#149 – Creating More Capacity in your Web Design Business with Sarah Noked

Shannon Mattern (00:01.907)

Hey everyone and welcome back to the Profitable Web Designer podcast. Today I am joined by my friend and founder and CEO of OBM School, Sarah Noked. So Sarah, welcome to the show.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (00:18.466)

Thank you for having me here.

Shannon Mattern (00:20.465)

You're so welcome. I always love talking with you. We've known each other for several years now. We've been in the online business space together. And I always just love getting to connect with you and talk to you. And every time we talk, not recording it, I wish we had recorded it for the podcast.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (00:38.123)

I know. I know you had so many great ideas and it has been, it's just been really wonderful to look back at our, both of our collective journeys as entrepreneurs and be like, we're still here. We're still doing that same thing. And I love it.

Shannon Mattern (00:49.595)

Yeah. So good. So can you tell our listeners what is an OBM for those of them listening that are like, OBM school, what's an OBM?

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (00:59.534)

OBM, SchoolBud's an OBM. So an online business manager is somebody who steps into a business to support our clients manage bits and pieces of the day to day. It could be operational, it could be a project you're managing, it could be team that you're managing, launch management, all kinds of different things. And we really help our clients get out of the day to day in their businesses and

As such, many you might be wondering, as such, these clients really need to be in a place in their business where they need this kind of managerial support. So, you know, a lot of businesses could benefit from the work and, you know, kinds of things that we do as online business managers, those managerial leadership pieces, but we really need to be focusing on those businesses that have things to manage, that are making a certain amount of money.

and that really are ready to delegate the reins so that our clients can really focus on the things that only they can do in their businesses.

Shannon Mattern (02:01.465)

And what is the difference between an OBM and a virtual assistant?

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (02:06.488)

Great question, Shannon. So I really look at virtual assistants these days as more of an industry. And when I look at it like that, I definitely see like an OBM kind of fitting under that umbrella in a way. But on a more sort of black and white perspective, a virtual assistant is somebody who really assists in the implementation of things that need to happen in the business.

with regard to day to day, could be like scheduling the emails, whereas the OBM is like managing the emails being scheduled. And also I think that every business needs a virtual assistant, like we have two on our team and things need to get done, things need to happen. So there definitely needs to be implementers on the team, but there also needs to be that higher level implementer that could strategically manage things from.

a bigger picture and that's really where the OBM and VA role differ. And then of course there's little nuances like the language we use or being in the big picture of the business. Like I find as an OBM and some of you listeners might really enjoy this, like I knew that I was an OBM because I just was always wanting to know the big picture goals and it was sort of driving my enthusiasm for working in that business. And you know, as profitable web designers,

you may feel the same way. You know, you're doing a lot of different things for your clients and you probably likely know bits and pieces of the big picture and probably could help with clients with streamlining their systems or helping to take over projects above and beyond development or design.

Shannon Mattern (03:41.619)

That's why I love talking to you, having you on the show you presented at the Simply Profitable Designer Summit because there is such a synergy between web designers and like how they need to, what they need to know about a client's business in order to effectively design not just a website but an entire like strategy that's going to help that person reach their goals.

And the same thing for an OBM, they need to have a level of knowledge about the person that they're working with, the business, the customers, the goals of the business, challenges, opportunities in order to help like create the strategy, co-create the strategy, and then like go off and put the team together to implement that. you know, web designers do.

something very similar, just their tool is different. And that's why I love talking to you. And I always think there are so many people here listening that are either already acting as an OBM in their clients' businesses or could potentially like add on some OBM services. And I'd love to dig into that in a little bit. But first, I want to...

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (04:38.2)

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (04:48.088)

Hmm.

Shannon Mattern (05:04.752)

Like go back to your origin story and have our listeners get to know you a little bit better. Like what was your journey to like becoming the CEO of the OBM school? Like what brought you here? I know we're going like in the way back machine. Yeah.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (05:18.93)

wow.

We're going back almost two decades here. It's pretty crazy. Yeah, let's go to the Wayback playback machine and get on there. So, you know, I really started this business because I needed to. I didn't really have a choice. And it sounds so funny when it comes out of my mouth, but I grew up in Canada, grew up in Toronto and fell in love with an Israeli guy who could not brace the Canadian winters. And he was like,

Well, if this is going to work, we're going to have to live in Israel. And I was like, oh, wow, that's going to be quite difficult because I don't speak the language. So that's what I say when I said I had to make it work. I really had to make this work because I love this man. And I was like, I just need the flexibility to work from anywhere. Now, this was back in 2009. And back in 2009, for those developers who are listening, you know how hot mess this industry was. Like, we were using WebEx. It was...

crazy bananas times. And so I wasn't an OBM when I first started, I was a yes woman. I was like, I'll just do whatever you need, whatever services I can provide online. And I did that on the side of a corporate job that, you know, just needed to kind of make ends meet. And I just sort of stayed stagnant there for about three years until I got really clear about my positioning. And that's why I love what you do, Shannon, because

There's nothing more powerful than really like embracing your positioning. And so when I started to like really deem myself and call myself an OBM and I was like, you know what? I've got an MBA. I had a landscaping company. Let me just take stock of these transferable skills and make something more tangible, more desirable for premium clients that are going to pay me enough money so I can get myself out of my corporate job.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (07:13.1)

And so that's what happened in 2012 for me. But before then it was a real hot mess and I wasn't a happy camper. But once I started to really embrace the role and get clear about who the clients are, it just really skyrocketed from there. And before I knew it, I was scaling an agency because living in Israel, you have a lot of English speakers who are looking for this kind of flexible work. So I had no problem finding really qualified people and I started training them.

