#142 – Overcoming the Fear of Selling with Dave Foy

Shannon Mattern (00:02.136)

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Profitable Web Designer podcast. Today I am joined by Dave Foy. He's an online educator and course creator who teaches non coders how to build better WordPress sites more confidently and profitably. So we have a lot to talk about Dave because I hear your name come up in my community over at the Web Designer Academy all the time of

Dave Foy (00:06.4)

web designer podcast. Today I am joined by Dave Foy. He's an online educator and course creator who teaches non-coders how to build better WordPress sites more confidently and profitably. So we have a lot to talk about Dave because I hear your name come up in my community over at the Web Designer Academy all the time.

Shannon Mattern (00:30.296)

Dave Foy's course on no stress DNS just saved me and Dave Foy this and Dave Foy that. So I'm really excited to get to meet you and learn more about you. Thank you so much for being here.

Dave Foy (00:30.812)

Dave Foy's course on no stress DNS just saved me and Dave Foy this and Dave Foy that. So I'm really excited to get to meet you and learn more about you. Thank you so much for being here. Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thank you very, much, Shannon. My friend, we have a mutual friend in Josh Hall. So Josh Hall has talked about you a lot as well. So when you asked me to talk to you and come on the podcast, was, it was a definite yes.

Shannon Mattern (00:59.118)

Yeah, mean, yeah, Josh and I were chatting about you over coffee and I was like, can you introduce me? Cause it, you know, it just shortcuts that whole, you know, pitching people to be, on my podcast when Josh has the in for me. So yeah, thanks Josh. We appreciate you. So I would love to start off with a little bit about your background and your journey to, um,

Dave Foy (01:00.176)

I mean, yeah, Josh and I were chatting about you over coffee and I was like, can you introduce me? Because, know, it just shortcuts that whole, you know, pitching people to be be on my podcast when Josh has the in for me. So yeah, definitely. No, I'm to be here. We appreciate you. Yeah. Cheers, Josh. Thank you very much. So I would love to start off with a little bit about your background and your journey to becoming an online educator. I was

Shannon Mattern (01:25.388)

becoming an online educator. was brushing up on you before starting this interview, but I know our listeners would love to hear more about like your background and your origin story and journey to like what you're doing today.

Dave Foy (01:29.527)

brushing up on you before starting this interview, but I know our listeners would love to hear more about like your background and your origin story and journey to like what you're doing today. Yeah, that's that's fine. I started out actually as a teacher. So I started out as a classroom teacher teaching like fairly small children, so I've aged five to up to about the age of 11 in the UK. And that was back in the 90s, kind of 90s into the kind of early 2000s.

and I absolutely loved teaching. Teaching was my passion. was very, very, very good at it. Long story short, I just got completely beaten down by bureaucracy, targets, government, you know, intervention, all that kind of thing. And I got to a point where I thought I love the teaching, but I hate all the other stuff that comes with this job. I could tell you some really horrible horror stories, but I'll keep it positive.

So I got to the point where I thought, right, well, I'm, I don't know how old I was at the time, late 20s, early 30s. I thought, I cannot sit in a classroom complaining about this job until I'm 65 or whatever. So I'm gonna do something different. So I'd actually had quite a passion for web design in the background. I'd been building websites for myself and for my band and...

There was an early kind of photo sharing site that I built for my friends We'd go out clubbing and we'd all take photos. This is in the way before the days of Flickr and Facebook and everything else. Thank goodness and So I built this kind of little private photo sharing site for us and I absolutely loved it and thing that attracted me to web design was I Really liked the idea at least of like the creativity and building something

and the real kind of just just the reward of actually creating something and i laugh at myself now when i think about it but the idea of actually finishing a job i mean a website is never ever finished and i know that now but at the time i believed that you would do the whole thing and it would be done and it would be something you could be proud of which was something in classroom teaching i'd lost that you could never finish anything it was you were always just

Dave Foy (03:51.32)

being constantly kind of cut short and couldn't actually really do the job that you wanted to do. So I rather foolishly, I suppose, just threw the teaching up in the air and went into it went into web design and taught myself really just on the job pretty much. I really had absolutely zero. I think probably like most of the listeners zero.

experience in business or marketing, making money, selling anything to anyone. I really wanted to make things and what I liked the idea as an introvert, what I really liked the idea of was spending time on my own, nice, peace and quiet, just making these lovely websites and delivering them and you know, not having to kind of sit in an office with a load of other people so...

Although when I first started my idea was to get a job. would learn the job, I would get a job in an agency and that would be my path. yeah, the pull towards actually running my own show and being able to kind of set my own agenda and everything else was huge. Yeah, that's just something that I really, really wanted to do. So I really did that for the next 16 years.

built websites for people ultimately kind of went into helping people with marketing and email marketing and some SEO as well I got to the point about 2016 when I'd really just lost I had sort of lost the love for for doing client work really because it was and this is something that I know is your specialism so

But I got to the point where I was in that constant grind of trying to find the next project, trying to, you know, just, just, just really working from project to project, hour to hour. And I had at the same time, had the kind of the pullback to teaching as well. So all the way through that 16 years, I realized after a while that it was on an 18 month cycle, every 18 months, quite predictably in the end.

Dave Foy (06:08.853)

I would get this enormous urge, pang, to teach again. And I would berate myself. It's like, why are you not teaching? You've got this great talent. Why are you not doing it? You should be doing it. And so every 18 months, I would contact one of my old head teacher colleagues, the heads of the schools that I used to work in and say, could you mind giving me some work? We call it supply teaching in this country, but...

you where you go in and you kind of cover for teachers who were away or anything else, you know, I just I'd like to get back into the classroom again. I would spend an hour, five minutes, five minutes in that classroom and think, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I want to I want to be back building websites in my own space. Thank you very much. So but it got to that point in 2016 where I thought I really, really have to teach. It was just something that just would not let me alone. So.

I ultimately, it took me surprisingly long time but ultimately I had the amazing idea to teach and do the web design at the same time you know just bring those two things together and actually teach web design online so by that point I knew how to do the website stuff I had worked on many many many projects with

Other kind of like creatives, designers, marketers, all kinds of people who weren't website developers. we're talking, I when I learned to make websites, it was all hand coded. I'd learned how to build them by hand. So I was the bottleneck. All these projects working with designers and creatives and copywriters and marketers who were desperate just to get the damn landing page out and start making money.

I'd like, well, yeah, I'll put you on my list. I'll get back to you in two weeks. I was the developer bottleneck and they had all gone away and essentially kind of circumvented me and learned how to use these kind of WordPress page builders that were coming out at the time. And they were off building their own landing pages themselves, which I thought was rather rude, but anyway, so.

Shannon Mattern (07:59.702)

you

Shannon Mattern (08:23.085)

you

Dave Foy (08:24.907)

So it came to me that I could actually help more of those kind of people, know, the non-coders, the non-technical people, the people who were just, you know, not wired up to build with code and all that kind of thing and help them to build better websites with the right approach and the right systems and the right workflow. So I ultimately did that, taught myself how to teach online, how to make videos, how to make YouTube videos.

the whole painful process of realizing what my face actually looked like and what my voice actually sounded like and wondered why my so-called friends hadn't bothered to tell me in the last 30 or 40 years. So yeah, through all of that horrible, we can talk about it, about horrible imposter syndrome.

Shannon Mattern (09:16.142)

Yeah.

Dave Foy (09:18.269)

just yeah it was it was it was horrible but ultimately the rewards were great because i got over my fear of selling and fear of marketing for various reasons managed to start selling courses and i'm i'm pretty much that's that's pretty much brings us up to up to the to the present day

Although I'm gonna be moving away from making courses now because of recurring revenue. I don't know if you've ever heard of recurring revenue, but you know, I hear it's a good thing. So many good things in there that I want to like talk about, but yes I do. I have heard of this recurring revenue thing.

