#128 – Creating Intentional Customer Journeys with Nadine Nethery

Shannon Mattern (00:02.562)

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Profitable Web Designer podcast. Today I am joined by Nadine Nethery who is an audience driven copywriter and customer experience strategist for savvy online business owners like all of you listening and your customers who want to intentionally attract, retain and wow their dream customers. So.

Nadine (00:02.748)

you

Shannon Mattern (00:25.356)

Nadine, I'm so excited to have you on the show and talk more about what you do and what it means to be a customer experience strategist. So welcome to the show.

Nadine (00:36.796)

Thanks so much for having me Shannon, so good to connect.

Shannon Mattern (00:40.822)

Yeah, so can you give me a little bit of your backstory? I'd love to know your journey to becoming a customer experience strategist and a conversion focused copywriter.

Nadine (00:53.116)

Yeah, absolutely. So I, like so many copywriters, stumbled into copywriting. Many of us never set out to be a copywriter. I didn't even know copywriting was a thing. So I look back on, God, almost 20 years, shows my age, in the corporate marketing and PR world. So I did PR for a global car company for ages.

traveled the world with automotive media to motor shows, lived the fancy life, fasted hotels, whining and dining journalists, and really finding unique angles to present our product as the one that's so much better than everyone else's. Ultimately, I decided to have kids like so many of us women do, and that didn't fit the bigger picture of said, you know.

corporate. So I was made redundant with a three-month-old baby after 10 years in the business and it totally shattered my world, sent me into an identity crisis, doubting myself, is it me? Am I good enough? And the hormones didn't help, obviously, at the time. But, you know, looking back, that was probably the best thing that could have happened for me. And at the time I decided

that I wanted to have a impact beyond being a number in the corporate system. And I really started thinking about how I could apply my marketing skills, my corporate comm skills to small businesses and have a bigger impact that way. So really didn't work out what that could look like straight away. Had to pay some bills, went back into full-time employment and

by chance stumbled across content marketing. So I took a course while working full-time, having two kids at the time. And part of that course was a module on copywriting. And that's when it clicked. I went, my God, I can actually use my writing skills, my communication skills and get paid for it. So I really started taking on clients as a side hustle and

Nadine (03:11.16)

It very quickly became a matter of being too booked for my liking. I also felt pregnant with number three. So it came to that pivotal point in my life really, where I went on mat leave with my third one, kept working on the site to go, know, this is really the chance to see whether this is feasible, this can work. And yeah, eight years later, I'm still here.

I'm still writing copy for my clients, but I also have added and branched off into customer experience strategy, which, yeah, is my absolute passion. So really looking at, the copy as one component of the bigger picture because copywriting is important. Obviously, you know, that's what gets people to convert, but the before and after the purchase is just as important because.

People buy when the conditions are right, when the time is right, when the messaging's right, when they have the right mindset to feel like they're supported to make that purchase. And yeah, so nowadays I help people with the copy and the before and after to really make it a smooth customer experience and customer journey that organically guides people to that decision to invest.

Shannon Mattern (04:33.014)

I have so many questions because there were so many just juicy tidbits and interesting things in there that I want to dive into. And I love just being in this format where I have the opportunity to just go down all those little rabbit holes with someone and get really curious. so you mentioned that you quickly

book got booked out and got too many clients. Once you, once everything kind of clicked for you and you're like, I have, this is kind of where all of my experience like really comes together. I would love to know. And I'm sure all of our listeners would love to know, like, how did you get those first clients? Like what were the action steps that you took in those early days to, to make that happen?

Nadine (05:22.82)

Yeah.

Nadine (05:28.764)

So luckily a friend of mine has like one of Australia's largest baby expo's and she found out I was getting started and got me on board to take care of their social media copy, their blog posts, liaising with clients who had bought sponsorship packages and as part of that had blogging. And the good thing about that job or that gig was that I got

direct contact with all these vendors who clearly needed help with their copy. So I started with one client who still books me nowadays, which is mind blowing eight years later. But yes, I started working with her. She told her friends about me and it really quickly spiraled out of control that way, which is really a nice luxury. Obviously I was doing something right and people were resonating with what I had to offer.

Yeah, I feel like word of mouth is great, but a lot of business owners get a bit complacent with relying on word of mouth. yeah, I quickly had to work out that I need to show up, market, find other avenues to get in new clients as well.

