Web Design Business Growth: Lessons from Squarespace SEO Expert Bekah Read

Shannon Mattern (00:02.196)

Hey everyone and welcome back to the Profitable Web Designer podcast. Today I am joined by Becca Reed who is a small business web designer, a Squarespace educator and a mom of two who is super passionate about helping creative entrepreneurs build high converting SEO driven websites fast. And Becca sent me a really awesome outreach email.

asking to be on the podcast and have a conversation that she thought you guys would get a lot out of. I totally agreed and I was like, yes, let's do it. So Becca, welcome to the Profitable Web Designer podcast.

Bekah Read (00:39.2)

Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited to just chat with you.

Shannon Mattern (00:43.06)

Yeah, me too. So we were just chatting before I hit record about how you way back in the day found like a free WordPress training that I did when you were like exploring, you know, what platform you wanted to work on. So I want to like, go even farther back from there. And I'd love to hear more about like your journey into even becoming

a web designer and what your backstory is.

Bekah Read (01:15.854)

Yeah, so going to college, I was doing mass communication. So, you know, we learned WordPress in college and I just didn't really know the direction I wanted to go. And I actually left, after I graduated, I went to Honduras and I was on the mission field for a year and a half. I worked in orphanages. I fostered a little boy for four and a half months. So when I came back to America and got kind of my job in corporate, I just didn't feel fulfilled there. So that's kind of when...

I was working with realtors and the female realtors were like, just go out on your own. You can make more money. They weren't valuing me. And so I did it. I just took the leap and went out on my own. And I didn't really know what I was gonna do. I kind of dabbled in photography. I knew WordPress, so I started kind of messing around with that, doing logos. And I really preferred web design. And right off the bat, I was working with primarily new entrepreneurs. And so people that...

wanted me to design their website, but they couldn't afford ongoing maintenance with me. And that's when I really discovered Squarespace. And I was like, okay, I think this might be a better fit just because it's easier, especially back in 2018. I did not feel WordPress was user friendly. But I loved the free training you did. I was like, if I had them all go through this free training, they could probably figure it out. But so I started with Squarespace and show it and just dove in and realized website was what I liked and I enjoyed.

Right off the bat, knew I wanted to really focus on SEO for myself. I knew it was a long-term game. It wasn't my initial, you know, how I got a lot of clients right off the bat, but now that's how I may get like 85 to 90 % of my clients is just through them finding me on Google. So that's kind how my business started and where it's at now.

Shannon Mattern (03:02.774)

I love this and I wanna unpack that a little bit more because I totally agree with you like back in the day. That's why my WordPress training was so popular because it was not a beginner friendly DIY friendly platform. that's one of the things that Squarespace does so, so well is they're just so good at what they do is like kind of.

I don't know, democratizing web design for all kinds of, all skill levels where designers can make really great money building Squarespace websites for clients and DIYers can also do really well, like building their own website in those early stages before they're ready to work with someone. So you having kind of like worked with different

levels of clientele. Where do you see the like tipping point for a business for a new business owner from like going from DIY to hiring a web designer?

Bekah Read (04:19.032)

That's a good question. Honestly, I think the tipping point probably should be sooner than a lot of people do. And the reason I say that is I just see so many people spending 40, 80 hours designing their website. And generally, you can make more doing whatever you're doing than spending 40 hours designing your website. that's coming from me, who I am like a huge advocate of DIY. I have a course on Squarespace that teaches people to DIY their website.

all about not paying me if you can do it. But I just think unless you like really can't afford it and you're willing to put in a little bit of time and my course tries to teach you to not put in a ton of time, but it still does take time. And so the tipping point, think if you have the funds, you can just get a return on your investment so much easier. And I think I see so many people focusing on social media and I get that it's free. And so that's awesome. But how many hours are you putting in creating reels?

and are you getting a return on that investment, I'd be willing to bet not. Whereas what I feel like with a website, if you can get it running, you can get the SEO starting to work for you, the turnover is just better. And so, yeah, I think pretty early on in your business, unless you love DIYing, if you're like, this is so fun for me, go for it. But if that's not the case, then I think hiring a website designer is honestly one of the first business investments you should make.

Shannon Mattern (05:46.526)

I love that you said that so much, because there's so many little nuances to concepts that, newer business owners and even web designers listening to this, by the way, you don't have to DIY your own website, even though web design is your skill. Sometimes it is easier to just get it done by hiring someone else to do it for you. I know that sounds crazy.

maybe counterintuitive that you're like, I'm a web designer. I should be building my own website. I'm like, what if you took that 40 to 80 hours and went out there and started building some relationships, getting clients thinking, testing out who you want to work with so that you can then, you know, implement an SEO strategy and start like making some money. think I just feel like the opportunity costs of

DIYing is so high and we don't even consider it. We're just like, I just didn't take money out of my bank account, but what did that decision really cost you? And if you think about it that way, you can also like have that conversation with your clients in that kind of a way, just like what you said. So I love that so much. you.