Shannon Mattern (09:52.254)

so many good things in there that I want to like talk about, but yes, I do. I have heard of this recurring revenue thing and, we're doing a whole summit on it. In fact, by the time this interview comes out, that summit will have been, will have been complete, but your story resonates with me so much. where I, I was not in education, but I was in a job where I had a moment one day where I was like,

Dave Foy (10:03.531)

We're doing a whole summit on it. In fact, by the time this interview comes out, that summit will have been complete. But your story resonates with me so much. Where I was not in education, but I was in a job where I had a moment one day where I was like, I am 35 years old and I cannot see myself doing this at 40 or 50 or 60. Like I cannot.

Shannon Mattern (10:20.866)

I am 35 years old and if I cannot see myself doing this at 40 or 50 or 60, like I cannot just come to this beige windowless office for one more day and, you know, create another spreadsheet. No one's going to look at and tell someone to like plug their monitor back in because it's not broken. It's just the cables loose and you just feel like.

Dave Foy (10:29.79)

just come to this beige windowless office for one more day and, you know, create another spreadsheet no one's gonna look at and tell someone to like plug their monitor back in because it's not broken. It's just the cables loose and you just feel like you want to have so much more impact. But the reality of where you find yourself is like.

Shannon Mattern (10:48.01)

You want to have so much more impact. but the reality of, of where you find yourself is like, you feel like you're just not doing anything and it's all like purposeless and pointless. And that was the moment that I found myself into. And I had learned web design on my own self-taught just through being the one that was like determined to solve certain business problems at work, you know, as in the marketing.

Dave Foy (10:56.787)

you feel like you're just not doing anything and it's all like purposeless and pointless. And that was the moment that I found myself into. And I had learned web design on my own, self-taught just through being the one that was like determined to solve certain business problems at work, you know, as in the marketing.

Shannon Mattern (11:17.366)

in the marketing department, but I was like the IT person in the marketing department. I was like the tech, the MarTech person. so anytime we needed to, I'm sorry, Dave, but I was the one that would like not wait on the tech person to like do the thing for me. I'm like, okay, I'm just going to figure out how to do this myself faster.

Dave Foy (11:17.934)

in the marketing department, but I was like the IT person in the marketing department. I was like the tech, the MarTech person. so anytime we needed to, I'm sorry, Dave, but I was the one that would like not wait on the tech person to like do the thing for me. I'm like, okay, I'm just going to figure out how to do this myself faster. And I taught myself WordPress very early on. And then it just kind of became my little like secret back pocket superpower.

Shannon Mattern (11:38.646)

And I taught myself WordPress very early on. And then it just kind of became my little like secret back pocket superpower for so many things. And then very much like you, I was doing client work that I did not understand how to run a business, how it was different than like, now I have 10 clients and I'm letting them all treat me like they're my boss and I'm their employee. And this is so unsustainable. And how am I ever going to make money with this?

Dave Foy (11:46.394)

for so many things and then very much like you, I was doing client work that I did not understand how to run a business, how it was different than like, now I have 10 clients and I'm letting them all treat me like they're my boss and I'm their employee and this is so unsustainable and how am I ever gonna make money with this? And then shifted to I heard of this guy, Pat Flynn, maybe you've heard of him. I know Pat Flynn very, very well, yeah. Not personally, but yeah.

Shannon Mattern (12:06.432)

and then shifted to, I heard of this guy, Pat Flynn, maybe you've heard of him. Yeah, yeah, who was teaching people how to set up their blog by, and he was teaching it for free and he was making money from affiliate income. And I was like, well, I could do that. Like, I have this way, like this way I do this, I could teach people how to set up their domain and hosting and.

Dave Foy (12:15.562)

Yeah, who was teaching people how to set up their blog by and he was teaching it for free and he was making money from affiliate income. And I was like, well, I could do that. I have this way, like this way I do this, I could teach people how to set up their domain and hosting and, you know, set up WordPress and all of this stuff and just get my affiliate commissions. And then I don't

Shannon Mattern (12:36.172)

You know, set up WordPress and all of this stuff and just get my affiliate commissions. And then I don't have to sell anybody anything. I just get to teach this stuff for free and make all my money off the backend. And so I created a totally free WordPress training, teaching people how to like set up all of the things. And then people were signing up for my free training. And then they're like, this is great. And also I don't care. I don't want to do it myself. Can I hire you to do this for me?

Dave Foy (12:42.622)

to sell anybody anything, I just get to teach this stuff for free and make all my money off the backend. And so I created a totally free WordPress training, teaching people how to like set up all of the things. And then people were signing up for my free training. And then they're like, this is great. And also I don't care. I don't want to do it myself. Can I hire you to do this for me? And I was like, I can't.

Shannon Mattern (13:06.39)

And I was like, I can't repeat how I was doing it before. The only way I will do this for them is if I fix my packages, pricing, boundaries, all of that stuff and figure out a profitable, sustainable way to do that. so eventually I did. And that kind of like led me to, led me to being able to blend the two, finally quit my day job and go all in on that. And then I realized like,

Dave Foy (13:09.364)

heat how I was doing it before. The only way I will do this for them is if I fix my packages pricing boundaries, all of that stuff and figure out a profitable sustainable way to do that. so eventually I did. And that kind of like led me to led me to being able to blend the two finally quit my day job and go all in on that. And then I realized like, I love

Shannon Mattern (13:36.468)

I love other web designers were like, how do you do that? And I'm like, well, I'll teach you. And I really love teaching web designers how to get out of the trap that I was in before that it sounds like you were in before that just grinds you down and burns you out and makes you not want to do client work.

Dave Foy (13:38.18)

other web designers were like, how do you do that? And I'm like, well, I'll teach you. And I really love teaching web designers how to get out of the trap that I was in before that it sounds like you were in before that just grinds you down and burns you out and makes you not want to do client work. Clients need people who want to do client work.

Shannon Mattern (13:59.79)

clients need people who want to do client work. And there's a way to do it that isn't going to like, just steal your soul from you. But it doesn't come naturally, I don't think, you know, maybe to some people it does, but it didn't come naturally to me. So your story just really resonated with me because a lot of the things that you were talking about, I'm like, I have been there. That's what I wanted to, I wanted to help other people.

Dave Foy (14:03.087)

And there's a way to do it that isn't going to like just steal your soul from you. But it doesn't come naturally. I don't think, you know, maybe to some people it does, but it didn't come naturally to me. your story just really resonated with me because a lot of the things that you're talking about, I'm like, I have been there. That's what I wanted to. I wanted to help other people. Yeah. And so I just feel like we're kindred spirits. It's funny you mentioned Pat Flynn because

Shannon Mattern (14:24.75)

And so I just feel like we're kindred spirits in that regard.

Dave Foy (14:31.949)

I remember when I had the vague idea to do something online, kind of bring this teaching online and teach web designers and it was the vaguest of ideas at the time and I must, remember every day practically I would go for a long long walk, a good hour or two. I remember the route I would take and I would just listen to Pat Flynn's podcast episode after episode. I would actually tend to skip the

Shannon Mattern (14:53.763)

Yep.

Dave Foy (14:58.017)

the big names you know the the amy porterfields and the tim ferris's and all those people and zero in more on just the the ordinary people who had just found themselves in a position where they're like i've got this passion expertise usually here's a thing that i've just fixed for myself wow there are loads of other people that happen to have that same problem as well and i can fix it for them as well and i used to find those stories so so inspiring

Shannon Mattern (15:04.163)

Yeah.

