#105 – How to Break Through to your Next Level with Sarah Guilliot

Shannon Mattern (00:02.375)

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Profitable Web Designer podcast. Today I am joined by Sarah Guilliot, who is a sales page designer and copywriter. And she has 20 years of experience in web design and UX architecture. And she is a member of the Web Designer Academy and her next level mastermind. And a lot of the copy that you have read in some of my emails and sales pages came out.

from Sarah G. So I'm so excited to have her here just to talk about her business journey and what she's really been able to create as part of our programs and just all of the awesome things that you've learned along the way. So Sarah, welcome to the show.

Sarah Guilliot (00:54.008)

Thanks Shannon, I'm really excited to be here.

Shannon Mattern (00:57.223)

So let's go back into our time machine that you've been doing this for 20 years. Tell me, like, how did you even get started in the design space back in the day?

Sarah Guilliot (01:12.802)

Yeah, so I majored in art in college and I was like, I think I want to do something with computers. so I did that. They didn't have much back then for the, what we have, you know, things have changed a lot over the years. So I entered the design world. I worked my way up from like my first job was as a yellow pages designer. That was exciting. You can imagine how thrill.

thrilling that was and then worked my way up over the years to like senior graphic designer and then UX architect, which is where I spent the last five years of my career at GoDaddy. So I just really, you know, spanned that whole space of like trying all the different kinds of design work. But it was at GoDaddy where I was like,

I know, I reached an age where I was starting to question if I still liked being in corporate and I was tired of what was happening there. And I think I was actually was a little bit burned out on design. And then I was like, I think I want to start my own thing. And then that was what sort of led me into entrepreneurship.

Shannon Mattern (02:26.375)

can completely relate to getting to a certain age for me, it was like 35 where I'm like, wait a minute, what? Like I'm being treated like I'm a teenager and have less freedom now at this corporate job than I did as like a high school student, perhaps, or a college kid. And so that was my driving, driving reason for wanting to break out on my own.

Sarah Guilliot (02:45.942)

Mm -hmm.

Shannon Mattern (02:56.103)

For you, how did you start, like, how did you make the transition? Did you just like peace out and leave? Did you get some clients? Like, what happened?

Sarah Guilliot (03:08.556)

Yeah, so it's interesting. I started to dream about having my own business and that was not anything, like I didn't come from a entrepreneurial family. We were all like, you get a job and you stay at your job. So I was like, this is weird, I don't know. And I was just terrified about all things business. And I was talking to my bestie at work. We were talking about like, ooh, maybe we could start some sort of like Etsy empire together and just.

dreaming about things, sneaking off to conference rooms and pretending we were working on work, but really we were working on our businesses. So I initially at that point, was like, I think I want something that I discovered what passive income was. I was like, I think I want some sort of passive income thing because I'm tired of working with clients. And so I tried various things, actually funnily enough, and I haven't shared this on a lot of podcasts, but the first thing that I ended up trying was

I thought, I'm gonna build an empire selling ebooks. And I bought a course and I learned about like hiring a ghost writer to write a book for you. And I did that. And then I didn't like the results and I didn't want to put my name on it. And I ended up editing it. And then I'm like, I'm gonna write my next book myself. So I wrote another book. So I have a total of two books over on Amazon. They're kind of embarrassing. You can go look me up if you want, but they're old and outdated. That was the first thing I tried.

but I was just like on this path of like, need something that's going to make me happier. Maybe I'm tired of working with clients. but I was just sort of, I was still at work. I was making good money. I had all the benefits, you know, or two income household with me and my husband. And I just couldn't quite make the switch. And I was dreaming about it and thinking like, well, if I could get enough from my Etsy shop, because at the time I started

selling these Photoshop mockups on Etsy. And like, if I could get enough, maybe that would create this runway where I could make the escape. But it just wasn't happening. And I had all the fears. And then my husband had a stroke and he was just, he was in his thirties. I didn't think he could have a stroke in your thirties. And I was pregnant at the time. And I remember being in the hospital room with him, like in the dark, he's sleeping and thinking, wow, you know, I don't want to be

Sarah Guilliot (05:32.234)

He wasn't on his deathbed, but I was like, I don't want to be on my deathbed having never tried just because I was afraid. And so he fully recovered from that, by the way. But that was the catalyst for me where I'm like, I got to stop being afraid and start figuring out how to make this work. And then when I looked at it from that fresh perspective, I realized I had a buffer of money that I hadn't considered, which was the stock that I had from GoDaddy.

Shannon Mattern (05:35.419)

Yeah.

Sarah Guilliot (06:00.13)

And I had enough that it would be able to carry us. You know, we tightened up the purse strings a little bit for a little while while I gave this business thing a try. And yeah, then I gave notice and went on my way and it was, yeah, it's, it didn't happen overnight, but that was how I made the leap out, you know, away from like the golden handcuffs of corporate into entrepreneurship.

Shannon Mattern (06:29.459)

that story resonates with me so much. you know, like your husband's stroke, I'm so glad that he recovered. And just like having that be a moment where you're like, is this, is the life that I'm living the way that I'm living it now worth, like, is it worth not going after this? You know, do I wanna, do I wanna stay here? That's just so powerful. So.

Sarah Guilliot (06:52.91)

Mm

Shannon Mattern (06:58.339)

you leave corporate, you're on your own, and what does your business look like at that time? And then how does it progress from there?

Sarah Guilliot (07:11.308)

Yeah, so around that time, had been selling these mock -up files on Etsy. And then I discovered the world of online courses. And I purchased Mariah Kazza's Launcher Signature course. And she's amazing.

Shannon Mattern (07:24.815)

I love Mariah Kauz's stuff. Side note, by the way, our whole web designer academy is based on her structure that she taught. I don't know if she teaches it anymore on how to serve individuals at a high level in a group container. And I love the format so much. Yeah, she's awesome. Sorry to interrupt. Continue.

