#165 – From $75 Logos to $10K Projects with Kenzi & Marisa of The Brief Collective

Shannon Mattern (00:01.634)

Hello everyone and welcome back to the profitable web designer podcast. Today I am joined by Kinsey and Marissa of the brief collective. We have been trying to get this together for a few months now ever since they spoke at the simply profitable designer summit. And I'm so excited to finally have you both on the show. We have so many juicy topics to talk about in terms of.

pricing and running a design business. And I'm sure so many more things that we don't even know are going to come up on this episode today. So before we dive in, we'll start with you, Kinsey. Can you just introduce yourself and share a little bit more about you and your background?

Coach Kenzi (00:46.007)

Yeah. So I am the brand and web designer behind Kinsey Green Design. I started my design studio while I was going to college, started freelancing and charging $75 for logos and was like, I'm going to graduate fully self-employed. And against everybody's advice, I did that. And over time started learning, I can charge a lot more. And eventually I started booking 5k projects and then 10k projects. And somewhere along the way I met Marissa and we started the

collective to help other designers do the same because we saw a lot of the same similar challenges in this industry when we met each other we're like you're struggling with that I'm struggling with that and we just realized like there was a need for design mentors to come into this space and show other designers what's possible.

Shannon Mattern (01:34.956)

So good, Marissa.

Coach Marisa (01:36.812)

Yeah, hi guys, I'm Marissa. I'm the beauty and brains behind MB Creative Agency, soon to be rebranded to Wild Rose Becoming. And I'm a brand director. I love directing the whole project, having that really big bird's eye view from start to completion web.

socials, branding, photo shoots, all my favorite stuff. And yeah, the internet's pretty freaking cool because it brought me my business bestie, Kinsey, in some random chat room. And we both realized, wow, like we're seeing the same things going wrong in our industry and like, how can we help? And so that's like really where it was rooted. we never started off by having an education platform we wanted to build, but

slowly with all the questions and stuff, we knew we had to do more to help. And so we really just are on a mission to leave the design industry better than when we found it. And actually today I was like looking at the numbers and stuff and like we're on semester 11 of the designers that we've been helping. And so it's just pretty cool to like, I don't know, I considered that kind of seasoned and I was like, yeah, we've been doing this for a while and just.

being able to make an impact in that way has been a really fun thing to do. So thanks for having us today.

Shannon Mattern (03:01.256)

my gosh. It's such a, like when, when I met you both and I don't know how we got connected, but, you've spoken at the simply profitable designer summit, I think more than once, if I'm not mistaken. and you know, when I get to see everybody's sessions and topics come through, I just, I was like, there cannot be enough of us. Like there cannot be too many of us shouting from the rooftops about.

the value of what we do as designers, you know, and that we're allowed to like charge really well for it. We, I could go on and I do on this podcast about how, how we're allowed to have profitable, sustainable businesses. But you both mentioned like, there are things that we see happening in the design industry that we are like so passionate about helping other designers.

shift and fix and change. So I would love to hear from you both, like, what are, you know, some of those things that you see and, you know, and just to like help everybody who's listening, like feel less alone or feel like, we hear Shannon say this, but like, I'm so curious to hear what, what you all, what your perspective is.

Coach Kenzi (04:22.314)

I'll go first. already know what Coach Merce is going to talk about. I think just one example that I see all the time is, well, my client needs this in two days and I have to deliver it and I'm so busy and I'm so burnt out and I'm still not making the money I want. And just the constant need to be on and available 24 seven at every client at all times.

Shannon Mattern (04:25.505)

Ha ha ha.

Coach Kenzi (04:50.272)

And just a lack of boundaries. And I think in the creative industry, that's something that we see over and over and over again that creates burnout is this lack of boundaries and thinking that that's just the way it is. That's not just the way it is.

Coach Marisa (05:04.238)

It's truly.

Shannon Mattern (05:04.361)

I love that so much. I'll yeah, Marissa, I'll, I'd love to hear from you too. Like you, Kenzie said, you just went straight from design, like from college to like working for yourself. Right. It's so interesting because you didn't get the, like, so like the socialization that I got about like, I'm going to turn you into an employee who does.

Coach Kenzi (05:20.588)

Mm-hmm.

Coach Kenzi (05:30.177)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (05:32.081)

jump for your boss whenever your boss says jump and so that you can keep your paycheck, keep your job. And so I love that you like kind of didn't have that experience where you're like, what do you mean I have to do what you say? No, this is my business. I'm running it. Here's how this is going to work. So good.

Coach Kenzi (05:56.257)

Yeah, a lot of people find that kind of strange. Go ahead. Sorry. I think there's probably a lag.

Coach Marisa (05:56.494)

I

Shannon Mattern (06:00.253)

You

Coach Marisa (06:00.471)

Yeah.

sorry, guys. I did have that experience. So I left my nine to five to go start my design business. And I know exactly what you're talking about. Like your boss is like, I need this by 5pm today. And you're like, okay, and like just the panic that comes over you. It's totally the same thing. Like

I think sometimes we feel like we're our clients' employees and like we're not. So we need to really shift that feeling. And I think that like, you know, you already know when you're undercharging because as soon as you hit that button to send the proposal, like your stomach drops, like you already know, you already know you're undercharging. And I think like just us as designers as a whole, we bring so much vision and clarity and like emotional intelligence to our clients and like

the projects we're working on. And then we discount the invoice because we feel bad. Like we convince ourselves that getting paid and like the compliments and the tags and like whatever else people give us is just part of being creative. And so I just, I just don't like that term starving artists, you know, like we're done playing along with that.

