big web design agency, but deep down they don't really want that. And so they feel like what I'm doing isn't good enough. So when you like move to Asheville and total side note, I was at Josh Hall's Web Designer Pro Conference talking to someone about you because your reputation.

Alyssa Downey (12:05.42)

Yes, I know.

Shannon Mattern (12:06.619)

Your reputation is so good and everybody that knows you loves you. So we were totally talking about you. like, when did you let go of thinking that that was a failure and seeing it for like the opportunity that it really was to work for yourself?

Alyssa Downey (12:14.056)

that's great.

Alyssa Downey (12:31.31)

So I think one thing that was really fortunate about our move was that what I love about Asheville is that there's a huge community of self-employed designers and they are very, very community oriented. People are very collaborative. Everyone's so quick to just be like, let me refer you to this person or like let's work together on a project and let me introduce you to this so-and-so. And I think by just initially immersing myself in the self-employed designer community,

that kind of helped me shift my mindset from like, I'm just a little freelancer to I own a business because that's how they were describing what they did.

Shannon Mattern (13:07.771)

Yeah.

Alyssa Downey (13:10.894)

Yeah, and so like before I moved, and probably for the first year, I did not view what I was doing as running a business.

Shannon Mattern (13:22.275)

So tell me more about that. How you didn't view, you're like, I'm just a little freelancer. I did not view that as running a business. Now you do see yourself as running a business. What are those differences to you in terms of how you think about it and how you think about yourself?

Alyssa Downey (13:22.755)

So.

Alyssa Downey (13:44.13)

Well, now I believe that if you are making money working with clients, you're running a business. like I said, I just had never met anyone who had done anything like that. And so it just took me a long time to gain the confidence to like own that title. And I also about a year in took a business class, which was probably like the most pivotal thing that I did.

Shannon Mattern (13:53.147)

Yes!

Shannon Mattern (14:05.753)

Yeah.

Alyssa Downey (14:13.996)

because it taught me not how to not just be a good designer, but how to run a business. And so that was really helpful. And I think another part of like the initial lack of confidence though, and I see a lot of people talk about this on social media as well, like friends and family also don't see freelancing, quote unquote, freelancing as running a business. They think this is just like a temporary thing.

we're going to do until we find a real job. So, my family has always been supportive, but I do think initially they were like, you're doing what? So it all worked out.

Shannon Mattern (14:55.099)

For sure. That just made me think of a couple of things. I climbed the corporate ladder, and I got to the place where you're supposed to be happy and making good money, quote unquote. But at the flip side, I was like, at what cost? Because life felt so stifling, and I felt like I had no freedom. I wasn't being fulfilled creatively. But hey, good benefits.

whatever, like, and I felt really guilty for not being happy with that. I was just like, I should be happy. I should feel grateful. I should, you know, feel all of the things that, you know, when, when you have what people say success is, but like, if it feels soul sucking, why do you want it? And then when I decided to leave that,

Alyssa Downey (15:32.279)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (15:52.825)

I got this, very similar reaction of like well-meaning friends and family thinking that I'm like doing major harm to myself by letting go of this like security and safety and whatever. And it's like that same kind of thing is like people are saying, you're just doing this for now until you get a real job. And on the flip side of that is like, why are you leaving this career that you've put?

Alyssa Downey (16:17.272)

Yep.

Shannon Mattern (16:22.009)

you know, 20 years into building and your benefits and all of this stuff. And I'm like, because I can't see doing this for another 30 years until I retire. Like, I don't know how you don't leave what you're doing and go do something that like fuels your soul. And, you know, it's worth it. And I was just talking to one of our web designer academy.

students having a conversation with one of them the other day about how she started her freelance business and then a job opportunity came up like in web design. And so she took this opportunity and it is horrible and she hates it and she hates her life. And what she's getting from her peers are, you can't leave this. This is

Alyssa Downey (17:08.846)

you

Shannon Mattern (17:21.186)

you know, you'd be crazy to go back out on your own and freelance and whatever. And so I'm so glad we're having this conversation because I think there are a lot of people listening to this podcast that maybe are working a day job or want to go out on their own. And what their friends and family will say might be the thing that's keeping them from really pursuing it.