Sarah Guilliot (07:36.578)

Mm -hmm.

Sarah Guilliot (07:45.496)

Mm -hmm.

Sarah Guilliot (07:49.728)

Yeah, no, no, she's really great. And I found that the things that she taught really stand the test of time. I've even gone back, you know, it's like eight years later and I've been like, I remember she had some stuff about like this particular email sequence. I'm to go back and see what she had to say about that. And so I'm still, I still go back and look at it. But yeah, so I bought her a course, which also side note on that.

Shannon Mattern (08:00.517)

Mm -hmm.

Sarah Guilliot (08:14.222)

I learned that was the first time I learned about people like, you know, raising prices with launches, cause she had it for like $200 and then she had it for 400. And I was like, I'm going to get it next time she launches it. And then it was a thousand and I was like, I got to get in now. And that's where I first learned about like these increased prices and yeah. So I got into there. I launched a course. I found another friend who was more influential. did like a webinar together. We had.

over a thousand people sign up for this webinar because this is my first webinar ever, right? Because she was a Facebook ads expert and she likes like, I'll throw $600 on some ads and we'll see what happens. And yeah, and I got my first cohort of students. And so I learned a ton from that process. yeah, so since I was selling these mock -up files that I'd created inside of...

Shannon Mattern (09:02.043)

What were you teaching?

Sarah Guilliot (09:09.998)

Photoshop, they were specialized for Etsy sellers selling custom water bottles and tumblers and things that they would coat with glitter and stuff. So I created a special kind of Photoshop file, which made it easier for them to create their listing images without taking photos. So I decided to teach how to do that. So was teaching people Photoshop 101 and how to make mockups using Photoshop. And I got 19 students and went down that.

that pathway of having this course. I discovered that I liked the process. I didn't necessarily like launching for me, but I liked the whole process of launching and I'd already had experience with sales pages from corporate. And then I was writing emails and I really enjoyed the process, but I didn't like being a course owner. And so I was like, I don't know what I should do next. And I was in a coaching program.

with Elizabeth Buckley Goddard and someone said, why don't you do services? I feel like you'd be really good at that. They're like for the level of attention that you give people, I think you'd be really good at that. And I was like, you know, I was kind of burned out on these, but maybe I'll give it a try. So funnily enough, even though I was a designer, the first thing that I sold as a service was launch emails to another person that was in the group.

And they got like a 25 % increase in conversions from their, their launch. And that was the first like copywriting project I'd made. then, so from there, I was like, okay, services are so much easier for making money than these like courses that I have to build a big group for and have a big following. And I didn't enjoy that process. So maybe services are okay. If I get to choose who my clients are and I get to do work that I enjoy instead of being like trapped in corporate with whoever.

they give me. And so then I went down this path and I was like, well, since I was a designer, I'm going to sell web design services. And then slowly over time, was like, people were giving me their copy and it wasn't good. I have to edit this for you, even if they gave it from a copywriter sometimes. And I started incorporating copy and then I was doing like everything. And then, as you know, maybe I'm getting ahead on my story here, but I ended up pairing all that back.

Sarah Guilliot (11:35.724)

to, I was scared to do this for a while, but I ended up pairing it all back to just copy alone and then eliminating the design piece. And that's been a really, I don't know, it's been a really fun journey. And now I feel like I've, I found my place.

Shannon Mattern (11:51.333)

my gosh, our stories are like so parallel in a weird, weird way. But I do love being a course creator and a coach and a teacher and a mentor more than I love one -on -one services. I think that's kind of where we split off. But like there is such a heavy lift of

when you want to sell digital products, courses, know, things like that, that you have to build a big audience. There's a lot of marketing to do. There's a lot of moving pieces like launching and creating consistent content, like staying in front of the audience, keeping them engaged and serving them while you're serving them in between when you're selling. And I like doing all of that stuff. I find it really, really fun.

Sarah Guilliot (12:26.956)

Mm

Shannon Mattern (12:46.935)

And also when I was working at my day job, trying to replace my income to quit, it was a lot of work to try to do on the side of a full -time demanding job. And I also had the realization for as much as like in the very beginning, I was like, not knowing how to price or deliver or hold boundaries or anything, like it was a mess.

Sarah Guilliot (12:58.946)

Mm -hmm.

Shannon Mattern (13:17.147)

And then I'm like, I can't work with clients. I can't provide services because like this is unsustainable. Like, and I just didn't know that I could do it differently. So then I veered off into courses, but then I'm like, I don't know at what point this is going to like grow to like grow to the point where I can replace my day job income. But I do know what will make me that much money now that my pricing mindset has been fixed. Like

getting a web design project, like, that's so much, like to just get one $5 ,000 client is so much easier than trying to sell $500, $100 digital courses. And so that was like my, like just trial and error and hustle and, and, you know, like coming to the realization of like,

Sarah Guilliot (13:46.023)

Mm -hmm. Yep. Yep.

Sarah Guilliot (13:55.843)

Mm

Sarah Guilliot (14:00.654)

Exactly.

Shannon Mattern (14:16.007)

Well, the problem was me. didn't know how to like hold boundaries, package, price position, market and sell. was just like, you want this? Okay. Here's how much I cost an hour. Never ending. And all of the, I shouldn't charge them for that. Cause it was my fault. And like just all of this crap that we go through to, I'm never doing that again. I'm going all in on courses to being like, okay, this is just,

Sarah Guilliot (14:30.296)

You

Shannon Mattern (14:45.357)

I see the point, but it's like five years away and I don't want to work at the state job that long to being like, I bet I could fix like working with clients again and actually make that, make that work, which I did. And then it was like, okay, that works. And I've fixed it so well. I don't know if that's a proper sentence. I fixed it so well that I want, I was so excited about how well I fixed it that I wanted to help other people fix it too.