Dave Foy (15:25.737)

I feel like I have a lot to thank Pat Flynn for even now. Yeah, me too. I remember I was the what the the niche I suppose that I went after was the woman just like me who woke up at 35 at her dead end day job one day and was like, this cannot be what I do for the rest of my

Shannon Mattern (15:31.66)

Yeah, me too. I remember I was the what the, the niche, I suppose that I went after was the woman just like me who woke up at 35 at her dead end day job one day and was like, this cannot be what I do for the rest of my life. But also, you know, she wasn't

Dave Foy (15:51.944)

But also, you know, she wasn't in a position at the time or whatever to hire someone to build a website for her. I'm like, I like to me, I'm like, this is so easy. Like, it's not complicated at all. Just push these buttons in this order and I'll tell you them and I don't need to explain to you what a widget is and a plugin is. I'm just going to tell you what to do. And, you know,

Shannon Mattern (15:56.628)

in a position at the time or whatever to hire someone to build a website for her. I'm like, I like to me, I'm like, this is so easy. Like it's not complicated at all. Just push these buttons in this order and I'll tell you them. And I don't need to explain to you what a widget is and a plugin is. I'm just going to tell you what to do. And you know, I was like, I want them to have the freedom that I'm having. And that's really what was driving me.

Dave Foy (16:20.129)

I was like, I want them to have the freedom that I'm having. And that's really what was driving me. I had solved this problem for myself. I wanted to solve it for other people. yeah, so I think that desire to help other people solve a problem, I think is the crux of every successful business idea, isn't Whether that's something that's like one to many, like the kind of thing that I'm doing or

Shannon Mattern (16:26.158)

was I had solved this problem for myself. I wanted to solve it for other people. yeah, so yeah.

Dave Foy (16:49.489)

whether it's one to one, if you're working directly with clients, that desire to help somebody fix a problem, get over a hump and achieve a better outcome. So yeah, I think, I know for me, we may be skipping ahead slightly here, but I know for me that realization of the fact that you kind of have, told me, I had problems with selling a service, selling my web design services way, way back.

Shannon Mattern (17:05.549)

No.

Dave Foy (17:18.343)

I think my first website I sold to a school that I used to work at because I was kind of figuring it out on the job. I must have charged them about probably the equivalent of about $300. Now we're going back 20 something years, but still, it was a very, very low amount of money. I just felt absolutely terrified of asking people for anything really. And it's actually only when I started to do the teaching online thing and...

Shannon Mattern (17:34.893)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (17:41.452)

Me too.

Dave Foy (17:47.911)

got to the point where oh man i'm gonna have to sell something to hopefully fingers crossed lots and lots and lots of people you'd better get good at asking people for money and i think it was i can't remember who it was exactly may have been pat flint partly it may have been somebody called mariah cause as well i don't know you've ever come across mariah cause i have yes i i worked with her yeah oh really well mariah was a really big inspiration

Shannon Mattern (18:08.166)

I have, yes, I worked with her, Yep, that's how I structured my web designer academy course was based on her teachings of how to structure like a course that can serve a lot of people, but also be high touch, yeah.

Dave Foy (18:17.254)

designer academy course was based on you know her teachings of how to structure like a course that can serve a lot of people but also be high touch yeah so that's where I started as well I landed I don't know how I discovered Mariah she just was around a lot of the time I think I'm going back to about 2016 but she was just

Shannon Mattern (18:38.499)

Yeah.

Dave Foy (18:41.162)

One of those there were an awful lot of what do you call them? Bro marketers who just you know the Lamborghinis and the whole thing just turned me off completely. It's like no no no no no no. And Mariah was just a normal person who was enthusiastic about sharing her knowledge but I remember the thing that she used to say was is that if you have the ability to help other people in some way if you've got the ability to help them

Shannon Mattern (18:47.471)

Yes.

Dave Foy (19:08.518)

It is your duty to charge money and good money because that's the only way that you can actually serve people and stay in business and continue to serve people is by charging what you're worth. that for me was the... It sounds so simple when you say it out loud, but for me at the time that was just such an enormous mindset game changer.

like wow now that is something I can really really get behind and that changed everything for me and as soon as I internalized that I was more than more than happy to ask people for money because I think is this gonna help people is you know somebody taking this course in my example gonna get them the result they're looking for and I was more than happy to ask for money but that was

I'd say that was the biggest sticking point for me for the best part of 16, 17, 18 years of being a web designer. Definitely. Me too. And I'm going to send this, I'm going to send this episode to Mariah because she truly shifted my mindset around that as well because I, you know, I was raised that you get a job and

Shannon Mattern (20:13.55)

Me too. And I'm going to send this, I'm going to send this episode to Mariah because she truly shifted my mindset around that as well, because I, you know, I was raised that you get a job and your employer decides how much you're worth, you know?

Dave Foy (20:32.71)

And your employer decides how much you're And I'm sure you were too. That's just how it is. Sure, it's how it still is, but it's definitely how it was in the late 90s, early 2000s when I was graduating college and climbing the corporate ladder. And someone else is telling you your value. And then you go into business for yourself. And you have this employee mindset where you're like, if I do a good job and I follow all the rules and I...

Shannon Mattern (20:36.082)

And I'm sure you were too. That's just how, how it is like, or how I sure it's how it still is, but it's definitely how it was in the, you know, late nineties, early two thousands when I was graduating college and climbing the corporate ladder and you know, someone else is like telling you your value and then you go into business for yourself and you have this employee mindset where you're like, if I do a good job and I follow all the rules and I, you know,

Like try to figure out where I fit in the market and, you know, price myself exactly right, but nothing more and nothing less. And, know, who am I to say that I'm worth more? Someone else tells me what I'm worth. So I'm just trying to pick the right price. And I was just like, I did not know any other way to think about it. And then coming across people like Mariah, who kind of started shifting me. And then I just went on a whole expert, my own personal exploration of like money mindset.

to shift from it's not even about me at all. It's about what can you create as a result of working with me? And I also am allowed to charge profitably and sustainably for me, like you said, because if I don't, won't be in business to help you. But even if I am in business and I'm burnt out and I'm resentful and I'm running myself

Dave Foy (21:32.862)

to shift from it's not even about me at all. It's about what can you create as a result of working with me? And I also am allowed to charge profitably and sustainably for me, like you said, because if I don't, I won't be.

Shannon Mattern (22:01.736)

know, ragged and burning the candle at both ends. I cannot provide you with the level of service that you deserve. My brain is not functioning at the capacity that it could be if I was not overworked and all of that. And so I was just like, this is a whole new way of thinking that of course my employer would never want me to think this way because then I would demand more from them.

Dave Foy (22:21.421)

Of course my employer would never want me to think this way because then I would demand more from them. Exactly. That's the key. Ding ding. You almost feel like you're like not to be so dramatic, but like you've come out from under the spell of the brainwashing of, you know.

Shannon Mattern (22:30.286)

And so you almost feel like you're like, not to be so dramatic, but like, you've come out from under the spell of the brainwashing of, you know, what it takes to stay in corporate and be okay with it. once you've is like, once you've broken free, or like, like you experienced, you can never go back, you try to go back every 18 months. And you're like, I can't go back, like,

Dave Foy (22:42.909)

what it takes to stay in corporate and be okay with it and once you've broken free or like you experienced you can never go back. You try to go back every 18 months and you're like I can't go back. The security or whatever is just not worth it because it's actually more it's like you're trapped that's how I felt anyway. Yeah yeah absolutely that's it yeah definitely nail on the head.