And as I started training them, started to realize that, my God, maybe I'm really good at this training stuff and sort of motivating and inspiring people for what the possibility could be. that my whole sort of hook was like, if I can do this from the middle East in a place where I am not in the same time zone as my clients, I will never meet my, my clients in person. Then nobody has any excuse. mean, granted, obviously I speak English and I grew up in Canada. And so there were, you know, there were definitely some differences there, but all in all,

I was like, if I can do this from here, nobody has any excuses. And so I started to train, then I started to certify OBMs. And then I just was like, you know what, it's time to build out OBM school. And so we started to build out OBM school. Wow, I think it was, I want to say 2021. I'm like, what year is it? Where are we? Like, how old am I? But it was just such an amazing opportunity to sort of pull it all together and

also to just have a place for our community. And the interesting thing about it is it's, it's, a lot of OBMs, but it's a lot of service support professionals that don't necessarily quote unquote identify with being an OBM because I always tell people I'm like, there are a lot of synonyms for being an OBM. You can be a fractional operations person, you can be an integrator and so on. And also

It's really about the transformation. So like you were saying, if I go in and I build out somebody's website and I create this whole amazing strategy for them, then I am really such an integral part of their business. I a developer at that point? I'm not so sure. Like am I a strategic developer? And then I'm like, wait a second, I'm the only one who cares. My clients just care about the service and you know, in the case of an OBM, getting the big projects off of their plate so that they can focus on only the things that they can do in their business.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (09:31.746)

And then since I'm already saying this, I just have to say it, there are so many web design agencies that also use OBMs to manage the clients and the workflow and sort of that, you know, liaise between the client and, you know, just making sure that everything is happening as it should be.

Shannon Mattern (09:50.739)

I just love hearing the story of how you like when you said WebEx, I was like, oh my gosh, I used free conference call.com back in the day to like have conversations with my clients and you do for you forget like how scrappy we had to be to like do this.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (09:58.158)

Were you like, God.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (10:11.63)

So scrappy.

I actually learned as an OBM, and you guys will appreciate this, I learned HTML. Like, I think it must have been 2010. I was like, I better learn HTML. And I learned just enough to delete a client's cPanel, because I don't know, and then have to build their website back from way back playback. Now granted, it was a very simple website, and I work with the Dell. I have an excellent developer on my own team as an OBM.

Shannon Mattern (10:32.563)

you

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (10:44.122)

And we had to build it from screenshots, because that's how shady it was.

Shannon Mattern (10:51.267)

Yes, everybody listening can relate to that situation. So I also love how you were just like, look what I have been able to create for myself. If I can do this from the Middle East with, my, you looked around and you were like, wait, I have this, I have this.

The part to me that I want to dig into a little bit more is like you went from being like a yes person, like I'll just do anything, and you were an unhappy camper to really like figuring out what you wanted to offer and how to structure this. What were some of those early challenges that made you think like, okay, there has got to be a better way and I don't have to do it like this, because I'm imagining that's informed.

everything that you teach in OBM school. If it's anything like the Web Designer Academy, it is structured to solve those, like to just prevent those early challenges that you had.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (11:49.458)

yeah.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (11:56.798)

Absolutely. And one of the things that immediately pops up in my mind is, you know, embracing that I have a business, because at the beginning for me, it was just sort of a means to an end. I'm like, I just need to make enough money to support myself. I know you guys can relate to this as back end individuals. I am not a visionary human being. I never wanted to scale OBM school. mean, none of that was in the pages for me. So when I was just trying to make it work,

At the beginning, I actually discounted all of my transferable skills. I didn't have a website, I think, that really put my best foot forward for many years. I was doing all the wrong things that I think in today's age people can avoid easily because entrepreneurship is more of a thing. You know, being a service support professional and having access to our free communities and all sort of the resources that we put out there make it very easy for people to...

you know, start their business. But I think for me more so it was really embracing that there's just so much to be had with regard to mindset. So I always look at my people pleasing personality as being really problematic as a service professional. That being said, I don't think I would be where I am now had I not been that kind of person who was sort of open to trying out all of these different things and really