Bekah Read (07:08.43)

Yeah. Another thought I had too is like, analyze yourself as a website designer. There's like two very different types of designers. There's someone like me where I am all about getting the website done. Even if it's not perfect, you can always make tweaks, get it done, get it into the world, have it start gaining SEO. There's no right or wrong answer here. But then a lot of my web designer friends are what I like to call pixel pushers. And so they're like, wait, no, that, move that a couple to the left. Okay, right.

If you're a pixel pusher, your website's gonna take longer, right? Your timeline is probably gonna be longer for clients, and that includes yourself, and it's gonna be even longer for yourself because we never prioritize our own work, and you're gonna be super particular. And so that's when I would be really thinking about hiring it out, or is there a way you can continue to put fire under your butt? Because I just see so many designers who have these websites that they haven't updated in three, four years.

and it doesn't reflect their business anymore. And so I think if you can hire a copywriter, for example, well, if you get new copy, you're going to have to update your website. And so maybe that would give you the fire. Is there some way that you can put fire under yourself to continue updating and making your website reflect who you are? Unless you're somebody like me that's just like, yeah, let's make updates all the time and just make them go live and correct them later. There's no right or wrong way, but analyze how you work.

Shannon Mattern (08:33.104)

I am so like you where I'm like, let's just like push this bird out of the nest. I don't need all of my ducks in a row. There's going to be broken links. Like we literally just pushed our new website design live last week at the time of recording this. Maybe it's been a week and a half now. And my team that worked on it, they're like, so are you ready to launch? And I'm like, sure. Like, I don't know.

Bekah Read (09:00.674)

Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (09:01.492)

I don't care if there's broken links, if the mobile display is wonky. We'll find it all, we'll fix it, it'll be good. It does not have to be perfect before it goes out the door. And I also pre-frame that communication with my audience too to just be like, hey, guess what, we're in QA. If you find weird stuff, send it my way because I love your like,

just viewpoint of like, let's just get it out there and get it working because we could stay in perfectionism for ever. And that's like, that's all mindset stuff. Like that's the mindset stuff that we work on in the web designer academy about like, how is your, the pressure that you're putting on the perception of you preventing your results. And you're like, let's just get it out there and get some SEO going.

Bekah Read (09:44.898)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (10:01.958)

Like, I love that. So tell me more about like, kind of your philosophy and strategy around like, getting it out there and getting the SEO going. Like, what's your, what's the little bit of the behind the scenes of your process or your thought process on that?

Bekah Read (10:19.052)

Yeah. Yeah, I'll answer that in a second. I also want to just touch on what we were just talking about because I really struggled and if there's other newer website designers, maybe you can relate to this. I really struggled with the comparison game, especially in the beginning of my business, seeing these websites that were just stunning. And I felt like, wow, I'm just I'm just not as talented. My websites are not as pretty. And maybe that's true. Maybe it's irrelevant. What really changed the game for me and made my

my philosophy kind of shift was 2020 when I was like, oh crap, nobody wants to, and people actually were hiring for websites, but I thought when it first started, was like, nobody's going to hire me. What do I need to do? So that's when I was like website in a day, let's do website in a day and see if, it worked for my personality because I'm not a perfectionist and I'm not a pixel pusher. But when I did that, I started to realize, oh, I do have value. Like I, I am a good designer because I can crank it out quickly and there is value in that.

And I will never be a perfectionist. My websites will never be just absolutely land and they're perfect. They won't be that way. But I can crank them out in a day and a lot of other designers can't. if you're new to website design and you're comparing yourself, like realize you have a gifting. It might take a couple of years to figure it out, but you have a gifting. And I don't know, that's just something that came to my mind when we were talking about that. So I wanted to share that, but also to answer your question. Yeah, about kind of my philosophy.

Shannon Mattern (11:35.878)

I love that.

Bekah Read (11:41.804)

I mean, it kind of is what we talked about. I am, this is such a cliche saying, but I'm a progress over perfection person. get it into the world. And that's what I, that's what I, mean, any, if you watch any of my YouTube videos, like I'm constantly just like, looks good, get it done, move on. Like that's just like my, mean, kind of just that way in general in life too. But yeah, that's, and I think a big part of that is because of it helps with SEO. Even when it comes to like,

SEO, I have a free training and I say in the free training, put a 20 minute timer on, search some keywords. Are you gonna find the absolute perfect keyword with the best SEO difficulty and volume? Probably not, because you just set the timer for 20 minutes. But set a timer, find one that is overall pretty good, fits in your SD and your volume and move on with your life. Because you're at least doing something and you're probably doing way more than the other people in your industry.