Shannon Mattern (22:57.454)

It's not worth the security or whatever is just not worth it because it's actually more it's like you're trapped. That's how I felt anyway.

Shannon Mattern (23:13.368)

So when you did one-on-one client work for 16 years, and I know we have a full spectrum of people at the different stages in their business journey listening to this podcast, but the question everybody always wants to know is how do I get more leads? How do I get more clients? Where do I get clients? Shannon, tell me the magic way of getting clients. And so I'm always curious of.

Dave Foy (23:13.822)

So when you did one-on-one client work for 16 years, and I know we have a full spectrum of people at different stages in their business journey listening to this podcast, but the question everybody always wants to know is how do I get more leads? How do I get more clients? Where do I get clients? Shannon, tell me the magic way of...

getting clients and so I'm always curious of you know anyone who comes on the show is like what did you do to get clients in the early days? How are you growing your audience now? What are what are your like go-to tried-and-true strategies? Yeah well it's important to make the point to start with that the way that I generated leads when I was a web designer when I had my own small agency

Shannon Mattern (23:42.304)

you know, anyone who comes on the show is like, what did you do to get clients in the early days? How are you growing your audience now? What are what are your like go to tried and true strategies?

Dave Foy (24:08.064)

was very very very very different to how I operate now without a doubt. I mean really at the time like I said I had a fear of marketing and a fear of selling really and a kind of a mindset that was more like I'm not a businessman I'm not a marketer I'm just a developer or a designer and so I always really did it the the worst possible way which was just leaving it to chance

Shannon Mattern (24:12.482)

Me too.

Dave Foy (24:35.875)

I mean as it happened I built fantastic websites, gave a great service, kept in touch with clients, got on really really well with clients. Probably went a little bit too far in terms of going the extra mile for clients to my detriment but so I was never ever really short of referrals and recommendations and that kind of thing but I would say that pretty much that was my

strategy in quotes. That was my... Do great work and then wait for people to tell other people and wait for them to find me. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. I, at the time, I mean, we're going back to kind of the mid 2005, six or something like that. I think my website, my business website was doing a lot of the heavy lifting as well.

Shannon Mattern (25:07.446)

do great work and then wait for people to tell other people and wait for them to find me. Yeah.

Dave Foy (25:29.59)

because back in those days, Google search was very different from how it is right now. And a lot of people actually found me via that, via local search, you'll find me because they were looking for a web designer in my area. I happened to be probably one of the only, I'm not trying to say it, like an individual person.

running a web design agency with a website that didn't try to hide behind the third person and the pretending to be the corporate thing. just went, because it's just not me. So I just went completely against all that. And so anybody at that point thinking, right, I'll look for it was very basic. It was simpler times. Web designer, know, my location.

Shannon Mattern (26:06.68)

Yeah.

Dave Foy (26:18.595)

and you were pretty much faced with two or three really big guys they were actually they had huge offices and lots of cars all that kind of thing and then there was me who was just talking to people directly personally in the first person making no attempt to pretend that I was anything else and I think that actually attracted people as well

The other thing I did again at the time which I think is not really a strategy anymore or a tactic anymore at least but I actually did quite a lot of... I didn't really think of it as blogging so much as answering people's questions so anytime anybody asked me questions I don't know about any aspect of web design or any aspect of how web design could help somebody grow their business or solve the business problems

I would write an article about it and I put up, I don't think, they're certainly not online anymore, but I don't think at the time there was anybody else really doing that. again, it comes back to that thing that I wasn't particularly doing it for me as a strategy. I was doing it because I thought it would be helpful. So this whole thing of...

if you can take the focus off yourself and put it on other people how might this help others who are asking these questions so i think that stuff at the time in a far less crowded market at the time much as i say much much simpler times we didn't have well twitter wasn't around then facebook had just probably started

So we didn't have the impact of social media at the time as well. But yeah, that's pretty much how I did it. That's how I attracted leads was pretty much referrals, doing a great job, crossing my fingers very, very tightly and just trying to charge a decent amount of money, which might hopefully tide me over until I managed to get the next project through the door. So yeah, that was in those days.

Dave Foy (28:28.961)

I mean, what I'm doing now is a very, very, very different business anyway. know, then I was working one-to-one. Now I don't do any one-to-one at all. I don't even do, I have, I have dabbled with it, but I've dabbled with kind of like one-to-one coaching and that kind of thing, web design stuff. But generally speaking, I like the one-to-many model. I like, you know, the community aspect and things like that. So.

But yeah, we can talk about how I find customers now and price and all that kind of thing if you like. Yeah, because I think there are still like there are still parallels, right? You know, back when I was first starting out, I would just be like, you know, someone say, what do you do? And I'm like, I'm in marketing, but I also do web design on the side. And they would just be like, my God.

Shannon Mattern (29:05.502)

Yeah, because I think there are still parallels, right? Back when I was first starting out, would just be like, someone say, what do you do? And I'm like, I'm in marketing, but I also do web design on the side. And they would just be like, my gosh, you do? I need help, or my dad needs help, or my company needs help. And it was that easy. But then as I

Dave Foy (29:23.841)

you do, do you like, I need help or my dad needs help or my company needs help. And it was that easy. But then as I started to get more and more into the online space, you know, looking at this opportunity of like one to many, how do I, how do I build an audience for this, you know, affiliate marketing thing that I'm doing?

Shannon Mattern (29:33.248)

started to get more and more into the online space, know, looking at this opportunity of like one to many, how do I, how do I build an audience for this, you know, affiliate marketing thing that I'm doing? It was still relationships, even though I didn't realize it, that it was still like meeting people who were serving the types of people that I wanted to work with.

You know, collaborating with them in some type of way, whether that was like teaching to their audience or doing a workshop or doing like we would do blog interviews back then. which was kind of like the precursor to my podcast. And really it was still just like meeting people that was bringing me to, to my best clients and relationships that led me to opportunities and things like that. And so,

Dave Foy (30:14.612)

And really it was still just like meeting people that was bringing me to my best clients and relationships that led me to opportunities and things like that. so, you know, I still, never marketed my business on social media at all, even though it was like in the heyday of like pre, you know, pay to play because I was a very,

Shannon Mattern (30:26.636)

You know, I still, never marketed my business on social media at all, even though it was like in the heyday of like pre, you know, pay to play because I was a very, I felt like an imposter. I'm very introverted. don't con I never consumed social media. I don't consume it now anyway. And so it just never felt like an authentic strategy for me to get clients and market my business. So I never taught it.

Dave Foy (30:40.064)

I felt like an imposter. I'm very introverted. I never consumed social media. I don't consume it now anyway. And so it just never felt like an authentic strategy for me to get clients and market my business. So I never taught it. I always leaned on relationships. I still do. And so I think what I see now

Shannon Mattern (30:54.784)

I always leaned on relationships. still do. And so I think what I see now though, is web designers trying strategies, like leaning on and relying on strategies that like you and I use now, because we have a one to many business model and they're trying to market a one-to-one business model in a one-to-many way. And then feeling like they're lost and like they're not getting traction when I'm like,

Dave Foy (31:01.567)

though, is web designers trying strategies, like leaning on and relying on strategies that like you and I use now, because we have a one to many business model. And they're trying to market a one to one business model in a one to many way and then feeling like they're lost and like they're not getting traction. When I'm like, all you have to do is just go like go tell someone you're a web designer. You'll get your next client.

Shannon Mattern (31:24.642)

All you have to do is just go like, go tell someone you're web designer and like, you'll get your next client. so I know that was a very meandering way back to how do you market yourself now? And you know, you are growing an audience and things are different. What has shifted for you?