Shannon Mattern (06:47.798)

word of mouth and I think it's like a, underutilized tool in our toolbox as, especially as web designers, right? Because the people listening to this podcast are like, well, I build websites that are supposed to get found. And so I think that I should also build a site for myself that gets me found and they don't, broaden themselves to other avenues of getting clients and

and you said that like your friend found out, I'm curious, like, did you tell her? Was it like in passing? Was it like just a side conversation? Like, how did this friend like find out that you were doing this?

Nadine (07:30.98)

Yeah, it was a conversation where, you know, like so many women, I was like, I'm doing this little thing on the side, you know, this little business and yeah, she's always been a, a big thinker, big dreamer. And so she said, you have to come and work with us. Like we'll get you, we'll get you in there. We'll get you started. And I'm so grateful to this day still. And it just shows that you have to mention what you do. You have to talk about yourself. It's not bragging. It's just.

You know, putting yourself out there and standing up for you genius and what you can add to the world.

Shannon Mattern (08:06.668)

Yeah, I totally relate to that where I actually kept my little Chinese side project a secret from a lot of the people in my life because A, I wasn't confident. I felt like a fraud calling myself a web designer, even though that's what I was getting paid to do at my day job. just wasn't my title. And I worried.

Nadine (08:31.931)

Mm.

Shannon Mattern (08:34.67)

that if my corporate job found out somehow that they would fire me before I was ready. so it felt so risky to just tell someone like, yeah, I do web design on the side. And the first time I did, my whole body flushed hot, my face turned red. I felt like I had just lied to this poor woman. And you know, but...

Nadine (08:46.3)

Hmm.

Shannon Mattern (09:02.514)

the first time I said it, she's like, I need a I need a web designer. Do you do WordPress? And I was like, Yeah, that's that's, I know that like the back of my hand. And like, that's kind of when I realized like, if I want clients, I can't keep what I do a secret.

Nadine (09:19.74)

And I think it's a female thing as well. Women just like to play small. don't know, we don't want to inconvenience people. We don't want to come across as showy. And as you said, there are so many people around us who are running businesses as well. So what I found out, for example, in our school community is that where we are based, I'm based on the rural outskirts of Sydney, so nature.

Shannon Mattern (09:27.298)

For sure.

Nadine (09:46.748)

of that location is that a lot of families run their own businesses. And so there are so many women in the school community who run their own businesses who are clearly too busy to do all the things in their small business. So, you know, if you don't communicate what you do, you're missing out on so many opportunities in your immediate circle as well.

Shannon Mattern (10:08.844)

Yeah, I mean, one of the first things that we do on like all of our like coaching calls or things inside of our programs is we share wins. And it is like pulling teeth to get women to say, Hey, I did this awesome thing and I'm really proud of myself. It takes a lot of practice for them to feel like they're not bragging or feel like their accomplishments don't take away from anybody else in there. And so

Yeah, I'm glad we're talking about this because I think it is a thing and it's important to find like people who are supportive and who do want to lift you up. And if you have an experience where someone wasn't supportive, those aren't your people, but that doesn't mean that there aren't people out there like that. I just, yeah, it does.

Nadine (10:56.74)

Hmm. Absolutely. And it takes practice, right? As you said, it's, it doesn't come natural and it doesn't get easier. I find you just have to push through the discomfort and just, yeah, own it.

Shannon Mattern (11:06.51)

Well, yeah, because you reached out to me and said, Hey, I'd love to be a guest on your podcast. And, you know, I reach out to people who have podcasts and I say the same thing and my hands still like still sweat. Even though I've been doing this, I've had a podcast since at least 2018. And, you know, I still reach out for opportunities, I still do that. And I still feel like I'm

I don't know being pushy or taking too much or something every time, but like the reality is like your, your outreach to me that was like so personal to like, Hey, here's how I think I can serve your audience is like a gift to me because we get to have a great conversation and I don't have to like go find, you know, I have a, I have a schedule that I publish weekly and

You're dropping awesome content that serves my audience right into my lap. So outreach can is a gift to your clients, everyone. And so I just, I encourage you to do it. And I love that you like are still putting yourself out there in different ways. Cause yeah, I think it's just, there's so much noise on social media, like a personalized note to me.

Nadine (12:13.052)

Hmm. Yep.

Shannon Mattern (12:32.586)

will get my attention way more than anything else that people are doing.