So what, I know I keep asking you these like super deep questions, but I'm just curious, like what had to shift in you or what were your thoughts or how did you like, how did you overcome that very real desire to do what you want to do, but also like,

Alyssa Downey (17:58.584)

Right.

Shannon Mattern (18:19.867)

not, but still like, I don't know, fit in, for lack of a better term, with like the people around you who don't understand and don't get it.

Alyssa Downey (18:31.374)

Well, I also just want to say that I think you can be grateful for what you have and the experiences that you had while still seeking something different. I don't think that means that you're not grateful.

Shannon Mattern (18:45.039)

I think so too. I felt I had a lot of negative self-talk back then for sure. I had to do a lot of work on that.

Alyssa Downey (18:51.072)

Yeah, that's really similar to kind of how I felt leaving New York. Because I mean, there's this saying, you can make it in New York, you can make it anywhere. I'm like, well, I'm leaving, I'm not making it. But it's like I said, like I chose to leave, I didn't have to. And I'm really grateful for everything that I experienced there. But okay, your question was about, sorry.

Shannon Mattern (18:57.593)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (19:01.22)

Mmm.

Shannon Mattern (19:06.905)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (19:16.813)

It's yeah, just know like I know. My question was just about like, how do you still kind of like blaze your own trail when you're well meaning peers and family are like, that's nice that you're just freelancing in the meantime till you get a real job.

Alyssa Downey (19:35.606)

Yeah, okay. So like I said, I am very fortunate that my immediate family, like my parents have always been supportive and I know that they are just, you know, looking out for me, but also very proud of anything that I do, regardless of what it is. As far as like other friends, other family members, you know, even now I still think that it's hard for them to understand what exactly I do and that this is

Shannon Mattern (19:51.099)

Yeah.

Alyssa Downey (20:05.206)

a real business because they haven't done this themselves. And so I just personally try, I mean, I try not to get offended by anything because there's just some battles that it's not worth having. It doesn't really bother. It's like, if they want to think that I only make 10K a year, then they can think that. It's like, that's not...

Shannon Mattern (20:10.789)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (20:31.492)

Yeah.

Alyssa Downey (20:35.822)

I don't know, it just doesn't really matter to me. I'm more focused on surrounding myself with people like you and other designers in Asheville who are self-employed and people who understand what we're doing here. I know a lot of people do get very offended when people don't seem to understand or they ask questions that can come off a certain way, but it's just...

Shannon Mattern (20:39.117)

I love that.

Shannon Mattern (20:53.688)

I love that.

Alyssa Downey (21:05.42)

I don't know, I just always just kind of try to put myself on their shoes and like they just don't get it and that's okay.

Shannon Mattern (21:13.529)

Yeah, and I also think too that it's like, they've never considered that there's any other way to do this. And their comments are coming not out of thinking that like, you're not good enough or that you won't succeed. It's like almost always out of like love and fear and wanting the best for you, not about being like critical or to be like,

Alyssa Downey (21:23.062)

Mm-hmm.

Alyssa Downey (21:36.396)

Yeah.

Congratulations.

Shannon Mattern (21:41.615)

Who do you think you are? You're not good enough to do that. It's usually about like, I'm scared for your future. And are you sure that this is like the right thing for you? And I think that's just always one of those things is like freelancers that, like you said, it is so important to connect with other people who are like minded and, and have been through those challenges so that you can like,

Alyssa Downey (21:43.342)

No.

Shannon Mattern (22:09.861)

Cause you can't go it alone. And I think that that's one of the things that like you connected with your community in Nashville, but you also help other designers like move through those stages of figuring out how they want to build and run their business. And I know, I'd love to hear more about like that journey. Like when did you decide to like, I could actually help other people navigate this, freelance thing.

you know, and, and use what I've, what I know and what I've, my experience to help them. When did that occur in your, in your timeline?