Dave Foy (31:31.456)

So I know that was a very meandering way back to how do you market yourself now? And you know, you are growing an audience and things are different. What has shifted for you? Yeah, I mean, in a way, as you say, there are many, parallels and the the the core the core thing that I was determined to do from the very start was build an audience that I could have a relationship with.

And actually, my goal wasn't ever, still isn't really to scale. I'm not particularly interested in being the kind of like mass marketing with a YouTube channel of five million people, of which a very, very small percentage actually ever give me any money. I would rather have a much, much, much smaller audience who I can...

really help who really I know all the names I know all about them I know what the struggles are you know we've we've got that literally personal relationship I know that many people do want to scale and there's a point where that becomes unsustainable you just cannot have a really large business with a really large audience and know all the names

But for me that was... it's a thing... I think we've both talked about the introverted thing and for me I'm far far happier in a social situation talking to somebody one-to-one having a deep conversation uninterrupted versus the chatty kind of little bit small talk around and about and getting distracted and not really knowing anything about anybody by the end of the evening you know I'd much much prefer that one-to-one connection so

I decided that for me and a lot of this was built around Mariah's teaching on this was all about building an email list so for me at the time and still the whole point was I've got to kind of attract people onto my list because those people I'm not a big social media person either I've seen we've both seen platforms come and go and algorithms change and all that kind of thing

Dave Foy (33:43.199)

So for me, if I can get somebody actually on my email list and we've got that kind of personal connection and really, to boil it right down is attract somebody on the email list by being helpful, maybe offer them some kind of incentive to get on that list in the first place and then ultimately sell them something. That's the very kind of crude version of the funnel. It's very, very, very, very simple. So...

Yeah, my first thing that I did really was start a YouTube channel and just start making videos, which is not as easy as a lot of people might make it out to be. Certainly not to the standard I wanted to make them. So yeah, me quite a long time. I'm still tweaking the process now.

But yeah, just making YouTube videos and giving away something. think lead magnets are maybe becoming a little bit less effective these days because people have had so many of them and they've not delivered and they've not really helped them out. But for me, it's nothing fancy. It's just, you know, I'll make a video and offer somebody just a really simple little cheat sheet based on the steps that we took or a little checklist or maybe an extra little video with just an extension of the thing that I've taught them in the main video.

So it's just little things that would encourage people to kind of give that email list and grow that list. And then it took me a good almost a year to build up, and this sounds really silly now, but it took me almost a year to build up the courage to ask anybody for money. We almost went under because of my fear of asking for money.

But I have always done the pre-sale method, this is again Mariah's thing, of actually offering people to pre-order an idea for a course in order to determine whether people actually want that course, to validate the idea. Which again, you can imagine for somebody who's got a fear of asking people for money, to ask people for money for something that does not exist yet is terrifying. Terrifying.

Dave Foy (36:02.961)

So it took me quite a long time, but I ultimately got over myself anyway. It turned out that when I did ask people for money, they were begging me literally, by that point on a daily basis, please teach us how to do this thing. Just here's my money. So yeah, and it just went extraordinarily well. So I then spent the next, the problem.

So the problem with teaching what I do, is pretty much kind of like teaching software is teaching web design processes and everything else. The problem with all of that is that the software changes all the time. And soon as you're done recording that video. Yes. Yeah. And what happens is I've discovered is that the people that make all this software, apps, plugins, they get together.

Shannon Mattern (36:39.598)

As soon as you're done recording that video, it's changed. Yeah.

Dave Foy (36:54.678)

and all decide behind the scenes that they're gonna make some massive changes just after I've recorded something. They do it on purpose. They did it to me too. Yeah. It's really, really annoying and they need to stop. But yeah, changes all the time. what I kind of realized Mariah Kors was teaching, I didn't do everything based on what Mariah told me to do, but...

Shannon Mattern (37:02.744)

They did it to me too.

You

Dave Foy (37:21.949)

One of the things at the time was the idea of this signature course, like a substantial course that was the answer to that big problem that the audience was experiencing. And I tried to do that. So I'd make one course and then it would be obsolete. then so a year later, I'd have to remake the entire thing. And it'd take me absolutely ages because I'm really slow. I soon discovered, which I've made peace with now, but...

Yeah, I'm really slow, so it takes me a long, time and I'm a real perfectionist and it's got to be right and all that sort of thing. And I ended up in hindsight over the next five, six years, maybe on a bit of a kind of a quite tiring, exhausting cycle of launching a course, pre-sale, big pre-sale, making that course, running maybe one or two other...

kind of big launches to get as much like income as possible so big windfalls every six months or something like that with nothing else in between and then the damn thing would be obsolete again so then i'd have to then they are i cannot i cannot do this again for another i'll just need to just lay down for six months and then i'd finally build up the you know the the energy again and so

Shannon Mattern (38:31.244)

Yeah.

Dave Foy (38:43.292)

I have got to that point now where I have got to the end of that particular road of one-off courses, one-off big ass courses I call them, you know with the launches, the one-off launches and then it all shuts down for a while. I've got to the end of that. It has been fun but I think there is a better way. There's got to be.

Shannon Mattern (39:10.535)

Yeah. So we talked about recurring revenue at the beginning. I very same, which is the reason why I stopped teaching WordPress. Like ultimately, I mean, my interests and the impact that I was having teaching women web designers, how to stop undercharging and over delivering really started to outweigh teaching WordPress for free in exchange for affiliate commissions.

Um, which same thing I'm like, Oh my gosh, I just finished the 2022 update and now they just changed everything or whatever. And I was just like, I can't keep spending my time. I don't want to keep spending my time here. Someone else can, like, I don't want to, you know, so, then shifting into. Like a, like a coaching program where I'm like, gonna work with you really closely over the next year.

Dave Foy (39:54.042)

You know, so and then shifting into like a like a coaching program where I'm like gonna work with you really closely over the next year. Also Mariah's model, which is so funny. I think about like you were saying you were afraid to charge. I was saying I was afraid to charge, but I had no problem paying her money to help me. I didn't think twice about like, yes, here, please take my money. Help me with this thing.

Shannon Mattern (40:05.3)

also Mariah's model, which is so funny. think about like you were saying you were afraid to charge. I was saying I was afraid to charge, but I had no problem paying her money to help me with them. I didn't think twice about like, yes, here, please take my money. Help me with this thing. But I was still like afraid to raise my prices and stuff. So it's so fascinating. know, and then I created, I created that and

The launch model has diminishing returns, at least in my experience, you know, even if you don't, even if the tech doesn't change, it's like, every so often you're like doing a launch again and you're launching and it's just like diminishing and diminishing and, and that gets exhausting and challenging. so.

kind of back to this topic of like recurring revenue. And we, I'm trying to just banish the word launch from my vocabulary altogether. because that's not what we, not what we're doing. It's like, we're like testing this new offer. If, you know, if it works out, then we'll offer it again. We'll offer it again and we'll leave it open and you know, all of that, but, you know, kind of back to what you were talking about earlier.

Dave Foy (41:10.235)

If it works out, then we'll offer it again. We'll offer it again and we'll leave it open and all of that. But kind of back to what you were talking about earlier, shifting to a recurring revenue model, what does that look like for you and how is that going to be different than the big ass course launch model that you were doing before?

Shannon Mattern (41:23.116)

you know, shifting to a recurring revenue model, what does that look like for you and how is that going to be different than, you know, the big ass course launch model that you were doing before?