Shannon Mattern (07:18.165)

so good. The other thing that I hear all of the time is, and people don't outright say this, but this is like the subtext under it is that like, I'm harming this business owner by receiving money from them for this thing that is really simple or easy for me to do. And that is something that I'm just like,

I will shout from the rooftops that you are not harming someone by receiving money to give them something that's going to help them make more money. So what are your thoughts on that?

Coach Marisa (08:01.454)

100 % agree, full stop.

Why are you feeling bad? You have bills to pay. You have a family to feed. Like they're not feeling bad for charging their clients for stuff. So why are you? I see this, like I work with beauty based businesses, other service providers, and it is, I think it's just a thing with service providers. Like we just like to be helpful and all of that stuff, but you can't be helpful at the expense of yourself. Like you still have a value.

of value to the table so charge like it, you know?

Coach Kenzi (08:40.354)

I think it's kind of people pleasing 101. mean, for that's what I see a lot of times. I also think it's a lot of thinking out of.

my pockets and not the clients. Like a lot of designers I meet are in the state of the starving artist mentality because that's what they've been taught. They've undercharged for so long that they've just kind of been in this perpetual feast and famine state constantly. And then when it's time to raise their prices, they feel bad about it or think that the client is going to reject them.

And it's not coming from a place of logic, it's coming from a place of fear, and it's coming from a, well, what have I experienced and what's my reality? And they put that onto the client as if that's also the reality of the client, when your client could be making six figures a year and is in a totally different place than you. I think it's really easy, especially for creative people, to look at others and just judge them on the outside and be like, well, they can't afford that, or they can't do X, Y, and Z, and like, no, you don't know.

Shannon Mattern (09:37.122)

Yeah, like we talk about that here is like, you know, there's pricing paradigms, right? Like some people have an expense mindset. Some people have an investment mindset. And when you're looking at, when you don't realize that as a business owner, you are unwilling to like,

you look at money as finite, as it's gone forever, as, you know, when I spend this, it's, it's like, it comes out of my bank account and you're not thinking, you're thinking about the past and the present and not the future. And if you operate your business that way, it's really hard for you to then not project that onto your clients when you're looking at your pricing and receiving money from them. Or you're like, well, if I think I have less when I

spend money on the tools that I need for my business or the mentorship or their coaching or whatever. think I have less after, you know, parting with that. of course you're going to think your clients think that too. And so it's like one of those things where it's like, you have to take a hard look about how you even think about how you spend money in your own business. is, are, you know, is what you pay for the Adobe suite and expense, or does that help you make so much more money?

You know, like, do you think of every dollar that comes out of your bank account as something that's going to make you more money? Or do you think of it, it's gone forever? Because if you do, that might be one of the reasons why you might have a hard time charging more. And we have to like clean up our own side of the street first in a way, sometimes.

Coach Marisa (11:20.884)

that you touched on that too because it's like the confidence in the actual items you're delivering but it's also the confidence in the transformation that you're helping this person walk through.

And like, it's so interesting to me because designers literally shape perception for a living. Like we craft identities, we elevate these brands, we make sure their online presence is making them feel very visible and confident, AKA bringing them more money. And yet when it comes to pricing our own work, we get so quiet about it. And we hesitate. And I think it's because we're not focusing on that transformation. Like I think that's the common denominator. You're not thinking like how skilled you are.

because you're helping that client see how this detail that you put into the brand really helps their value perception. And we really need to think about that. We are helping shape people's legacies and helping them feel confident when they launched. And I can't tell you how many people are like, you just made it make sense. And yeah, we did because we have that bird's eye perspective.

I love that you touched on that. It's like the emotional ROI, not just the pretty things that we make.

Shannon Mattern (12:41.287)

Anything to add to that, Kenzie, because I think that that's like something that I don't think the people on the other side of this podcast can hear enough is like the value of what they do is so much more than like, I didn't have a logo, fonts and colors now, and now I do. And that's kind of, I think we can be dismissive of our own, of the power of our own.

the deliverables that we give to our clients.

Coach Kenzi (13:14.37)

I always like to come at things with like a very logic standpoint. And so for me, I'm like, just look at the ROI, look at the return on investment, look at what they're going to do. I have one client who, and like, you can go back and ask clients you've worked with, like, Hey, have you seen an increase in sales? Like, what are the results six months down the road after we've worked together? But I have one client who was doing 500 K a year rebranded with me and is now doing over seven figures and is going viral. And people literally come in for her brand aesthetic that I helped create.

And so when you look at it like that and you look, okay, what is having a solid brand identity actually going to do for this business in terms of helping them build their credibility and reach more customers, making more sales, making more money, like over years and years and years, they're going to make thousands and thousands and hundreds of thousands of additional revenue. And designers don't think about that for some reason. They only think about it as a list of deliverables. And it's so much more than that. It's about the transformation. That's what we say.

It's about the transformation the client is having and the long-term ROI. It's not about this list of items you're giving them.