Because this was before like OBM was like a coined phrase, you know, people didn't really know what an OBM was. People still don't know what an OBM is. But then it was really much worse. And so a lot of what we teach inside of OBM school are just the foundational principles of actually just treating your business like a business, which again, it's hard for us to do because I mean, I didn't set out to create an empire. I set out as it means to an end to

be there to give my kids this like stay at home mom feeling even though that doesn't exist. So I think really having a driving factor like my why and having it be very clear in front and center definitely helped me to get clear. But I'll be completely honest with you Shannon, like a lot of what I teach in the program are the things that I really screwed up at the beginning, like discounting all of my transferable skills. So not to toot my own horn, but.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (14:18.274)

We had a very successful landscaping company in Toronto. I I literally tried everything to get my husband to stay in Canada. So we had a landscaping company for about three or four years that we ended up selling. And even when I came into the OBM role, didn't really account for any of those transferable skills. And, you know, I had managed teams, I managed landscaping teams, I was doing sales with clients. I was like going into people's houses and giving them quotes on landscape design and

maintenance for their lawn care. So when I got into the OBM space or the VA space or the whatever freelancer space, I was like, well, this is an entirely new thing. So I can't really take any of those skills with me. And now I really scream it from the rooftop, especially people who are coming from corporate. You have tons of project management skills, even as caregivers, as parents, as friends, we have managerial skills. And I think also we just really discounted and it's

It's a hard pill to swallow in our community because I see, it's almost like the more, I don't know if it's the same for you, the more talented, quote unquote, an individual is that comes in our community, the more they feel like they need to start at some arbitrary square one.

Shannon Mattern (15:34.107)

Yes, yes. it's like, it's the thought I hear all the time. It's like, well, I'm self-taught. It's like, okay, so if you went through a course that like taught you, you also are self-taught. Like, I'm a self-taught designer. So therefore my skills are less valuable. It's the same thing as like, I learned all this in corporate, not in college.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (15:42.67)

Mmm.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (15:57.435)

that's interesting.

that's so funny. I think that's interesting because nobody, no OBM will say I'm self-taught. You know, I think it's such a, that's so interesting. They're just not looking at anything. They're like, I don't have any skills. I'm starting at some arbitrary square one. I, like myself, I'll be a tech VA or I will be like some kind of administrative assistant because I don't have any transferable skills. And I'm like, it couldn't be further from the truth. So think when you can really embrace.

Shannon Mattern (16:06.927)

Yeah, but they might not look at their corporate skills. Yeah.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (16:30.776)

some of those skills that you, like I also had an MBA and I'm like, my God, you know, I just, and I think I'm a pretty confident person. Like I don't think I'm, you I just was, I just look back at my journey and I can really relate to those individuals who are sitting there saying to themselves, what do I really have to offer somebody? You know, and I'm like a lot, so much.

Shannon Mattern (16:55.475)

I relate to that so much. was like in an executive role at my company and being like, I can't charge them that much for a website. Like, two, was like I compartmentalized everything that I ever did. I would have never said, you can't pay me this much to be the vice president of this thing. Like, I'd be like, you need to pay me more. But yet over here, I'm like,

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (17:10.594)

That's it.

Shannon Mattern (17:23.569)

I can't charge them. Like it's just, it's so strange. Yeah. So I love that you really like come from that place of like waking people up to their value.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (17:25.484)

Yeah, you're like shaking in your boots.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (17:39.598)

Yeah, that's like the number one thing. And then the number two thing is like treating your business like a business, you know, and having a website. You know, so I always say to people, you know, as an OBM, and this is great for those, you know, designers and developers listening that are maybe thinking about adding this to their tool belt is you need a website, you need automation, you need a lot of those things that we like geek out on because that's your storefront.

So if you're building out somebody's storefront, you are a very clear strategist in that person's business. And there's just so much that can come out of that knowing and.

Shannon Mattern (18:17.861)

Yeah, let's talk more about if you're building out someone's storefront, you're a strategist in their business. Cause one of the things where you're chatting about before I hit record and we were kind of talking about at the beginning of this is, you know, after you have done all of this work to build out their storefront, there are so many more opportunities for ongoing services beyond just website care and maintenance, search engine optimization.

conversion, like the typical web designer things that we think of in terms of like, how do I offer ongoing services to my clients once I have been like in the trenches of their business? I've built this thing. Now we're at the end of the project and my options are website care plans, SEO. I don't want to do that. Like there's another option on the table that is so valuable that we overlook because we're like, but I'm a web designer.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (18:57.464)

He he.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (19:06.798)

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (19:12.086)

valuable.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (19:15.818)

Mm-hmm. I can't do that. I can't step in there 100 % and I think it's also really important here to mention that one of the things that I that I teach students because you were asking me before about what are these like little nibblets that I give and I think one of the biggest things that I have learned as an OBM and that helped me with my mindset and with my ability to strategize and do these things with clients is this notion of a dating project and

I can't think of a better dating project than building somebody's website. So as OBMs, obviously we're not always developers, although there are quite a bit of techie people who come into the space naturally. You might not build their website, but you're helping to build a strategic plan. So if you can help them to build maybe that first iteration of their website, you've already sort of got to...

