#183 – Pricing Strategy: Inside The Package Matrix^™ Framework

Alecia St. Germain (00:04.732)

I'm so excited about today's guest. My friend, longtime friend now it seems, Shannon Maddern is with me here today because she is a pricing strategy coach and she's stepping into something that is super exciting for me. She has helped me over the last year be able to look at the way that I price things so much differently. She's opened my mind and so she's gonna be talking to you today a little bit about

things that you can do from a psychology perspective and from a perspective that will help you stop undercharging, over delivering, having situations where you're doing things for free and feeling bad about it after the fact when you say yes, when you really should have probably just charged someone for it. So, I'm so excited Shannon Maddern is here. We're gonna get into it.

Welcome back to the Conscious Edge podcast. I'm your host, Alicia St. Germain, where I help women entrepreneurs expand what they can hold energetically, emotionally, financially, so they can experience a joyful, fulfilling life and enjoy the process of building their business. Shannon Maddern, welcome.

Shannon Mattern (01:21.25)

Thank you so much for having me back. I'm really excited to be here.

Alecia St. Germain (01:25.23)

always love when you're here. Long story short, for those of you who don't know Shannon Maddern, we met online virtually, figured out that we live in the same town, became fast friends, and probably now one of my best friends. I mean, for sure. Like, top five people.

Shannon Mattern (01:45.43)

Agreed.

Alecia St. Germain (01:49.276)

So just so people know what you do, you started out in coaching web designers.

after your successful web design business. And then you had this realization last year at the retreat that we held. came with me in February. Shannon was the best supporter and so helpful in being there. But also, I think you had one of the biggest, most profound breakthroughs too. So can you tell me a little bit about that or tell us a little bit about that?

Shannon Mattern (02:25.154)

Yeah, so like you said, We met about five years ago. And you've really led me through some pretty big transitions in my business. I think at the time that we met, I was operating my business coaching program for web designers as an online course with the coaching component. And one of the first things that we worked through when

we met was like, I was changing the format of that program to add a lot more coaching and support and the price was increasing commensurate with like how that program was changing. And I was terrified to increase my price. I remember being on a coaching call with you inside of your I had joined your coaching program. and I was in your coaching program. And I remember sobbing on

Alecia St. Germain (03:03.824)

Ha ha ha

Shannon Mattern (03:18.35)

a call with you because I was so terrified of, like, if I make this move, if I it was a two and a half times price increase at the time, if I do this, I will I was so scared that I was just gonna lose everything. And you worked your Alicia St. Germain Conscious Edge magic

and really helped me get to the core of what that fear was all about because it sounds so logical, right? It sounds so logical that, of course, you'd be afraid to raise your price and to risk everything and all of the things that my brain was telling me. And you one, helped me just normalize what was going on in my brain.

and two helped me get to the core of like what was really going on here and helped me create some safety to to make that move and and the the irony there is that like one of the things I do for the women web designers in my program is that I help them with the exact same challenges and fears about raising their prices. like What are people going to think of me

What if I lose all my clients? What if I can't handle the responsibility that comes with a higher, that I think comes with a higher price? All of these things. And so you really helped me through that, which helped me have more confidence helping my students through that. Because I'm like, I've experienced this very viscerally. And so.

Fast forward.

Alecia St. Germain (05:06.45)

I think it's really interesting because we so often judge ourselves.

for experiencing the same things that we help others with. So it happens across all kinds of industries, right? And so people have this expectation that if they're the ones helping others that they have to actually have it all figured out. And I'd venture to say, if you haven't struggled through what you help others with,

then chances are you probably aren't helping them at the highest level because you don't know the dark side of whatever the challenge is. You have to go through those challenges and go through those things to be able to really speak authentically and truly and help people more by the difficult challenges that you've had. So it's such a fallacy to think that if I have struggled,

that that makes me less qualified when in fact it makes you more qualified.

