Automating Client Management with Cameron McBeth of Dubsado

Shannon Mattern: Welcome to the Profitable Web Designer Podcast, where we're all about helping extraordinary web designers like you to stop undercharging over delivering and overworking, and finally create the profitable, sustainable, and scalable web design business you've been dreaming of. I'm your host Shannon Mattern, founder of the Web Designer Academy where we teach the business side of running a web design business. So if you wanna make a consistent full-time income as a web designer, but you're struggling with things like pricing and boundaries and mindset and marketing and you're just tired of going it alone, well my friend, you're in the right place. But before we dive into this week's episode, I wanna invite you to sign up for our totally free profitable pricing framework training that breaks down five mindset shifts to five x your prices without working five times harder. Just go to https://webdesigneracademy.com/pricing and enter your name and email address and I'll send you our proprietary pricing framework that will totally transform what you think about how much you really can charge for web design. So go sign up https://webdesigneracademy.com/pricing and then meet me back here for this week's episode. Okay.

Shannon Mattern: Hey everyone, welcome to this week's episode of the Profitable Web Designer Podcast. I am so excited to have you listen to this episode today because I have a special guest, Cameron McBeth. He is the director of education at Dubsado and he has a strong passion for educating business owners on how to use the platform to its fullest capacity and enhancing the way that designers, developers, online service providers use systems within their day-to-day business. Dubsado is like the unofficial platform that all of our Web Designer Academy students love and use and rave about and help each other with and I am so, so excited to have you here on the show today. So Cameron, can you tell me just a little bit more about you and what you do at Dubsado?

Cameron McBeth: Yeah, Shannon, thank you so much for having me. So I am the director of education at Dubsado and my entire job is trying to teach people how to use the system. Dubsado is a very complex system. There's a lot to it. And so my responsibility is to take things that are complex and boil them down in really simple ways that people who are just trying to get into business, trying to get their business started, they can jump into our system and not be overwhelmed immediately when they come in. And so that's primarily what my job is. And then I also do a lot of the team training. So when we hire new employees at Dubsado, I'm involved in getting everyone up to speed, teaching them the system. So anything that has to do with training, training, content, education, that's kind of my wheelhouse.

Shannon Mattern: Awesome. So Dubsado like you said, is very complex, but it's also super powerful and it's like the magic tool that our web designers have in their toolbox to make them look like super legit, super professional, like help them give their clients an amazing onboarding and project management experience. Can you give me a little bit of an overview of like what Dubsado does for service providers?

Cameron McBeth: Yeah, that's a really great question. So in any type of business you're going to have some type of process that you go through with your clients. So you might have a website and you have a contact page on your website and someone fills it out and they're interested in working with you. What Dubsado is really good at is whenever you get new leads who are interested in working with you, finding more about the products that you have or the design work that you do, it's basically taking them through that entire client experience from the moment that they're interested in working with you all the way through to delivering that project for them. And it can even get parlayed into website maintenance, different things like that if you would want to. That's it. At its core, what Dubsado does is get everything from when someone's interested in working with you, getting them to agree to your pricing, sign a contract, the payment collecting, all of that, which sometimes there can be a lot of friction in that point. So it tries to streamline all of those things and keep all the different projects that you're working on organized and still be able to keep up that communication with your clients while you're doing these projects.

Shannon Mattern: I literally was in my inbox today and I got a, an email that said proposals about to expire and I'm like, oh yeah, I need to sign that contract and get that payment over to that person. And I knew it was Dubsado because I can tell like from the templates, what I love about that is that you know, that email was likely automated. The person that I'm working with did not have to like think about sending that. They set up all of the things the first time and then it becomes like their little assistant, their little assistant who's keeping on top of who's got proposals open, you know when these emails need to be sent, all of the things so that they can focus on like doing the thing that they went into business for, which is like the actual like creative analytical problem solving piece of their web design business.