Alyssa Downey (22:49.876)

Yeah, I'm curious if other other design educators can relate to this too, but honestly, there were just so many people asking me for advice. And I'm like, very generous with free advice and having conversations and DMS and things like that. And I think I just got to a point where I was like, why don't I actually like create a platform for this? And so I started making

Shannon Mattern (22:58.875)

You

Alyssa Downey (23:16.088)

downloads and I started making social media content for designers and then eventually I separated it onto his own platform, Make Your Design Matter. Still like fairly integrated with my business, but that's been fun to just have everything under its own umbrella.

Shannon Mattern (23:36.879)

So what are some of the, like, if I'm recalling correctly from your presentation at the Simply Profitable Designer Summit, do you do a day rate structure with your business? Is that a design day structure that you do with your business?

Alyssa Downey (23:52.522)

Mm-mm. I actually do... That's okay. It's okay.

Shannon Mattern (23:54.843)

Oh, I'm sorry. I will edit that out. I'm going to make a note to self. 25 minutes in, I asked the wrong question. Yours was all about relationships, not design days.

Alyssa Downey (24:06.318)

It's fine.

Alyssa Downey (24:10.68)

Yeah, repeat clients.

Shannon Mattern (24:12.123)

Repeat clients. Why was I thinking it was design days for repeat clients? Okay, I'm going to withdraw the question, edit this minute out and ask a new question. reset. I'm sorry. So at the Simply Profitable Designer Summit, your topic was all about creating recurring revenue through

Alyssa Downey (24:17.564)

it's fine. I love it.

Alyssa Downey (24:31.342)

That's okay.

Shannon Mattern (24:41.775)

building repeat relationships with your clients. So can you share a little bit more about like your philosophy of how you develop those deep relationships with your clients to keep them coming back over and over so you're not constantly going out and getting new clients?

Alyssa Downey (25:00.758)

Yeah, so I guess if I really think about the why behind this, I think because I'm more introverted and a little bit of a people pleaser, I always want people to be happy. And so this was definitely a process to go from just saying yes to everything and doing everything the client wants to actually having structure and boundaries. But

all that to say, like I really want people to have a great experience. And because of that, they tend to work with me over and over and over again, which is wonderful. So a lot of what goes into that is not necessarily about just like continuing to create new offers and pitch new things to the same people, but just like treating people really well and continue to check in and nurture the relationship so that when they do need something, you're the person that they think of again.

Shannon Mattern (25:57.259)

I think it sounds so obvious and logical on the face of it, but also it's one of those things that I think as business owners and entrepreneurs, always keep thinking, we always think of like growth as like more or new or different or whatever. And

My experience has been even in growing like the web designer education side of my business is that it is the people that I meet and investing in those relationships and that like have created more opportunities for whatever the more is then always going after.

like new, different and better. It's like those relationships create more new, different and better. And I love that that is like where you put your energy. And so what are the things that you do within client projects to just create that experience that makes them never want to go work with anybody else ever?

Alyssa Downey (27:20.91)

Well, I would say clear communication is a huge thing from the very first moment they reach out before they even book a project. And being super transparent about how everything is going to go and what to expect and costs and everything that could arise and also boundaries. There are some things that are really important that the client has to do, particularly for web design. Like they have to

I don't write content, they have to give me their content. This is really important. If I don't get it, I have to resettle the project. And so being able to communicate the importance of that boundary and deadline in a kind way that doesn't scare them off. And then just keeping them informed throughout the process, making sure that they feel comfortable and heard.

feel like they can tell me their feedback and I'm not going to make them feel silly or anything like that. And then along with communications, I would also say something that is really important to me is timeliness. Like if I say, I'm going to have a proof in your inbox on Monday, I'm going to do it. And if I can't do it, I'm going to let them know. And it's always like a last resort. And

But that does go hand in hand with the communication because if I'm telling them we're going to finish your website in seven weeks, it's going to happen in seven weeks, not seven months. And so anyway, all of this, feel like it sounds like such a silly thing, but it really does stand out to people because I think you wouldn't believe how many designers do not communicate clearly.