Shannon Mattern (06:14.744)

Yeah, one of the things I remember you saying to me, and you've said it to me several times, is leaders go first. And so I think that in hindsight, five years of hindsight, I think that I needed to really experience that to very solidly be able to, with even more confidence, teach what I teach at a higher price point to the women who

come to work with us in the Web Designer Academy. So fast forward five years. I think that was like five years ago. I teach this pricing strategy, pricing framework called the package matrix inside of our Web Designer Academy program. And I've only ever taught it inside the Web Designer Academy program. It's how we've helped web designers like

Alecia St. Germain (06:51.932)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (07:11.95)

increase their prices and do it in a way that feels very safe and that kind of mitigates a lot of the fear I was feeling. Just two and a half x-ing my prices and just it solves a lot of business problems. And we can get into that in a little bit if it supports our listeners. But I.

Alecia St. Germain (07:35.527)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (07:38.892)

went to your redefining success retreat. And people had said to me from time to time, you know, this could help way more types of businesses than just web designers. And I was so closed off to that possibility because my brain was just like, how? I don't even know how. Let me just stay in my lane. This is what I know. I was a web designer.

I understand fully what all their challenges are. I can speak very explicitly to how this package matrix strategy solves these specific problems specifically for web designers. And so I was very narrow minded about could it even help other people? Who am I to even take this outside of the Web Designer Academy? What if it doesn't help other people? So I'm sure I wasn't aware of all of those actual

thoughts happening when people would suggest to me that, you know, it could be another line of business that I could open up. But like it just my body would like, completely like clench up and my brain would shut it down. And I just dismiss it completely. So I'm out there redefining success retreat with you and your podcast co host Jonathan Duggar and all of the incredible humans that came to this retreat.

And I just hear them talking about some of the business challenges that they're having and some of the things that they're experiencing. And they were all completely different kinds of businesses, completely different industries. And that's when I finally heard what everyone was trying to tell me all along, that like, this strategy really could help.

so many more people than web designers, like they were saying literally the exact same words that I heard out of the mouths of other people. And that's when I really had, like I wasn't even there at the retreat for that.

Alecia St. Germain (09:51.94)

I know. Shannon had come to be like my support person and help me out extra hands. But also, but you also show up. So one of the things that Shannon I've experienced that you have always done since the time I met you is that you are always open to whatever is. Even though you don't think you are.

Shannon Mattern (09:58.93)

Yeah, I wasn't even there for that. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (10:20.428)

Hahaha!

Alecia St. Germain (10:21.456)

Right? Like you might reject it. will be the first to tell you, like she's sitting here telling you, like I wasn't hearing people, I was rejecting it, I was closing that off of my body. But what I know about you is I know I can plant a seed and you will hold on to it.

Shannon Mattern (10:36.097)

Mm-hmm.

Alecia St. Germain (10:40.184)

even unconsciously and then when it's ready to grow and the timing is right, then you will be like, this is the thing. Or you'll ask for feedback and even if it's not the most pleasant feedback to receive, you're so responsible with, look, let me explore that. Let me try that on. Let me see where that might be true. What else is possible? And you are so responsible to think through.

like how you create your results and you're willing to look at it good, or ugly. I never hear you blame elsewhere outside of yourself. And I think that's part of what makes you so successful, safe to be around. Like people in your program love you. People love, I don't.

I've never met someone that's like Shannon, man, that Shannon, you got to watch out. You are through and through the highest integrity, quality, safe person for people to be around. I think that's why, because you're just willing to hear it all. And it's really one of my favorite things about you.

Shannon Mattern (11:50.816)

Well, I really appreciate that. I can tell after the fact when I'm aware and I'm paying attention and I'm reflecting on certain things, I'm like that feeling of resistance and the physical closing off, shutting down is a sign that what I'm hearing is going to show me a blind spot that

maybe my nervous system and my subconscious, my immune system as you would call it, is like, that's my immune system fighting off change that my subconscious thinks is scary. And sometimes in the moment, I can't separate the protective wave coming from my actions and staying open.

when there's some time has passed and I can reflect and I can process, I can really see that I'm being shown an opportunity here, I'm being shown a blind spot, but there's something that I'm afraid of or something going on keeping me safe that doesn't want me to look at that. And that's what the work that you do in the Conscious Edge with your coaching is to really help people

like see the thing that they're trying to protect themselves from and then create some safety around it. I welcome those times where I'm very resistant and I try not to believe them because the longer I go believing those things, the more I delay the outcomes and results that I really want. So the more resistant I am,

the longer I suffer.