Sarah Guilliot (14:58.24)

Yeah!

Sarah Guilliot (15:08.917)

You

Sarah Guilliot (15:14.51)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Shannon Mattern (15:14.789)

because I knew I was not the only one in that hot mess express of a situation with clients, but I just, our stories are so similar because I think we were both chasing the same thing. Like I was chasing freedom. Like what were you chasing?

Sarah Guilliot (15:23.0)

Yeah.

Sarah Guilliot (15:32.086)

Yes, exactly. Freedom. That was like my number one thing that I'm always after. Freedom. Like I want to be able to, you know, my kids are sick. I want to stay home without feeling like I have to beg for time off or, you know, any of that stuff. And yeah, absolutely. Freedom is where it's at. And also, you know, when you're talking about like courses versus services, it's funny. I feel like the thing that most held me back from being a course creator,

was holding space for people inside the course. find that draining just as an introvert and wanting one -on -one and limited energy. I love to teach and I would get actually a lot of compliments about my courses that they were so clear and easy to understand and that actually helps me a lot in my writing. But I always admire how well you hold space for everyone.

in your programs, Shannon, and it's like, all feel like you know what's going on with us and you know the background and you know like what's hidden under the surface and the mind trash and all that good stuff and can help steer us to, you know, in the direction that you know we want to go. So that holding space piece is like a real, it's a real skill, it's real talent.

Shannon Mattern (16:47.537)

Well, thank you. I will receive that compliment and I appreciate it. I leave our coaching calls every week. We do two of them, one for our regular web designer academy, one for our next level. I leave those on a high. There's never a time that I have left one of those calls feeling like, my gosh, I need a nap. It energizes me and it's really interesting.

Sarah Guilliot (16:50.909)

You

Shannon Mattern (17:16.345)

You say it's a skill. don't know. I don't know where I picked it up. think it just is like, I think it just, I don't know, maybe it's a gift because I don't know where I learned it, but I do know that I love it. And it's just, it's really, really fun. So thank you. I appreciate that, that compliment. So you have worked with,

Sarah Guilliot (17:27.854)

Mm

Sarah Guilliot (17:35.884)

Yeah, of course.

Shannon Mattern (17:43.257)

a couple of people that I follow and admire and have connected with in the industry, like Paige Brunton and Claire Pelitro. I've had Paige on the podcast. Claire, I've been in a couple of mastermind groups with and different things. So how did you like?

And I look up to them, I think of them as like big players in the space. And I don't know if that's like, if you think of that, but like, how did you, how did you create those relationships and create those opportunities to do work like that? Because I think that that's something that you are gifted at is creating relationships and opportunities.

Sarah Guilliot (18:29.838)

thank you. I think that's what it comes down to is those, it's the relationship. like for Paige, I joined her program when I was first starting out doing web design. tried WordPress, did not work for my brain. And then I tried Squarespace. I was like, okay.

Shannon Mattern (18:48.784)

you

Sarah Guilliot (18:55.276)

this is it for me. Cause I was struggling to make things look the way I wanted them to on WordPress. And then I wasn't able, I'm like, I want a blog, but I was just like, I can't make it look pretty with Squarespace. It was easy. And then I could get to the writing, you know? So, but I was like, well, how do I use this for my business? And, know, I need some structure. And so I joined Paige's course and I learned like her two week process and you know, really got to know everything going on in there. and I was,

Shannon Mattern (18:59.911)

Yeah.

Sarah Guilliot (19:23.762)

starting to niche down to sales pages. I like, I'm gonna make a name for myself as the sales page person because I'd done so many in corporate. And landing pages and sales pages for the website building tools that GoDaddy is selling or the phones at T -Mobile. They're selling. So since I was making a name for myself there.

Shannon Mattern (19:46.353)

Sales pages that make companies millions and millions of dollars, by the way. Just wanting to point that out, that the sales pages you design created millions of dollars. Okay, go on.

Sarah Guilliot (19:50.591)

Ha

Sarah Guilliot (19:58.798)

Across the world, don't forget. Worldwide audience. Yes, it was very, very exciting, very exciting through my times. And that's also a benefit of living in Seattle is that I could work for companies like Microsoft and Amazon and these big tech firms. But yeah, so then I was like, maybe Paige needs help with...

Shannon Mattern (20:02.408)

Mm -hmm. Globally.

Sarah Guilliot (20:24.416)

a sales page. And so I sent them an email and was like, do you need help? I'm available. I'm like trying to figure this thing out. And it was like perfect timing because they were really strapped and the team needed to do some other things. And so this was design help at the time. It wasn't copy help, although I was starting to use some of those skills for my clients. I was offering like the build for them. And so I worked with them to, you

create the sales page using the copy that Paige wrote. I did use some of my copy skills too there to add in a couple things or edit a couple things to fit. then they were amazing about giving really awesome testimonials because I was like, I want to use this as a case study on my website. And so they were like, perfect timing. Sounds great. Let's do it. So that was really fun. And then I've helped Claire with

two webinars so far doing slides for her. And how that came about is because my longtime client, Steph Crowder, is like best friends with Claire. And I was doing all kinds of design work for Steph over the years. I mean, I think I've been working with her for like four or five years now off and on. And I had done several webinars for her and Claire as her bestie always goes to those and she was in the audience and she loved it.

Shannon Mattern (21:33.016)

you

Sarah Guilliot (21:54.87)

and reached out to Steph and was like, can you connect me with Sarah? she knew, cause you know, Steph has called me out. And so she reached out to me and she's like, and I won't swear, but she said, it's, it just looks so professional. She's like, she said she could, she's like, I could sell, you know, with, with stick figures on a chalkboard if I needed to, like she's already successfully selling, but she wanted her slides to look better. And she had seen the

you know, what I had done for Steph and she was really excited about it. So I was like, absolutely. And that actually, that the first time I worked with her happened to be right after I joined WDA. So that I think that was like the first project where I used the package matrix. I was selling VIP days and I was like, Hmm, I wonder if I can use this. Can I make a package matrix for a VIP day? And so I tried that out with her and then she picked the highest, you know, package.

price on there and I was like awesome. Like even if she'd picked the lowest I would have been excited because it's Claire and she's well known but she was incredible to work with and she came back again the next year.