Shannon Mattern (29:04.641)

Yeah, I mean, so many designers don't communicate clearly. And I think this is something that you have built into your process so beautifully. it's not like, I don't think it's because designers, they don't do it because they're bad business owners or whatever, but I think that we put

What I see is that designers put so much time, effort and energy into getting great at design because they think being really good at design will be what gets them more clients, better clients, higher paying clients. And the truth is there are tons of incredible designers out there that are all amazing at design, equally good. And so.

What sets you apart isn't going to be necessarily like, yeah, sure, your aesthetic, your vibe, like your niche, like all of those things, sure. But then when within all of those, there's also a lot of other designers who are all really good. And so when you can make someone feel that their investment is safe with you, it is like,

Cause they're not, this is like their livelihood most of the time. This is their hard earned money. This is their time. It's their heart and soul that they're like handing over to a designer. And all of the things that you just said, like the clear communication, the safe feedback, the timeliness, the commitment to your word, the communication if you need to renegotiate those things.

Those are all skills that anyone can, like they're not natural to everyone. They're natural to some people, I think, but I don't think that they come naturally. And I feel like as a designer, investing in learning those skills and those systems and those processes from people who are really good at that can be the difference between

Alyssa Downey (31:09.996)

Anyway.

Shannon Mattern (31:30.307)

a one and done project with a client who's like, yeah, it looks great, but it's never gonna come back to you again. And what you experience, which is repeat clients, I'm guessing lots of referrals and people who talk about you in a random conference, however many miles away Columbus, Ohio is from Asheville, because your reputation precedes you.

Alyssa Downey (31:56.526)

Exactly. And also I think it's important to remember that we can't assume that the client understands everything about how our process works. Like the client is not a web designer. They understand that they need to get you content, but they don't really understand why it's so important that it is in on this deadline and why we need that for design and all that kind of stuff. And I think sometimes it's easy to get frustrated when the client doesn't understand something.

But, and I'm not saying that it's always the designer's fault. That's not what I mean to imply at all, but it's also not always the client's fault. And for me, I mean, I spent years just trial and erroring things. Like every time something did not go well in a project, like if a project got dragged out or a client missed a deadline or whatever happened, someone gave me feedback about something that we're happy with.

I would always be like, what do I need to put in the contract or what do need to do to the process to like prevent this from happening again? And so just by like making little tweaks for years, that is how I got to where I am now. It wasn't just like, I just started like this.

Shannon Mattern (33:09.637)

I feel like that is so important what you just said that it's like not always the client's fault. Yes, sometimes we end up working with people who no matter what boundaries we set, they don't care. It doesn't matter. And there's no process to be adjusted that could like wrangle this person. And we all have, we all have experienced that. And I don't think that is at all.

Alyssa Downey (33:23.566)

Yeah.

Alyssa Downey (33:31.982)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (33:39.707)

what you're talking about because yes, clients do need to like treat us well and like humans and all of that. but I would say like 99 out of a hundred or 98 out of a hundred clients are not going to be that type of a person. And I think that as like business owners and

We're leaders in the sense of like when we engage in a client project, I do feel like it is our role and responsibility to lead and guide this person through a project. And part of our responsibility in that role is to say, where could I have done something differently to make this project more successful?

Alyssa Downey (34:30.83)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (34:30.843)

and always kind of take that ownership and that responsibility of like your own side of the street in terms of like, missed a deadline. Is there anything I could have done to like make that not happen? Sure, things happen and whatever and like life happens and whatever, but you know.

I love how you were like over the years, trial and error. I figured out all of the ways to like make this, make my client successful is really what I, what I hear you saying is that you've done all of these things to make your client successful. And they, why wouldn't they want to work with someone that sets them up for success?

