#171 – From Corporate Burnout To Web Design Business Success with Amber Jones

Shannon Mattern (00:01.442)

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Profitable Web Designer Podcast. And today I am joined by Amber Jones of Jones Copywriting and Design. Amber, welcome to the show.

Amber Jones (00:12.195)

Thank you so much for having me, Shannon. I'm honored to be here.

Shannon Mattern (00:15.49)

Well, Amber is one of our Web Designer Academy students and we'll talk more about her experience and some of the big shifts she's made since joining. But before we get to that part of the story, I'd love to get in the way back machine and have you take me back to the beginning of your web design business journey. So tell me more about how you got started.

Amber Jones (00:39.887)

Yeah, so I launched the business in February of 2022, but it was not a plan. But at the same time, it was a long time coming. And I'll explain why. I spent 20 years in the corporate world as a marketer. And I should have left the corporate world about five years before I did, because their values, my values and their values just did not align.

But I think everything happens for a reason, looking back on it. But I actually quit a job without having another one lined up. It was that stressful. I was so burnt out. I didn't realize how burnt out I was until three weeks later, when I started looking at LinkedIn for jobs. I would get to that portion of the job description where it said, will be responsible for, and then it would list out all the responsibilities. And there was something in my head that just went, ping, nope, you're not going to tell me.

ever again what I'm going to be doing or how I'm going to be doing it or how much money I'm going to be making. looking back on it, I know what was happening, but I had no idea in the moment. It was that messy middle where I'm like, okay, well, this is new. This isn't good. What do I do now? And so I actually took a year off after the corporate world. That was also not planned. And initially I thought,

I was going to be a copywriter. I did a certification through the University of Toronto. It took me six months to do that. And then I had a friend who ended up being my very first website design client. She's an attorney, she's still a friend. And she was going off on her own and we were talking one day and she goes, I need a website and I don't have time to find someone good to do it. And I said, well, I can do that.

I built websites in the corporate world, many using WordPress. And so I just figured it out. And the rest is history, as they say. But obviously, there's been a lot of changes in my business since that first time. And I've learned a lot. But yes, I've pulled a lot from the corporate world into my current business. was in it for 20 years. The last 10 years of that, I was in what's called sales enablement.

Amber Jones (03:02.595)

So I worked very closely with sales teams to help them get deals across the finish line. And so I pulled a lot of that into my business. But I was so resistant to everything else regarding the corporate world. And I hope we can talk about that later too, because just recently I have become more open to pulling in more of the corporate me into how I run my business.

Shannon Mattern (03:31.294)

When you said I would look at these LinkedIn job descriptions and look at your responsibilities and your reaction was like, absolutely not. You're never going to tell me again what I'm doing, what I'm not doing, how much I'm worth. Like that gave me chills when you said that. And I know that it was coming from the time from a place of like burnout.

Amber Jones (03:46.647)

Yeah.

Amber Jones (03:56.088)

and

Shannon Mattern (03:56.424)

Now it sounds like it's like very empowering to you to have like had that version of you in there telling you no more. This is it. Like you're probably you're made for more than this. This is like not this is not how it's going to be for your future. Did it feel empowering at the time?

Amber Jones (04:21.295)

No, not at all. And it was confusing because I'm used to my brain working the way that I want it to. with burnout, I'd heard about burnout. We've all heard that word, right? And I just figured, oh, well, know, burnout, take a few weeks off, rest, don't do anything, just, know. But that's not the kind of burnout that I was experiencing. It took me six months to recover from it. And...

Shannon Mattern (04:32.289)

Mm-hmm.

Amber Jones (04:47.149)

When I tell you the most productive thing I did in that first six months after leaving the corporate world was doing the laundry once per week, that was it. Like I don't have kids, I'm not married, so I don't have those responsibilities, but I could not function. And it was actually kind of scary. And the weird thing is, is that when I get into something, I want to understand why it's happening.

When I went to Amazon and was looking for books, blogs, articles, anything about actual true burnout, I really didn't find a lot. And that was surprising to me because I figured with everyone who's been in the corporate world for any number of years, everyone experiences that at some point, but you just kind of push it down and you just keep going. Well, I got to the point where I pushed it down so...

far and for so long. I figured out later that it took years. was that burnout started years ago, not months prior to me leaving. So when I say it happened the way it was supposed to happen, looking back on it, yes, I understand that logically, but oh my gosh, when I was going through it, I thought there was something wrong with me. I thought, okay, I'm not cut out to be in the corporate world, even though I was doing very well. It was very confusing.

Shannon Mattern (06:06.302)

And so you learn copywriting.

Amber Jones (06:12.921)

and

Shannon Mattern (06:14.591)

And then you said, I hope we get to talk about how I'm bringing myself back into the corporate world. Did you have a moment where you're like, I need to get so far away from everything that I learned that I'm just completely fresh start and like almost as if none of that had ever happened and none of those skills meant anything or whatever. Tell me more about that.

Amber Jones (06:38.337)

Yeah, and that has been a recent realization for me just in the last week. It's funny how our brains work because it was all happening back then, right? But it took this long three years later for me to actually understand what my brain was trying to tell me. And so everything I learned in the corporate world as far as because I did product marketing, I did account based marketing, which is hyper personalized content for very large accounts.