Shannon Mattern (23:01.395)

I love it so much. I love that your package matrix, one knew the highest, the high end package there. So we'll talk more about that in a little bit. But what led you to the Web Designer Academy?

Sarah Guilliot (23:13.122)

Mm -hmm.

Sarah Guilliot (23:20.748)

Yeah, so my friend Laura Comark was in your program and she worked with you for years. She's still in here. We have been through various other programs together and she has been talking about you for years. She was always like, Shannon's so amazing. Her program's so awesome. She has the best ever. And I was like, no, it sounds really good. But I was doing other things. And then I was like considering doing copywriting and not design.

Shannon Mattern (23:26.533)

Mm -hmm.

Sarah Guilliot (23:51.166)

And so I was like, I don't know if I'm doing websites right now, but I kept watching your art, listening to your podcast. And so I was listening to your podcast for years, just like, having Laura in the background being like, Shannon is amazing. And I'm like, man, it would be cool to be in there, but I don't know. don't know if I want to build a web design business. And then I was struggling financially and then I got a retainer project that

like took the pressure off. felt really good. That lasted for three months and then it abruptly ended. And I was like, okay, you know, I know that web design has worked for me in the past. I'm nervous about going straight to copy. I'm feeling, you know, like I thought this thing was going to last me all year. It just ended. Now's the time. And so I applied for WDA and, I think if I had known to like side note that

next level existed, I think I would have asked if I could go straight into there. But I was like, I trust Shannon. I've been listening to her for years. And I knew that I've taken a lot of programs from a lot of amazing people. And every single one, I got new tactics and new ideas. But what I was learning over time, which I never would have believed in the beginning, was that my mindset wasn't there. And I...

I remember being at the point like right before applying for you, I was like, okay, I'm either going to pay for a therapist or I'm going to join WDA. I think like, I know you're not a therapist, but I think that you would help me through the mindset stuff. I probably should see a therapist too, but I know, only got money for so many things at once that I was like, okay, this is, this is what I need. I know how to do the work. I believe that I can charge higher prices.

It's just there's other things blocking me and I knew that I could get those inside the program. so, yeah, then that's when I applied.

Shannon Mattern (25:51.751)

I'm so glad you did because I think that you kind of expressed some of the things that I think do hold people back from like just going for it and filling out the application. Like, I'm not sure if like, it's called the Web Designer Academy, right? And it has been since 2016. And I don't know how many times I have considered changing the name because

It doesn't really speak to like the full breadth of who we help and what we do. And so I always try to say like, we help anyone in the web design and adjacent spaces. So whether you're, whatever service you're providing related to, you know, web design services, like we work with you. And so that's one of the, been one of the really fun things to see you really like step into.

Sarah Guilliot (26:30.009)

Mm -hmm.

Shannon Mattern (26:47.301)

what I really love to do is write and how can I apply all of the same principles and strategies that we teach inside of the web designer Academy? Cause it doesn't matter what service you're providing. it literally does not matter. Our strategies are service agnostic, platform agnostic. That's another thing people are like, well, is it just for WordPress people? It's like, no, we don't even teach web design. We don't teach web design in the program at all. teach.

Sarah Guilliot (26:50.072)

Mm -hmm.

Sarah Guilliot (27:00.992)

Yeah.

Sarah Guilliot (27:10.286)

Mm -hmm.

Shannon Mattern (27:16.827)

We teach the other things knowing that as we introduce new strategies and ways of thinking to you, it's going to reveal what's actually holding you back. Because every single person listening to this, like, you're so smart.

Sarah Guilliot (27:33.547)

Mm

Shannon Mattern (27:42.323)

Like, you know how to build websites. That's not a skill everyone has. So, like, you could figure out everything that you need to do to build the business that you want. It's not like, it's not hidden information. It's out there. It's out there the way that we taught ourselves to like build websites, right? But there's that thing in the way of us doing it. So, to...

Sarah Guilliot (27:42.986)

Yeah.

Sarah Guilliot (28:09.941)

Mm Mm -hmm.

Shannon Mattern (28:12.081)

get a little deep, like, what was that? What was the first piece of mind trash that you discovered when you joined us that you were really like, I didn't know that was in the way?

Sarah Guilliot (28:28.856)

Yeah, I think the main thing for me, which I suspected, but I didn't really identify until I was already in Next Level, which wasn't far after joining WDA. And then we went to the retreat. This was when it happened, but I had suspected this all along, which was I wanted to switch to copywriting for a long time, but I felt that my identity

Shannon Mattern (28:44.045)

Yeah. We're like.

Sarah Guilliot (28:57.932)

was as a designer and that it's felt fraudulent to switch to copy. felt like sad and weird and scary to say like, to cut the line or, know, set the line in the sand of like, okay, no more design. Although I do sometimes kind of do a little design for Pascal and I do it for myself, but yeah, I get to do it. Exactly.

Shannon Mattern (29:19.175)

because you're allowed to do whatever you want to make money.

Sarah Guilliot (29:26.402)

But yeah, it was that identity piece. like identified as a designer and like, you know, an artist for my whole life. And so I was really having trouble letting go of that to like step into copywriting and then, and also to believe that I could succeed in copywriting because all my evidence so far had been that I succeed as a designer. So that was, that was tricky to believe long enough to make it happen.