Nadine (12:38.374)

Yeah. And you know, opportunities usually don't come chasing you. They do sometimes, but most of the opportunities I have created for myself came from proactive outreach and putting myself out there as an option for business owners just like you. So, and you know, you get no's, but from every no, you know, you can learn something, you can learn what to do better. And no doesn't necessarily mean never, which I've learned as well. So you are on the radar.

Shannon Mattern (12:42.57)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (12:55.0)

So good.

Nadine (13:08.55)

put yourself out there and next time then looking for someone like you, it might just as well be your name in the mix.

Shannon Mattern (13:15.182)

So good. So it's so interesting that you're talking about like customer journey and like, like the before and after, and that people buy when the conditions are right. So we were having this, we just got back from a retreat with our next level mastermind students. And I personally was reflecting on an unintentional customer journey that I had created.

Nadine (13:41.852)

Hmm.

Shannon Mattern (13:42.254)

in 2022, 2023, because I had a mismanaged mind about some experiences I had had like enrolling students in my program. And you know how like we have a bad client experience and then we're like, well, I need to change this, this, this, this, this, this, and this to prevent that from ever happening again.

And so I was reflecting on it. was like, I made like the American Ninja warrior obstacle course to like, as a customer journey for my students or for my customers so that if they made it through this big, long obstacle course, then, you know, then we could consider maybe possibly working together. And I was like laughing about it because I'm like upon reflection.

Nadine (14:07.132)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (14:36.494)

It was like so self-protective to put that many obstacles up from like hearing about us to joining our program. And I see that now in hindsight, but, so of course, like in 2023 and 2024, we really worked on, you know, not making an obstacle course and making it like a really nice path with lots of stepping stones where you can take your time and move at your own pace and

Nadine (14:47.9)

Mm.

Shannon Mattern (15:05.954)

be nudged forward as appropriate and just give you the space to explore your way there instead of, I don't know, pulling you forward before you're ready or also throwing up some kind of crazy obstacle course for you to get there. So it's just so funny that you mentioned that because I was coming off of that experience reflecting on.

the unintentional customer journeys that we create when we don't realize that we, when we don't have an intentional customer journey. So I say, I don't know where I want that conversation to go, but I'm super curious on your thoughts about that.

Nadine (15:35.964)

Mmm.

Nadine (15:47.58)

Yeah, it is, I find, especially nowadays, 2024 with the economy, all the things happening around us. I truly believe that there simply isn't a linear customer journey anymore. You know, like the funnel where we go, okay, we need seven emails here to go into this step and then five emails here, and then they're going to be ready to buy. It's simply...

doesn't happen that way anymore. There are so many touch points, so many channels people can interact with you on. And ultimately what I think we need to realize is that we can't control the customer's journey. Like they are going to come in at any angle. They're going to take any path. What we can do with strategic marketing though is we can influence their journey. And what I firmly believe is that really tapping into

paying close attention to their behavior and the signals they're sending you can really streamline that whole customer journey. And it then doesn't feel like this forced funnel that people go through because we're all savvy nowadays. If you're in the online business world, you know exactly what they're doing to you. You know, they're priming you, they're dropping the offer, then there's a webinar. So everyone knows what's happening. So I really don't buy into all this anymore. And

really feel like we need to start with the audience. We need to have a really, really clear understanding of what makes them tick, what are their problems, their struggles, so really diving deep into the mindset and then combining that with taking the signals via email marketing that they're sending, clicks, what they're engaging with and using that to really create a totally bespoke customer journey. And the good thing is you can, yeah.

automate most of that. And that means you're not selling all the time. You don't feel like you're, you know, this car salesman that pushes everything down their throat. It's just organic and it gives them what they need to hear when they need to hear it in the right format. And it takes a little bit of setting up, a little bit of getting to know the process and, but the effort you put in at the beginning, setting up this, you know, this journey really is going to pay off.

Nadine (18:09.989)

for you in the long run because it primes your audience and delivers them the offer when they're ready.

Shannon Mattern (18:18.614)

Okay. All of this is fascinating. And so from the perspective of like, when you start to work with a new client who has come to you and has said like, listen, I understand that this traditional funnel model that we've all been using, everyone's saying like, you know, funnels don't work or this isn't converting or nobody wants this. And they're making a lot of assumptions based on

the results that they're getting with the funnels that worked back in who knows when, and they're just trying to like reuse the same funnel and just put more traffic in it and it's getting diminishing and diminishing returns. They come to you and they're like, help, where do you start with, with a client?