I was in strategic marketing for the last 10 years. I was working with very high performing sales teams. So I was learning sales psychology and like why people buy. And I pulled all of that into my business right away. I pour all of that into every single one of my clients websites. But when it comes to running my own business, I resisted how things are done in the corporate world for a very long time.

What I've recently realized is that the way that the corporate world does things, it works. It does work. But I just had to adapt it for the way that I want to run my own business. after I joined the Academy, the Website Designer Academy, I joined in May. So it's only been five months and there's been huge shifts in my business since then. So thank you for building that program. But one thing I realized was the outreach.

that you teach, the relationship marketing, and the systematized outreach that you teach in that program, that was a total game changer for my business. And I don't know why it took me this long to incorporate it. One thing that was a really big challenge when I first started my business was I have no network. mean, yeah, I had a hard time finding clients, but I also didn't have any network. mean, all my contacts were in the corporate world.

Shannon Mattern (08:23.469)

Yeah.

Amber Jones (08:31.971)

And so I started going to a lot of in-person networking events here in my county, which I'm lucky. The county that I live in is the sixth fastest growing county in the nation. It's just west of the Dallas for worth area. So a lot of people moving here, a lot of businesses moving here. So I've got that going for me, but it took, I've built that network over the past two years and

then when I joined your program, I realized I need to start leveraging that network. And ever since I started doing that, I'm hooked up for the rest of the year. I mean, that didn't happen last year. So everything that I was resisting, that sales outreach, that those salespeople that I worked very closely with, this is the same outreach, tracking leads, tracking deals, tracking your income, everything like that, everything that they were tracking, I'm now tracking in my own business.

But think I was very resistant to it for a very long time because it was so corporate to me. But it's not the way that you teach it, if that makes sense.

Shannon Mattern (09:36.826)

Well, yeah, thank you for saying that. you know, what I'm here, what I heard was that you, you knew you had to expand your network before you ever came to work with us. So you're like, I don't know anybody. I want to be as far away from corporate as possible. That was me. That was me too, when I left my day job. So

Amber Jones (10:00.847)

you

Shannon Mattern (10:03.341)

Just to back up, when we talk about how to do outreach, we start with low-hanging fruit, right? We start with, who do you know? And when I think about my day job, I'm like, the people that I spent the past 10 years with, day in, day out, every day, they're not going on my list because that is not an option. And that was how that was for me because I'm like,

Amber Jones (10:22.063)

right?

Shannon Mattern (10:29.831)

I want to also get so far away from this situation that I don't want them to know what I'm doing. don't like, like none of that. Like I don't even want, it wasn't a, it just needed to have a, have a clean break. Even though I was like, I was side hustling and building this business on the side, which added another layer of, of wanting to kind of keep the.

What do they call it? Like the Chinese wall or whatever between what I was doing and another corporate term, right? between what I was doing and, and doing that. so what I heard you say is that you had very intentionally started to build your network and, meet new people, but you were missing the part where you were like being proactive in.

Amber Jones (11:00.931)

Yes.

Amber Jones (11:04.75)

Yep.

Shannon Mattern (11:27.461)

nurturing those relationships and asking people if they wanted to take the next step because that felt like the corporate sales department and probably, and I'm curious, did it feel just like quotas and numbers and money and all the gross impersonal, like I'm just trying to make a quota and get my commission versus like what you.

really want to do which is like, serve and support and help people grow and all of those types of things.

Amber Jones (12:03.725)

Yeah, I think it was as simple as I just recently started using a CRM in my business. I'm using HubSpot, the free version. you know, HubSpot, I've known HubSpot for the two decades they've been around. I was using them in the corporate world. So I think it was also things as silly as using the same tools that we used. I'm not going to use Salesforce or anything like that, but you know, using the same

Shannon Mattern (12:10.039)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (12:26.697)

Right.

Amber Jones (12:29.397)

structure and the same tools that the corporate world used and applying it to my business. That was what I was resistant to. Even though logically it makes sense to do that, at least to a certain extent, do it the way that I want to do it, right? Like there's no quotas. I mean, I'm my own boss. know, if I don't, you know, if I don't meet a quota, I'm not going too hard on myself, but I am a type A personality and I tend to do things by the letter and I'm a perfectionist.

Shannon Mattern (12:36.801)

Yeah.

Amber Jones (12:59.087)

And I want to figure things out before I do them. But one of the things that I've learned about running your own business is you just got to do it and you've got to launch the thing, whatever it is, whatever, if it's an offer, if it's your own website. I can't tell you how long I spent writing and designing my own website in that first year. I changed, it looks great now. And like, if you looked at it,

you think, yeah, she's not too worried about her messaging or anything. Well, that's three years, you know, that's now. mean, when I was developing my own website, I was thinking it has to be perfect because this is what I'm selling. Like I'm selling websites. But the other thing, the mentality of the corporate world, and I know you know, I know you know this, is they come from a mentality of scarcity. Like there's only so many.

Shannon Mattern (13:52.087)

Mm-hmm.