Shannon Mattern: So our students absolutely love it because we teach a very specific set of processes inside of the Web Designer Academy to like help them run their business and keep projects on track. And then they have like, I love watching how our super smart students like kind of implement things because then they're like, oh, I took all of Shannon's processes and then I built them out in Dubsado and let me show you guys how I did this. And then everybody's like, Ooh, do you have an affiliate link? Can like can you show me how to do this? And then I didn't even have to like make the recommendation or create the course. They literally like pulled that all together themselves. And then whenever we have new students coming in, they're like, oh hey what do you use for this? And they're like, Dubsado, come to a genius chat. We're gonna talk about it. Like they have formed their little sub-community within our community, which is so, so cool. I know I rave about it like congrats on making an incredible product that just really helps them be more profitable. So

Cameron McBeth: Yeah,

Shannon Mattern: , I'm sure as the director of education, you'd love to hear that people oh

Cameron McBeth: Yeah,

Shannon Mattern: That people are like raving about what you guys do every day

Cameron McBeth: . Yeah, absolutely. And what that also tells me is that people are learning how to use the system and that's something that really makes me happy and kind of gets me out of the bed in the in the morning if you will, where if I can know that people are understanding it and they have that light bulb moment where everything clicks, that is really my motivation to keep creating content, keep creating resources, all of these things to help people learn how to use the platform in the best way possible.

Shannon Mattern: I love it. So tell me, what does a date in the life of the director of education at Dubsado look like?

Cameron McBeth: Yeah, so there's usually a lot of different projects that I'm working on at one time. So there's a lot of, on Monday I might work on this on Tuesday I might work on this. I have my hand in a lot of different departments because we have our product team who they're in charge of actually building the product of Dubsado, so I have to keep in connection with them so that I know how to teach the information to new people. We have our customer care team, which is our chat support team. So a lot of times I have to communicate with them on, hey, if you're talking about this with a customer, this is how you should educate them in the chat. There's also the marketing side of things where I have to create, you know, social media content that people can learn when they're scrolling through their phones. So there's just a lot of different buckets that I'm involved in, if you will. But then there's also just thinking about what content can I make that will help people learn how to use the system efficiently. And then also training new employees as they come in. So there's a lot of different plates that I'm spending at one time, but it makes for a really fun workday cuz you're constantly doing different things and trying to relate information between different people. So it can definitely be be fun.

Shannon Mattern: I think one of the things that I love about your company and I know our students do too, is that you have such a focus on education and I know web designers in particular, like they love to learn, they love to learn and we don't wanna have to like wait on finding answers. Like we wanna be able to like figure stuff out on our own and when we have something that we wanna accomplish, like pretty much watch out, nothing's gonna get in our way. And when there's a company like yours who puts education first and is creating tons of resources to help us problem solve and implement and automate and make things faster, that's always gonna stand out above like a tool that's like, oh hey these are really cool features but I can't really figure out how to solve this problem because there's not a whole lot out there helping me figure this out. And then you just kind of get frustrated and like move on. So , so , we love what you're doing over there to like really focus on education and really empowering your clients to be able to do really creative things with the software. So tell me a little bit about the origin story of Dubsado. Like why was the company started and what problems were were you guys trying to solve?

Cameron McBeth: Yeah, so Jake and Becca are the co-founders of Dubsado. They're a husband and wife and they basically decided to create Dubsado because Becca, she was a photographer and Jake was a web des, well not a web designer but a programmer, a developer. Yeah. And so there was this void that both of them had. He was doing developing projects for people and he was losing, you know, his invoices. He couldn't keep track of anything and Becca also was having trouble keeping everything organized when she was doing all of her photography sessions. So they basically put their heads together, Becca wanted, you know, had a dream of how it would actually look and then basically had Jake design it. And so it really was organic in the way that it was something that they both needed. It wasn't where they just set out to say we're gonna create this thing because we think it'll help other people.

Cameron McBeth: Originally it was to help them and so that was the original intent behind it and then it just kind of grew from there and they realized hey, we have something that other people can use and is going to be beneficial for other people. And so they launched it in February of 2016. So Dubsado is almost seven years old, it'll be seven years old in February of 2023. And I started working at Dubsado in 2017. So it was about a year old when I first started. So it was at its foundational level. There wasn't a lot in the system at that time and it's just been amazing to kind of see the progression of you know, it's first grassroots and then where we're at now. It's been really exciting.

Shannon Mattern: Tell me a little bit more, I'm curious about that progression, like, you know, what was it like what features did it have back in 20 16 20 17 versus like what it is today?