Dave Foy (41:37.494)

The recurring revenue thing is something that has been a... The talk of recurring revenue has been a kind of real thorn in my side for quite a long time really because it's something that I've resisted for various reasons and I'm sure if I sat down with a therapist that they would give me lots of reasons why. But I think going back to being a web designer I...

couldn't really see a way of having recurring revenue, which I look back now and I think that's just ridiculous. There are so many opportunities. It is absolutely ripe for recurring revenue, you know, all the way from how you actually run the projects in the first place down to your care plans and everything else, all manner of different ways you can offer, you can be paid on a regular basis by clients. But at the time I couldn't really see...

away beyond just charges as much as you can you can get away with for projects and hope for the best so yeah because a project gets finished right that's what people think it's like it's done so the money's done too yeah we know it's never done it's it's a it's a mindset thing definitely and then i when i started to learn how to do the courses thing you know and selling courses

Shannon Mattern (42:34.752)

Yeah, because a project gets finished, right? That's what people think. It's like, it's done. So the money's done too, but we know it's never done, right?

Dave Foy (42:54.082)

The way that I learned how to do it was the big launch, the whole shebang really, the one-off course model. And I suppose one of the things that I always have in mind when it comes to recurring revenue is, with what I'm doing now, the teaching thing, is that I know that my, I don't know what you might call it, my energy levels or attention or whatever it is,

tends to kind of ebb and flow a bit as well so I'm which is probably partly because of the launch model you know you do a big launch and you've got to lay down for two weeks not speak to anybody because you just utterly exhausted it's like a massive buzz huge stress which is mostly enjoyable and then crash for two weeks pretty much so it's probably got that's probably got to do with it you know it's quite ironic really but

Yeah, just the thought of I know that my energy levels are up and down and so I Well, not up and down, but they're just like I said, they just ebb and flow And my real worry is you know, if I'm going to be committing myself to something recurring and providing some sort of recurring value I am going to have to be on on a recurring basis as well Can I promise to do that? Where in some ways the idea of do a massive launch. I mean I'm always

I'm always supporting my students, right? So I'm always spending a chunk of the day supporting students, helping them out and everything else. So that's not like I just disappear. But the thought of if I do want to just do just go away for two months, then I could do and I wouldn't have to worry because I've sold somebody a one-off course with pretty much no other commitments. So it was all of that kind of resistance really that that's been

that's been there for so long. I remember talking to, I don't know if you've come across Troy Dean before, know Troy Dean, the Aussie. Dean, I don't think I've consumed any of his Yeah, Troy, well Troy actually does a fairly similar thing to you, I suppose, in that he started off with his business was called WP Elevation.

Shannon Mattern (44:53.73)

I've heard the name, but I don't think I've consumed any of his content or anything.

Dave Foy (45:09.474)

and then WP Elevation eventually became Agency Mavericks, which is essentially helping, yeah, essentially helping web designers find work and charge more and everything else. It talks lot about paid discovery and all kinds of things, but Troy's been doing it for a long, time. Well, we collaborated on a course eight years ago now, probably about four years ago.

Shannon Mattern (45:13.154)

Hmm. That's why I've heard of him. Yeah.

Dave Foy (45:34.826)

He came across to England from Australia to record this course together. It was great. We had really great fun. was brilliant. But I remember being on a train one day anyway. It's quite, quite, quite loud. And he said, so what's what's what's your recurring revenue then, Dave? I'm not going to do the accent. What's your recurring revenue then, Dave? I was like, sorry, what?

I need to change the subject because I know what he's going to say. And he was absolutely outraged. I remember he was like, what? Just loads of people on the train kind of look around. He said, I just can't, you've got, you've got to literally, we get off this train and we're coming up with some way that you can find some recurring revenue because what you're doing at the moment is not sustainable.

and I just ignored him pretty much so that was that was one of the first times that somebody really tried to rattle my stupid head and say you've got to get this sorted out which I didn't and then the other person is my wife has been talking to me has been saying this for years and years and years and years and she knows full well that it takes quite a lot of time to get through my head as well so

She's been one of the other people as well who said, you know, you are seriously, seriously missing a trick. In fact, you're performing a disservice to your students pretty much by not offering some kind of recurring value. And I think in the end, what has really, really convinced me is just getting to the point where the standalone...

one-off big ass courses with the big launches cannot continue for my own sanity and my wife's at least so what I'm gonna do is essentially create a community so rather than being one-off courses create a community it's gonna be for a very very specific kind of web designer very specifically kind of like the non coders the non-technical the people who

Dave Foy (47:50.935)

pretty much frightened by all the kind of like, developery. don't intend to hide that from them, but I just intend to help demystify it and make it friendly and make it something that they can achieve. But it's gonna be very, very much away from, you know, the kind of... Some communities are very exclusive. They have a real kind of exclusivity and cliquey-ness about them.

And I want this to be, you know, there is no study question kind of thing. But what I've got in mind is moving away from, I'm still obviously going to teach, there's still basically going to be the kind of courses in quotes that I've been doing now. But what I want to do is what I've wanted to do for years, but I've been stuck in this mindset of signature course, you know.

when things have moved on. So what my idea is, is just to create on an ongoing regular basis, mini courses, mini modules, very, very, very specific outcomes. know, one very, very specific outcome. That might be one lesson. It might be maybe a series of five. I think if it's more than five, it's probably trying to buy off more than it can chew and it needs to be broken up into separate things. But

But I know I've got an idea of I've worked with my ideal audience. I have maybe one or two people in mind when I'm thinking of this, know, very specific people who I know what they struggle with. I know what their journey is. I know what they need to know. And when I've got a really big picture, a good idea of what the big picture is of all the different balls that they need to have in the air.

and all that kind of thing. And I know that just in a community, I know that with the courses that I've done, the community has actually been my favorite part, bizarrely, after all that I've said. You know, they're just for now, it's been like just Facebook communities and things like that. But sometimes those communities have been such great fun. People have really got to know each other. They've become such a just a fantastic place.

Dave Foy (50:04.502)

And I've not been able to sustain it because I've not been charging for the for the thing and So really that's that's that's what's changing this year. I mean pretty much in the next couple of weeks I'll be getting the bare bones of it getting started starting inviting some people in But yeah, I've got I've got I've got a really good idea about what it's gonna be and nice the very precise logistics of it I'm gonna see what

I'm just gonna just do it and start from there and and build what people actually tell me that they want rather than me guessing upfront and it probably missing the mark. I totally love that model and I can relate to a lot of what you said too because...

Shannon Mattern (50:44.654)

I, I totally love that model and I can relate to a lot of what you said too, because I didn't realize the value of the community that I had built. was just like, whenever you offer a course, you just also put a community together because that's where my team and I go to support you in with your questions as you, as you go. And I accidentally create a.

created a recurring revenue model because I had like a 12 month payment plan for my program. And then after a year, people were like, well, I don't want to go. Can I stay? And I'm like, yeah, sure. You can stay. then like, let's just, you you can keep paying me every month. And so it was like very accidental that I kind of like came upon recurring revenue and then

Dave Foy (51:17.872)

for my program and then after a year people were like well I don't want to go can I stay and I'm like yeah sure you can stay and then like let's just you know you can keep paying me every month and so it was like very accidental that I kind of like came upon recurring revenue and then act like I did not value the community in my program as much as the people in the community valued the community I did not realize

Shannon Mattern (51:36.47)

Like I did not value the community in my program as much as the people in the community valued the community. I did not realize what was going on. Like I'm in there, I see everything, but I didn't realize the camaraderie that was happening. like, thank goodness this person asked this question because I was afraid to ask and they asked it for me and now I feel like I'm being supported and I want to be in here and my confidence is building and

when she asks about feeling like an imposter and like I hear what Shannon says to her about that. Now I'm getting help and I was like, my gosh, like this community is like a gift to everyone in this community. And I did not realize it. And one of the things that you mentioned, so we were chatting before this will be a weird time to bring this up, but you and I were chatting before this.