Amber Jones (13:53.52)

promotions, there's only so many raises and usually their cost of living raises if you even get one. So I think people in the corporate world, they're kind of in survival mode, you know, and in a lot of ways, yeah, we are too running our own business. But I think because of that dynamic in that world, people tend to stab each other in the back, they tend to be all self-interest, at least that was my experience.

Shannon Mattern (14:00.302)

you

Amber Jones (14:22.095)

and I wanted none of that. And when I started building my network here in this county, the city that I live in, I mean, it's growing. It's definitely not a small town, but it still has that small town feel to it. I'm an introvert, so when I'm not a shy introvert, but I am an introvert, so the thought of going to networking events, the way that I was picturing it was how it would happen in the corporate world, because that was my experience.

It's not like that at all. And in fact, if you had told me two years ago that I would actually love going to networking events and look forward to them, I would have laughed because the introvert in me would have, no way, there's no way. I mean, you know, but I actually do because it's actual genuine human connection and you're, I feel like now I feel like I'm a part, a very seen and an important part of.

a very tight knit small business community in the area that I'm in. And I've never experienced that. And actually that actually gives me chills a little bit because it's so different than what I ever experienced in the corporate world. So I'm glad I experienced everything that I did in the corporate world because I think it pushed me out of it. Like it got so painful for me that I finally had to do something about it. But

So don't regret anything, but I kind of wish I'd left like five years early.

Shannon Mattern (15:50.914)

feel the same way. think back on all of the things I learned from all of the experiences and with as much distance as I have now, I'm like, so much of that has really helped me lay groundwork for a lot of the things that I that I do to like run my business. And I can totally see how even just logging in the in the HubSpot with with the level of severity of the burnout that you

Amber Jones (16:08.015)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (16:20.847)

describe how that could just be a bridge too far to even log in to HubSpot and use that as, your system. But I'm curious, like, if, you are surprised that the version, if the version of you two years ago would be surprised that the version of you today like has like, is a connected, thriving part of a community. What

compelled you to go to the first one in the first place. Yeah.

Amber Jones (16:51.961)

I to, I had to go. had to, and when I describe, had, like my family also lives here, my parents live here, and they live in another part of town, of course. I knew them, and then my brother lives north of Houston, and so it's, my family is here, but I didn't have very many friends in this area. And I actually, the first thing that I did, and this was a game changer for me too.

Shannon Mattern (17:10.551)

Yeah.

Amber Jones (17:21.847)

I joined BNI, the Business Networking International. And highly recommend that to anyone who's starting out with no network and you want to quickly build your network. This is not a promotion for BNI, but it works if you do it. And I met a lot of, we had 35 people in our chapter. And so you meet a lot of people very quickly who are also on the same path that you're on. They're trying to grow their business and

Shannon Mattern (17:24.513)

Mm-hmm.

Amber Jones (17:48.748)

You get to stand up and talk about your business. have about 45 seconds. So you get really, really good at giving your pitch. So I did that first. And then I joined both chambers of commerce. There's two in my area. And I started going to networking events there. And over time, I learned that I don't want to go to every single networking event. I don't have time for that or the desire to. And there are

Shannon Mattern (18:00.671)

Mm.

Amber Jones (18:16.181)

networking events that are recurring that I do try to prioritize because I know I'm going to see some of the same people. You start seeing the same people at these networking events and then some of them become friends. And so it becomes easier as you go. The very first one I went to was very nerve wracking. And there are still times when I will walk into a networking event that I've never been to before and I'll have some awkward moments talking to people, but usually because they're also introverts and

It's just that awkward introvert conversation. But it happens in an instant. It's over with, and then you move on. And the thing that I have always pulled from it is it's just an hour. It's one hour. I can do this. It's like, it's not going to kill me. What's the worst that's going to happen? I forget what I'm saying in front of one person or maybe two people.

Everybody there is nervous, you know, and some people just hide it better than others. But I guarantee you, if you asked everybody and they answered it honestly, they would be like, yes, it's nerve wracking, but I have to do it for my business. And you get better at it as you go on.

Shannon Mattern (19:24.205)

And it becomes worth it, like as opposed to the alternative, which for you, you were like, that's not an alternative. So you're like, I had to, you like at your core knew that that was, that was like how you were going to go from no network.

to building a very intentional one. So what led you, how did you even find us? What led you to the Web Designer Academy?

Amber Jones (19:55.696)

That's a good question. I was thinking about this. So back in, it must have been April, you were speaking at, was it the WP Summit? Is that the one that happens in, it's across the pond, I know.

Shannon Mattern (20:10.292)

There are several, there's the Page Builder Summit, there's the Women of Web Summit, there's, yeah, I don't know, one of them, yeah.

Amber Jones (20:16.495)

It's...

It was one of those, I know you speak out a lot of them, but the, forget how I even came across that summit. Cause I don't actually build in WordPress. I build in Wix and Squarespace mainly. And WordPress is actually the only platform I don't build in. Um, but I attended the summit and a lot of the sessions weren't applicable to me because they were WordPress focused, but there was a session that caught my eye and it was called paid discovery. And.

Shannon Mattern (20:32.192)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (20:47.724)

Mmm.