Shannon Mattern (29:56.647)

That's fascinating. And just to give our listeners a little clarity around, we have our core foundational web designer academy program where we teach mechanics and mindset. So we're teaching you strategies, like the package matrix strategy that Sarah mentioned that she used and offered to Claire. And that's a strategy that we use that helps you with testing.

premium pricing and setting boundaries and holding boundaries and staying out of clients wallets. And it's like all wrapped up in this like little package matrix that is like a really powerful tool that we teach. But there's also like a whole lot of mindset stuff that comes up for people when they really start to think through like packages and pricing and marketing and putting themselves out there and project management and like whole like leading

like telling clients what to do and setting boundaries and all of that stuff. So that's like the core web designer Academy foundational stuff. It's like where we get you through all of that and we get you like.

like building like the mechanics to build a successful business. But there's always a point at which it's like Denise Duffield Thomas calls it new levels, same devils where there is that thing that maybe you've been able to sweep under the rug long enough to make some progress with the mechanics and the mindset and get some wins under your belt. But when you go to like

do the next thing or go bigger or raise your prices more because you've actually like gotten some evidence that you didn't, you did it and didn't die. Like this, or you're like, like maybe this thing that I was successful at creating and I thought I wanted, isn't what I want anymore. And I want to make a change. Even if it's a positive change, a change that you want something just like pops right up.

Sarah Guilliot (31:37.422)

I'm

Shannon Mattern (31:58.495)

and stops you in your tracks. And that's what we do in our next level mastermind. And yes, there's like mechanics and strategies and like tactics and things to implement in there. But like I said earlier, we're all really brilliant, capable people. We know what to do. It's just that we aren't allowing ourselves to do it. And

That's what we explore in next level. get to like the core of what that thing is. And then we base it. I wouldn't even say hold each other's hand. like hold each other through the very scary process of stepping into like that thing that we really want to become.

Sarah Guilliot (32:40.919)

You

Sarah Guilliot (32:52.76)

Yeah, exactly.

Shannon Mattern (32:55.023)

And so...

Shannon Mattern (32:59.055)

It's so, it's just, you would think like, going from designer to copywriter, like no big deal, but it presses on like our core like thing.

Sarah Guilliot (33:06.732)

You

Sarah Guilliot (33:11.552)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah. And I needed a little push too to get to the point where I realized this is really important to me. Sorry if I interrupted you, but I wanted to make sure that I mentioned something about my timeline. So I joined WDA in April, I think. And then by end of June or early July,

Shannon Mattern (33:15.942)

and

Sarah Guilliot (33:41.216)

I had earned back what the cost of WDA for the year, like just in that space.

Shannon Mattern (33:47.675)

And that was when the price was more than it is now, by the way. Yeah. You created your return on investment in four months, three to four months when the price was double what it is now. Just FYI, everyone.

Sarah Guilliot (33:54.144)

Yeah, yeah, I am. And that was.

Yup.

Sarah Guilliot (34:08.046)

And that was with me still being like, I'm building a web design business. it was, and it was like that last, the project that I did in like July, July, August period, which although an amazing client that I loved, love what we created together. I realized the toll that web design was having on me and my psyche and my body. And I was like, I was, you know, hunched over the lap.

Shannon Mattern (34:15.461)

Yeah.

Sarah Guilliot (34:36.59)

top in the library doing this work that I wasn't enjoying. And because it was copy, build, design, QA, checking it in mobile, not saying that those things aren't awesome when you're web designer, but I was done with that. exactly. And I was like, my arms are hurting. And I was like, OK, let's get real here. I really would have been much happier if...

Shannon Mattern (34:52.893)

When it's your jam, sure. Yeah.

Sarah Guilliot (35:06.134)

even if I was making less and the project was smaller, if I just had done the copy for this. And so that was like the space I was in as I joined the next level and then headed into the retreat time.

Shannon Mattern (35:21.467)

Yeah, so I feel I can't remember exactly how it happened, but we did our price restructure like, and our like program restructure, like kind of in the middle, right at that same time. And so I think it, I don't know if you reached out to me or if I reached out to you, but when we rolled back the price of web designer Academy and just kind of seeing where you were at in the program, I was like, she really needs to be in this room over here.

Sarah Guilliot (35:33.429)

Mm

Sarah Guilliot (35:50.272)

Yeah, I reached out to you and Erica was like, my God, we were just talking about how we needed to reach out to you. So it was like mutual at the same time. I was like, I think I need to be a next level. Is it okay if I come in a little early? And yeah, figuring out how that would work with the pricing thing.

Shannon Mattern (35:56.571)

you

Shannon Mattern (36:07.409)

did you think you needed to be in? Why did you think you needed to be in next level?

Sarah Guilliot (36:13.184)

Well, I noticed when I was in WDA, like on the calls, that I had other ideas about how I wanted to do things. Like, I love the core methodologies that you teach, but I had also learned so much from other programs that I'd been in. And I had I was more familiar with a more of a mastermind sort of call structure, which

You know, it's not that different in WDA, but it is more led by you. You're keeping people on the path. There's less like exploratory sharing of other things. And I was like, I think that that's what's happening in next level. And that's really what I crave is like that more mastermind, tighter knit. I don't know, tighter knit's not fair either, because WDA is pretty tight knit. there's just something a little bit more open.

and brainstorming inside of Next Level, which I had experienced in some of the other masterminds I'd been in, then inside of WDA where it's more structured around the curriculum and making sure people are, you know, building that, getting that foundational profitable business going.

Shannon Mattern (37:23.355)

Yeah, I love how you said that because the other way that I think about next level is that like there are people out there who are, who have packaged, like they're running their business, their systems aren't broken. They like how they're delivering their services. They don't need to come into the web designer academy and, you know, use all of the systems, processes, templates, and scripts that we've created because they already have that. They've been doing this for a while.