Nadine (18:52.924)

Mm.

Nadine (19:07.244)

Yeah. It's funny. Funny you're saying that because a lot of clients come to me with exactly this problem where they had this successful program, successful course that used to convert really well. had this evergreen funnel and yeah, conversion rates really have just dropped considerably. And often the problem is that they haven't evolved the funnel and the offer and the messaging with what is going on in the world because you know,

pandemics, mindset shift, people also appreciate different format types, for example. So private podcasts are really popular. It really is a reflection of, you your offer, your funnel is never set in concrete. So what we do as a starting point is an in-depth audience survey. So I'm pretty geeky, love the data. So we totally set up these very strategic audience survey.

to help us identify different mindset patterns based on their experience with whatever my client is selling that will then help us identify messaging gaps. So how can we get them from this mindset to the next? And it gives us incredible direct insights into what is going on in their lives right now. What are they obsessed with right now? What keeps them up at night? And this particular survey

and the results that we're getting is the starting point for everything. So it underpins the messaging for the sales copy. It also often becomes the starting point for a bispo customer experience. So I've used it to shape a quiz funnel, for example, where we then could really tailor that messaging to each of the profiles that we identified. It has resulted in a choose your own adventure type

sales funnel as well. So you can have a lot of fun with it. again, the goal, the end goal of all this research is that your messaging is going to be super sticky and people are going to read it and go, my God, is she reading my mind? And the whole experience is smooth. So before the purchase, you are dropping all the nuggets they need to hear to be ready to actually check out your sales page. So you've done all the heavy lifting before they.

Nadine (21:34.38)

come to the point of purchase and then very important as well. So you need to continue that support and that you know, care factor after the purchase as well. So you can't just go, you know what, you bought, great, I've got your money. Let's just leave you on to your own devices. So really taking those insights to create an amazing onboarding journey as well to give them little notches to get the most out of the experience.

Shannon Mattern (22:02.808)

So our web designers who are listening to this and are hearing from clients that are coming to them and saying, hey, I need help. I think I need to rebrand. I think I need a redesign. What I was doing isn't converting like it used to. And they want to partner with someone to just reinvent.

Shannon Mattern (22:31.822)

Do you collaborate with designers on building these customer journeys together? How do you actually implement what you have planned out and come up with?

Nadine (22:48.484)

Yeah, so I don't directly collaborate with web designers. So I often set people up with the strategies so they have access to all the audience data that we collect so they can tap into it whenever they need to create content. And then what I create based on that is semi wireframed copy. So basically they can hand it off to the web designer and

Yeah, the web designer can picture how it sits on the page, where to add the images. So it really makes life easy for web designers as well. And the feedback I've received is they really appreciate not just having walls of text and having to work out how it should sit there. So yeah, really having a copywriter who understands how the reader needs to be guided on the page to get the message.

Shannon Mattern (23:42.622)

yeah, it's definitely a gift for those designers who are not copywriters who have the responsibility to be on the client to bring their copy or partner with copywriters to collaborate and create to really have that laid out for them.

in a really strategic way so that they can put their flourish and their touch and make it really like stand out. So yeah, I'm just thinking of all of the listeners who are like, wait, I want this for my clients. And I would love for someone else to do this work for me. That collaborating with someone like you would bring a ton of value to their client projects.

Nadine (24:24.72)

Yeah, it definitely helps.

Nadine (24:32.912)

Hmm, absolutely. And you know, often it even from a rebrand perspective, all this work, the research that we're doing can help graphic designers as well, for example, in really understanding, you know, the visuals, the color palette that people need to, yeah, to really be spoken to on a deeper level.

Shannon Mattern (24:51.33)

Yeah. So what are some of your favorite examples of like client customer experience transformations? Like what was happening before and what changes did you make? then, you know, what, what started happening?