Amber Jones (20:49.071)

I was like, what is that? And because I had just come off of an experiment that I ran in my business back in, started in, I guess around the same time that I attended that summit. I ran an experiment in my business to see how many projects I could take on at one time. Four is too many, I learned. And three of those were total revamps. And I should go back, I do everything on a website. So design.

conversion copywriting and SEO and strategy. So I do every and all the technical stuff. So I do everything from beginning to end. I don't farm anything out and the... Where was I going with that? so three of those projects were complete revamps and one of those was an 18 page website. I would say that the experiment was not a failure because I still learned what I don't want to do ever again. But that summit came along at the perfect time.

because I had just gone through that experiment and it was so painful. I was having to work until 9 p.m., 10 p.m. every night, work weekends. I was doing nothing but working. I wasn't going to networking events. I wasn't seeing my friends. It started affecting relationships. mean, you we've all been there. Coming out of the end of that experiment was when I attended that summit. And I think I listened to your presentation and...

The reason I bring up that experiment in relation to this is because I think I had to go through that pain of going through that experiment to make a big change. It wasn't even about the investment into the program. I could see the value right away. I can't do not. When I say I feel like the universe aligned when you came in, your program came into my business at the exact right time that I needed it. I don't know if that's the universe or you just have really good marketing.

But it's whatever way, whatever it was, it was exactly what I needed to shift things in my business and stop trying to do everything at once and try to be perfect all the time and get back to that relationship marketing. I had built a network. I just wasn't leveraging it. So that's, that's how I found you guys. And then I think I was, I was just coming, I was so burnt out from

Amber Jones (23:12.387)

had a tiny bit of burnout from that experiment. And I remember there was a date that I had to decide whether or not I was going to join the Academy. And I was like, I'm not going to have time for this. I'm not going to have time to really devote to learning the lessons and like attending the calls and everything. And I thought, you know what, just do it. Just take the plunge, do it. And the thing that also helped me decide was you have that 30 day.

Shannon Mattern (23:41.228)

Yep.

Amber Jones (23:41.402)

Can you even change your mind within 30 days? And I'm like, you know what, that takes some of the risk off of me. But I was sold within the first week. I knew I've never come across a community of women like that before. And so it's well worth it to me. But yeah, that's how I found you.

Shannon Mattern (23:54.997)

Wow.

Shannon Mattern (23:59.469)

So I love that you said, don't know if you have really good marketing or it's the universe. I think it's gotta be a mix of magic and marketing. It has to be. I mean, I put a lot of heart and soul into my marketing and I'm glad that it resonates with the right people. So that is very intentional. But there has to be an element of magic involved in this because...

Yeah, I don't know how else it like brings the best people in and like you said, you're like, I have never been a part of a community of women like this. I haven't either. And you know, I'm like, I'm honored and in awe every day of the women, the stories, the challenges that they experienced the vulnerability.

the effort that they put in, the drive, the desire to overcome, the things that they create as a result. I am just like, I say this all the time. I open up my laptop every single day and I'm like, how is this my life? How is this my job? Like, I feel like one of the luckiest people in the world, especially,

Amber Jones (25:11.661)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (25:18.604)

coming from a corporate situation like you experience where you have the exact opposite feeling where you're like, how is this my life? And it's not, yeah. And so I love that the magic and the marketing brought you to us. I think I did pay discovery mastery at the page builder summit. And I think that that one, that's a WordPress.

Amber Jones (25:28.577)

Exactly.

Amber Jones (25:47.139)

Yes.

Shannon Mattern (25:47.979)

based summit, that must have been it. So you did this experiment where you're like, how many websites can I do all at once? And then you see paid discovery and that intrigues you. You get into the program. What were some of the biggest mindset shifts that happened for you right off the bat where you were like, I didn't.

know I was thinking this way before and now and you started thinking in a new way.

Amber Jones (26:26.287)

think it goes back to the corporate thing. I had to unlearn a lot after leaving the corporate world and it just happened to take three years. It's probably gonna take me even longer to keep unlearning it. But I think that scarcity mindset that I mentioned before, I didn't realize how ingrained that was in me for so long. And I think it's because of the way I just, you everyone who's been in the corporate world knows there's...

that brass ring and like everybody's trying to go after the same brass ring. So obviously there's going to be unhealthy competition. And one thing that I've noticed being a part of this business, the small business community, there is no scarcity mindset. And so I started seeing how we all help each other, you know, and I actually met yesterday with someone who is going to probably be a good referral partner for me.

And I have other website designers in my referral network. mean, some of them just do WordPress. Obviously I've got the website, you know, the web designer academy network too. And, but I think that scarcity mindset, I think that stayed with me for far longer than I realized. And now I think I mentioned it on a call. I just assume now that everyone wants to help me and

Shannon Mattern (27:50.54)

you

Amber Jones (27:51.532)

If you, again, if you had told me three years ago that I would be saying that when it comes to business, I would have left because I'm like, I'm still coming from that corporate mentality. And now I say that because I've seen it. I've seen it in action. And I think I'm a little different than some of your students because of my sales background. I mean, I never did sales, but I'm so closely tied to it that

I understand that sales is just helping people solve a problem. I do not see outreach or even like cold email outreach as bothering people. I don't see it as annoying people. If you send too many emails, obviously, yes, you're going to annoy people. But I see it as a little differently than maybe some other people do. I think that helped me. I didn't have to overcome that.

when I started doing the outreach which was incredibly helpful. But I do think that scarcity mindset is always kind of with me a little bit and it's a process. You just have to trust that, trust but be wary of people is what I say. It's like, trust people to do the right thing, to help you out. Just try it. Like you say, just ask and if they don't respond to you, okay, but you have that other...