got to feel for like, what's this person like? Do I like working with them? Are they, you know, consistent? they treat me with respect? Like all the things that make for a fabulous long-term relationship. So it's actually quite interesting to look at a developer who's offering that as let's say it's a dating project or that first project on a date. And sometimes a dating project kind of plays it down, but that first project you work on with that client is going to help you.

understand if you even want to have a long-term relationship with that person. And then if you do, you know, then there's obviously a lot of things that you can build out for them in a 90-day plan that aren't just about website maintenance, but can have more to do with even hiring a VA because you've probably hired on your own team or helping to map out a project plan because all you do as a developer, as a designer is

Create projects for people and and and utilize your project management skills and and then naturally if you have that design capability Which I always admire because I have no design prowess Then you're really winning because then you can even lean into some of the more branding stuff And I think some of the more dare I say sexy things about business, you know that kind of like get people all excited but then without

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (21:30.186)

necessarily the other things that come along with that, which is, you know, like team hiring and operational stuff. And so there's a lot that you can do just with your natural tenacity as a developer, as a designer to then go on and have like a very nice long-term retainer with a client where it's not about managing their whole business. So that's, you asked me at the beginning, what an OBM does. And I think one of the big fallacies about OBM is that we manage the whole business, right?

And I think as freelancers and as developers, you probably know that it's impossible really to do that, especially as a contractor. But we manage bits and pieces. maybe you take on the content calendar, or you take on another different kind of project that's maybe related to design in that person's business. And then you have a beautiful ongoing relationship.

Shannon Mattern (22:19.464)

I think about, you know, as you're saying all this, I'm thinking about, you know, my own business and how I run the Web Designer Academy and I'm and I am functioning as the OBM in my business. And I wish I wasn't and someday I won't. And every time I talk to you, I'm like, man, I need to like.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (22:38.828)

I'm gonna find, well we have matchmaking. I'm gonna find you somebody good.

Shannon Mattern (22:42.803)

I'm gonna like truly, because I'm like, I see so much value in me being like, hey, we're doing this webinar on April 25th. And that's all I need to say. And there's someone else who does all of the things that I normally do.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (22:58.316)

Yeah.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (23:02.146)

Or better yet, Shannon, they come to you and they say, hey, we're planning for Q4 2025 because we are ahead of schedule. And here are the promotional dates that we are thinking about. Do you see any conflicts here? And then you're like, nope. And then the tasks go in place, the things start moving.

Shannon Mattern (23:18.375)

And that's all I have to do.

Shannon Mattern (23:25.565)

See, yes, this is a whole nother side conversation. Yeah, because I'm like, but I look at what are the, so I'm thinking of the person listening to this and they're like, pricing and marketing and how do I find clients for this? And I'm like, I will tell you from where I sit, I cannot create more revenue in my business with the current capacity that I have. And yes, I,

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (23:29.484)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (23:55.527)

I'm going to have to make some changes if I want to shift out of the day-to-day and really create more capacity to create more revenue to do all of the things that only I can do. And so when you think about a business's revenue is capped because they are at capacity,

and you can come in and free up their capacity to grow their revenue, that value to that business owner is unlimited, right? So it's not about, and web designers hear me when I say this, it's not about, I can only charge this much an hour or this project is only worth this much, or the going rate for XYZ is this. It's like, what is this business able to create as a result of having

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (24:32.673)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (24:52.311)

whatever it is that you do in the business. you know, for me, that's how I look at it. That's how I want you all to look at yourselves and the things that you do for your clients. And I'm sure that's the way you look at the value of an OBM to someone's business.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (25:08.194)

Yeah, I mean, you said it so well. And I love that you used yourself as an example, because one of the things that when I was mentioning how I was spinning my wheels at the beginning, that's what I didn't understand. I didn't really understand this client that is maxed out of time, which is the only quantity you can't get more of. And so when I started to sort of quote unquote work with my ideal client, and that's great because some of you hopefully have experience working with ideal clients, I realized that,

They are completely maxed out and my value isn't in sales, isn't in, know, like I affect the bottom line by giving my client back more time. And so I love how you, make a point of describing it through your own business, because if you're a new freelancer or you, or you don't, you're not quite maxed out with clients yet. You really don't emotionally or intellectually necessarily understand that. I can speak for myself here. I was, I was.

clueless because I had all this time and I was like bootstrapping HTML and you know, I have 800 hours in a day. Like why don't these people have all their time in a day? What's wrong with them? You know, and I'm like, oh, they have all these different things. They're scaling and all these different, you know, things that really do require. don't babysitter is the word that comes to my mind. I'm going to say it like it is. It's like, you know, you have to sort of babysit aspects of the business so that the client can be like,

So happy that that's being taken care of. have full peace of mind. You're like a promotional calendar, like we were saying. Like, you know, on my team, it's Toby and like Toby's and Toby's responsible for that. And I don't have to, you know, necessarily worry about like the dates for the Q5 or Q5 dates for Q4, whatever, you know, I just leave it to her and she puts it in place because she knows she's very clear on this, on the strategy. She's very clear on the big picture and she's very clear on the goals in the business. I think that's the other.

really big caveat about being an OBM and what some of your developers might really resonate with is that you have to really know the goals and you have to know the vision and you might not now at the beginning and you might understand that through working with a client but it's those that level of an understanding of the big picture that really helps to drive the decision-making and the project management and the things that really do give your client peace of mind and it's a it really is a beautiful thing.