Dave Foy (52:29.429)

This will be a weird time to bring this up because we were chatting before this before we hit record because you have this now page on your website so davefoy.com slash now and I was like, yeah, let me just brush up on Dave before I hit record on this podcast and you had mentioned that in 2024 you took a year off from drinking and about eight months ago I decided like I'm I'm done with that.

Shannon Mattern (52:33.262)

before we hit record because you have this now page on your website. So DaveFoy.com slash now. And I was like, oh yeah, let me just brush up on Dave before I hit record on this podcast. And you had mentioned that in 2024, you took a year off from drinking. And about eight months ago, I decided like, I'm done with that. And the reason I bring this up now,

Dave Foy (52:59.549)

And the reason I bring this up now is because one of the reasons I think that I upon reflection, I wouldn't have been able to tell you this eight months ago. But upon reflection, the reason that I kept an arm's distance from my community is because I felt like I had to be on and there were mornings that I didn't feel like I was on or

Shannon Mattern (53:02.836)

is because one of the reasons I think that I upon reflection, I wouldn't have been able to tell you this eight months ago, but upon reflection, the reason that I kept an arms distance from my community is because I felt like I had to be on and there were mornings that I didn't feel like I was on or so I wanted to kind of keep this thing a little bit separate.

because I'm like, I feel cobwebby today. We went out last night. I don't feel like I'm on my A game. So therefore, if I don't fully embrace this thing, I can keep it as at arm's length and have it be like a feature, but not like the thing that I really talk about. And so when I read that on your page, it just made me think because recently I've had a lot of like, I've gone to events or different things and I order a club soda and people are like,

You don't drink and I'm like, no. And then they get curious and they ask more questions. And I say, I had many realizations, but one of the realizations that I had was that I was scheduling my life around when I wasn't going to feel good in the morning. And the older I get, like it just kind of crept up on me. Right. So I'm like 45. I'm not 20 anymore, you know, and it just crept up on me and.

Dave Foy (54:06.668)

I had many realizations, but one of the realizations that I had was that I was scheduling my life around when I wasn't gonna feel good in the morning. And the older I get, like it just kind of crept up on me, right? So I'm like 45, I'm not 20 anymore. It gets harder. That's on me.

Shannon Mattern (54:27.072)

I haven't talked about this on the podcast, but when we were talking about like community and running a business and why we structure our businesses the way that we do, I can see in hindsight that some of the structures I put in place were so that I could like manage something that was becoming unmanageable for lack of a better description.

Dave Foy (54:28.252)

about this on the podcast, but when we're talking about like community and running a business and why we structure our businesses the way that we do, I can see in hindsight that some of the structures I put in place were so that I could like manage something that was becoming unmanageable.

For lack of a better description. Oh, absolutely. Everything you say. I mean, I'm furiously nodding away to everything that you're saying here. Definitely. There are so many reasons. think, I mean, the whole thing about drinking alcohol is that it's just such a baked in part of our culture. It's absolutely, I mean, it seems obvious to say it, but it is absolutely everywhere. So...

Shannon Mattern (54:57.422)

Ha ha ha!

Shannon Mattern (55:12.61)

For sure.

Dave Foy (55:19.079)

to think about not drinking at all, to even have an awareness. It reminds me a little bit of like a fish isn't aware that it's in water. It's one of those things. It's just everywhere. To such an extent, you don't even realize why you're drinking it or what effect it has. The impact that it has on so many different things. I mean, I come from a family which...

Shannon Mattern (55:26.433)

Yes.

Dave Foy (55:48.947)

the male, not all of them, but the male side of the family going back generations tends to enjoy a drink or two. We're from Irish descent and think that's the thing. high so... Yeah, there you go. It's in the genes. Yeah. So I'm kind of aware of what's happened to members of my family as a result of drinking. And I actually, I won't tell the whole story, but you know...

Shannon Mattern (55:58.894)

As have I, so, you know. Yeah.

Dave Foy (56:17.427)

the very quick version is that I really my teens and even my 20s I actually didn't really care less about drinking I really wasn't that bothered I mean I would do and I go along with it but it wasn't something that I really really bothered about too much and actually even when I met my wife which was 23 years ago four years ago now something like that

um she says now she's looking back you know you didn't really you didn't seem really seem that bothered about drinking at all at the time but i think it's one of those things that it just it just picked up it's what you just you just don't realize i mean another analogy is that the frog slowly boiling in water doesn't realize that the temperature is rising you know

Shannon Mattern (57:01.88)

Yep.

Dave Foy (57:02.77)

and yeah and it just picked up and picked up and alcohol alcohol is rather moreish you know it is an addictive substance and yeah I found myself just just I think just using it much more and more and more as like a distraction and a distraction from hard feelings probably and a distraction from having to to take responsibility for certain things

and also a little bit of just like peer pressure. I've got lot of friends that really love to drink like a lot. So there's a lot of that kind of thing going on as well. Lots and lots of worries about I'm gonna end up with no friends. Like what do I do? You know, they're all out meeting up at the pub. What do I do about that? So I went through many, many times of stopping or moderating and then thinking, no, I can't moderate.

Shannon Mattern (57:47.47)

Yeah.

Dave Foy (57:58.46)

doesn't work so I'll try I'll try stopping and I would stop for sometimes six months maybe even nine months and it was like it'd be absolutely great but my core mindset hadn't really changed particularly and so it would add I'd think I just have one which would very very quickly very very quickly would snowball out of control again so

Yeah, I... really just... It just got to the point. It was New Year's Eve 2023. The last... know, the New Year's Eve at the end of 23. And I don't know where it came from, but I... Just lots and lots of things hit me at once and I thought, do you know what? I'm just not going to drink this year. One year, right? I'll just do it for one year. It's a significant amount of time without it being forever. We'll just see how it goes.

and it was a really really interesting year actually it was a year of lots of stress personally it was it was just long story we built our own house a few years ago and we ended up deciding to move back to the area that we'd come from we didn't really like the you know what we'd done but anyway so it was quite a stressful year we're trying to sell a house and trying to move house and everything else and lots of other things going on as well

And so it's really interesting year of actually starting to, mean, I do meditate a lot and I really get a lot of value from meditation, but not drinking really made me able over time over there within about sort of three months. took took a while to actually be able to just dispassionately observe myself and just look at myself and just look at just the

We're going to get a bit deep really, but look at the human condition, is just want to constantly be distracted, constantly, you know, need to be not facing up to sort of emotions and feelings and hard, the hard realities of life really. And, and yet all the other things about how, wow, I have, I went out last night with some friends and look at me.

Dave Foy (01:00:16.977)

8 o'clock in the morning, I'm off out for a walk, I'm off out to the gym, or I'm on a call, or I'm smashing an email newsletter out and feeling good about it. Wow, this is, this is pretty good. And so, yeah, but that thing of just watching, like actually learning to sit with the hard stuff, not the hard liquor, the hard feelings, you know, the hard emotions, the hard, just those things that just come up and...

because you've been suppressing it all your life pretty much it comes up with a vengeance for quite a long time but I must say I don't be good I don't care what anybody else does I'm more I was at a wedding for a very good friend at the weekend everybody was absolutely by midnight it was carnage all around and I've got to the point where I just feel really

don't know what the word is. I was gonna say strong, but it doesn't even feel like that really. It's just completely natural. I was having a great time. I got to the point, like I do with parties, whether I'm drunk or not, because of the introvert thing, my social battery's gone. And I've learned now it's time to go home. And so it got to a certain point. said, right, I'm off now. You know, everyone have a great rest of the night. I'll see you a lot in the morning. So.