Nadine (25:05.54)

Yeah, so I love, honestly, clients who come to me with a totally open mind where they go, you know, you're the expert, you know what you're doing. So I trust your expertise. They usually end up being the most successful and most rewarding project. So I recently worked with someone on their virtual summit. So she has been doing summits for years, really successful. So she definitely had the format.

down pat, but we went deep. we actually started with an audience survey to give it an edge to really get to know the attendees that we're going to speak to. So not only would that help our copy and the sales page convert, but she could also then use that to pitch the right speakers, select the right topics and really create an agenda that was not only.

you know, seats, but giving people quick wins and prime them for her offer that she was launching off the back of that. And as part of that survey, I quickly, very quickly worked out that there was three very distinct personas, know, audience attendee personas, and they had very distinct belief systems when it came to that particular product that she was selling. I, yeah, discussed with her.

creating a choose your own adventure type of summit, something that wasn't out there. It created more work for her, obviously creating custom tripwire pages for the all access pass. Really every attendee based on the quiz they took at the beginning of the summit was then put into their own little experience for the summit. So they had bespoke agendas that they were sent every day. They had suggestions around speakers.

to check out the presentations that will get them the most value and the result was amazing. Like the feedback from attendees was so good because they felt like it wasn't wasting their time. They had the guidance, they got actual wins from the summit and yeah, it's definitely going to mean that they're going to attend her next event because they had such a good experience and

Nadine (27:23.728)

they're primed to buy from her, even if they didn't convert after this summit, the experience she created as part of this free event is just a signal and a reflection of what they can expect inside her paid office. sometimes I feel, you know, customer experience, seems like this fluffy extra that people don't really understand and they don't really value sometimes as an investment, but you know, customer loyalty and people talking about your brand because it's just,

this remarkable experience that you created is worth so much because these people are doing not only the selling for you, but they're going to be buying into anything you have to offer because they are just so fascinated with the experience, with the value and with the journey you create for them. really paying attention to how you can support your customers rather than just taking their money is going to guarantee continued business success, long-term growth.

and make your marketing so much easier.

Shannon Mattern (28:26.678)

I am fascinated by how you segmented, for lack of a better word, based on belief systems. Can you share more about maybe some different examples of belief systems and how you would customize a journey based on a different belief system?

Nadine (28:50.628)

Yeah, absolutely. So, let's take, you know, web designers, for example, so you can, really, for example, take people who believe, you know, it's not worth the investment, right? Why should I spend thousands on a website when I can DIY this, you know, all these nice templates that Squarespace and ShowEd have for you, the free ones. So you can really speak to that and pass those, you know, beliefs, full builds believes that, you know, it's not that hard to build a website. It's a really.

address that and prime them to shift the mindset. You can have people who go, you know, I like the idea of outsourcing, but I'm going to get a template for now. So you can speak to that. For example, if you, as a web designer, sell templates, you can totally lean in on that and say, you know, templates are great for a certain stage in your business. If you're just starting out and you're not quite sure whether this is where you want to go, you know, go all in on templates and then you can.

I really present them with your collection of templates and people who are ready to outsource, have an issue with the price tag. Again, you can use case studies in this instance, for example, to show how much the investment someone made in your, in your services has paid for paid off for them. So let your customers do the selling for you rather than you having to do the convincing. So it's, it's really, you know, flipping the coins are starting with your audience.

and seeing what they need to hear rather than starting with your sales agenda and going, you I need to sell three VIP days, however that might look like. So it's starting with your audience, working out what they're lacking to be ready to invest, what their best path forward is, because not everyone is primed and ready to invest thousands and is going to get, you know, the best outcomes from working with you. So you want to avoid disappointment.

And it's really putting yourself into your customer shoes. I know it sounds easy, but again, having conversations with past customers, with people who reached out, but for some reason didn't end up investing in your brand, asking them what, what stood between them and investing, you know, apart from the price tag. So having intentional conversations and really taking note and learning from those and then seeing how you can.

Nadine (31:13.86)

incorporate that in your marketing, in your sales calls as well. How can you really be upfront about those objections and address them on the call rather than hiding from them? it's, yeah, investing time to really be conscious and, yeah, put your customer at the center of everything you do, every decision, every email you send, every, you know, strategy that you implement.

Shannon Mattern (31:40.898)

Here's what I love so much about everything that you just said is one, you're not making anybody wrong for how they think from this perspective. You're saying like, hey, there are three different belief systems here or however many you might uncover. All of these are valid. I can understand why each one of these would think the way that they think. Here's what they're really afraid of.