Concept that I also love in the academy is that passionate detachment. Be passionate about everything that you do, but detach from the outcome of it. And I think that along with, I've been listening to a lot of YouTube videos about stoicism lately and the stoics, that's kind of how they saw things. You do not have any control over how other people react, what they say, do or think. Let them do.

Shannon Mattern (29:32.588)

Mm.

Amber Jones (29:44.334)

It's kind like the left them theory too, but it's, know, and then when you stop worrying about that, it opens up way more possibilities for you. And it also forces you to think about the positive in your life, which as we all know, it tends to accelerate. The positive accelerates and the negative just, you you'll end up in a spiral if you let that, if you just focus on the negative. But yeah, that scarcity mindset thing is a killer if you let it.

Shannon Mattern (30:13.148)

That quote that you said, it was in one of our marketing momentum workshops one day, I think you came to do marketing. We do a 90 minute co-work coaching and co-working session for our marketing momentum people every month. And you were like,

Amber Jones (30:19.311)

Hmm.

Shannon Mattern (30:29.256)

I just am going to assume that people want to help me. just assume that people want to help me. And I wrote it down and Amber, I've said that to so many people since you have said that I'm like, Amber, one of our students, Amber is just good. Like, and, that is, that is a choice. That is an absolute decision that anybody can make to just assume that people want to help them. And when you come at it from that way, everything changes. And, and I think about.

Amber Jones (30:35.544)

Thank

Shannon Mattern (30:58.656)

what you said about the scarcity mindset kind of being the place that you're, that you are like the biggest, that biggest shift that you've had and that you're like, aware of it. And I'm, I'm curious. I'm like, I'm so curious if that was what drove the experiment of how many projects can I do all at one time? Because what I see is people like saying yes to every opportunity right now. Cause they don't want to like,

let it go. So, yeah, before coming to work with us, I could see where you'd be like, huh, I'm curious. How much can I say yes to all at one time without burning myself out?

Amber Jones (31:42.348)

Yes, and I learned, I mean, that experiment lasted two months. I did four projects in two months and that's way too much. I don't, yeah, it was good money, but I don't want to earn money like that. Exactly, and I actually worked harder during that two months than I ever did in the corporate world. And it's just not worth it.

Shannon Mattern (31:47.659)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (31:51.37)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (31:57.256)

At what cost?

Shannon Mattern (32:03.788)

Yeah.

Amber Jones (32:07.307)

And yes, I have to pay bills. I have to keep my eye on my revenue and my overhead and everything. But I also want to love what I do. when you go two months of not being able to even take phone calls from people that you want to talk to or not being able to visit family, because I had to carve out time to even go to the grocery store. mean, it was that crazy. never again. But I learned.

I learned so much during that experiment and more about how I don't want to do things in my business. For instance, I learned that I do not ever want to design another website in Google Sites ever again. You would think that very simple website builders like that would be easy to design in. No, they're not. It's actually the opposite. If you design a website the right way, they actually make it harder to design websites.

Yeah, so things as specific as that I learned and then setting boundaries with clients. That was another big thing that I think again, you have to go through the pain of not setting the boundaries one part of it, right? Holding it is the hard part. When they start to react to it or they get upset or and you start to feel bad about it, holding that boundary is the, that's the true test.

Shannon Mattern (33:22.38)

Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Amber Jones (33:35.34)

I had to, I again, I think I had to go through that pain in order to just finally be done with, I'm no longer bending over backwards for clients. I offer a premium service that they can't get elsewhere. They would have to hire three different people to get me. I'm not even charging, I'm still not charging what I feel like, you know, what I'm worth, but I will get there. I know I will get there. It's just a matter of finding those clients that can pay that.

Shannon Mattern (34:05.627)

Mm-hmm. I love how you are just so sure of your value and you're so sure that, you know, that's the thing that I see is like, that's a done deal when you're like, I know that I can charge more. And the only gap is,

the people I know right now connecting me to those people and making those offers. And when you say it like that, it's a done deal. And so I'm so curious, because we've talked so much about like your corporate experience and how we're lucky if we get the cost of living raise every year and there's only so much of the pie to go around and it's gonna be divvied up between.

all the employees and budget cuts and like all of this stuff. And we're just taught that like, this is the only amount that there is. And if you want to keep getting your piece, you better bend over backwards and be the best in all of this stuff. So then you go out on your own and you start working for yourself. How did your, like, how has your pricing mindset evolved from like, this is what I was worth.

From paycheck and corporate to this is what I think I can charge clients to like your most recent win where you're like, I just charged 20,000 for this project. Like what's telling me about that evolution.

Amber Jones (35:40.239)

Yeah

Amber Jones (35:45.36)

So that was a pretty big jump for me. I'm working on a website. I just finished the development phase of it this past Sunday. It's with the client for review so far. His feedback is amazing. And that's the $20,000 project. It's 35 pages, though. So it's a huge website. The largest website I've done. I think the largest I'd done before that was 18 pages.