Alecia St. Germain (13:48.69)

I notice you do this thing when I think it's when you feel resistant and I think it's such a great practice is you feel resistance and then you go, tell me more. Do you, that something you intentionally do?

Shannon Mattern (14:00.17)

Yes.

Shannon Mattern (14:04.786)

Yes, because I what's going on in my brain is it's getting defensive. It's being like, No, that's not it. I'm being misunderstood. I already tried that. That's not what's happening here. And to turn that off, I need to be open. That's me being closed. And so when I'm like, I don't want to be closed right now. I want to hear what this person is saying. I have to like,

turn myself back into listening mode, which is why I'm like, OK, tell me more about that. To try to really be open because I want to be. It's like this battle of my subconscious and my conscious duking it out. But that's when I know I'm on the verge of a breakthrough.

Alecia St. Germain (14:47.377)

You're great.

Alecia St. Germain (14:51.271)

Yeah.

Alecia St. Germain (14:54.544)

I love that shift to curiosity. Yeah, I love that shift to curiosity. is number one thing Jonathan would tell you in mindfulness is to shift to curiosity. okay, so you're in the retreat, you have this realization that all of these problems that people have from different businesses that are not web designers, but are all service providers of some sort.

that what you teach could be supportive for them as well. And so you started to share with us at the retreat some of the things that are helpful about Package Matrix. And you went through my experience in package with going through Package Matrix in the little bit that you did teach us. I went through and really changed up my offerings.

What I love about it is that you show people how to provide options for clients, which gives them so much autonomy of choice, really. But for me, from my side of it, I went deeply into what I was offering, thought about the results that I wanted clients to have, thought about the experiences.

that I wanted them to have or could provide for them and came up with three different options that all get them to the same outcome. But it's just a matter of how do they want to travel? Like what do they want their experience to be like? And I was, you worked with me not to be attached to what they chose because you have to be, you have to like really love every single one of those things and not care what they choose, could just know that it's right for them.

Shannon Mattern (16:36.672)

Yes.

Alecia St. Germain (16:48.9)

I really love that about Package Matrix. I'm really curious, how did you start to piece this together? Because I know that you take, Shannon does this amazing thing where she takes information from all different places, synthesizes it, and then comes up with something new or advanced. The way your brain works is so cool to me.

Shannon Mattern (17:14.156)

Yeah, so it started back in 2017. I met somebody online, which is how it always goes, right? I was doing, back then, a daily podcast called Pep Talks for Side Hustlers. It's daily podcast. And.

I had somehow made its way into the earbuds of my now friend, Paul Klein, who had a podcast called Pricing is Positioning. He reached out. We connected. He invited me on his podcast. He came on my podcast. And we were just talking about pricing is positioning. And he was sharing different ways of making offers as a

as a consultant and a service provider. And as he's sharing this with me, he's talking about how do you increase your prices and how do you position and all the pricing psychology behind it. But what I'm hearing is this solves so many of the problems.

that we experience as creative service providers, any kind of service provider really, but I was working with web designers at the time. I was like, this isn't just about charging more. This is about being able to set boundaries with clients before they even ever come to work with you in a way that doesn't feel punitive or bossy and in a way that feels like really aligned. It's about like,

sustainability and capacity. You talk about capacity all the time. It's about drawing clear lines around your capacity and what you're, you know, how much you're willing to give in exchange for how much money you want to make and setting clear boundaries around capacity. It makes sales conversations so much easier. I mean, I think back to five years ago, the pressure I was feeling to pick the right price for my offer.