Here's what's underneath. I, as the expert, know some things that they don't know, so I can educate them on those things. Maybe that will shift them. Maybe it won't. That's okay. But I'm not making any of them wrong. And so what I always hear from web designers when we're talking about finding clients, right? We talk about here at the Web Designer Academy, we call them pricing paradigms. We've noticed...

that there are typically three different pricing paradigms. You basically describe them to a T when you talked about those belief systems, we have investment minded clients who see their website as like a revenue generating asset for them and they're willing to, and they see the opportunity cost of them spending their own time on doing this. So they're like, not only do I see that it's going to cost me in the future, if I try to do this myself,

Nadine (32:45.564)

you

Shannon Mattern (33:06.774)

I also see that this is a revenue generating asset for me. So if I hire the right person and I pay for this, not only I'm gonna like generate even more revenue because I'm not spending my time on it and I'm working with the expert to like create this thing. So I'm gonna create even more than I could if I just built this thing myself. Then we have like the hybrid minded client, which is the person who's like, yeah, I see.

Nadine (33:13.116)

Hmm.

Shannon Mattern (33:34.872)

that this is a revenue generating asset. I'm not quite ready to take the risk of like going all in. I'm willing to spend some of my time. I understand there's a cost to that, but let's go, let's build this asset. And then there's an expense minded client who's like, I think of this as money gone forever. I'd rather spend my time. I don't really think about more money being on the way. I just think of like money gone, that's unsafe. Let me do this.

as easily as possible. And so what the mistake that a lot of people who come to work with us or listen to this podcast make is they say, well, how can I just find and work with investment minded clients? I don't want to talk to anybody else. I don't want to even talk to those expense minded clients. I don't want to deal with hybrid minded clients. I just want to skip over all of that. And only I want to find the magical room.

Nadine (34:21.404)

Hmm.

Shannon Mattern (34:32.76)

where all the investment minded clients are hanging out and only speak to them and everyone else needs to like have the special knock and the secret code and whatever to even be able to talk to me. And so my philosophy I think is very similar to what you're saying is that I'm gonna talk to everyone and nobody's wrong and I may or may not have an offer for everyone.

Nadine (34:44.604)

Hmm.

Shannon Mattern (35:02.21)

but we teach our students to have a sustainable offer for everyone in that category. And just by nature of their experience with how well I treat them and how I acknowledge them and I value them and I don't dismiss their real feelings, they have the potential to grow into that investment-minded client with me. I'm going to take their hand wherever they are and lead them on the journey to

knowing the things that they don't know, if I really truly believe that your website's a revenue generating asset for your business and if you let me handle it for you, you can make many, many, many times more than if you do it all yourself or you try to do half of it yourself, then I'm going to talk about that, but I'm also going to let them make their own decision at the end of the day. And that's how we think about it here.

Nadine (35:48.538)

Yeah.

Nadine (35:54.352)

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I totally agree. you're, you know, what's wrong with having those aspirational people in your audience who are simply not ready to invest yet, but they love what you do. They love the websites you put out there. They join your mailing list. If you're not speaking to them or, know, you're not giving him a.

giving them a platform to be part of that greater conversation. Those aspirational people are going to get elsewhere. They're going to unsubscribe and go, my God, like the judgment, I can't deal. So really inviting them to follow along until they're ready is going to be such a smart move. You're just going to nurture them. They're going to keep following along. You're going to share the amazing websites you're designing for people. And whenever they are ready, they're going to be coming to you because you gave them, you know.

platform, you invited them into their space before they were ready and it's worth so much taking people along for the ride.

Shannon Mattern (36:56.686)

I love that. And you also like, like you said, you, weren't judging them for not being ready yet. If I think back to like my customer journey in 2022, like late 2022, early 2023, I can't say that I wasn't coming with that energy of like, this is the best thing ever. Why wouldn't you do this? Like, like I know I can help you just come on. Just like,

jump way across these two steps that are actually way too far apart for you to feel safe and jump. But I'm like, come on, just trust me, just jump. And they're like, but no, I'd love it if you put a few more steps in and stop telling me to jump so fast. Like I'm not ready. And so, yeah, go ahead.

Nadine (37:44.732)

Hmm. Yeah. And I always feel, I feel like it's an opportunity as well to, to look at your, you know, office suite as well. So obviously one-on-one work, if you are a service provider, you know, it's going to pay your bills and that's where you want to have the bulk of your, your income for now. But how can you serve those people who potentially, you know, even want a quick strategy session with you, for example, to have a look at their.