Shannon Mattern (14:22.517)

I couldn't agree more. And the other thing that I see on the flip side of that, which keeps them like putting themselves at arm's length and undercharging is there's this secret like, but what if what I create isn't good enough and they don't get those kinds of results. And if I didn't charge that much, then I've protected myself from a potential negative.

outcome in the future. And that's another reason that I see designers undercharged because they're like, well, if I didn't charge them that much, then their stakes aren't as high. And then if they don't get the results that they really want, then I don't have to feel bad about that. I'm curious if you all experience that type of mindset in your coaching with your clients.

Coach Kenzi (15:13.154)

That is a really good point. Go ahead.

Coach Marisa (15:13.26)

Yeah, no question. Sorry, Kenzie.

Like the question I immediately want to like ask back that I would stay in a hot seat coaching session would be like how long you're going to keep charging like you're still proving yourself. Like when is it going to be that you believe in what you're doing and like what you're capable of and like you have to believe in the own impact that you make and like don't let your fear or your insecurities like take over that instead of like looking at the facts and what's true and like the difference that you are making. Like who taught you

Coach Kenzi (15:27.99)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (15:28.086)

Yes.

Coach Marisa (15:47.438)

that being affordable made you valuable because that's like we can separate those things.

Coach Kenzi (15:56.387)

We had a student regress once we've actually had probably had to have more than once not to our knowledge But they came through our program We helped them book their first $10,000 client and then they went off and started charging less again because they didn't like the pressure that came with it so that is a thing that apparently happens, but that's really Crazy to me because in my own journey going from $75 logos to these 10k plus projects I've never once thought that way or

Shannon Mattern (16:12.661)

Mm-hmm.

Coach Kenzi (16:26.144)

considered that. And I think part of it is in my mind, it's more about your positioning and the way that you see your services in terms of value versus the actual pressure of you charging more to deliver better results. Like I could still design a brand identity for $5,000 and you get the same results as the $10,000 brand identity I designed for the other client.

The difference was the value that I placed on my work, not the client or their results. And so for me, there's not that much difference between the $5,000 project and the $10,000 one. Maybe I had a photo shoot plan and the $10,000 one, but the difference was I was serving a higher client who was ready to make that investment. And I don't think I've ever once had a client come back to me and been like, I'm unhappy because I didn't get results. I've never had that happen. And I've been doing this for over seven years now.

Shannon Mattern (17:21.445)

know, thing that you said like, they charge 10,000 and then lower their price because of the pressure that came with it. Like that pressure is so optional. Like that's the thing that we, I see, I see that I see the lowering of the price or I see like the over-delivering on the backend of like, well, I charged 10,000 for this set of things and.

Now they're asking for more and more and more. I feel bad that like, now I'm going to like stuff this package full of things. Cause they're already spending so much money with me. So one of like, we're all it's all mine. Like all of that becomes mindset work. Like, what are you thinking and believing about the value of yourself, your services? And you know, can you really just like Kenzie so beautifully said, like just believe in the value of that. Like.

full stop without having to, without having to justify or continue to, to over deliver for that. So I love talking about all of this stuff with, with both of you. And I'm super, I want to kind of go back to, your, your relationship. And you said you both met online and you started talking and you hit it off.

and you had a common desire to help other designers. Tell me about like the origin story behind the work that you're doing together to coach and mentor designers. You're both laughing. I can't wait to hear the story.

Coach Kenzi (18:59.906)

We're laughing.

Coach Marisa (19:00.302)

It's a funny story because I actually thought she hated me. I thought she hated me when she first met me because Kinsey has a very unique personality and she's just very direct. And I guess I wasn't like, I haven't met a lot of women like that in my life. And so I was like, oh my gosh, does this girl hate me or what? And we were doing, do you remember Clubhouse like back in the day, like that was a popular app? That's where we met. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (19:26.891)

for a hot minute, yeah.

Coach Marisa (19:29.004)

It was so fun. It was like podcasts all day long. Loved it. And we met in one of those rooms and she was hosting like the logo critique sessions. And I went in there to get my logo critiqued and she ripped it apart and which is fine. I needed to hear it. It was bad anyway.

But then we like, was like, hey, could I host one of these rooms with you? And so it would basically be like good cop, bad cop, which is kind of true to how we do things today sometimes. Where, you know, she goes in with the hard hitting thing and then I build them back up. And so yeah, that's just, we met in there, became friends, started talking a lot more. like, I would say I didn't really think she liked me until a couple months into that.

Coach Kenzi (19:59.596)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (20:19.08)

What's your story, Kenzie?

Coach Kenzi (20:21.675)

Well, there's much more to that story that we haven't released to the public because there's just a lot more to it. We're thinking about writing a book at some point. That's been on our to-do list because it's absolutely wild. mean, when we tell our full story, people have their draws on the floor. But we started this business together before we had ever met in person. So like we started the Reef Collective and it's the...

More in depth is that it started out as a brief challenge page. We were sharing tips as well to help educate other designers, but then the questions started rolling in.

And that's when we were like, maybe we do need a course to like serve these designers better in a more one-on-one environment, right? There's only so much you can do. There's only so many questions you can answer without dedicating hours and hours to work through those hard mindset challenges and things that designers face. And so we started making money and all of this stuff before we had ever even met. And we both flew to New York alone for the first time to meet each other in person, like...

as strangers. that really, I think we're trauma bonded from that experience. And hopefully we'll be able to talk more about everything one day.