Shannon Mattern (19:21.76)

because I was only going to be giving them one opportunity at one price and ultimately them do you want this yes or no, which puts so much pressure on me to frame up the offer in a way that's making sure that you really see the value of this verse. on the flip side, puts a lot of pressure on you as the person deciding, right? Like is this right for me, yes or no? And as we know, when we feel

under pressure and we feel stressed both on the salesperson side and the client side, our higher level thinking gets shut down. We're flooded with cortisol, adrenaline, all of the hormones that put us into a fear response. Take our higher level thinking offline. And then what we're experiencing as the salesperson is just feeling really nervous and unsure and like, my whatever.

But as the person on the other end, their fear response comes online. And now they're just thinking of how do I get out of this situation? So they might just fawn and be like, yeah, that sounds great. Let me get back to you. You never hear from them again. They just say no, they can't afford it. Even if it has nothing to do with that, they just felt unsure. That's like the get out of jail free card for a.

Alecia St. Germain (20:46.96)

Yep.

Shannon Mattern (20:47.542)

for a sales conversation. And so as Paul was sharing this pricing is positioning concept with me, I'm like, this goes so much farther than just pricing. And so I started to adapt that to our proposal strategy inside of the Web Designer Academy. And it immediately shifted everything. I started using it.

Like I was still doing some freelance web design on the side, but our students were suddenly like, I just got a web design client at five times what I was charging before. And I didn't feel like I was ripping them off, like I was putting pressure on them. Like I felt great about it. I felt great about making the offer. I felt great about what they chose. And so that's kind of.

That's how it evolved over time. And over time, we made modifications to it to solve other problems that our students were having. like, we can add this to the package matrix, and we can add that. And so what we've really landed on, which what you shared, is a framework where you are looking at your offers in your business, and you're thinking about your

client avatar and you're thinking about what they most value. Some people value their time more. Some people value their money more. Some people are like, I'm willing to like spend both my time and money to to get the result that I want. Everybody has a different value system that they're coming to this conversation with. And you don't ever really know who's on the other side. So you make

you put options in front of that person that no matter what they choose, they're going to get exactly what they need. And you aren't over delivering because you're trying to like stuff all the value in to this one package. And then, you know, so that you can justify the price that they'll say yes to you're very clearly laying out like, if you're willing to spend this much money, I'm willing to contribute this much.

Shannon Mattern (23:07.424)

and we're gonna get you to the same results. And so it's just a very, it empowers them to be able to choose based on what they most value. It empowers you to offer things based on your capacity and what you most value. And it's just a really beautiful, I don't know, synchronicity in terms of matching the right person to the right offer.

Alecia St. Germain (23:35.296)

have found it.

Oh gosh, there's so many places I want to go. Well, one is a demonstration of this is really funny, a demonstration of like how we value different things. And you and I went to I when I talk about a retreat that I was supporting you in November on the podcast, I've mentioned that and like we're going you and I are going to the airport. This is how Shannon and I are wired like differently. like we but it works. I don't know. It just works for us.

Shannon Mattern (23:54.945)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (24:04.358)

Yeah, such a great example of this concept.

Alecia St. Germain (24:07.058)

So we are, it's really early in the morning and we are headed home from the retreat and it's foggy and you know, we realize we don't have money to get over the bridge. We don't have cash for the tolls. And so I'm like, I tell her ahead of time, like, hey, don't forget we gotta get cash for the tolls.

Shannon Mattern (24:25.066)

Yeah, we don't have cash for the tolls.

Alecia St. Germain (24:35.506)

And she's like, that's OK. We'll just use the automated thing that goes on the windshield of the rental car. And I was like, OK, yes, and make sure you tell them. Like, they're going to charge you. I'm like, so you're like, I don't care.

what they charge me. I just want to get over the bridge and I don't want to have to stop. And I'm like, but that's such a waste of money, right? And it's not, it's not you and I have talked about it. It's not that I am cheap. Like I don't want to buy cheap things, but when I spend my money, it's like it has to be something valuable. I want it to go the farthest. I want to make sure I'm not like feeling wasteful. And you're like, I want the convenience. So we figured it fundamentally in that moment.

our relationship with money is very different in what we value. And It's why package matrix works because you have different clients who fundamentally value different things. Sometimes it's speed, sometimes it's not having to like use extra mental capacity, not increasing their mental load.