But yeah, and so anyway, so I got to the end of 2024 and I just thought this is just great. I do not want to carry on. So that's pretty much it. been a good year and a year and two months or so at the time I was recording anyway. But I just feel like I'm trying not to sound like Captain Smug because I really don't care why.

Shannon Mattern (01:01:58.446)

you

Dave Foy (01:02:11.514)

about anybody else how they manage their life at all but I feel just like a stronger person overall you know there's hard stuff in life comes up the emotions still come up the nerves still come up the anxieties the imposter syndrome all of those kind of things they don't go away they still come up but I just somehow just feel stronger for exercising the muscle

over and over and over again over a year or so of dealing with those things and realizing, huh, I'm fine, I'm here, you know and the cravings occasionally still come up and I think, oh, do you know what, I could murder a beer now but I think, well, just sit with it because I know full well that in half an hour's time I am going to be thanking my past self for not caving in and sure enough, half an hour later I'm thinking,

Thank the Lord I didn't have a drink. I relate to a lot of what you said especially the you know the the one biggest difference is that I just can't stay up late. I'm sure there are a lot of big differences I shouldn't say that's the one biggest one but the thing that people notice the most about me and I'm I'm realizing like I drank to fit in with my friends and I'm 45 years old like that

Shannon Mattern (01:03:12.654)

I relate to a lot of what you said, especially the, you know, the, the one biggest difference is that I just can't stay up late. I'm sure there are a lot of big differences. I shouldn't say that's the one biggest one, but the thing that people notice the most about me and I'm, realizing like, I drank to fit in with my friends and I'm 45 years old. Like that part of you that doesn't want to be excluded or, you know, whatever. And, know,

I'm sure to turn off the anxiety in my mind, which that's a perpets, you know, that cycle perpetuates itself, right? Because it turned the alcohol turns it off, but it just comes roaring back at 3 a.m. after that's that's worn off. But the thing that I have noticed when you say you just feel like stronger, like my driving core value or the reason why I do everything I do is just like freedom and autonomy. I don't want anybody else telling me what I can do.

When I can do it, you I want to help other people create whatever life they want to create for themselves. And for me personally, I feel more free than I ever did. And I thought that drinking was creating freedom for me. Like that's what I felt like when I did drink that like, now I get to like blow off some steam and like, this is, this is freedom. And then I realized for myself, and I'm like, you, I don't care what anybody else does.

Dave Foy (01:04:24.217)

thought that drinking was creating freedom for me. Like that's what I felt like when I did drink that like, now I get to like blow up some steam and like, this is this is freedom. And then I realized for myself, and I'm like, I don't care what anybody else does. I still go to like to all the same places that I did. Like I do all the same things with all the same people. They can they have whatever in their hand that they have. And I have what I have and nobody's, you know.

Shannon Mattern (01:04:39.456)

I still go to all the same places that I did. I do all the same things with all the same people. They have whatever in their hand that they have. And I have what I have and nobody's judging anybody else. Because most people are like that and our worst fears in our head are from when we're 10 years old and we're afraid we're going to get picked on or whatever. But I feel more free than ever.

through that, I feel like I have a greater capacity to, to do all of the things that I want to do in my business. Whereas before the commitment of recurring revenue or the commitment of running a community or the commitment I would feel if someone's going to pay me long-term, I didn't realize that that was part of why I didn't feel like I could show up. Cause I never would have admitted that to myself while it was happening.

to be like, one of the reasons why is like, I don't feel physically capable, physically and mentally capable of supporting these people at this level over the long term, because I am leaking that capacity out through my, how I'm taking care of myself or not taking care of myself. So yeah, I could, I just.

Dave Foy (01:05:46.926)

because I am leaking that capacity out through my how I'm taking care of myself or not taking care of myself. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, I just, it's been eight months for me and I just don't like I'll have dreams sometimes that I like drank and then I wake up and I'm like, thank God that was a dream. Yeah. Like, yeah, I feel like I

Shannon Mattern (01:05:59.722)

It's been eight months for me and I just don't like I'll have dreams sometimes that I like drank and then I wake up and I'm like, thank God that was a dream. Like.

Dave Foy (01:06:12.59)

Because I'm you you don't drink you still get tired You still sometimes don't feel up to it for whatever reason or you might get sick or anything else Which is fine, but I don't want the added complication of actually imposing that inflicting that on myself in the first place really and for what you know, if you think I think now that If I thought well, I needed the alcohol to help me socialize for instance

Shannon Mattern (01:06:17.346)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (01:06:25.122)

That's it.

Shannon Mattern (01:06:30.659)

Yeah.

Dave Foy (01:06:42.641)

well i've realized that it's actually the same i don't i still struggle a little bit you know i get into a big group of people and i do still struggle a bit i still have a bit of the kind of anxiety and

And once I'm going, I'm absolutely fine. And that is exactly the same whether I've had a drink or I've not had a drink. And so what's the point really? Yeah, I know. I'd have anxiety about it and be like, well, I have a drink, but I don't want to get too drunk. I don't want to think that they like I don't want them to, you know, and it's just like all of that chatter is just like gone.

Shannon Mattern (01:07:05.634)

Yeah, I know I'd have anxiety about it and be like, well, I have a drink, but I don't want to get too drunk. I don't want to think that they like, I don't want them to, you know, and it's just like, all of that chatter is just like gone. And it's a beautiful thing.

Dave Foy (01:07:18.023)

Yeah, that was one of the things about... Beautiful thing. Yeah, one thing I realized was that I was constantly calculating. So it's a constant calculation of, right, so I had a drink on Saturday night. Can I get... I could maybe get away with a cup on Sunday, best not on the Monday and trying to kind of... all the timings and just the whole thing really is actually quite exhausting. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (01:07:41.706)

Yeah, so good. I know we talked about so many different things and we're like, over an hour, I could talk to you for two more hours. I know I was supposed to manage the time, but it was such a good conversation. I didn't want to stop. Can you tell everyone where they can go to learn more about you and what you're up to and get on your newsletter list so that they can

Dave Foy (01:07:43.591)

So good. I know we talked about so many different things and we're like over an hour. can talk to you for two more hours. I know I was supposed to manage the time, but it was such a good conversation. didn't want to stop. Can you tell everyone where they can go to learn more about you and what you're up to and get on your newsletter list so that they can be notified when you have.

Shannon Mattern (01:08:05.516)

be notified when you have some of these amazing ways that you help people come open for them to participate in.

Dave Foy (01:08:07.425)

some of these amazing ways that you help people come open for them to participate in. Yeah, thank you. Well, the main website is DaveFoy.com. It's in need of a little bit of an update at the moment because of the new direction with the memberships and all that sort of thing. But yeah, DaveFoy.com. you can get, I think there's a link on there for newsletter. I've actually started, which seems to have been really popular, which I'm pleased about.

I started a little thing every Friday called Foils Friday Five because I love a bit of alliteration. I've been doing it. I think I released, I'm releasing edition number seven tomorrow and it's really just like five things for web designers that are just useful, funny, thought provoking, that kind of thing. It's going down extremely well. So yeah, so I'm doing that on my newsletter at the moment.

Yeah, that's there. And on my website, there's a link to my YouTube channel as well, which I'm making videos as well. yeah, DaveFoy.com is the place to go. Amazing. Well, thank you so, so much for being here. This was such a good conversation. I'll link up your website and newsletter in the show notes. And yeah, I just really appreciate you being here. Fantastic. Thank you very, very much indeed. Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Shannon Mattern (01:09:12.66)

Amazing. Well, thank you so, so much for being here. This was such a good conversation. I'll link up your website and newsletter in the show notes. And yeah, I just, really appreciate you being here.