Coach Marisa (21:29.806)

you

Coach Marisa (21:35.542)

Yeah, we did exactly what your parents tell you not to, like don't make friends on the internet. And we started a whole company together. So it has definitely been a wild ride. And I love how with the Design Biz Academy, after every single semester, we're like, all right, what went really well and how can we improve? And like we're 11 semesters in and I said that the top of the podcast, but it's just wild to me like how far we've come and like how.

much how deep we help designers and in their mindset, you know, struggles and stuff like this. And like, like, one of the big things from day one, we've always said is like, just feel the fear and do it anyway, because like, it's gonna be scary no matter what to say the higher price or, you know, to tell your client about this boundary, whatever it is. But

if you just feel the fear and you do it anyway, you're gonna be like, wow, it wasn't as hard as I was making it out to be in my head. And I think like, yeah, that's just something that we always come back to again and again, that you just have to do it anyway.

Shannon Mattern (22:43.149)

I'm, you know, one of the things that, that I think is so awesome about what the two of you do is like, sometimes people just need permission to like, to, to know that they're allowed to do it a certain way, you know, and when you're like, feel the fear and do it anyway, it's like, okay. So not only am I not alone in this, there have been so many other people that feel this way.

I you're, creating a community and experience for people where they're seeing other people go through the same things that they're going through, which gives people courage and camaraderie and community. And you're like giving them permission to like do the big bold things that maybe they're a little too scared to give themselves permission to do. And like, you're just unleashing what's already

inside of people, you're just like helping them get out of their own way and like go do great things. And I think like, it's just such a gift that you're giving to the design community to really want to help them get out of their own way. So I just wanted to like, say that because I don't know if we can ever hear it enough that you're having a huge impact.

Coach Marisa (24:01.678)

I hope so. mean, that's what we want to do, you know? I mean, that's it. That's why we do what we do.

Coach Kenzi (24:02.56)

Man.

Coach Marisa (24:09.006)

And to just leave it in a better way that we saw it. mean, I say this all the freaking time, but like designing is kind of a very lonely job. Like it's you, your computer and your creativity and your long list of client like demands that you have. And so I think just the simple fact of like being in a room with other designers like, they're struggling with that too. And like, they're overthinking that same thing. And like, you know, there really isn't a ton of standards in our industry.

Shannon Mattern (24:18.762)

Mm-hmm.

Coach Marisa (24:38.96)

Like the medical industry, there's a lot of standards or you know, you know, there is and then in other industries there's a lot of standards too and so I think just the standardizing things and like what the clients going to expect because the client isn't trying to be a pain in the butt They just don't know what they don't know and so I think that's another uphill battle that we fight as designers to is just Also educating the client along with why we're doing what we're doing

Coach Kenzi (25:09.247)

Yeah, I wanted to add on to that. Just to clarify how we actually support designers and design, Biz Academy, we run a hybrid model and we only open up cohorts and like.

Our passion for this was never rooted in making, obviously we want to make money, but it was never started because, we're just going to do this course and get rich overnight. You that's how courses are sold on the internet. And we've been told numerous times like, just make it evergreen so everybody can join and go through it at the same time. And we're like, no, we're never going to do that because our design students have such impactful transformations because we bring them in all at the same time, all together. They have assignments. We give them tailored features.

We have bi-weekly coaching called where we're working through the mindset stuff and because they're in this container It's cohort with other designers who are all going for the same thing at the same time. It creates this impactful

collective neuroscience, that's, I mean, it's literally a thing. Like that is what happens. And that's why our students get these incredible results. I mean, we've had somebody who joined who had charged $200 for brain identity. And before graduating, she booked her first 5k project. And now she was at our retreat and just recently had her firstly $11,000 month. And I don't think that those results would ever happen if this was just your average self-paced course, because people need the

the emotional support from a community.

Shannon Mattern (26:40.477)

yeah, like there is so much information out there online as you both know about how to price, how to package, how to sell, how to deliver, how like all of the templates and all of the everything is out there, you know, and there's a thousand different ways to do it. Everybody listening to this could like go find all of that and do all of that right now. And there's something about making the commitment.

to make the change, like to enter a cohort like yours to, like, that's like a decision that they've drawn a line in the sand that they're no longer willing to run their business the way that they have been running it. They're committed to changing and they're all in on letting you lead them through that transformation. That is a big decision in and of itself. The day you like the day you decide you're done doing things.

Coach Kenzi (27:16.949)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (27:37.307)

the way you've always done them. then to have, allow people like you guys to like support them and lead them through that transformation is, is so huge. And, if you're listening to this and you don't have, and you're trying to self study and you're trying to reverse engineer and you're trying to look at what other designers are doing and trying to do it all on your own.

you're probably missing some really fundamental things that being in a cohort or in a community or having a mentor will reveal to you and help you speed up your results and get out of your own way so fast. Like, just like you guys said, you had someone go from $200 to, what did you say, 8,000? 5,000.

Coach Kenzi (28:29.569)

She booked her first $5,000.

Shannon Mattern (28:31.681)

$200 to $5,000, that's huge. So if you do not have a mentor and you're trying to self study your way through it, please get a mentor, get a mentor. I'm so curious from both of you, are some other, what are some of the other like super common yet really tricky challenges you see from the women that you work with?

Coach Kenzi (29:01.045)

procrastination.

Shannon Mattern (29:02.913)

Tell me more. Tell me more.