Shannon Mattern (27:32.083)

I think about this conversation we were having in our next level mastermind yesterday. So our next level mastermind is women web designers who really have like hit that invisible revenue ceiling. know, their capacity is at max. There's the way we teach our pricing strategy in the web designer academy. We teach you to like pull some levers on your pricing.

to create some more money and capacity, but also then you hit a point again, where if you're the only one on your team, you're gonna hit this ceiling again, unless you have some support. And we were having this conversation yesterday, literally five people were like, my biggest pain point right now is that I need more hours in the day. And it's not like they're scatterbrained. These are like super, super high achieving.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (28:11.918)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (28:30.597)

women who are, have it, they have it all under control, right? They've got their finger on everything. They know everything that's going on. They're doing all the things and they just need more hours. They say, I just need more hours in the day to get it all done or I need to be more focused. But never in the converse, never, what never enters into the conversation is like, maybe,

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (28:48.226)

Yeah, god. I need to be more focused.

Shannon Mattern (28:56.411)

You don't have to be the one to even think about it. And then the other thing is like, I need to add to my team. I need to add a virtual assistant, but when would I find the time to train them and download my brain into them? They want to clone themselves to create more time.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (29:08.768)

yeah.

Well, unfortunately, that is the typical entrepreneur that I will lovingly say is has, you know, is in reactionary mode now and has waited too long to hire. And I definitely know that feeling and it's not a very good feeling. And it's problematic. So my very first OBM client was very similar. She wasn't in the developing space, but she was so beyond capacity and needed to hire a VA like eons ago.

Shannon Mattern (29:17.125)

You

Yes. Yep.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (29:41.856)

And so when I came on her team, you know, that was one of the first things we did. We streamlined the systems, hired the VA. So if you are at a place where you are really don't have the bandwidth to hire the VA, it's actually quite common. You bring on an OBM and the OBM hires the VA and they work together for like a 90 day period. And then usually the VA stays or maybe the business is in a financial place where they can keep on the OBM to keep scaling and so on. there are definitely

avenues where an OBM can come in for a period of time to help a business scale like that. But yeah, it's very disheartening when you are like, I'm ready to delegate now. But my goodness, I don't have any bandwidth to do that. And it's so, so, so common.

Shannon Mattern (30:28.935)

I remember having a business coach tell me personally, like sometimes you have to slow down to speed up. And I'm like, that's just like the worst thing you could tell me. Like I have to slow down, you know? And, but I think it's true in the case of like, I think of it as like, you're driving your car up a hill and you just, you're staying in fifth gear and you're just trying to get up this hill in fifth gear and you're never downshifting.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (30:35.096)

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (30:43.128)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (30:59.523)

And so you're just like burning the engine out because you aren't doing anything to, you're just like, if I just give it more gas, you're the engine. You're like, let me just give it more gas. What happens? You don't go, you get stuck. You don't go any farther up the hill. You just end up destroying your engine. And so, you know, everything you're saying about this role,

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (31:06.734)

Yeah, and you are the engine and you are the engine that you're burning out. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (31:26.285)

on the right team at the right time, like for the right person at the right time can be that shift that you need to create what you're really here to create. Cause none of us are here to work 12 hours a day, seven days a week.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (31:39.274)

No, we are definitely not. No, no, no. And I think that's why you have to really have a strong why. Like it's one of the big things that I really kind of harp about. And I know, I know it's the same on your end, but like, it's not easy being an entrepreneur. It's not easy growing your leadership in this way. I know that even myself at the beginning of my journey, like I was like team management, like even as an OBM, was like, I'm like, not a people person, you know, I'm not.

I'm not gonna be a great team manager. didn't have any experience. mean, yes, I had my landscaping company, but I was telling myself, I don't have any experience managing team like a crazy person. So it's very, very hard. And if you don't have a good enough why, you'll either stay in that kind of role of doing all the things yourself, or you will push through. And like you're saying, slow down a little bit.

to speed up and I think it is very frustrating because you're finally like making movement in your business and now you're like you feel like things have been so slow now they're picking up now I have to slow down more to speed up again but it is the way it is.

Shannon Mattern (32:45.639)

Yeah, and I think it's worth it because what's the alternative, right? The alternative is you physically burn yourself out. We're not meant to sustain that level of work. And also, if you went into business for yourself, for freedom, for flexibility, for financial independence, and you find yourself trapped by how you run your business,

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (32:49.046)

Yeah, burning yourself out.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (33:12.158)

Mm-hmm. The job you've created for yourself.