That's just kind of my philosophy with everything.

Shannon Mattern (12:44.372)

I love that so much because what I'm sitting here thinking as you're saying this, I'm like, that's preventing overthinking, that's preventing over researching, that's procrastinating. It's even preventing the overwhelm that keeps you from even getting started. And I think one of the biggest challenges I see with our students is they want to know that the thing that they're choosing to do

is going to be the right thing and create the exact results that they expect. And what I hear you saying under what you're saying is like, you can't know that, so just do something so that you can put it out there, get some feedback, then make any changes that you need to make based on feedback. But like, we can't just predict that ahead of time that the...

Bekah Read (13:39.939)

Right.

Shannon Mattern (13:43.198)

the things that we do, like, if I know everything about everything and then make the perfect choice and then like, do check all the boxes and do everything right, then that will result in clients. And I'm gonna take two months to figure that out. And that's two months that I've delayed my results of maybe picking two clicks away from the right thing and getting some feedback and then we're iterating my way towards that.

Bekah Read (14:06.38)

Yeah.

Bekah Read (14:12.224)

Yeah. And like the world changes, you change, right? Like all of sudden now I have two toddlers. have a different, my ideal client is completely different now. Like I just changed it and I'm seven years in. If I would have spent all of my time trying to figure out my ideal client at year one, I would have just wasted potentially a lot of money hiring a copywriter to write for my ideal client, you know? And so,

Shannon Mattern (14:16.526)

Yeah.

Bekah Read (14:39.98)

I think just, yeah, like picking something and moving on, even when it came to like my timeline of how I did website in a days that changed in 2020, like things are gonna change and you have to be able to work with those changes. And if you have already invested so much time and money making XYZ decision, it's gonna be a lot harder for you to adapt.

Shannon Mattern (15:02.787)

I so agree with that. I'm thinking just about even design and how you're like, website in a day, we're getting this done. It's not going to be perfect, but it's perfect for what it is, I'm guessing. For a website in a day, checks all the boxes. And I'm thinking of the beautiful website.

with all of the things that we think we want because we want to present ourselves that way because we're trying, like this is my real thoughts. I'm like, we are trying to cover up a lack of confidence with a beautiful website that looks a certain way that's going to like present us in the best light. I have been there in my business journey where I've hired a...

designer who wasn't a web designer, but I hired a design company to do this whole brand strategy and this beautiful, gorgeous design for me so I could feel and look legit quote unquote. And then what happened was it was not operational across all different ways that I needed to use it in my business. It only looked good in this one circumstance.

of these certain dimensions and trying to like build it outside of that was like impossible. And so I think of like the pressure we put on ourselves to look and be a certain way when none of that is necessary and you really can just get some like.

Bekah Read (16:24.941)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (16:49.468)

Same thing we've been talking about, like just get something out there and just start doing the thing because you will create that confidence by doing so much more than you'll create it by looking a certain way but not really feeling the way that you're trying to portray yourself. So I'm just like reflecting back on the 27, 2018 version of my business where like that's, I was like,

Bekah Read (17:10.946)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (17:15.422)

this looking a certain way will solve this problem for me. It's like, no, actually I need to change my mindset.

Bekah Read (17:21.356)

Yeah, it's crazy how much mindset plays into business and how much you charge and just everything. And I'm not a master at it by any means, but you know, I'm I am learning it right, especially right now. Like it's just been crazy. One of the things that I feel like I'm currently working on is if I'm being honest, the past year of my business has been the worst in seven years. And as I've talked with other designers, I've noticed this to be a trend with other designers, which slightly helps me feel better.

but still feel very, self-conscious about it. And so I had somebody reach out to me. I have never given a free website away, right? Like, cause value, value yourself. Like, I totally agree with all those things. And I had somebody reach out to me who was starting a life coaching business. And I knew, I know her personally. And she's like, would you be willing to change exchange services? And because it was such a poor past year, I was like, I just missed designing websites. So sure.

even care if she provides me with life's coaching. I just want to do the work I love doing. And so I did. And in that, I was like, I love designing for life coaches. And that kind of helped me realize who my ideal client might be changing to. And then I also have been doing life coaching with her. And a lot of what she's been working through is this money mindset that I'm struggling with. so it's just, even when you're not the seven years is like that far, but

You just are constantly, there's constantly things like, I feel like I got over the comparison thing and then it's starting to trickle back in. It's just this ongoing thing that you have to continually work on. And I think one of the biggest things that has helped me is having a community. so whether you join a group like you have, or even just find other designers who are in the same place of business, who are your competitors, that has been really helpful to just be like, what's going on in your business right now?

How are your clients treating you? Just to have people to talk about and feel like you're not alone has been really helpful for me.