DIY template work to give them a few tips, how they can optimize it, what they can tweak to, to make it better. Or could you have a membership for people who are DIYing their website to support them with accountability sessions? yeah, it just gives you another opportunity to serve those people until they are ready to outsource. So I have a membership, for example, the Copy Confidence Collective, and that is

specifically designed for people who love what I do. They simply don't have the funds to book me at the moment or they're not quite ready. They're in that space where, you know, they would love to, but they're not quite ready and it's perfectly designed to prime them to be ready. So I give them, you know, my thoughts, my feedback, critiques on their copy, on their DIY copy. And, they also get a discount on my VIP days. So once they're inside, they get a taste for.

know, my strategic thinking, the ideas that I can deliver. And a lot of them go on to book copy days with me down the track because they just realize how valuable it is to have someone write the copy for them because it's something that I can do a lot quicker and, you know, a lot better and more strategically for them. So there is a space for those people on your email list and you just need to find a way to support them until they're ready to take that big step.

Shannon Mattern (39:36.79)

I love that too, from the perspective of kind of circling back to our conversation about marketing. When you have something that's like a stepping stone on your journey, that's like a give, where you get to reach out to someone and say, hey, I have this thing to offer you that's going to add value to you and your audience, would you like?

this as like the first stepping stone. Kind of like you and I on this podcast, you reach out and said, Hey, I have some value to give to your audience. Would you like this? And I'm like, yes, please. You know, and that's like the first step in a journey to then like inviting them to learn more about the next step and the next step and the next step. And it makes marketing so much easier when you're marketing.

Like a gift instead of like, and not to say that you shouldn't market yourself. I totally think that we, should, but like our clients aren't really buying us. They're buying the results and the outcomes, that we help them create, which is one of the reasons why we get so weird about selling ourselves and you know, all of that. But I just think it's, it's really fantastic when you have, when you can have that smaller step.

Nadine (40:49.692)

Hmm.

Shannon Mattern (41:04.142)

whatever that is so that you can do outreach from a place of generosity and then it makes it feel so less awkward to start that relationship with someone who you're like, I'm okay to let this unfold over however long it needs to take instead of like, well, unless they become a client right away, it didn't work or whatever.

Nadine (41:23.9)

Mm.

Nadine (41:32.484)

Yeah. And, absolutely. And again, that's where segmentation comes into you. So if you go about it strategically and again, pay attention to the signals that your audience, that your subscribers are sending you, you can even let them decide when they receive the offer. So let's say, you know, you can send them an email about your templates. If someone clicks on the link to check out the templates, you can then

funnel them into a mini, you know, pitch sequence, because clearly if you're there to outsell us, he wouldn't click the template link. So I really sent like you say their behavior as a signal to send them follow up content and go, you know, here is what X, Y, Z, you know, this customer made with my templates. I really give them little nudges and little reassurances that this might just be the solution for them. And again, putting your

subscriber behind the steering wheel of their customer journey just takes the pressure off and it's automated and you don't feel like you're pushing the sell and your email system is doing it for you.

Shannon Mattern (42:45.23)

So good. just a couple more questions before we wrap up. First one is what are some first steps that our listeners can take to start implementing this type of customer experience in their own web design businesses?

Nadine (43:05.872)

Yeah, so really start with having those intentional conversations with your clients, those people who inquired who didn't end up booking you for whatever reason and try to implement strategic question in your onboarding surveys and in your offboarding surveys that really tap into that mindset. What made them book you? What made you different? What were they struggling with at the time?

And then also those quick wins, the mindset shifts. So that means you're getting fresh insights and fresh audience intel on autopilot. You can also send a survey, as I said, it needs to be strategic with open-ended questions. So you really get that, you know, that juicy language, those amazing statements you can use in your copy and then take the time to have a look through it and pick up patterns. And often that survey is really where the penny drops, where you go, my God,

These are my types of customers. That's what each of them needs to hear. And that's when you can then sit down and map out the individual journey. So, you know, which case studies can I present customer A with to see what's possible with my templates? What can I tell customer B who's ready to invest big dollars in my business? Which case studies work for them and what results and what mindset shifts can I present them with? So,

It's, it all starts with your customer. sounds easy, but yeah, having intentional conversations. And I feel a lot of business owners just because we've got so much on our plates. They skip the foundation. So this part, I know my customer, I know them inside out, but actually going to the source and getting fresh insights is yeah, it's priceless and it can really shape your copy, your marketing, your customer journey. I said, so.