Shannon Mattern (33:15.665)

Yeah. And like, that's not okay. That's not what we're here for. And so that's why I love talking to you about this because I do think it is, I know it's a missing piece for my business. And, you know, I hear, I see it as a missing piece for a lot of the high achieving women web designers that I talked to who just keep working harder to get freedom and then they're stressed out and I'm like,

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (33:28.014)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (33:45.139)

We need to shift this because working more is not getting you closer to what you want.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (33:50.594)

Yeah, or getting another client, it's just, it's more to manage, right? Eventually it becomes too much.

Shannon Mattern (33:54.451)

Yeah. So good. So what are some of the opportunities you see right now? It's 2025. I know you started OBM school in whatever, 2020. Things have changed from 2020 to 2025. What are some of the, I guess,

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (34:14.296)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (34:23.503)

shifts that you've seen in the landscape and opportunities you see for people in the OBM industry right now.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (34:29.654)

Yeah, I mean, so, I mean, obviously AI is on the scene and I've fully embraced AI in our business and in the way we do things. And I think that's been quite of a big change because it can really make our lives easier as OBMs when it comes to creating strategic plans or extracting notes or extracting action items from things or

you know, composing emails, like, so there's, there's all of that. but then there's also this whole entrepreneurial scene that's just exploding. and I think for me, it's such an amazing time to be an OBM because, know, we have all these like service as a software, like SaaS products out there that, you know, make running businesses.

easier, but then more complicated and in need of having a manager to come and make sure that all of those integrations are working. And, you know, we're tracking key performance indicators to make sure that, that website page isn't down, right? The funnel is still working and all that good stuff. So I think that it's just been more and more fun. And I would say dynamic being an OBM. It can be overwhelming because there's all of that tech.

And then the biggest thing for me would be, and this takes me back to that whole dating project thing, is there's a lot of sketchy businesses coming on the scene. And so you have to really be able to discern who are the people that you wanna work with and who are the people that you don't wanna be working with. And I think that really comes down to having a good dating project, like a website built, right? And then you're like, you're a wonderful human being, or you know what, this isn't gonna work.

But I think it's just becoming more and more of a thing for people to use remote support. And I think that's great. And I don't think that will ever change anytime soon for us. And I'm really interested to see where AI will head and how it will make our lives easier. And then also in need of still somebody to manage the pieces, right?

Shannon Mattern (36:47.419)

Yeah, I, well, one, the dating project, I love that you call it a dating project. talk about it similarly. We call it paid discovery and the Web Designer Academy, but I never really think I haven't thought of it as like a dating project, although I do talk about it as like, this is one of the benefits of it is that if at the end.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (36:58.625)

Mm, yes.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (37:07.854)

Yeah, because you're probably not expecting something long term, right? You're just like a wham bam, I'm gonna get in there and set up your thing. And then when we do the ongoing stuff, it will be like very, I'm not gonna need to have strategy calls with you every week or every month, right? It's just business as usual.

Shannon Mattern (37:27.707)

Yeah. And I think of like paid discovery as like, let me get to know enough about you to like give you, I'm going to get paid to give you a proposal, you know, for this. And then after going through this process to get enough information to like give you a strategy, if you are terrible and I don't want to work with you, I'm going to decline to make an offer at the end. I'll be like,

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (37:39.052)

Right, absolutely. That's a big part of OBM school as well. Amen.

Shannon Mattern (37:56.391)

Here's everything, like here's your strategy, here's the plan. You paid for this and I'm going to decline to give you an offer to work together.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (38:05.046)

Yeah. And maybe there's like suggestions. find, you know, I would, I will imagine that there's, you know, starting a website from scratch probably means that business is in a startup mode and needs a VA. And then maybe the overhaul or the revamp of a website is more of a OBM. And also too, it's like very, you know, if you're revamping someone's website and they're investing, like one of my best clients at the very beginning of my OBM.

relationship that sent me clients I loved was a branding expert. They were getting high quality. So I imagine you have people listening right now that are like, I've got some really great clients that are making good money and need managerial support in their business. And so yes, just like you were saying, you have that initial web design project or overhaul project, and then you can really discern if they are normal.

or not. Isn't that what it all comes down to these days? Red flags.

Shannon Mattern (39:02.067)

Right. Red flags or green flags. my gosh. So just kind of thinking about our audience of web designers, developers. also have people that listen to this podcast who are neither of those, but just love that we talk about packaging, pricing, marketing boundaries, mindset, all of that stuff. Who are a few of the different like avatars that you see that could either

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (39:21.923)

Yeah.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (39:29.646)

No.