Sometimes it is about they're willing to put in more extra effort and time on their place because they want a different experience. They want to travel differently. So it's really interesting to me the way that all played out. but we made it across the bridge.

Shannon Mattern (26:06.762)

Yeah, it's so interesting because we were having this conversation. And I'm just like, it would not be worth it to me to call and figure out what exactly they charged me. was just thinking about the value I place on my time was not worth that cost. And you're also like,

We just think completely differently about it. And neither of us is wrong. And neither of us is probably going to change. I don't think you will ever not plan ahead to not pay for tolls in a way where I would just be like, it's OK. I'll just deal with it after the fact. And so I love that you brought that up because it does perfectly describe how I, my

Alecia St. Germain (26:35.452)

We do.

Shannon Mattern (27:03.214)

My pricing paradigm, the way I view money.

could be very completely different from the client across the screen for me or across the desk for me when I'm making an offer. And if I'm not picking up on those nuances or speaking to what they value and have an offer in front of them that connects to what they really value, we might miss an opportunity to work together. Because I'm intentionally or not, and it's

you know, it's just we it's the lens through which we're looking and we don't even realize it. I'm communicating the value based on what I value. And I might not even realize people think or value in a completely different way. And so, you know, depending on the pricing paradigm that you're bringing to the conversation,

You might be speaking to someone who values their time more than money, but you're trying to sell them an offer that's trying to save them money. And they don't care. They don't want to save money. They just want to drive over the toll, the bridge, and get there. So it really allows you to add another dimension to your sales conversations. And it's not just like, I'm going to offer you more services at a higher price and less services at a lower price. It's no, I'm going to.

you're gonna be able to spend your time and your money in a way that aligns with what you value at your core. And I don't have to know that ahead of time.

Alecia St. Germain (28:31.942)

Yeah, and what I found really helpful in having the three different ways that someone could get to the end result is it also helped me help them choose what was the best fit for them. Because so many times I think when someone is interested in working with you, like when they're a yes, they're a yes. It's just a matter of if they say no, sometimes it's because there's something about.

what you're offering that doesn't work for them based on their value system or based on what they have going on in their life. And so it's been helpful for me to be able to coach someone into what would be the right fit for them without, I'm not selling. Like a perfect example within the coaching industry is like,

I have a group version of my program where people get lots of personalized support, but they're responsible for going into modules, doing the work, going through the exercises themselves.

Shannon Mattern (29:22.348)

Mm-hmm.

Alecia St. Germain (29:35.954)

And if they don't have the mental, can't carry the mental load of doing that, then they're not gonna get the benefit of the program. And so sometimes they'll come, someone will say to me in a sales call, like, just, you know, I, right now, I don't have the time, I'll say, do you have the capacity to do that? And they'll say, well, I will in a few months. And I can say things like, well, let me ask you, would you have been able to say that to me at any point

during the last 18 months. And they're like, no. And I go, then why is the next two months going to be different than the last year and a half? And they're like, I see what you're saying. And it's not about me selling them into a higher package. It's about me providing them an opportunity that is going to give them what they need to get to the end result they want.

And it makes it so easy in that way.

Shannon Mattern (30:39.212)

Yeah, and instead of this person coming into your group program struggling, and then you go in going above and beyond to help them be successful without getting paid for it, which I'm not saying you would do that. But a lot of people do, right? Or

Another thing that I see, and this is what really sparked for me at the retreat was one of the women there runs a digital marketing agency. And a lot of the challenges that she was talking about, she provides an excellent service to her clients, first class levels of service to her clients, just puts her all into what she does for them.