Alyssa Downey (35:19.724)

Yeah, think it for well, I'll also like, I think it's okay to like feel one thing in private, but then say a different thing to the client. For me personally, it takes a lot for me to be like, this client is such a pain. Like my initial reaction is usually like, my gosh, I feel really bad that they are confused. And that is my fault. Maybe not, but it feels like it's my fault. And I need to like,

Shannon Mattern (35:28.751)

For sure.

Alyssa Downey (35:48.302)

look into it to figure out if it is or not.

Shannon Mattern (35:51.355)

So you've mentioned a few times like being an introvert and how some of the ways that you like some of the processes and systems you've developed in ways you've run your business has like supported that. Supported you able to like run your business well as an introvert. Can you share more a little bit more about like

how you work with your natural tendency of being introverted versus trying to make yourself be someone or be a way that you're not naturally wired to be.

Alyssa Downey (36:28.824)

Mm-hmm.

Alyssa Downey (36:33.122)

Yeah, that's such a good question. To be honest, still get a little bit like, I don't know, I see other people on social media who have these very energetic personalities that are so attractive and I'm like, I wish I was like that, but I'm just not. But I do honestly think that it almost is beneficial for being a designer because a lot of what I do is ask my clients questions and say nothing while they talk.

So it actually works out great because I can just listen to them and prompt them to talk more. But I think other things that are helpful for me are having lists of questions that I need to ask people before I get on the call. Or if it's a new conversation, scripting out what I need to say, especially if it's a difficult conversation. Or at least having bullet points. just anything I can do to make myself feel prepared is helpful.

Shannon Mattern (37:30.969)

Yeah, I totally agree with you about like social media. like, I should probably be on social media. And then I'm like, no, I shouldn't because I don't like it. That's not my vibe. I'd rather have an hour long conversation with someone and just be able to like ask them questions and let it go where it goes. And I feel like we do need to just lean into what feels best to us and then like create systems and structures around that to support us.

rather than like trying to go fit the mold of something else, which is what you said, which is what you said. Like you help people ditch that fake it till you make it mindset and help them show up, like confident, capable and trusted. So when people do come to like work with you or like use your tools, like what are you providing them with?

with make your design matter. Like how does that help designers just like make their businesses easier?

Alyssa Downey (38:41.122)

Yeah, well, I have a lot of free content. And I have a YouTube channel, which I know might seem very weird for an introvert, but it's all scripted.

Shannon Mattern (38:50.523)

That's why I have my solo podcast episodes all scripted. There's no winging it going on over here. I get you. Get you there.

Alyssa Downey (38:59.502)

Yeah, although like I do enjoy natural conversations like this, I think, and also like I have been doing this for eight years. I also, when I first started out, I probably would have been terrible for this podcast. But anyway, to answer your question.

Shannon Mattern (39:05.919)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (39:18.095)

Hahaha!

Alyssa Downey (39:22.042)

so a lot of my free content is resources to help you communicate better with clients or set better boundaries. My favorite resource that I have is email scripts for difficult client situations. And they are, there are also variations for each situation because sometimes they'll be like, well, okay, but if they say this, then you say this, but if they say this, then you say this. So I really wanted to be very comprehensive and helpful.

Shannon Mattern (39:36.155)

Mmm.

Alyssa Downey (39:49.486)

And then on YouTube, I talk about how to get clients, how to set boundaries. I actually just launched the channel a couple of months ago. So I have so many, so many things that I want to talk about.

Shannon Mattern (40:00.783)

You're speaking my love language with all of this.

Alyssa Downey (40:04.59)

yeah. But yeah, I really focus on like the business of design, the client facing process, the client experience, eliminating hiccups from the process, and also not just making the client happy, but like also being happy yourself. Yeah. So just all really comes down to like running a sustainable business.

Shannon Mattern (40:20.462)

Yes.