Shannon Mattern (39:32.387)

add OBM services to what they're doing or maybe hire an OBM or even maybe like shift into pivot into OBM services.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (39:44.078)

Absolutely. So I would imagine that the avatar that would pivot into OBM services would be maybe looking for some ongoing retainer revenue. Because I also have OBMs in our community that are very project-based. They're like, I don't want to commit to anybody. They do things like launch management. But I think for your ideal avatar, would be a developer or a designer who is

understands that, you know, they have the talent. really, it's such a talent to be able to build and design these things, but then really has that need to sort of stay ongoing in the background, maybe, because we are, I mean, I really, I think of myself as the avatar. Like I'm a behind the scenes person through and through, like just give me my pajamas and some quiet. I don't want to see you in person. It's all good. So I really think that the avatar is,

There are so many different types, but if you are already working as a service support professional and you have the proof of concept, like I call it losing your client virginity, like you know you can get clients, you know you're hardworking, and it's just about you deciding that, hey, maybe I'm gonna keep one or two clients on ongoing so that I don't have to freak out every month when I don't have enough projects or when it's the holidays and people aren't calling me.

And then also sometimes through those clients, you get other word of mouth clients in that way. So I think it's fair game for anybody to step into this space truly. But you have to really want to be in the big picture. Because I know from, I always compare it to like the VA to OBM, there's a lot of VAs that just want to implement. They don't want the responsibility or the accountability of having to like be sort of.

partnering with their clients in that way. They want to just sort of be delegated to and do all the things. and I just, with all the developers that I've worked with and we have one on our team right now, like he's very big picture and actually he helps us, like he's very much of a strategic role in my business naturally, because I force everybody to be OVMs all in all. But, you know, he's, he's...

Shannon Mattern (41:58.259)

you

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (42:01.984)

really knows what's going on in my business because we have these conversations about call to action buttons and what is the real purpose of this. And then there's a whole, that whole sort of space of like you were saying about yourself, Shannon, with your business and other developers who have reached that invisible ceiling of no more revenue for you, they need an OBM. They need an OBM to help them figure out what they can do to

Because it's like you, it's like, always use, I haven't said this for a while, but I usually say it on the daily, but you can't see the label from inside the bottle. And sometimes you need somebody who can come in as a third party and look at your business and look at your strengths and weaknesses from the outside and say, Hey, you need an OBM that can compliment X, Y, and Z. Cause it's different for everybody. You know, what I need in my business is not going to be the same as what you need in your business because I'm me and you are you and

Shannon Mattern (42:38.387)

Yeah.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (42:58.68)

So I think that's the other piece is just recognizing that we're all very unique individuals. We've all built our businesses online in different, unique, and loving ways. And as such, you need to have somebody that you can really partner with to trust to be there so that you can actually go on holiday, right? And do the things that are going to fill you up.

so that you can stay motivated about what you're doing in your business, right? Because that's the other thing, you if you're not a happy camper in your business, then you're have to go back to your corporate nine to five. And there's nothing more frightening to me than that.

Shannon Mattern (43:32.179)

you

Shannon Mattern (43:38.643)

I couldn't agree with you more. had a moment two years ago where I thought I was going to go back to corporate, work with my sister. I loved my sister, loved working with her when we worked together. She had me like so sold on like how awesome this company that she works for and how flexible and all of the things. And you know, when it came right down to it, I was like, I can't like I

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (43:47.725)

Wow.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (43:57.214)

wow.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (44:05.678)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (44:07.171)

know you think it's amazing and I'm sure it is for corporate, but it's still corporate. It is still corporate. And I decided to choose the hard of weathering the challenging year than to go back to that. And I'm so, so, so glad I did because...

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (44:25.935)

my goodness. I'm so glad you didn't do that.

Shannon Mattern (44:29.983)

my gosh, but like the value of what I learned by making the decision not to I'm helping other people. We all go through challenging times in our business. There's just not going to be.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (44:37.71)

100%. And if you're not going through challenging times, then you might not be pushing yourself to your best.

Shannon Mattern (44:47.387)

Yeah, absolutely. And something you said earlier, you're like, we do OBM matchmaking. And then you kind of, just said something about like, you can't see the label from inside of the bottle. And I think that you are really speaking to a challenge that I have had personally, where I try to hire, I've tried to hire for probably an OBM role several different times. And I am not.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (44:56.502)

inside the bottle.

Shannon Mattern (45:16.613)

choosing, I'm not structuring the role correctly. I'm not like there because I don't know what I don't know about what I really need. I'm trying to clone myself.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (45:20.387)

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (45:25.486)

Yes, and in your defense, in your defense, it is a very particular onboarding that I think a lot of regular freelancers aren't really yet keen on, especially if they're new. Like, so for me, it took me about three years to realize, oh, it's a certain onboarding, it's a certain client, have to, I'm partnering, you know, I'm serving them more as a partnership role. So I think one of the things that I'm definitely gonna

hit you up on, you know it's gonna happen. Because I just love what you're doing and I think it's so important to, you know, find my students work. And so I'm definitely gonna, we'll have to speak about this after, but I think that it was probably also just a result of, I mean, we are control freaks as entrepreneurs and you love your business and you know it inside out. And so sometimes we don't necessarily give the reins to that OBM or they're not experienced enough.