Sarah Guilliot (37:37.196)

Mm

Shannon Mattern (37:53.531)

And what they are using, there's no sense in changing that. But we keep the web designer Academy container really focused on our systems and processes because that's where we want like to, we want people who don't have that or, are struggling with their systems and processes, aren't solving, helping them solve their core problems. We want them all focused on implementing that. Whereas next level.

Sarah Guilliot (37:53.771)

Mm

Sarah Guilliot (37:59.192)

Mm

Shannon Mattern (38:21.799)

is the perfect place for someone to come in who is doing VIP days. And another person is doing like, you know, $40 ,000 huge projects for corporate and they're running it in sprint design sprints and you know, their pricing structures is a certain way. And other people are, are using our traditional package matrix framework and other people are doing different things. And so that's not what's broken in their business.

So we don't need to like fix that. And so in next level, the conversation is different. it's more like, it's more like, like you said, exploratory, like, ooh, show us how you're doing that. Maybe there are some pieces that I want to pull in, but it's not, it's not necessarily like we're teaching everybody the same strategies.

Sarah Guilliot (38:58.851)

Mm

Sarah Guilliot (39:18.252)

Yeah, yeah, and we're far enough along that not that we're not immune to shiny objects, but we can hear what other people are doing and take on a little piece of that without getting distracted and feel like, need to reformat my entire business now because that's how I should be doing it. So I think there's that piece as well.

Shannon Mattern (39:33.733)

Like, my gosh, I've been doing it wrong. Like this isn't working. Let me throw that out, start over and whatever. Yeah. So, so you decided in next level that you are going to, that you decided back in November at our in -person retreat. One, you came to an in -person retreat and spent four nights with a bunch of strangers. How was that?

Sarah Guilliot (39:50.861)

Mm

Sarah Guilliot (39:58.766)

I was nervous. So when I first joined Next Level, I'm like, my gosh, these people have been in here for years. They all know each other. I'm like this interloper. I was like a little shy. like, I going to annoy them with the amount of talking that I want to do? Questions I want to ask. But, you know, and I had some people that I already knew and like Laura was in there and stuff.

Shannon Mattern (40:09.009)

you

Sarah Guilliot (40:22.786)

But I know that retreats are so special and there's just nothing like getting together in person. And I also knew I needed to push myself to travel because I was post pandemic like nervous to go on airplanes. And I was like, I don't know, I'll figure it out. We'll make it work. So I was nervous to go and it was like so much fun.

I don't remember how long it took to feel like part of the group, maybe instantly, but it was amazing. I walked in kind of not knowing people, just having talked to them on the call. And then I walked out feeling like every single person is a really close friend of mine and we all want to support each other. And we're already thinking of ways that we can work together and send each other referrals. yeah, was just, it was very easy to feel.

comfortable. It was very laid back. was, it wasn't like, you don't feel like you have to be formal or, you know, dress up fancy or go to a bunch of do a bunch of things. I loved the informality of it and like just the gathering in the kitchen and like eating snacks and then brainstorming and like having so much fun brainstorming that like when we were planning to do it for a few hours, we're like, we want to stay and do it for more hours. And then we would just stay there and keep talking and sharing and

It was amazing. So much fun.

Shannon Mattern (41:53.415)

I remember thinking like, I'm not giving them enough free time. And then when there would be free time, everyone was still together. And I was like, OK, this is really cool. And I've been invited to other retreats and programs that I've been at. And when I look at the pictures of the retreats, the location's always gorgeous. But everybody is dressed up like they are going out.

Sarah Guilliot (41:58.433)

You

Sarah Guilliot (42:21.528)

Mm -hmm.

Shannon Mattern (42:23.989)

for, I don't know, like, I don't even know. I'm just like, I don't feel like going to buy all new clothes to like be at this like thing. Cause that is not me. Like you're not like, and so I have declined to go to a couple of business retreats after seeing the photos because I'm just like, yeah, no. Like I want to wear yoga pants and a hoodie and

Sarah Guilliot (42:43.853)

Mm

Sarah Guilliot (42:50.987)

Mm.

Shannon Mattern (42:52.741)

like, or jeans and a t -shirt if I'm feeling dressy. And so that has, that's one of the things like, you know, it's really important to me for people in our program, like online, but also in person to just like come as you are. There is no like need to be anybody like,

Sarah Guilliot (42:57.324)

I know exactly exactly

Shannon Mattern (43:22.129)

to do anything different in our groups or in person or virtual than you would on a normal day to day. And like, that's one of the things that I am really aware of making sure people know that if you like to get red carpet ready, by all means come, like I will.

Sarah Guilliot (43:22.702)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Sarah Guilliot (43:33.102)

Mm

Sarah Guilliot (43:43.777)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (43:49.135)

You are welcome. If you like to wear pajamas, by all means, wear your pajamas.

So what do you think your biggest transformation has been since working together, not just with like our program and our curriculum, but also just with other people in the room.

Sarah Guilliot (44:16.463)

Well, I think the biggest transformation came from an exercise that we did in the retreat of just picking, making a choice of I'm doing copywriting. That's it. I'm going to do it. And my task, which, you know, working through the exercise with Alicia coming into the group.

was to make offers. And that led me to learning how to do outreach, which was something that I had avoided all the rest of my entrepreneurial life. was like, it's horrible. I don't want to reach out to people. I'll just put stuff on social media. That's enough. And so I had this assignment of make offers, because I realized that I already know so many people.

Like you don't spend 20 years in corporate and not make a few connections. I had like 200 people on LinkedIn that I could like just touch base with, plus all my friends and all the people in the various groups that I've joined over the years. I'm like, I know all these people. I'm just not like talking to them or telling them what I do or mentioning. Like, and there's a good reason to mention something now, cause I've like, I'm not doing design anymore. I'm doing copy. and like getting over that hurdle. and.