Shannon Mattern (40:29.819)

So I want to talk a little bit about difficult client situations because I think that that like they're OK. So I see web designers who are like, I want more clients. I want better clients. want, you know, I want to have bigger projects. I want to make more money. And on the flip side of that, they're like, but if I do that, then

I might have to have more difficult conversations. They think it's going to be more pressure to perform or create results. so what I see is a real fear of success that maybe they don't realize is why they're actually not marketing their business, not charging higher prices, not going after the bigger clients that they are.

more than capable of like handling and taking on projects like that because the worst thing that their subconscious fears is like, what if I have to have a difficult conversation with this client? So like when you say I have all of the scripts to help you have difficult conversations with clients,

I love that you put that together because difficult conversations affect our business more than just the discomfort of having the conversation. It can prevent you from even like going after the more that you're made for and want. So what are some of the, like some of the scenarios that you

Alyssa Downey (42:15.448)

That's so-

Alyssa Downey (42:23.128)

you

Shannon Mattern (42:24.699)

Either have experienced or you can say, hypothetically, I wrote a script for this type of a situation. But what are some of the ones that you address in those scripts?

Alyssa Downey (42:38.76)

Yeah, mean, everything in it is something I have had to respond to. And like, I know that you can use ChatGTP for this stuff, too. This was all before ChatGTP, but it is still really helpful to at least have a little template to start with that has the right tone of voice, and then you can adjust from there. So...

Shannon Mattern (42:43.055)

Hahaha!

Shannon Mattern (42:59.223)

Yes.

Alyssa Downey (43:03.766)

I let's see some of the things that I address are if the client is not happy with the designs to be honest that has not happened to me very often or at all but I know that I know I'm always like yeah I'm always like trying to be prepared for anything think like if the client asks for a lower price I have a lot of

Shannon Mattern (43:11.437)

Yeah. But just to know what to say if it can take so much pressure off.

Shannon Mattern (43:23.513)

Yeah.

Alyssa Downey (43:31.19)

responses for if the client ghosts you, whether it's after you send the proposal or it's in the middle of the project, if the client is pushing back on stuff in your contract. Let's see. Yeah, a lot of things I feel like on social media, I will see designers ask questions about a scenario and then people will just be like in the comments, fire the client. And I'm like, that should be the absolute last resort. There is most likely a way to make the client happy and also

Stay sane.

Shannon Mattern (44:03.779)

totally agree with you and I think like firing a client is like a last resort, but it's also like a fear response almost. Like, okay, like the client wants something, I don't know how to handle this, fight, flight, freeze or fawn. That's like a fight response of like, or a very protective response. And I think that it certainly is appropriate in some cases, depending on the situation.

but I would also say like, what's the growth opportunity here for you to step up and lead and and handle it in a different way. And you also said, like, I know there's chat GPT, but I, my experience with like asking chat GPT, like questions or like doing some research, I kind of use it as a thought partner now to help with certain things. And I'm constantly like, Ooh, chatty, that is conventional wisdom that I would not suggest.

Alyssa Downey (44:59.118)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (45:00.129)

that that people say my chat I don't know because I don't know if it's like what I put in my chat GPT is always profusely apologizing for stuff it doesn't need to apologize for. It's always like over delivering to try to like, keep the my chat GPT is like over delivering people pleasing version of responses where I'm like, absolutely not. This is actually like

disempowering the designer, making it worse, handing all of the leverage over to the client. And there are different ways to handle these conversations that like you said, like keep projects moving forward, keep both parties like happy, not like, you know, but keep it balanced and respectful.

And I'm like, is this just my chat? I hope this isn't everyone's chat GPT giving this advice. yeah, so I think it's just so important too to get chat GPT is not a designer. Sure, pick its brain, but get information from someone who's actually been through it, used it, and gotten good outcomes.

Sorry, I got up on my chat GPT soapbox there for a minute.

Alyssa Downey (46:21.474)

Yeah, I really.

That was great. really appreciate you saying that. Yeah, totally agree. I really appreciate you saying that.

Shannon Mattern (46:34.811)

It's, you know, conventional wisdom isn't always the way to go. That usually is what gets us in trouble in the first place. And you have to do things a little bit differently. So I'm so glad that there are people out there like you helping people navigate this stuff in the day to day. So yeah, just had to have a moment there on that.