Shannon Mattern (45:56.135)

Ha ha ha!

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (46:22.818)

with the onboarding to really fully understand what are the goals, what's the vision, what's happening here, how are we mapping this out so that I can give my client peace of mind knowing that I'm really in the know. Because I think a lot of the times when you start working with an OBM type role and they maybe aren't as experienced or don't really have that prowess around onboarding, it's sort of that VA relationship where you just sort of start dumping tasks on them and then before you know it, they're like knee deep.

you're aggravated because it's so much more work on your plate and the relationship sort of just dissolves and everybody feels bad. And I've been in that role, I've been in that spot, I've seen my students in that spot before. And when push comes to shove, it's like a particular onboarding that really helps and a pace as well that really helps you and the OBM figure it all out in a way that...

just works for you to have that peace of mind. That's what it's all about and not trust. It's hard.

Shannon Mattern (47:26.877)

I feel like it's so interesting because I've explored this on the podcast and I'm in our next level mastermind with our next level web designers figuring out how do we get in our own way? Where do we have our foot on the gas and the brake at the same time? And what is that like thing? What is that subconscious thing that we're believing about the world that is keeping us stuck? And so what came up for me was

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (47:42.704)

god, so true! So true!

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (47:50.136)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (47:53.699)

I don't like to ask for help because I'm afraid to give feedback if I don't like something or I want something different because I fear damaging the relationship. And so therefore I will happily delegate and train you, but then I'll be like, I'll just take this back. they did it to this point, but I don't like what they did here. So instead of having the uncomfortable for me conversation of, hey, can you change this?

because that feels like they're not gonna like me, I'm gonna lose like safety, security, my reputation. I have this other thing where I'm like, I teach web designers how to deal with difficult clients. I never wanna be a difficult client. And I have somehow equated feedback with being a difficult client and twisted that all up in my mind. So instead, I'm gonna just disempower you, do your work before you can do it.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (48:45.309)

wow.

Shannon Mattern (48:50.979)

not give you everything that you need to do your job well. And somehow these roles never work out because I'm just like, I can't let someone else do their job. So the best thing that I ever discovered was that I do that. And I have to, my goodness. It is so uncomfortable to say, but it's only uncomfortable for me.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (48:58.478)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (49:09.8)

Knowing is half the battle as GI Joe says.

It is so uncomfortable.

Shannon Mattern (49:20.401)

The other person is like, please tell me the things that I need to be successful at this, in this role. And I'm the being dishonest.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (49:20.94)

Well.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (49:27.278)

For me, that's a real green flag. That's a real green flag from a client perspective because you have accountability in your business and in the way that you manage. And this is why I can teach all the hard skills up the Wahoo, but the soft skills of leadership, having uncomfortable conversations, having that level of emotional intelligence where you can empathize and also being proactive is where...

Shannon Mattern (49:51.549)

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (49:53.036)

you can mitigate some of those things because obviously, I think it's pretty natural to feel like that. And when you have the right OBM, they are going to be on the lookout for those behaviors and also we'll have measures in place so that hopefully, mean, obviously nothing is perfect, but hopefully we can sort of mitigate it before it gets too out of hand, right?

Shannon Mattern (50:13.627)

Yeah, so good. my gosh. I have enjoyed this conversation with you like selfishly and I hope everybody else listening can just really see the value of adding these services to their business or adding an OBM to their business. So where can everybody go to learn more about the OBM school and what you do and how you can support them and all of the things?

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (50:15.64)

So good, Shannon. Me too.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (50:38.892)

Yes.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (50:43.032)

Well, we have an amazing little ditty for you guys over at obmschool.com forward slash web designer. That is our OBM starter kit for you guys, for the profitable web designer community. So we've made that available to you guys. I'm just, you know, I'm hanging around. You can always find me on social or at obmschool.com. And I think that that resource will really help you to see if OBM is something that you want to add to your tool belt.

as a service support professional.

Shannon Mattern (51:14.393)

Amazing. And what about people who are like, I need to add an OBM to my team.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (51:17.548)

Ooh, yeah. So if you need to add an OBM to your team, you can head on over to saranoket.com forward slash questionnaire. So saranoket is where my agency runs powered by accredited OBMs. And so matchmaking is one of the things that I think makes me feel like I'm able to give back and do a full circle with my students. So yeah, at saranoket.com is where all that matchmaking fun happens.

Shannon Mattern (51:43.475)

Amazing. Sarah, thank you so much for being here. It's always a pleasure to talk to you.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (51:45.902)

Thank you, Shannon. It always is. And I will be following up with you to matchmake somebody with you if you're down.

Shannon Mattern (51:54.543)

my gosh, I love it. And you all will get to hear about that on my income reports where I shared the behind the scenes of the business and talk about like what's going on. And so yeah, I'm excited to have that conversation with you too. So thanks everyone so much for listening and we'll see you back here next week. Bye.

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (51:58.764)

Ha ha ha!

Sarah Noked @theobmschool (52:08.44)

Thanks Shannon.