Yeah, digging into the whole like make offers do outreach thing was like the major, the major piece that I took out of that and the most transformational because there was another part of that. Sorry, I'm like, I can't just say one thing. I got to turn it into a story. I had been talking to my husband about the financials and like,

what our goals were and what needed to happen. And I set a goal for myself that if I don't make X dollars or I have through the end of Q1 to set myself up to regularly pull in my minimum viable income monthly after that. I'm like, I'm at least need to get through the end of Q1 with April's money in the bank waiting to pay myself. And that.

Sarah Guilliot (46:36.044)

So that was my goal was like, I'm gonna do outreach. I'm gonna talk to all these people. I've given myself three months to make this happen. And that's how it's gonna go. And just like really diving into that, I learned I got better at outreach. And now I feel like I'm so good at it. I'm telling other people how to do it. I'm all confident about it now. And it's not as hard as you think. And it worked. And now I'm like, I'm almost, I'm like a thousand dollars shy of.

having the money, my minimum viable income through the end of the year now. So it's just, I've been able to hit that marker ever since. So it's been really exciting.

Shannon Mattern (47:16.881)

I just want to take a second to acknowledge you for that and congratulate you on that because that's a huge, huge, huge deal. Because if I recall correctly, wasn't it like if I don't hit this number by the end of Q1, then I told my husband I'd go back to corporate.

Sarah Guilliot (47:22.377)

Thank you.

Sarah Guilliot (47:35.904)

Yes. Yep. It was like, I have to get this number by the end of Q1 or I'm, I'm going to go get a job. And so then I was like, okay, now I have to do it.

Shannon Mattern (47:41.615)

Yeah. And you have consistently been a quarter ahead. We're recording this at midway through August and you're a thousand dollars shy of having yourself paid through the end of the year. That's a big, big deal. And that's just gonna keep going because you don't just, you're not like, well, I'm good now. I don't need to.

Sarah Guilliot (47:59.514)

Mm

Shannon Mattern (48:10.3)

I don't need to do any outreach or connect with people anymore because I'm good. You're not waiting until it runs out to.

Sarah Guilliot (48:17.292)

Mm -hmm.

Shannon Mattern (48:19.931)

to do the outreach. It's so funny that you, think back on, I hear what you said today and I think back on that and I asked you like, how did you create the opportunity to work with Paige? And you're like, I had a thought, maybe she needs help with a sales page. And then I reached out and I asked if she did. Like it is that simple. It's one of those things like that is so much faster

Sarah Guilliot (48:42.264)

Mm

Shannon Mattern (48:49.703)

than even writing a caption for an Instagram post and posting. Like it's so much faster. And yet there's so much underneath that holds us back. And you mentioned Alicia. Alicia is Alicia St. Germain, who is our basically resident mindset coach, my biz bestie. And I interviewed her in episode 100 and she leads us through this process. So at the next level retreat, we really do like,

Sarah Guilliot (48:55.171)

Mm -hmm.

Shannon Mattern (49:18.565)

look at what do we really want? What is our future? What is our vision? If you could have it, what would it be if none of this, you know, if it wasn't all wrapped up in your identity and everything and you're like, copywriter, it's like, okay, well, what do we need to do to create that? And that becomes what we call your domino. And that's like the one thing that we focus on that's gonna like, create all of the other things.

So it's like, yeah, the goal is minimum baseline revenue, the goal is buy Q1, the goal is not go to corporate. Those are all great, but what do I need to do to make that happen and to create all of this? And for you, that was outreach about what you really wanted to do and make offers, right? But the work that Alicia comes in and does and facilitates for us is...

Sarah Guilliot (50:04.886)

and make offers.

Shannon Mattern (50:16.025)

Okay, yeah, obviously, but what's in the way of you doing that? Because we over -effort, we make it hard on ourselves. We're either in inertia, we've got our foot on the brake and the gas at the same time. And so there is a reason that if you've been contemplating this thing for so long, but you haven't done it,

We have to peel back the layers and get to the core of like, what's really in the way and then create safety for you around that thing so that it's safe for you to take action so that you can be like, I'm not doing this because I believe something about myself, which is that I'm a, I'm actually not really a copywriter. I'm really a designer. So it's fraudulent to go and offer these copy services because I have no experience, no evidence that that's.

Sarah Guilliot (51:04.792)

You

Shannon Mattern (51:13.159)

a thing that I'm even good at. I don't know if you thought this, but people could think I could actually harm somebody by taking money and then fraudulently writing copy for them. And why would you put yourself in that position when you're subconsciously you truly think that the only thing that you're qualified or legitimate at is design because that's what people paid you for and hired you to do for 20 years.

Sarah Guilliot (51:20.92)

Mm -hmm.

Sarah Guilliot (51:25.55)

You

Shannon Mattern (51:43.301)

So it makes sense when you like shine light on it.

Sarah Guilliot (51:43.596)

Yeah, despite, -hmm, yeah. And all that despite the fact that I had published two books on Amazon and like the first service I tried was writing copy for someone. I still was just like, I can't get past this whole, I'm a designer. then you and Alicia are like, you're more than what you do. then I had my, there's another part of the exercise, it's like your mantra and mine was, I'm Sarah and I'm.

And just like to go into like reach reaching out to people with that mentality and it's like it's not about I'm a copywriter or I'm a designer it's just like I'm me and there's things that I'm good at that I really believe I'm good at which is like digging deep with someone and asking them questions and learning about them and like that my all my introvert skills of like having a deep one -on -one conversation with someone and really listening is what

allows me to do what I do. so yeah, being able to take that on board has been amazing.

Shannon Mattern (52:46.949)

And you're so, so good at it. know, one of the things that, that I, I love to write. love to write. I write like a lot, a lot of stuff I've written until you decided you were going to do copy. I've written all my own copy, except for maybe a couple of things here and there. And then you decided to do copy. I'm like, well,

Sarah Guilliot (52:49.624)

Thank you.