Coach Kenzi (29:07.201)

Well, I'm the action coach and coach Marissa is the mindset coach so procrastination obviously is one of my biggest aches it drives me nuts because I'm like just do it and they don't and that's when I have to send them to coach Marissa and be like you got to do some you got to do some mindset work or something because clearly what I'm saying isn't working for you, but

Shannon Mattern (29:20.969)

Hahaha!

Coach Marisa (29:22.606)

Thank

Coach Kenzi (29:26.601)

That's something that I see really, really stops designers from reaching their potential is we give them a plan. We give them the path. We give them the tools, everything they need. And we'll still have people who are spending months building the same website, tweaking the same things, trying to make every little detail as perfect as possible until they get out there. And that procrastination also is obviously combined with perfectionism.

Like that's going to stop you like that is going to halt your progress and you've got to get okay with things not being perfect because Done is better than perfect a lot of times and if you can think like that you can get yourself out there and start making money and start getting clarity around some of those areas and then go back and refine it and I think that's something that stops so many creatives I don't know why we are like that but it's like they want it all to be perfect before they start and it's like no start now

Coach Marisa (30:23.948)

Yeah, and I think they also wait for that motivation to hit them to begin. And it's like, no, like motivation comes after movement. And so you have to move, you have to act before you can do that. That's going to give you a lot more clarity. That's going to give you that momentum, that motivation you're looking for. And then that builds trust in yourself. And then with trust in self comes more confidence. And then you're able to make a lot more.

quick CEO level, leadership level type of decisions. like, if you really want to empower yourself to get out of the procrastination, then you have to move. You have to act.

So I think that's like the biggest, one of the big things that, you know, we're just, they're overthinking it really like keeps them stuck. Cause I think it also comes down to like comparing to others because you you said templates are everywhere. This is everywhere. Like we're like overloaded with all this information. It's like, just trust yourself to make the best decision for you because what works for her isn't going to work for you.

Shannon Mattern (31:27.968)

So good. What else besides procrastination do you see holding people back from like really creating the business and revenue that they really could be creating?

Coach Kenzi (31:41.961)

a great one. Go ahead, go ahead. No, you go. I talked first last time you got this. I'll keep it in my brain.

Coach Marisa (31:41.986)

The thingy? Okay, go ahead.

Shannon Mattern (31:45.329)

Okay.

Coach Marisa (31:49.338)

Okay, so client experience is a big thing for me. They're thinking about, I think a lot of designers just think about things from their perspective and they're not thinking about the other person on the other side of the screen. I touched on this a little earlier, but like,

We're not thinking about like the upheaval and the reckoning that we are asking these business owners to go through when they do a rebrand. Like they're becoming something new. And so your clients not trying to annoy you by asking for that revision or having that question or any of that stuff as much as that is annoying to deal with. But that's why you need to put your boundaries in place. You need to think about your client experience and like, you know, the roller coaster that you're putting this person through and what they can expect. Because I think like in

elevated.

experience has elevated expectations and so we need to be able to meet those expectations. So I'm very passionate about the client experience and how that really needs to be modeled and showcased in every touch point that you have with that client and in your online experience and in the person or you know the zoom calls whatever. So client experience would be a big thing I would say that keeps people kind of stuck and overwhelmed.

Shannon Mattern (33:07.194)

So good. Okay, Kenzie, what were you sitting on?

Coach Kenzi (33:11.083)

Sounds so good. Investing time, money or energy into more three B's, more templates, more courses, more summits as a false sense of progress in your business. This is one of the... What are your thoughts about that initially? Seems like you had a strong reaction.

Shannon Mattern (33:25.032)

my gosh, preach.

Shannon Mattern (33:32.949)

because, okay, listen, I host a summit, I have a podcast, we have a lot of free education. And also what we see and what we're trying to undo is just people kind of getting stuck in that cycle of learning, learning, learning, learning, learning, or like someday I will find the magic piece of information that like clicks and

Coach Kenzi (33:39.755)

Uh-huh.

Shannon Mattern (34:02.312)

I won't have to effort or be uncomfortable or do anything hard. I will have finally found my way to the quote unquote right way to do things. And suddenly it will all fall into place and I'll just suddenly magically start making a bunch of money. The truth is you need to make a decision just like Kenzie said and take some action, like make a commitment, maybe even take a risk, maybe even invest in mentorship.

with like Kenzie and Marissa or the web designer Academy. I don't care who just do something and put some skin in the game. Put yourself out there because we are all creating education to and I can't speak for you guys but I'm creating education to help like move you closer to getting the help and support that you need to really help you realize that.

You don't have to do it on your own, but not to keep you stuck and swirling and searching and never actually starting. So I have a lot of thoughts about that. I want to hand it back to you, Kenzie, because I want to hear what you have to say.

Coach Kenzi (35:15.157)

I see this more frequently in people who avoid investing like it's the plague. They consistently think that the free resources are enough, even though they've been relying on the free resources for over a year and they're still stuck in the same spot. So what's it going to take to make you realize that you probably need to make a big investment into some more tailored help than the freebies can provide?

I also have seen this in some of our students as well who go and graduate our program and then they go get shiny object syndrome and they start looking at, well, how can I go sell fonts or how can I go sell brushes and textures and make passive income before they've even got their service based offerings in a place where it's sustainably making the money. And I think

Part of that is due to our society and just the over consumption of content and people constantly being like, I made $3,000 from my fonts this week, go try this. And like, think exploring different avenues of income is great, but you can only do so much at one time. Like you have to focus on one for a long period of time, give it your pure focus, put action towards it and get it to a place where it's.

solid and stable before you move on to something else because if you're constantly jumping around you're just not going to get the results you're looking for.