Alyssa Downey (46:45.454)

Mm-hmm. So true.

Alyssa Downey (47:02.114)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (47:05.156)

you

Alyssa Downey (47:05.228)

Yeah, that is the, guess, I don't know, it's like a double-edged sword. don't know, there's like pros and cons of the design education space, because in many ways, it's great that you can get so much information for free anywhere and use ChatGTP, but sometimes you also have to be careful where you're getting your information from. And just like remember that all these people in the Reddit comments and ChatGTP,

they don't know your client and they don't know you and your business. So even with my templates, like every resource that I have, there's a disclaimer before the templates that says you edit these to fit your tone of voice and your specific situation. Because just copy pasting stuff, I think people will see right through that if it doesn't sound like you.

Shannon Mattern (47:55.771)

Yeah, and you won't feel good sending it. like all of these, think like everything that we've talked about so far of like how you want to build deep, trusting relationships with your clients, like, and so that you want to keep working with them and they want to keep working with you. It's because we want to have a business that feels good to run.

Alyssa Downey (48:26.146)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (48:26.275)

And like, if you're going to hate your job, go work for corporate, not saying every corporate person hates their job. There are plenty, I know plenty of people that work for other people that love their job, but you don't like, you get to love what you do. And you know, if there are things going on that are making you feel like it's hard, there are people out there to help you with.

Alyssa Downey (48:32.844)

Yeah.

Alyssa Downey (48:47.182)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (48:56.015)

with that to make it easier.

Alyssa Downey (48:58.614)

Yeah, definitely. Another thing I see a lot is people saying, we're all just faking it till we make it, which you mentioned before. I personally hate that phrase because that is not true. There are a lot of people who know what they're doing. And I don't think I would ever want my clients to think I was faking it and that I didn't know what I was doing in design or business. so, yeah, that is one big thing that I say a lot is that if you want...

Shannon Mattern (49:11.779)

Me too.

Alyssa Downey (49:27.63)

If you want to feel confident, I definitely have resources that can.

Shannon Mattern (49:33.871)

Yeah, I totally agree with you about the fake it till you make it sentiment. think that also give yourself a little bit more credit for what you do know and are bringing to the table. If you're listening to this and you have those parts of your business that feel wobbly and wonky,

Alyssa Downey (49:48.182)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (50:03.163)

I think that there's so much out there to help you. Why white knuckle your way through? Why spend another second feeling like you're faking it when there's so much out there to help you just solve that problem, feel confident, and you don't have to be like me and Alyssa and touch the hot stove a thousand times.

Alyssa Downey (50:20.28)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (50:32.867)

to spend however many years developing systems and processes to prevent all of the times we got our hands burnt. You can just shortcut it and take it from people with experience doing it.

Alyssa Downey (50:50.882)

Mm-hmm. And that's also...

Yeah, and also I would add that's not to like shame anybody that does feel that's like, you know, they're still figuring it out because everybody has to start somewhere. Everyone is going to make mistakes. Like it took me eight years to get to where I am now. And like even now, like there are always things that I can learn. There are always ways to grow. So yeah, it's just a process.

Shannon Mattern (51:22.893)

Yeah, it's like, there's a difference between, I think, fake it till you make it versus like, I'm going to take action anyway, knowing that I'll figure it out as I go versus like, versus I'm just going to pretend like I know what's going on and hopefully nobody finds out. That's a lot of pressure to put on yourself and

Alyssa Downey (51:35.574)

Yeah, exactly.

Alyssa Downey (51:48.15)

Exactly. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (51:51.789)

You certainly don't have to do that. So a couple more questions that I have for you that I ask everybody that comes on the podcast. One is what belief about yourself did you have to change to get to where you are today?

Alyssa Downey (51:55.374)

Yeah.

Alyssa Downey (52:10.04)

Hmm.

Uh-huh.