But she was charging at economy class prices and providing first class levels of service. so you also draw your own boundaries around that. When you're like, if you were to choose group coaching, when this private coaching offer was here in front of you, you're explicitly not choosing private coaching with me. So if you come into group coaching,

You already saw that you had the opportunity to pay for private coaching. You declined that. So if you then request additional support services strategy, whatever the different levels you're using to differentiate your packages on based on the package matrix framework, you explicitly did not choose that. So now I, as the service provider, it makes it so much easier to set

boundaries because I hate like, even don't love setting boundaries. It sounds so like punitive or whatever, but it's really just a guardrail to be like, you're bumping up against the guardrail. Like would you would this be supportive to you to, you know, go to this other level that you didn't think you needed, but really is going to be the better fit for you based on what you keep asking me for, you know, so it just makes it just sets the sets the whole engagement up.

Alecia St. Germain (32:47.015)

Right.

Shannon Mattern (32:53.548)

from the beginning to be very transparent so that you as the service provider who every single woman I meet delivers at 120 % no matter what to actually now get paid for delivering at 120 % or helps her not deliver at that level because they already didn't choose that. They're not expecting her to. So it's just a little hack.

Alecia St. Germain (33:22.663)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (33:22.708)

to help if you haven't solved that at your core, which is what Alicia really helps you do. It's almost like a little hack to keep you from doing the thing that really gets in your way.

Alecia St. Germain (33:37.244)

Well, and it makes me think of, so a couple episodes back in December, right around Christmas time, I did a episode on relational capacity. And so when you're using Patrick, Patrick, make package matrix, we call it Patrick, because it keeps coming out that way package matrix. So when you're doing that, what you're doing, boundaries kind of create the, is what's.

It's really more of an expectation, right? So you're putting out there, these are the expectations that you can, this is what you can expect for what you chose to purchase. Then if someone tries to go beyond into something they didn't purchase, it's very easy for you to hold them accountable and say, listen, when you chose that, this is what you signed up for. If you want that level of service,

it sounds like you might be ready to move to the next level up or not level up. I know we don't think of it like a hierarchy, another package might suit you better. So it makes it very easy for you to hold someone accountable for the choices that they've made and be completely compassionate about it without feeling like guilt or shame, like you did something wrong or you're being a bad person.

Shannon Mattern (35:03.754)

Yeah, and it makes it easier for you to hold yourself accountable because

So many times your client isn't even asking for this extra stuff that you're doing. You feel some type of way about their choice of the results that they're choosing to get at the speed that they're choosing to get them, what they're doing, not doing. You look at that, you make a error making that mean something about you and then you go into fix it mode. If you're like any of the web designers that I work with, you look at that as like a failure on your part that you're doing.

something wrong that you should be doing more. And instead of holding them accountable to their choice and holding yourself accountable to your choice, it keeps you from jumping in and over delivering when you weren't even asked to over deliver. So, you know, it gives you a tool to take like a leadership role and say, Hey, I noticed that you're having some challenges here.

You haven't asked me to step over the boundary. I'm noticing myself self wanting to step over the boundary to swoop in and save you. But instead of doing that, now I'm going to just reach out and say, hey, would this be supportive to you? And let them decide whether it is or isn't. And if they don't want to, that's not your.

that's not your choice, you get to let them like have their own decision. So I think the other beautiful part about it is it helps us hold ourselves accountable to not over deliver because that's such a capacity leak that our clients aren't even asking for. But we're doing it to create relief for ourselves.

Alecia St. Germain (36:46.544)

Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. And earlier you had said, I, you know, not that you would do things for free and not get paid all the time. Like, all the time. I, I...

Shannon Mattern (36:57.076)

I do too, still.

Alecia St. Germain (36:59.344)

And I think that's why I really love it. You know, when I first started in my coaching, my coaching, I did not have the capacity to do private coaching because I had little kids that were at home still. So I had to do everything that I did client facing in the shortest amount of time. Since they've started school, it really opened up that I did have the ability to do more private coaching. So going through

just to give people an example of what a package matrix would look like. Man, that is hard to say,

Shannon Mattern (37:38.292)

I know.

Alecia St. Germain (37:43.666)

I have three levels, right? So if someone wants to not be in modules, they want to show up to coaching calls, they want to do all the work inside of the coaching, and they want it completely customized, focused on whatever they have going on in their life at that moment on a week-to-week basis, then I do a private coaching package. And we do everything that we do inside of the exponential entrepreneur privately.