Shannon Mattern (36:04.661)

Yeah.

Amber Jones (36:13.869)

You know, I do use AI to help me write the first draft of copy, but I, should see the conversations that I have going back and forth between chat GPT because it's not a conversion copywriter. And I still have to go in and use my human brain and what I know is right about copywriting. And, and, know, you can tell it exactly, exactly. And it is getting better, but I still put so much strategy and so much thought into.

Shannon Mattern (36:21.995)

Just...

Shannon Mattern (36:29.213)

Yes.

You have to teach it along the way.

Amber Jones (36:43.425)

even writing one page of copy. But before that, I think the highest price I charged was 7,000. And that was for more of a typical size website. I think that one was about seven or eight pages. I tried to charge, where I ended up, seemingly, is about $1,000 per page. But I don't say it that way. I meet with each prospect. I figure out

Shannon Mattern (36:51.508)

Wow.

Shannon Mattern (37:08.989)

Right.

Amber Jones (37:13.507)

what they actually need versus what they're saying they need. And then I put together custom proposals for everything. But when I first started out, because I looked this up, my first client, I charged $1,500. It was a single page website, but it also included, I think, business cards and something else. And I'm not a graphic designer. I never claimed to be. But there were other things in addition to the single page website.

And I charged probably a third of what I was actually worth in the first year. I think it's just, for me, I just started adding 20%. And it's not an exact number that I would add each project. But I think as my confidence grew, I knew the value was there. I knew I was undercharging. Because I could do research to find out what

If you just hired a copywriter, I was charging my clients actually what a copywriter would just charge for writing the website. And I'm a conversion copywriter. I'm a certified copywriter. I mean, I have the training. have the experience. So, but what I found was that the market, when I started talking to small business owners, they didn't even know what a copywriter was. So I had to learn how to

reframe what I do, describe it in a way that small business owners can understand. Because copywriting is just, unless they're backgrounds in marketing, they're not going to be familiar with that term. So it's been kind of a balance between what I know I'm worth and what I can actually charge, what the market can hold. Because if I don't find some place in the middle of that, I'm going to lose out on deals. And I don't want to do that.

So it's been a balancing act for sure. I'm still not there. This $20,000 project, I feel very lucky to have landed and he's a great client, but it's a huge project. It's the only one I've been focused on. It's taken me over, it's been two months now. So what is that balance? Do I just take on really, really high value projects, but fewer of them throughout the year, or do I take on...

Amber Jones (39:41.359)

more clients at a four or $5,000 rate and I'm still figuring that out.

Shannon Mattern (39:47.636)

Yeah. And that's what I, that's, you know, that kind of ties back to the paid discovery piece because, you know, when you're saying this, I'm thinking paid discovery. And the reason I'm thinking paid discovery is like, that really allows you to customize your price to a project too.

Um, in terms of ROI, like, when, you know, when you're looking at, um, and then determining is this, is this going to be, is this going to be a project that I think I know I'm worth a thousand dollars a page. This is a 35 page project. That could be $35,000 package matrix it. Do I think there's an option in here?

Amber Jones (40:27.951)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (40:39.017)

based on the paid discovery piece, the portion where you go through and you figure out the strategy for the client, you understand their goals, the ROI, what's possible for them. Are those numbers aligned with what I know I'm worth and what I'm charging and what this client can bear, this specific client could possibly bear? And then with our package matrix strategy,

than looking at like, well, based on this, what can I offer? So the reason I say all of that is like going back to paid discovery, I think it helps you do some more experimentation of do I, I don't know if I have to make this decision right now. Do I just go after high end clients? I can use paid discovery to explore and test and see, see what I can.

what I can really create and then as you're iterating your way to like you said I know I can charge more and those high dollar clients are out there and you're just stepping stoning step stoning stepping stoning a word stepping stoning your way to those to those higher clients if you want them or you find that sweet spot where you're like

Amber Jones (41:47.939)

That sounds right.

Shannon Mattern (42:04.179)

I found the sweet spot. I'm bringing all these skills from corporate. I think you said some terms earlier that I hadn't heard that I'm like, that's fascinating. But like the sales adjacent things that you were doing and you're like, I see how I can apply this to any business. I think all of that is to say is like, you get to decide and

Amber Jones (42:18.337)

and

Shannon Mattern (42:32.607)

You said I haven't figured it out yet and it's almost like maybe there is something to figure out but maybe there's just an exploration and allowing it to unfold however it gets to happen and just make lots of money and have fun along the way.

Amber Jones (42:48.099)

It's so funny you mentioned that because just two days ago, so I finished the development phase of this huge website, right? My brain's been completely tied up on that. So I think once I finished that, my brain had some space to think about some things that have been on my mind in the back of my mind. And I think, again, this is going, and I keep mentioning the corporate world, but I think I've been so resistant to this idea of offering.

Shannon Mattern (43:00.597)

Yeah.