Shannon Mattern (36:39.124)

Yeah, it's like you've got the heat on underneath the water and every time it's about to boil, you turn the heat off, you dump the water, you put cold water in, you turn the heat back on and just right before you just keep doing that over and over and you never get to the point where anything is boiling. so, yeah, I love that. Marissa, what are your thoughts?

Coach Kenzi (36:45.312)

Thank

Coach Marisa (37:00.622)

I totally, I totally agree. Like you have to be able to trust yourself, trust your own taste, like trust.

what you need and like really think about the person that you're listening to with that advice. Like are they living the life that you want? And if the answer is no, then you probably shouldn't take advice from that person. So you really need to think about like who whose mouth it's coming from too. And I think it can just be a lot of noise. Like you really have to be selective when you're in a business who you're listening to in that, right? And like you have to still value your own gut, your own taste in that.

while having a mentor and stuff like that. Like has to run through your filter, I guess. Like your taste is the reason your work works. And so every single second when you're comparing to somebody else or you're having shiny object syndrome, like starting something new, then you're throwing your own taste in the garbage. Like that's the reason that you notice things others don't. And it's the reason that you're so good at what you do. Even if you can't always explain how, like the taste...

is like also why you struggle to post. It's why you struggle to price and to be seen and to like your taste is ahead of your current skill level. And so I think that's what they're searching for. Like it hurts to be there. So you can see what you're missing before anyone else can and you spot that gap of what you created and what you wanted to create. And so I think that gap is what they're trying to fill with all of the consumption of all the freebies and stuff like that.

Shannon Mattern (38:40.158)

I think that is so true. And I think there's also something to be said about just like the instant gratification of wanting instant results. And like, there is a lag time between going after anything new and, taking action and implementing and the results that you're going to create off the back end of that. And it's like getting comfortable being uncomfortable in the lag.

And of the results coming after you've changed, after you've decided to put yourself out there, after you've raised your prices, after you've started a new marketing strategy, there's going to be, you can't predict the timeline out like for those things to start bearing fruit. And if you don't trust yourself and you don't stay the course and you don't persist in that.

You'll never get to the end of that lag. You'll just keep starting over and starting over and starting over. Or if you never even start because you're procrastinating, you'll never even get to the point of the lag time. So there is that part where you just have to be persistent, trust yourself, trust the people who are leading you that like, Hey, guess what? Right now I know it feels like everything you've done, you've done all the things and nothing is working. Your results are on the way. Stick with it.

Like don't, don't just be like, that didn't work. me throw everything out the window, baby out with the bathwater, go start over. It's building the discipline to stay the course and to not get distracted and pulled off course by shiny objects. And it's really tempting when you go to a summit like the simply profitable designer summit and you're like, here are the 30 awesome different speakers who are all incredible.

and all have done something really unique and successful in their businesses. And there are 30 different pathways you could go down. And every single one of them will likely lead you to success, but you have to be discerning and committed and persistent and pick one and put your blinders on and go with it and pick the one of the people that vibe with you the most, the things that you know you need. Like if you heard Kenzie talk and you're like, I need someone to kick my butt into action.

Shannon Mattern (41:04.448)

Like that's the place for you. You know what I mean? And like be discerning, like be committed. And then I think the other thing that I'll say is like, if you wouldn't pay yourself a significant amount of money to, if you wouldn't invest in yourself, if you're like, wouldn't invest $5,000 in my own business or $10,000 in my own business.

to give myself the mentorship and education that I need. And I'm not saying that you have to spend that much, but I'm just saying those are, that's an example. If you want to charge $10,000 for a website, but you would never in a million years spend $10,000 on your own business, why not? Why would you want someone else to trust you that much when you don't trust yourself that much? And I think there is an opportunity for you to look at

What are all the things that I'm thinking that I don't think I'm worth investing this much in myself and my own business? Where are those gaps and can I get some help with those gaps? Cause I clearly have some like mindset work to do to believe that I'm worthy of committing to myself. If I want other clients to commit to me at that level too. I think that there's, we have to like really look at that. And, and for me,

The first time I went from self-study, I went from freebie seeker, right? To reverse engineer what I think everybody else is doing to, okay, I'll pay for a course. Okay, that got me here, but I still really have some gaps I need to fill. Now I'm gonna actually hire a coach. It was a night and day.

to go from self-study course that's teaching me how to do something to having someone look at my business and say, here's where you are completely missing a huge opportunity or thinking something about yourself that's not true or whatever. And that one conversation made me the entire investment back in that coaching. And then I was able to go on and like 10 exits.

Shannon Mattern (43:28.384)

So I have very strong feelings about that topic.

Coach Marisa (43:35.094)

can tell and I mirror a lot of those same things too. Like as long as I have a business, I'm going to have a mentor. Like you can't see your own stuff. Like that's why it's so hard to design for yourself. Like it is, you're two in it. You're two in the trenches. It's hard for you to like, it's just too hard.

Shannon Mattern (43:42.932)

death.