Shannon Mattern (53:16.007)

I want her to write words for me. And the gift that you have that I hope that you are, like, I hope you have internalized and if you're not that you are internalizing is that you see people and programs and the things that you're writing for, you see it without, you have a clean mindset around it. Like you don't see all of the,

Sarah Guilliot (53:40.27)

Mm

Shannon Mattern (53:42.407)

you're not writing through the lens of all of the baggage that we have about like, it good enough? What will people think? You know, all of the stuff that we don't even realize we're thinking that's like clouding our words and keeping us stuck or keeping it making it like 100 times longer to write my own thing, because you don't have my same bag of mine trash hanging out in your head, you know, and so you're able to like just cut through it. So much.

Sarah Guilliot (54:05.995)

Mm

Shannon Mattern (54:10.893)

Easier. And I say that because I want everybody listening. You do that for your clients too, with the services you provide for them with web design or copy or whatever it is that you do for them. You aren't bring, they have their own set of fears, worries, and anxieties about their business, their pricing, their clients, their customers, their success. What, you know, what's at stake for them. And you don't have that. You see like the best.

You see what's possible for them. You see how awesome they are. You see the impact that they're having in your, you're working from that place. And so there's so much value in that too, for our clients that like, we don't even realize that we're bringing to the table that like, we have a clean mind around what they're versus, we're creating from that space versus them.

struggling through building their own website and all of these other things and coming out on the other side with something that's functional, but like could have been so much better had they worked with you. So that was my little rant on that, but you're so, so good at like seeing what's possible for people. And you wrote our next level sales page. You wrote sales emails for the web designer academy.

Sarah Guilliot (55:17.07)

Mm -hmm.

Shannon Mattern (55:34.555)

There's going to be more stuff that you're going to be writing for us because you're just so good at it. So I just wanted to acknowledge you for that.

Sarah Guilliot (55:36.867)

thank you.

Sarah Guilliot (55:43.138)

Thank you. And I agree too about the, that hidden gift that comes as a service provider where you, your, your client, it is so much more than just like the coding and the building and the writing. It's, they are so in the weeds. just, can't see the forest for the trees for what they have to offer. They're just too close to it. And then you come in with this clear outside eye and you can see like,

the amazing transformation they give. And you don't have any of the like, but I don't know, I'm not sure. I'm a little hesitant. You don't have any of that. Cause you just see it from the outside and you're like, no, it's incredible. Like we need to tell everybody. And then they end up looking at that. Like my clients will look at the copy that I've written for them. And I had three clients in a row that said they cried when they read my emails, cause they feel so hurt. And they're like, I wouldn't have been able to write this for myself cause I'm too, too close to it. You know? So that's, that's yeah.

It's a beautiful thing, the relationship between the service provider and the client.

Shannon Mattern (56:47.055)

Sarah, I could talk to you for a hundred more years. We have already filled up an hour. That's what I love about talking to you. One last question before we wrap up. And that is, what would you say to someone who has been listening to this podcast forever and ever and ever, just like you did? And they have been thinking about coming to work with us, whether they're...

Sarah Guilliot (56:50.347)

I'm

Sarah Guilliot (57:09.688)

Mm

Shannon Mattern (57:15.427)

in those newer stages and web designer academies where they're thinking or they're like, you know, they have their business systems, but they're just like, man, this is like a lonely and I kind of want more, but I don't know how to get there. You know, that next level person. What would you say to that person?

Sarah Guilliot (57:33.09)

I would say to trust your intuition. Like sometimes you don't need to reason your way through it. You're just like, I really want to get in that room. And you don't need to necessarily have a list of reasons why that's absolutely the right choice. If you're just like, you have that deep desire to do it, do it. It's like, you don't know what you don't know. You sometimes we'll come to calls and you'll be like, who needs coaching? I'm like, I don't think I need coaching today. And then...

someone else gets coaching and then you're inspired like, yeah, I have that thing. And then you ask a question or like you just brain dump some feelings and then you come in Shannon and there are like spotting all the consistencies and able to like cut through, know, cut to the chase on what needs to happen. And it's like, you can't tell when you're on the outside that that's gonna happen. You just have this feeling that like something.

something's not quite there and I need something more. And you just got to follow your intuition and head inside. And because so much can happen in a year. So much can happen in a month. You don't know what's in store, but there's no way that you can come into this program and not get something out of it. It's going to happen. You just got to keep your eyes open for the little transformational opportunities and be involved.

you know, like take part and only good things will come from it.

Shannon Mattern (59:03.931)

Sarah, thank you so, much for being here. Can you tell everyone where they can go to learn more about working with you, hiring you as a copywriter for their website and their web design business, hiring you for their clients so that they don't have to write copy for their clients? Where can everybody go to buy words from you?

Sarah Guilliot (59:28.11)

Yeah, you can go to saradesign .com. that's Sarah with an H, no S at the end of design. I couldn't put like Sarah design. couldn't put my name on there because it's too difficult to spell. couldn't be sarageo .com. So it's saradesign .com. and that's where you'll, you know, find ways to, reach out to me. And also I just, even though I'm outreach queen now, I still love Instagram.

Shannon Mattern (59:38.638)

One design, Sarah design.

Sarah Guilliot (59:57.664)

And I tend to do fun stories from my car. And I love to chat with people over there. So if you send me a message, if you'd rather do that, then just dive into a discovery call. You can find me on Instagram. my account there is saradesignagency. And yeah, I'd love to talk with any of you. My hot seller right now is post event email sequences.

If you've presented at a webinar and then you have people entering your list and you're like, no, I don't have a welcome sequence and I don't have anything in place to email them, my newsletter is nonexistent, I can come in and write that series so that you aren't leaving money on the table with those new people joining your list.

Shannon Mattern (01:00:42.939)

So good. will link all of that up in the show notes and thank you so, much for being here.

Sarah Guilliot (01:00:49.234)

Yeah, thanks Shannon, this was super fun.