I have a second tier because I had some people who were like, I really want to be in a group. I value being a group, but I still want your eyes and some customization. So we have kind of a hybrid package where someone can have the group with a little bit of private coaching that gives them just a kind of a touch point for something more customized. And then the third level being purely group coaching. We do all of the work inside of groups, but we have set up a container

where you get a lot of hands-on. have coaching labs. have integration labs where you're doing the work. And then we have now brought on Jen as like an added value where we saw that there was some challenges for people in the financial leadership lab and how you really look at your money and make business decisions from your financials.

So there's still all of those touch points. It's just you're doing it in a group setting. And I have seen that. It's not just for coaches. Like I think about bookkeepers and tax professionals, even retainers with attorneys, anybody who's doing anything where you would say, me give someone a proposal or

Shannon Mattern (39:33.408)

Mm-hmm.

Alecia St. Germain (39:34.79)

And I was thinking about this and I don't know if you said it in some of your marketing material or if I saw someone say it somewhere else, but it's just becoming my awareness where you're sending out, you're about to send out a proposal, might have even been in your group. And then you want to change the price.

Shannon Mattern (39:51.104)

Yeah, yeah, I say this in my marketing, like if you've ever been about to send out a proposal and you lower the price right before you hit send, like this is is for you.

Alecia St. Germain (40:01.424)

This is for you. And I think about that. And I even think about real estate investors.

making an offer on a house. Now the interesting thing is it might seem like, the offer is the offer, but a lot of times an investor can give an offer, especially with interest rates where they are. An investor could give an offer like a cash price. Like this is what we'll buy it as is. I think of my mom, she does probates. So a lot of times they're full of stuff. We can give you an offer like cash as is.

We can give you an offer for the stuff and you can just leave the stuff inside or we can give you an offer that includes some kind of owner financing. And those can be three different tiered prices. And the whole point is with this is that people have choices, right? Is the concept here.

Shannon Mattern (40:55.542)

Yeah, that's super fascinating. never thought of, obviously, because I'm not in the real estate industry, but you are an expert in that industry. I never thought about how it could apply specifically in those industries. the applications are endless for Package Matrix and how it can really work to help you.

just maximize your capacity, your income, your time, all of those things. Yeah, every time I hear of a new way to use Patrick, as we call it, it just gets my gears turning. I'm like, oh, that's, That's.

Alecia St. Germain (41:28.273)

Mm-hmm.

Alecia St. Germain (41:43.846)

Yeah. And it's, I don't want to be really clear. It's more than because I think some of the common mistakes, you people hear it and they think like, I know, okay, that's easy. Three prices, three packages, da da da da. And I made these common mistakes where I started thinking about three different people and it's not, it's the same person. It's just what they value. People,

Shannon Mattern (42:02.538)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Alecia St. Germain (42:10.31)

come up with three different packages that aren't leading to the same thing. That's not it. And so it's how you put it together, but it's also how you present it to people so that, and again, it's not, I see so many sales tactics out there that feel gross. Like,

Shannon Mattern (42:13.75)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yep.

Shannon Mattern (42:27.457)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (42:35.018)

Yeah.

Alecia St. Germain (42:37.838)

A lot of the sales tactics out there I think are designed for people who already are ready to buy or they are capitalizing on a fear of missing out which is going to cause someone to make a decision in the moment that they may later regret.

Shannon Mattern (42:53.844)

Yes.

Shannon Mattern (43:03.275)

Mm-hmm.

Alecia St. Germain (43:04.522)

It's also going to cause a certain portion of people to freeze and not take any action because it's such high pressure sales. And what this does is it...

Shannon Mattern (43:09.696)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alecia St. Germain (43:21.146)

and I want to say, and those types of industries have an acceptable refund rate. Like they expect refunds and they expect the wrong people to get in their programs. it's like, that's just what it is. Like we just know.

Shannon Mattern (43:35.552)

Yeah. Yeah.