Amber Jones (43:16.079)

marketing services in my business. My background is in marketing. Now, I did a lot of thinking on Monday. I'd use Chatty Boutique back and forth to do some brainstorming. And I think what I found out is that I do want to offer marketing services in my business. However, I don't want to focus on the top of the funnel. I want to focus on the last part of the funnel, which in a beautiful full circle moment,

Shannon Mattern (43:18.635)

Mmm.

Amber Jones (43:44.386)

is exactly what I was doing in the corporate world. I worked with salespeople at the end of the process, not the top of the funnel. So it wasn't traffic marketing. It was relationship marketing, really, and to help them get deals over the finish line. And I did that with content, with training, with tools. I was training them on products, things like that. And what I realized on Monday was that this, I just feel like the universe is so ironic sometimes because

Shannon Mattern (43:52.681)

Mm-hmm.

Amber Jones (44:12.599)

It's like, she's eventually gonna realize this at some point, but I can't believe it took me this long. Like, it just makes sense, you know? And now the fun part comes because now I get to develop the offer and I get to test it out with my current clients. And I've already talked to one of my clients about it and she's like, yes, I wanna do that. So what I'm thinking is focusing on the sales funnel.

helping them optimize their sales funnel because what I'm currently doing is helping them with the conversion on their website. But a lot of my clients don't know what to do with those leads to get it to the sales. So I know how to do all that. I know, and a lot of times it's just what tech do you use? What platforms do you use? And most of my clients are, they don't have time to learn it, just like they don't have time to learn a website platform.

I'm still thinking it through obviously and trying to figure out, I haven't gotten to pricing yet, but that's exciting for me. I am actually working on the business right now versus in it and being strategic and I really like that. That's the fun part for me. Now, two years ago, I probably would not have used the word fun to come up with when describing that I'm considering offering a new service in my business because that to me would be confusing.

Shannon Mattern (45:29.003)

you

Amber Jones (45:36.538)

But like I said before, just launch it. It doesn't have to be perfect. And in fact, you're probably doing yourself some harm if you wait till everything is perfect. Because one thing I've learned, and I know you know this Shannon, you can put together the most perfect offer. You can message it perfectly. And then you go out into the community and you start talking about it and it goes right over people's heads.

that I experienced that. And so I had to find an I just kept tweaking it, tweaking the way I was writing about it, talking about it until it finally started. I saw the light bulbs go on and then I stuck with that messaging. And that's when the lead started happening. But if I had just stuck with, I'm not changing my messaging, I'm not changing the way that I talk about this. This is the correct way to talk about this, to message this. If you don't use the feedback you get from the market.

you're not going to probably not going to sell as much as you want to have that offer.

Shannon Mattern (46:42.207)

I, uh, I'm thinking several things as you're sharing all of that. The first is when you were like, I, I, this isn't top of funnel marketing that I want to do with people. It's the, the middle and bottom of funnel marketing that you want to do. I, that's all we've been focused on at the web designer Academy for like the past, like year, 18 months is we're great.

Amber Jones (46:58.663)

Thank you.

Amber Jones (47:03.599)

you

Shannon Mattern (47:09.867)

top of funnel, like we're visible. There's always way more opportunities to, um, to generate more leads and all of that stuff. And like, you know, obviously go speak, like all of the speaking and podcasts and all the different things we do, but where I was experiencing challenges and where I think a lot of businesses, um, are underserved is exactly what you're talking about, which is.

Yeah, great. You're doing all of this work to get people there, but where are they like getting stopped? And I've talked on the podcast about my American Ninja Warrior course customer journey with like, like 10 missing stepping stones and maybe some spikes along the way. And all of these things that we did that we didn't realize that we're, that we were doing that we were dismantling and putting like a 30 day trial in and like all of these different things.

strategically working on building that. And when you were talking about like, this is what I did in corporate and sales is helping. And I supported the salespeople to help lead their people across the finish line. I don't think you said it exactly like that, but that's the work that you did very strategically, I'm sure very data driven. I think there's such a opportunity there for you to

Amber Jones (48:24.761)

Yeah.

Amber Jones (48:28.655)

I

Shannon Mattern (48:37.033)

like help people understand that maybe they've been trying to solve the wrong problem. Like, let me just stuff more traffic through a leaky funnel or a plugged funnel. So I'm excited for you for that just personally, because I've experienced what's been different. I mean, just even this week. So if you haven't met Lee Scott, who is in WDA and Next Level,

Amber Jones (48:41.913)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (49:06.355)

You guys need to meet. She used to work for a huge airline doing conversion rate optimization. She's who we work with at the web designer Academy on all of our stuff. And you two would totally hit it off. And you think very, very similarly, but she was just like, Hey, I've been, I think we need like a pricing calculator and ROI calculator. think you need to like, like give people a way to actually do the math on.

Amber Jones (49:12.911)

Okay.

Shannon Mattern (49:33.995)

Um, what the web designer Academy costs versus like what's possible for them when they implement the strategy. So she created one. We put it on the website, not on, not like four days ago. And it is like blowing up my inbox with, and I'm like, how are this many people even like on the site at any, like any given time? I don't get like, we're not actually capturing leads from this calculator.

Amber Jones (50:01.998)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (50:02.046)

but I think we might now because we're seeing how many people are using it. But just little things like that that's like, just one little extra tool to help people feel more confident about this decision. And I just got really excited when you shared all that. you have so much knowledge from.