Cameron McBeth: Yeah, so when they first started they couldn't even accept payments. So how you can just, you know, connect with Stripes Square, PayPal and just collect a payment now in the system, we didn't even have that kind of a, a joke that we like to say here is that when we first got started it was more of just a contact list that you could send emails through and that was basically all it did. We had workflows and we had some different things that you could do. You could sign contracts and you could have a lead capture form on your website to collect those new leads. But now there's just so much more that we have in the system. We have native scheduling built in where if you want to jump on a call with someone, you can send out your availability through the system. Our workflows have expanded tremendously. We have a lot of different actions and triggers that you can use in there. Task boards are a really big thing that we have where people can create sort of task board templates on what they need to get done. So there's just a lot of new things that have been implemented and we're definitely wanting to continue to add more.

Shannon Mattern: I love that it is like replacing potentially or consolidating all of the disparate systems that we use in our business that don't talk to each other or if we want them to talk to each other, we have to create connections in all of those things to get all of the disparate systems talking to to each other. And it's like a cohesive, comprehensive online business management tool really that takes all of those pieces and puts them all in one place and it's like I can see everything that's going on with end to end of my entire like book of business, my entire pipeline, like all in one place. That's magical .

Cameron McBeth: Yeah, that's definitely the goal of Dubsado is to get as many tools as we can under one roof. We do know that there's probably going to be something that someone will need down the line that we might not be able to implement right away, but our goal is definitely to listen to our users, understand how they're using the platform and say, okay, how can we implement this in, is there a way that we can keep someone from having to pay a subscription for this particular platform if we can build it in our system? So we're definitely trying to get everything under one roof as much as possible to just make things easier for business owners.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah. and business owners definitely need things made easier for them. , which leads me to my next question, like what are some of your favorite business problems that Dubsado solves? I mean not that business problems should be exciting but .

Cameron McBeth: . Yeah, the big one for me is organization and typically people will talk about the workflows and automating and things like that, which I absolutely love because being able to save yourself time when you're working with a client is obviously a great thing. But to me personally from working with the system over the years, I feel like if you understand how to organize things properly in Dubsado, that is the biggest thing that Dubsado does really well is keeping things organized. And from what I've seen talking with different business owners, obviously, especially in the design field, any type of design, you are constantly building things and working on things that are probably outside of Dubsado. So the last thing that you want to do is come into Dubsado and say where is this project? I can't find this invoice because you have a lot of stuff going on outside of Dubsado to begin with.

Cameron McBeth: And so organization is the biggest thing that I've noticed that has helped a lot of business owners and kind of like what you were alluding to earlier, you don't have to worry about emailing someone and saying, Hey, can you send me this payment because we have payment reminders or this proposal's going to expire And having to remind them, hey the price might change if you don't fill out this form at this time. All of those things as a business owner, you shouldn't need to worry about those things. Those are things that should be automated. And so those are two really big things that I love probably the most about the system is the organization capability and then also being able to automate things that you really shouldn't be sending out manually to every single client.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah, we call those like zombie proposals, in our, in our web designer academy where it's like you've sent out the proposal and then you're like, there's crickets, you get ghosted or like they're not responding to you and yeah it, it just makes that follow up like outta sight outta mind like I told you, here's the process, here's how it's gonna go, here's when this expires, you set it up in Dubsado, it does all the heavy lifting for you to follow through with what you said was going to happen in this process. And you can like take that emotional energy and like focus it somewhere that is gonna not like drain you and stress you out about having to be like running all of this admin stuff and thinking about like what projects and where and who was gonna say yes but maybe I have someone else that wanted to start then and what's going on.

Shannon Mattern: And like that kind of stuff. Paralyzes web designer like our students to be like I don't know if I have space to go market and get a new client cuz I have all this stuff open here. And then it prevents them from like going and taking action to continue like filling their pipeline. And so just even that organization affects your business in so many other ways than just I feel disorganized now I feel organized. It has such a wider impact on whether you're marketing or you know, booking new projects. So if someone's listening and they're like, oh yeah I have a ton of those you might wanna , you might wanna check out a system to to help take care of those things for you. So you shared some of your favorite features. What are some of your favorite like customer stories and of how your customers are using the tool?

Cameron McBeth: Yeah, I think that there are kind of two different buckets of people that when I consider success stories. The first one would be originally when I first got hired at Dubsado I was doing one-on-one calls with a lot of our users. So I got a lot of instant gratification on those calls where I spoke with someone, there's this one thing that they were missing that they needed to get figured out. And so they would book a call with me, I would share with them, hey this is how you can do that. And kind of like what I was saying earlier, there's that light bulb moment of oh my gosh this has completely changed the way I'm gonna do business. And so there are a lot of different success stories in that realm where there's just this one thing that they needed to get figured out and once they did their business takes off, things click for them and then they just get rolling.