Coach Marisa (43:52.874)

And so as long as I have a business, I'm going to have a mentor like a thousand percent. Like you just need that trusted person to bounce ideas off of and like it helps get you further. I took a very similar path to you as well. thought, I'm so smart. I can just reverse engineer all of this stuff myself. And it's like, well, yeah, maybe I can Frankenstein Band-Aid some things together, but like it's not the same as like building something around your own.

goals and what you're building because what works for somebody else isn't going to work for you. And so that's why this hybrid model that we have works so well because I'm not going to give the same advice that I give to somebody who wants to grow into a 10 person agency that I'm going to give somebody who wants to, you know, have maybe a two man team or stay a studio. Like it really depends on where you're going and like

Shannon Mattern (44:42.942)

Yeah.

Coach Marisa (44:46.996)

We know that as designers, like we design around the transformation and the goals and all of that stuff, but it's hard for you to think about that for yourself.

Shannon Mattern (44:56.106)

So good. Yeah, Kenzie.

Coach Kenzi (44:58.302)

There's still such a stigma around investing in online education, which is so sad because in my opinion, there's a lot of online education that is much more affordable with.

Shannon Mattern (45:03.454)

Mm-hmm.

Coach Kenzi (45:11.018)

far greater results than traditional college will ever produce. I'm saying this is someone who graduated the valedictorian with a bachelor's degree in design. And like, we have these designers that come to us and they're like thinking about joining our program. And they're like, well, I don't want to make that investment in myself. It's just too much. And they're sitting there with $50,000 debt from a college degree. That's not doing shit for them. And I'm like, where, my friend, like we have these results, we have student interviews, you can see that they're getting

this type of result in three months and you went to college for how many years and that didn't do anything like it it doesn't make sense to me how our society prioritizes traditional education in such large amounts of money versus online education that clearly has a shorter timeline clearly a lot of them have far greater results testimonials clear like this is worth the money

And college doesn't even do that. Like college doesn't have those transformations coming out the other end for you to watch, for you to see. So I really think that's still a big problem our society has to kind of overcome at some point.

Shannon Mattern (46:23.089)

super curious to, Marissa, said this and I don't know the answer, but it's like, because we are so smart and talented that we get in our own way. You know, we're like, of course I'm smart enough. I can figure that out on my own. But what we don't know is we don't know what we don't know. Like we can look at the surface, we can look at the tip of the iceberg and we can figure it out. But

Coach Marisa (46:33.155)

Mm.

Shannon Mattern (46:47.247)

I put, I try to put myself in as many rooms as I can with people who are going to point out to me the things that I am just not seeing. And they're kind enough to say it to me until I get it. When one of my, my biz bestie is just like, yeah, Shannon, I tried to tell you that a year ago and you weren't ready to hear me. And I'm like, well, I appreciate so much that you're willing to tell me.

over and over and over again until I hear it, until I'm ready to hear it. And without those people in my life, I would be, I don't know, probably back at my corporate job that I hated or something. I can't imagine.

Coach Marisa (47:32.302)

Never going back ever. I love Same I I also think like yeah, that's that that's the critique like you can take the critique as like oh They gutted me they stabbed me like you can take it personally if you want to or you can take it and you can rise with it and be like oh They're just trying to help me and like that's so great that you were able to receive that and like

Shannon Mattern (47:35.871)

I'm unemployable now.

Coach Marisa (47:59.19)

I'm sure that helped like things like click and stuff like that. So I just love feedback like that and friends who are bold enough to give it and you know, in a respectful kind way obviously, but I think we all need that. If you have a business then you need somebody to kind of be that mirror for you.

Shannon Mattern (48:18.589)

Yeah. So tell me about the Design Biz Academy. And we've talked a little bit about it. We've talked about the cohorts and the semesters and the different things. But what does it look like to, what's the process of learning more about it, of getting on the list, of joining it? And what can someone expect once they do join and go through a semester with you guys?

Coach Kenzi (48:47.424)

So we do have an application. So the first step would be going and checking out our course. We have student interviews all over our YouTube channel, incredible transformations. And I really encourage people to watch that because I think it can inspire them to see what's possible. I mean, we've had new moms. We've had people who are doing their business on the side. We've had people quit their full-time jobs. We've had people from other countries. It's just incredible to see the range of students and their backgrounds that have gone through our program.

You would apply and have a call with us to make sure you're a good fit. We're currently enrolling for January of 2026. That will be our next cohort.

We do only accept a limited number of students each semester to keep it like small, intimate, make sure everybody gets the same amount of attention. But essentially once you enroll and apply, if you're accepted, we will ship you a student welcome box in the mail. So that's a really cool aspect of our program is that coach Marissa handpacks all of the welcome boxes and we even have a workbook that goes along with our program that walks them through each and every module. I don't think that there's another program out there for brand designers that literally comes with a physical workbook in the

that they can do like that and I think having that physical aspect to it really makes it

It just helps engage people more, know, like it's one thing to join an online course, but it's a whole nother thing to actually receive physical items in the mail and be like, yeah, this is really happening. Like this is a real thing. And then once our semester starts, everybody, again, they come in at the same time. They come into the portal at the same time. We have a few things for them to do, like taking a personality quiz because we pair them with Coach Marissa or me, Coach Kinsey, depending on what they need. Like some people need that like softer touch. Some people need me who's a little bit more rough and like, like

Shannon Mattern (50:30.783)

Hahaha!