Alecia St. Germain (43:36.846)

And I think package matrix really solves that problem of attracting the right people to you who are going to be the best clients for you, who are going to be so happy with your services and decreases. mean, refunds still happen. It's circumstances. It usually has nothing to do with you, the provider. They had a life circumstance that kind of changed things.

So I think that those things make it really positive in that it's not going into it saying this is our acceptable refund rate.

Shannon Mattern (44:18.314)

Yeah, I mean, it's really a strategy that's based on creating psychological safety for the person on the other side of you to make a very empowered decision. But it also is based in behavioral economics because there are things that happen in our brains. There's ways that our brain works that maybe are counterintuitive to what we might think.

And so a lot of the nuance of the package matrix strategy is based on behavioral economics and what behavioral economists know about how our brains work, how we make decisions related to money. even, you you talked about earlier, like

a pressure-based decision based on FOMO. are ways to, FOMO's a real phenomenon. There are ways to abuse it, put pressure on people to make decisions. There are ways to leverage it in an ethical way to show people what's at stake and what it's really costing them to not make a decision, to make this decision over that decision, but in a way that gives them all of the information.

that they can really decide what they most value rather than like putting pressure on them to do one thing or another. So like you said, like there are a lot of like, nuances to the strategy that can like make or break it. And so that's what we that's what my favorite thing to do is, is to like

Alecia St. Germain (45:37.201)

Right.

Shannon Mattern (45:49.76)

help people actually package matrix their offers and figure out how to apply all of the little nuances and levers to their specific business in a way that they feel really good about making the offer.

Alecia St. Germain (46:03.408)

Yeah, I love that. And I'm and I'm so glad that you came on the podcast to share like just that it exists.

Shannon Mattern (46:10.752)

Yeah.

Alecia St. Germain (46:11.186)

It obviously it's more than what we're Show you in a podcast, but sometimes people don't even have an awareness that there is a different way that you could be making offers and I know that over the next year you are venturing out of just working with web designers, which I'm so happy about and I have had like I

Shannon Mattern (46:16.106)

Ha ha ha!

Shannon Mattern (46:26.922)

Yep.

Shannon Mattern (46:34.014)

It's a seed you planted with me many times and it's finally growing.

Alecia St. Germain (46:38.19)

finally growing. And so where do people go to learn more about this strategy, you, and see if it's a good fit for what they're doing in their business?

Shannon Mattern (46:56.084)

Yeah, so right now you can go to Shannonmattern.com. So that's where I have all of the information about Package Matrix. We're also hosting a workshop live very soon. It might be recorded by the time you listen to this and get there, are able to, you know, take advantage of that. But you can go to Shannonmattern.com forward slash conscious edge to get a link to learn more about that workshop where I will walk you through.

package matrix strategy you'll learn to implement it all of those things so yeah Shannonmatter.com is the best place for now to find all the things about package matrix

Alecia St. Germain (47:37.668)

Awesome, I'll make sure that we link it in the show notes as well. I have had that.

on my calendar for a very long time because I'm still working with it too and I'm so excited to go learn from you because I think one of the things that I am working to master is I feel pretty good about where the matrix is but it's saying it. I feel clunky and I feel like I need a few tweaks so I'm really excited to continue to learn from you and get coached by you as well.

I highly recommend that people check it out. I am telling all my clients about it too. Is there any final words you want to share?

Shannon Mattern (48:25.548)

I just really appreciate you encouraging me to bring package matrix out from behind the doors of the Web Designer Academy and just help more people get more.

comfortable with making offers at higher prices. know that, you know, I know how much we all put into our businesses. And, you know, I just want to help people make it easier for you to do the thing that you love to do. So thank you for having me on the podcast to talk about it. And just thank you for helping me see what I don't see. I'm very grateful for your coaching and your guidance and your friendship.

Alecia St. Germain (48:50.044)

Yeah.

Alecia St. Germain (48:57.99)

Big fan.

Alecia St. Germain (49:04.786)

All of those things I feel the same way. So with all of that being said, I'm sending you all so much love and if Jonathan were here he would say be well.