Cameron McBeth: And I'm sure probably a lot of people in your academy are kind of the same way. They probably have figured out this one thing that revolutionized the way that they were doing it. And so there's a lot of success stories from that perspective. The other bucket of people that I've seen a lot, and this is more of what we get in our chat a lot of times cuz people will write in with just really great things that are going on and there's a lot of people who originally started off probably doing like a nine to five job. They were not really enjoying what they were doing and they were just doing design on the side or photography on the side or whatever their passions were. And once they figured out the system and they understood it and they started getting clients and they started getting traction with their business, they were, were able to move away from that nine to five.

Cameron McBeth: And this was especially really big during the pandemic. We had a huge surge of people who said, I'm getting outta all of this nine to five stuff. I don't wanna do the corporate career stuff anymore, I wanna start my own business. And so really around 2020 we saw a huge surge of people who were saying, I'm doing this full-time now and I'm loving it. And so we got a lot of success stories, especially around that realm of moving into what their dreams are, what they're passionate about, and now they're doing it on a full-time basis and absolutely loving it.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah. Isn't it cool to like be a part of that story and like a part of the thing that like supports them to like have their dream And it all ties back to like, oh invoicing was really annoying back then and now it's really turned into like we're helping people like create the lives and businesses that they want and it's just, I can imagine that that that makes you, makes you love what you do

Cameron McBeth: . It really does. And because the big thing, and I always tell this to people who are hiring that are new, I always say that what we're doing is we're really changing people's lives when you think about it. Because you know, you could be working for a company where your job is helping people fix their, I don't know, big screen TVs or something where you don't really feel like it's that rewarding, like you're just helping people fix, you know, something that doesn't really matter. But we could have someone who reaches out to us and say, Hey, I'm with a client right now, they're about to sign off on a $10,000 project and this isn't working, can you help me? That's a life-changing thing for them where if they might book this project, it could completely change the scope of how their life works. And so that's one thing that is very rewarding about working here is that every day we come in and we realize that what we're doing, whether it's marketing, whether it is the product side of things or what I'm doing or developing that what we're doing is giving people the opportunity to change their lives and so it doesn't really feel as much of work or this isn't really fun and what we're doing doesn't make an impact.

Cameron McBeth: We feel that impact every day with our users, which is extremely rewarding.

Shannon Mattern: Amazing. So say someone is like, I need this end-to-end solution to help me get organized and say on top of things and automate and just make my business easier so I can like go about the business of doing the thing. What can people expect when they start a relationship with you guys?

Cameron McBeth: Yeah, so that's a phenomenal question. So the first thing that they can expect is when they get into the system, they're probably going to be looking for resources, which is the, the main thing obviously that I'm involved in is providing those resources and then I'll, you know, I'll give a quick plug, but we do have a completely free online course that you can take that walks you from A to Z through the entire system and teaches you how to set it up. So for people who are really interested in learning and trying to figure out all the nooks and crannies and all of the cool, you know, streamlining capabilities that you can do with Dubsado, we do have a ton of resources. We have webinars that you can watch. Our chat support team to me is kind of the backbone of Dubsado because obviously people are learning how to use the system, they have questions and our chat support team is always there available, ready to help you out, hold your hand, walk with you through exactly what it is that you need to do to get things set up.

Cameron McBeth: And so even though Dubsado is a really big platform, there is a lot in there. Another thing that I would say is really important is to just start with the basics. So if you are newer to business and you say I just need to get my contract set up first, let's just work on that, get the contract set up, then maybe move on to a lead form or something where you know you want to put a contact form on your website, it can be overwhelming because you might see a lot of inspirational things that people are posting about. I have all of these things set up and there's kind of that comparison thing that starts to set in where you say, I wish I had my system set up like so and so. So I think the big thing is start small, start with what you know you need in there.

Cameron McBeth: Reach out to us for support, we're here to help you look at all of our resources. That's kind of my job is to make sure that people who know or who are coming into the system who need to know how to use it, they can come in and feel comfortable, feel like they have people there to support them because being a business owner can be super lonely, especially if you're just a solopreneur working by yourself. Not only are you trying to learn how to run your business, but you're also learning this software that is completely foreign to you as well. So we wanna take at least the ease out of that side of it. So we have a lot of different resources available.