Yeah, start with your audience, have a real close look at how they interact with your brand, how you can create amazing surprise and delight touch points even that take them off guard and invite them to reply to those emails. It's, there are so many opportunities. You just need to sometimes think outside of the box and yeah, go out there and sometimes take risks as well. So don't just send the same emails as everyone else. You can experiment in your business, you know.

Nadine (45:29.028)

you can see what works and if it didn't work well you know for next time so have fun and and really see you know how you can surprise and delight along the way.

Shannon Mattern (45:40.45)

That is so good. And two things came to my mind while you were saying that is one, like the world changes so fast and what you thought you knew about your customers a year ago could be completely different today based on just, you know, what the world looks like today. So, you know, their motivations, their values, their life situation could be completely different as to what

their what they thought in 2024 versus 2025. So, you know, just saying, yeah, well, we've done that work five years ago. It's not going to like the world is a very different place today than it was even five years ago. you know, I think that that's that's something that I was thinking about when it's like, yeah, we've done that survey work, but we did it 18 months ago and the world is even a different place now.

Nadine (46:36.508)

This

Shannon Mattern (46:38.936)

than it was 18 months ago. And then, you know, the second thing that came to my mind is like, we make so much of what our customers do and don't do about us, especially as like solopreneurs who are like building businesses. And it's like, they, they didn't click on this. They must not want it or I'm not good enough or my branding needs change or like all of these things. And when you, when you follow the data and when you ask people,

and hear from their mouth why they did or didn't do what they did, what they chose to do. Nine times out of 10 is going have nothing to do with you and everything to do with them. And so you don't have, you're not changing the wrong things because you're mis- misappropriating what their intentions were and thinking that they're doing, that they mean something that they don't mean. And so you get to, you get to

Nadine (47:18.492)

Mm.

Shannon Mattern (47:36.736)

Again, not make it all about you, make it all about the customer and you will have so much more like traction and success with that. So, so good. So the last question that I ask everybody that comes on the show is what belief about yourself did you have to change to get to where you are today?

Nadine (47:48.324)

Absolutely, yeah.

Nadine (48:01.564)

good question. Probably that I can deliver so much to my clients' businesses. When I first started out as a copywriter, I was more an order taker. Where they go, need three emails in this funnel and then I need the sales page. So I would give them what they wanted. Whereas I quickly worked out that actually,

what they want is not necessarily always what they need. So I really needed to embrace that. I'm more a strategist. I can add so much more to my clients' businesses. so nowadays I don't shy away from telling them that, sure, I'm not sure we should do it this way. You know, why don't we start it this way and you're going to get much more out of it. So really believing in your strengths and what you can deliver to customers.

you know, businesses, lives, et cetera. So embracing who you are, what your strengths are, and really applying them to your business and to every client project rather than, I don't know, know, playing small and giving people what they want. So really not being afraid to say no sometimes as well when it doesn't feel aligned and you go, you know, I could do this and I could take the money, but I know exactly that it's not going to get you the results.

Yeah, leaning into your strength and sticking up for yourself. That's probably it.

Shannon Mattern (49:34.19)

So good. So that is the perfect place to wrap up this episode. Can you tell everyone who is listening where they can go to connect with you, learn more about you, get in your world, get on your email list, all the things.

Nadine (49:49.55)

All the things. So if you want to connect with me, the best spot is probably Instagram at can do content or my website, can do content.com. I also currently I'm halfway through a free customer experience, what advent calendar. It's a private podcast with daily episodes that look at all aspects of the customer journey before, during and after the purchase and

They give you little tips and tweaks for various things that are important. really connecting onto to this conversation that we just had. that's free with the link that I'll provide Shannon with. Also, if you want to find out more about audience driven, behavior driven email marketing and how you can really put your subscribers behind the steering wheel of their customer journey, I also have a free mini training that you can.

have a look at, it takes you through some real examples from within my business that hopefully spark your ideas as well and your creativity and show you how easy it is to implement.

Shannon Mattern (51:00.266)

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for being here. I will link up all of that in the show notes. And yeah, it was really fun talking to you and getting to learn more about this.

Nadine (51:12.87)

Thanks so much for having me Shannon. Such a good chat.