Coach Kenzi (50:31.074)

we leave feedback for them so you know it's kind of important to pair them with the right coach so they aren't like my god what the fuck is this you know so we do make it personalized in that way and our program is three months so we have orientation and then you know they we do the what is it the we do what's the method

Shannon Mattern (50:38.484)

You

Coach Marisa (50:51.922)

Yeah, I do. We do you do. So we do I do it first so that you can see and learn from me. We do it together so you can do it right alongside me and then you do it by yourself to prove that you know how to do this on your own. And then the other thing I really love about our program is like the homework report cards. We are writing out tailored feedback for that person and where they're going and like I'm thinking about their dream clients and all of the feedback that we give is so

tangible, unique to that one designer, that one person. And I think we just, we really take them through a freaking roller coaster. It's a really fun ride to go through. And we also have the kind of the sorority calls where they get that camaraderie and get to relate to like the sisterhood. And that's also where a lot of mindset shifts take place and stuff like that. So.

That's another more fun part of the program. It's not all hard work. It is hard work, but there's some play in there too, because you have to have play and enjoy it, or why else are you doing it?

Coach Kenzi (52:01.716)

Yeah, and there's EFT tapping in one of our lessons to help regulate the nervous system as people are raising their prices. So it's not just about here's the stuff you need to do in your business to get the results. It's also about here's these activities we're doing together that are going to help you with those mindset shifts you need in order to book a 10K project and feel confident and happy about it.

Shannon Mattern (52:24.595)

So good. you know, I was just thinking as you were sharing all of that, that, you know, it's, it's just so important to not try to go it alone. Like, yes, we have, like, this is, it's why the Design Biz Academy exists. I'm sure it's why the Web Designer Academy exists. It's like, you have the skill and talent to be a designer.

And you probably invest so much time, effort, energy, creativity, capacity into honing that craft and learning how to run a business around that skill is just as important as the skill itself. And so it's like, we, sometimes forget that like, look at all of the time, effort and energy we put into getting

really good at design. There are so many skills to learn to get good at running a business around your skill of design. And there are incredible programs out there, like the design biz Academy with people who are really dedicated to like taking your hand and leading you through and super committed to helping you create the business and life that you want. So that support is out there. If you have been craving that, if you've been,

Wanting it, I definitely recommend checking out Design Biz Academy and we'll link that up in the show notes. Can you share with them where they can go to learn more about it and fill out the application?

Coach Kenzi (53:59.646)

Yeah, the link below and also just where the brief collective on Instagram on YouTube, we've got so much free. I mean, the same as you, Shannon. We have the Unapologetic Designer podcast. We have the YouTube channel with all sorts of tips. Yes, we have the student interviews, but we also have like how to videos that we've recorded for people. We have a 30 minute course on our YouTube channel like.

Shannon Mattern (54:09.983)

Hahaha

Coach Kenzi (54:25.171)

There's, even have a free community. mean, there's just, have a whole ecosystem. So just join our world and you'll find out.

Shannon Mattern (54:32.479)

So good. So I have one question left before we wrap up for each of you. And we'll start with Marissa. What's one belief about yourself that you had to change to get to where you are today?

Coach Marisa (54:48.46)

that's a beautiful question. I love it.

I think it's one thing that I also talk to our students about is like, really have to believe in the value that you bring to the table. Like charge based on the value that you bring and not your worth because those two things are different. And so really, really knowing how valuable you are and like in your skills and in that transformation. I think, yeah, focusing on the value instead of all the other things. It's just all those other things are

just noise.

Shannon Mattern (55:25.075)

So good. Yeah, because you're priceless. You couldn't possibly charge what you're worth because it's just not even a monetary number. Yeah, Kenzie, what about you?

Coach Kenzi (55:37.343)

I think I, especially when I first started, I had this idea in my head that I was bad at networking and I could never do that. But I guess my approach is maybe combining the coaching aspect of things into this as well, but like.

Had to tell myself no like you can network. You're actually good at it. Like I just spoke this week at an event and I got the most amazing feedback ever like Public speaking used to be one of my greatest fears and it don't get me wrong Like I still I still like I don't really want to do this, but I should do it I know it can be beneficial like

I went to middle college, so I was in high school and then halfway through went to middle college, started taking college classes early. And when I was there, one of my freaking classes was public speaking and I kid you not, every week I would have this like fear, this dread of, my gosh, I have to go to this class and I have to speak in front of these people. And it was so embarrassing and I hated it. But I think part of that was me not knowing myself and.

So once you start building a business and like going on this entrepreneurial journey and trusting yourself, you become so much more confident in everything that you do and like you can do it with a lot more ease and like the things we tell ourselves are so real, right? So like if you're constantly telling yourself, no, I'm bad at this or I'm bad at that or whatever, that's going to be your reality. Like just change your internal voice and you can do anything.

Shannon Mattern (57:10.543)

my gosh. So good. That's the perfect place to wrap this episode up. Thank you both so much for being here. This was an awesome conversation. I could talk to you too for two more hours, but we have to wrap up. So, I will link up more information about the brief, brief collective, the design, this Academy, the podcast, Instagram, the YouTube, all of the things in the show notes, go make friends with Kenzie and Marissa. I'm so glad I did. And we'll see you all back here next week. Bye everyone.

Coach Kenzi (57:40.243)

Thank you.

Coach Marisa (57:41.666)

Thanks for having us. That was so fun.