Shannon Mattern: That's amazing and, and I could not agree with you more, like take it one step at a time, and this is like what we talk to our web designer academy students about. It's like okay you're, we're teaching you new processes, we're teaching you different things and we're like, hey, how about you build it as you go, as you're booking clients and as you're getting paid to set these pieces up step by step by step instead of, you know, kind of going the route of like, oh in order to be, see this is what a lot of people think. Like in order to be seen as a legit professional business owner, I must today have the end-to-end process all set up working perfectly before I can go get my next client. And I am like absolute, let's flip that around. Let's go get your next client and put your contract in up, tell 'em you'll get the contract to 'em in a couple of days.

Shannon Mattern: Spend some time, get your contract set up, send that over, set up the next piece, send that over and like get paid to build it out with your next client instead of delaying your next client while you take on this project that is actually better served if you have real use cases and real life scenarios to build out each piece. Mm-Hmm than doing it in like, oh I'm gonna compare my business to so-and-so's business and build exactly what they have, overwhelm myself and then start to question everything or whatever, whatever I see our students do, we're always like, let's help you take it back. Like let's bring it back a notch, it's good you got this and then they're like, okay cool, I'm just gonna take this one step at a time. And with everything else they have going on in their business, like they can take that one step at a time too. So I love that advice and I love that approach and I love that you that you guys have people there to support every step of the way. So what's next for Dubsado? Like what's on the product roadmap for the future?

Cameron McBeth: Yeah, so there's a lot of great things happening. The big push that we're trying to work on right now is increasing our multi-user capability. That's kind of a big focus that we have. Originally when Dubsado first got started, we were very tailored towards only solopreneurs. Yeah, so you're working by yourself. The system was fantastic and it still is for solopreneurs, that's who we're mainly geared towards. But we also realize that as Dubsado has grown over the last seven years, that the people who originally started with us, their businesses are growing as well and they're hiring assistance to do work for them or they're bringing on other people onto their teams and they're forming kind of these 2, 3, 4 person teams. And so we realized that since they're growing we also have to grow as well with being able to facilitate all of those people. And so that's kind of a big focus that we're working on, especially in 2023, is providing more of a way where small teams are able to use the system effectively. And so that's kind of the, the next big push that we're working on.

Shannon Mattern: That's super, super exciting. This last question, I didn't put it in our list of questions that we collaborated on before this before this episode, but I ask this to everybody who comes on the show and that is like what belief about yourself did you have to change to get where you are today? And that could be personal to you or could be like Dubsado's mission in general or something, however you feel comfortable answering that question.

Cameron McBeth: Yeah, that is such a good question. So I guess what I can do is, is start here but, and I know this is actually one of the questions that kind of ties into the origin story, but when I first started working at Dubsado, or I guess prior to that I was a personal trainer at a at Crunch Fitness here in California. And so basically how I got started working at Dubsado is I was doing one-on-one fitness training with clients and Jake and Becca, I started training them at Crunch. And so I was actually their fitness personal trainer and they basically said we need someone to be able to teach people how to use Dubsado. You do one-on-one training for fitness, we can probably parlay that into you being able to teach people the system. And so for me, I said I don't know anything about small business, I know nothing about invoicing and contracts and sending out quote proposals and all of those things, but hey, I'll give it a shot and here I am today.

Cameron McBeth: But the main takeaway from that is, and something that I really had to change mentally is working with a lot of small business owners, I sometimes fall into that space where I feel like I'm just an impersonator and I have that, you know, just that syndrome of always feeling like I have never run a business before, so who am I to be able to tell people this is how you should set up your business. And it took me, and I'm still working on it today, but I feel like being able to talk with enough business owners that kind of gave me enough experience where I felt like I got rid of that imposter syndrome where I felt like, you know what I can tell people, hey, this is how you should set this up in your business. And I feel like I've gained enough business experience by talking with people that I no longer, well I wouldn't say no longer, but I am still trying to fight that urge of saying, well Cameron, you've never run a business before, so who are you to say this is what you should do?