Amber Jones (50:15.098)

Yes.

Shannon Mattern (50:27.91)

One of my business coaches told me that there's profit in the pain. There's profit in the pain. And she was my coach when I was like still working at corporate trying to figure out how to make enough money to replace that day job salary. Cause I had the golden handcuffs on and she was like, Shannon, you're going through all these challenges. I know you hate this job. you know, I know you've worked with some really difficult clients and you've said yes to so many things just because you're trying to escape.

Amber Jones (50:31.683)

Yes.

Amber Jones (50:43.834)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (50:58.122)

the situation that you're in and you're saying us anything. She was like, but I can promise you there's profit in the pain. And this is before the web designer academy was even like a twinkle in my eye. I was still doing freelance web design and trying to build this like DIY course training business. And when you're saying like this,

all of this corporate experience is coming full circle. All I keep thinking is like, there's profit in the pain. There's so much gold in that experience. And once, and I think you've done the like a lot of good work to like heal yourself. Like, like, physiologically, that the right word? And like, neurologically from that, you're like, now you're allowing

Amber Jones (51:30.798)

Yes.

Amber Jones (51:40.186)

Mm-hmm.

Amber Jones (51:47.92)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (51:53.103)

all of that value that is in you to come out and be applied in new ways. And I'm really excited for what's next for you.

Amber Jones (52:03.545)

Yeah.

I am too, I don't know what it looks like exactly yet, but that's part of the fun. If it doesn't work, then that's fine. But I've carved out some time in December, early December to work on that and we'll see what happens. As you were talking, I was thinking of this analogy that I heard one time and we all hear that expression, get out of your comfort zone.

and stretch yourself. Well that doesn't sound very enjoyable. Who wants to do that? But I heard, I heard, and this ties back to a lot of what we talked about this entire call is that it applies to networking, it applies to anything new that you have not done before. And yes, practice makes perfect. But the analogy that always helped me when I would have to, as an introvert, for example, putting myself out,

Shannon Mattern (52:38.664)

No.

Amber Jones (53:03.375)

there to networking events, being seen in the community and all these things, oh, what if people don't like me or what if I don't say the right thing or all these things that our brain comes up with, right? The analogy that helped me was it's like a rubber band. You're like a rubber band. You can stretch yourself just out of your comfort zone temporarily, but when you go back to where you were, that rubber band is gonna be slightly bigger than it was before.

And I don't remember who said that. I heard it probably on a podcast or something, but I'm like, yes, like that my brain can accept. So I try to apply that principle to everything that I do where I don't exactly have a roadmap for it, but I know I can figure it out. I figured out everything since then until now. And no matter what, whatever it ends up being, it will be on my terms. It will be.

you know, my business, my way of doing things, not a corporate way of doing things, obviously, but whatever works for me. And if it doesn't work, then I can always pivot from there.

Shannon Mattern (54:11.752)

That is so good. That is like the perfect place to wrap up this episode. And I want to ask you the question that I ask every guest that comes on the show. And that is what belief about yourself did you have to change to get to where you are today?

Amber Jones (54:30.701)

I know I keep harping on it, but it's so present for me like right now, just in the last week. I've had to reconcile with the corporate version of me and my past and my history and fully leverage. I've been using everything I learned in the corporate world on my clients' websites. It's reflective in my work, but now I'm pulling it into the rest of my business and

adapting it to how I see fit. I think that's the biggest thing that I've learned and it's a huge belief. You know, it's a huge mind shift, obviously. But I think, like you said, I think I've healed enough from that experience that, I mean, our brains are always, they're wired to protect us, right? So as long as I focus on the positive and just whenever that inner critic pops up,

and we all have it, we all have imposter syndrome no matter how advanced we are in our business, Because our brains are trying to protect us, right? Whenever it pops up for me, I'm like, pipe down, I've got this. And acknowledging it, that's like half the battle right there. So I don't know, I'm just gonna focus on the positive and take what I can from the corporate world and just make it my own and create the business that I truly love.

Shannon Mattern (55:42.196)

So good.

Shannon Mattern (55:59.051)

So good. And I think the thing that like, really stands out to me with everything that you've shared, and you talked a little bit about this before, but like, just the the scarcity of going from there's not enough for everyone to really seeing how

like there's more than enough for everyone. We can all win and we can all come together to support each other to create more for all of us than what we all had before walking into this room or this conversation or this engagement, this, you know, client project. that it's, it, that there's more than enough to go around. think that that is like another.

Amber Jones (56:28.387)

Thank you.

Shannon Mattern (56:51.44)

like through line of what you shared to that I think is is really, really powerful and just the mindset of, I'm just going to assume that people want to help me. I think that that's like so beautiful. Can you share with everyone where they can go to connect with you and learn more about you?

Amber Jones (57:12.399)

Absolutely. I am not very active on social media on purpose. I do have social media pages, but the best way to find me is through my website, that's jonescopywriting.com.

Shannon Mattern (57:15.37)

Thank

Shannon Mattern (57:24.722)

Amber, thank you so much for being here and being willing to share your journey. I really appreciate it.

Amber Jones (57:31.329)

Now I thank you Shannon for having me on. This has really been an honor.