I feel like we kind of touched on the things that come to mind. Like the freelancer thing was like a big thing that I always think of as a pivotal moment going from like, I'm a freelancer to I'm a business owner. Because just like that mindset shift, felt like, and for me personally, at least it gave me more confidence. And also, I do think not I don't think this is true, but I think there's a different perception between the word freelancer and if you just

into a room and say, I own a business. So that was definitely pivotal. Yeah. And then probably like the other thing that I would think about is like the, the introvert thing. Like I don't think when I originally started doing this eight years ago, that I would like be on a podcast or speak at summits or things like that. I was definitely like always the shy kid that people had to say to tell to speak up.

And so I just, I don't know, I don't really know, like, I don't think there was like a pivotal moment. It was just like a gradual growth, but I am glad that that is not something that has like held me back.

Shannon Mattern (53:30.617)

That is so powerful. I think, you know, I think back to the version of me too, 10 or 15 years ago, that if you would have told me that I would have a podcast and I would speak at like virtual events and like in-person events and do all the things that I'm doing today, I would have been like, you are insane. Like,

Alyssa Downey (53:51.758)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (53:52.279)

I can't even speak at this board meeting, give a presentation at this board meeting without preparing for two months in advance and feeling sweaty while I'm presenting to like six people in this, like just at a meeting at work. And I do think that like,

Alyssa Downey (54:04.718)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (54:13.153)

If you're like, if you're anything like me, which I feel like you have a very, you have a very driven desire to help other people succeed, whether that's your clients, other designers, people in your design community in Asheville and local businesses around there. When you're driven by.

that type of purpose. It almost makes all of the feelings about like being like my shyness comes from like just wanting to stand out. What will other people think of me? I don't want like all of that fear and worry about being ostracized or whatever. It all just doesn't matter because the purpose of why you're doing the thing that you do like ends up just silencing all of that noise.

And it makes it like so worth it to kind of like stick your neck out a little bit. So.

Alyssa Downey (55:20.702)

Yeah, I think that also helps like drop that expectation of like having to go give your elevator pitch and be salesy and know how to overcome sales objections and like just go into it with the idea of building relationships, which is basically the gist of what I was talking about when it comes to giving your clients a good experience and just getting to know people.

Shannon Mattern (55:49.175)

I love that so much. Elevator pitches and overcoming objections and all of that is off the curriculum list in the web designer academy. You will not find that. Yeah, it's just not how we teach marketing or anything. so it's so refreshing to hear how you have grown your business.

Alyssa Downey (56:00.846)

That's what it to see what you can do.

Shannon Mattern (56:18.363)

through relationships and just providing value and just being real and connecting and caring more about your clients and their results and wanting to help other designers experience that as well. So where can everybody go to connect with you, get their hands on your resources, get in your world, build a relationship with you and learn from you?

Alyssa Downey (56:43.95)

Yeah, thanks for asking. I would love to connect. My website is ampedesigns.com. So it's ampedesigns.com. And I have a freebies page with tons of stuff for designers. I also have a YouTube channel that is, the handle is Make Your Design Matter. And I should also mention that I do offer consulting for designers. It is a monthly voxer.

chat subscription called the Design Business Helpline. And with that, you can basically just like chat me anytime you have like a difficult client situation or you're like stuck on something in your process or not sure how to respond or what to put in the proposal or really like anything related to process, communications, boundaries, you know. And it's really easy and

you can just get quick actionable advice instead of having to just book a session every time you need something. yeah.

Shannon Mattern (57:49.977)

I love that. That's a brilliant offer. That is so good. yeah.

Alyssa Downey (57:54.062)

I like it because it's also more conversational and can just like chat back and forth. So, yeah.

Shannon Mattern (58:00.077)

I love it. So good. Well, Alyssa, thank you so much for being here on the show. It's been really, really fun connecting and getting to know you. We'll link up all of that in the show notes. So everyone, can go check out ampeddesigns.com, get your hands on the freebies, subscribe to the YouTube channel and get some design, like, I don't know, design support, business support in your back pocket. I love it so much. So thank you so much for being here.

Alyssa Downey (58:25.686)

Yeah, that's what I say. Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun. I love chatting with you.