Cameron McBeth: And so I feel like it's kind of a constant thing that I'm working on, but being the director of education, I also realize that people are looking to me for advice, looking to me for, you know, help on how they should set up their business or how they should go through things. So seeing that people are asking me for help on things that has helped reaffirm some of those doubts that I had. But that's a big thing for me was even though I don't come from the small business business world, I don't have a degree in small business, I've never run one on my own. I have to constantly tell myself, no, but you have the experience of talking with people, you have good advice so don't shy away from it.

Shannon Mattern: Oh my gosh, that is so powerful. Like I was just kind of getting chills while you were saying that because that is something that I personally went through when I was starting my business. It's like, well you know how to build a website cause you had to do it at your day job, like you just had to figure it out, but you've never actually done it for another business. Who do you think you are to say that you could build this for another business? And our students go through it all the time. It'll be like, I have a project inquiry and they want me to build this thing and I've never built this before. Like who am I to do that? Who am I to say that I even could attempt it? And it's something that like we, I don't know if everybody goes through it, but like everybody I've talked to has gone through it like one way or another.

Shannon Mattern: So it's very like refreshing and validating to hear you say that as well. And I think that the thing that people want from us is to be the one leading the way to help them figure it out. Not to have to already know it or have already done it and to like collaborate with them and guide them and ask them the right questions and and pull in our peers and other experts to give them advice and do research and all of the things. Because if we both have the goal to like help them succeed, then it can only turn out good and I don't already have to know it. And I think that that's one of the the big mindset shifts I had to make in my business. It's the one we help our web designer academy students make, like help them choose that mindset over and over and over again, like what you said. So thank you for sharing that, I really appreciate that and I know our listeners will, will too. So where can everyone go to learn more about Dubsado, more about the online course that they can take and just where can they go to get started?

Cameron McBeth: Yeah, absolutely. So two things with that. The first is if you just go to https://dubsado.com, so D U B sa d o.com, then you can sign up for our free trial. And the thing that I absolutely love about how we structure our free trial is that it's not time based, it's client based. And that really helps business owners out because any, anytime that you sign up for like a free 14 day trial or 30 day trial, life happens, things get in the way, you don't get around to getting things put in there and then you're kind of outta that trial phase. But with Dubsado we have a three client free trial where once you need to add more than three clients. So when you're gonna add in that fourth client, that's when you would actually need to sign up for a subscription. So you can literally have Dubsado for an entire year and spend that time just getting things set up in the system and take as much time as you need and then whenever you're ready you can go ahead and sign up for a paid subscription.

Cameron McBeth: So I would definitely say sign up for a free trial, give it a try, reach out to our customer support, look at our resources and just get to know the system. And then when it comes to the education course, that's actually https://education.dubsado.com. So that's a completely separate site that we have that has all of our webinars, the online course, all of the resources, all of those things. So it's just https://education.dubsado.com. And that's kind of my domain where I'm constantly trying to get things updated and put things in there where people can learn this system. So feel free to check that out. We also have a YouTube channel as well. If you just look at dto crm and if you just put that in YouTube, we have a YouTube channel that has tons of information. And I guess I'll also mention this as well, we do have different webinars from different industries. So I know that this is particular for web designers, but we do have some different resources on there that other web designers who are using dto, they've actually put different webinars and things on our YouTube channel. So if you're looking for more industry specific things, definitely check out our YouTube channel and there's some good resources there as well.

Shannon Mattern: Amazing. I'm gonna link up all of that stuff in the show notes and send that out to our listeners so you guys can go check it out. Get started. I love that. Three client free trial, that's amazing. And it was just really a pleasure to talk to you and get to know about you more and about the company more. So thank you so much for being here.

Cameron McBeth: Yeah, Shannon, thank you so much for having me. This is an awesome time talking about Dubsado and talking about work and talking about loving the things that you do and passion and all of that. So I had a great time. Thank you.

Shannon Mattern: That's it for this week's episode and we've linked up all of the resources we talked about today in the show notes. So you can go to https://webdesigneracademy.com/podcast to get your hands on those. And we'll be back next week with another episode designed to help you uplevel the business side of your web design business. So be sure to subscribe to the show wherever you're listening. And if you like today's episode, we'll be so grateful if you would share it with all your web designer friends. And if you're feeling extra generous, we'd love for you to leave us a writing in review so we can get in front of even more web designers and help them transform their businesses and their lives. So simply scroll up on this episode in your podcast player and tap that, leave a review link or go to https://webdesigneracademy.Com/Review and it'll take you to the right spot. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you right here next week. Bye.

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