Shannon Mattern (19:23.604)

I love everything you just said. I, you know, I went through that really challenging year where you're like, what is happening? Everything's like going sideways. That happened for me, like halfway through, like 2023, like the first part of, of 2024. And I think that, you know, it's one of those things. It's just like,

when something like that happens and things were working a certain way and then they stop working a certain way, I think just like what you were, you're like, I'm open to whatever opportunity, like it doesn't have to look a certain way. I'm going to just like be open and like follow threads where they might lead me, like say yes to things that people are.

are offering me because that was an exchange of an offer. I think that that's so different than like, hey, will you build a website for me for free for exposure or whatever, you know, we've all been offered. I think that that's such a different like thing to say yes to. I think when we are, I know for me, when I found myself in that situation where I'm like, more of what used to work is not working right now. And I don't know why. And

Bekah Read (20:24.194)

Very true. Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (20:46.692)

I have to now let go and just say yes to whatever comes my way and unexpected, beautiful things came out of that. And I think what I really learned there was like, there's an exchange that is just as, but way more valuable than money.

And I think that you experienced that with this saying yes to this thing that your friend or colleague was like, hey, I have something of value that I think I can help you with. You have something I need, let's do this. And now you're experiencing more than what you would have gotten if she just paid you money for it.

Bekah Read (21:37.772)

Yeah, it's so true. Can I ask when you had this experience of your business changing, what was the end? Because I'm in the thick of it, right? I'm starting to get a sense of how this can turn out beautifully, but I would love to hear how yours turned out beautifully.

Shannon Mattern (21:47.371)

my gosh. Yes.

Shannon Mattern (21:55.22)

my gosh, okay, so yes, ask me anything and I will tell you, like, we can even dig into what's going on with you if you're open to it. For me, we're doing well now. So long story short, I changed my offer and my pricing and I didn't make any money for like six months.

and I have a team and I have people to pay and I have expenses and I was like, crap. So I didn't pay myself so I could pay my team and that's it. And I thought, I'll just, I'll be able to save this. So if I just don't pay myself for a few months, I'll be able to like hustle, do another promotion, do more, like do more marketing. I'll be able to turn it around and I'll be able to pay myself again. It'll be like nothing ever happened. Well, that did not.

Bekah Read (22:27.798)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (22:52.86)

So what I ended up doing was rolling back to the old offer. I reduced my price back to the price that I had raised it from. And that was a very data-driven decision. We were just looking at how much did we sell at these prices? And I was like, OK, well, I'm... And I didn't feel like I was eating crow.

but it was almost like, I overshot the audience that I had currently, right? So it's not like I don't believe that there are clients out there willing to pay that much. I didn't have those people in my audience at the time, and that's what I learned by making that offer. And I didn't also have the runway.

Bekah Read (23:32.088)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Right.

Bekah Read (23:44.46)

Yep.

Shannon Mattern (23:49.876)

in my bank account to cover the lag time between the decision to make the change, right? So plus the landscape had changed and I didn't have my finger on the pulse of that either. So it was just a perfect storm of like circumstances. then I made it all about, I was like, I messed up, I made mistakes, took a lot of blame, had to work through that to be like,

Bekah Read (23:50.36)

Yeah.

Bekah Read (23:58.348)

Yeah, yeah.

Bekah Read (24:05.868)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (24:19.922)

Whether I did or didn't, what's there to learn here? It's like one, I'm resilient. I want this bad enough that I'm willing to do whatever it takes. I'm willing to receive all of the help from all of the beautiful people in my life who are like, hey, I see you're struggling. Here's something that you might wanna try. And I just surrendered. Instead of feeling like I have to be the one to figure this out, I was like,

Tell me what I'm not seeing. Tell me what to do and I'll do it. Like I had to let go of control and thinking that I had to be the one with all of the answers. And I had to let go of thinking that I could control it. I had to just surrender, release the judgment of myself for messing it up quote unquote.

and then allow support and feedback and be patient and try different things and test different things and have some hard conversations. I had to lay off a team member. That sucked, but I had to, but I had to grow into the kind of person that could do that. And now for the past 18 months, we're like, we've been good, but it was, my gosh, it was hard. And it also, I'm so proud of myself. You know what I mean?

Bekah Read (25:32.451)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (25:49.072)

So, and now it's just like, I know if that happens again, or I should say when it happens again, cause it will, the market will change, something will change.

I won't hold on to my ego for as long as I did the last time. I hope. I hope I will surrender faster and call in reinforcements faster and be like, what am I not seeing here? Help me understand what to try because when we're stressed like that, like our high level thinking goes offline and we need other people to show us what's up. So that's my experience.

Bekah Read (26:07.969)

Yeah.

Thank

Bekah Read (26:23.832)

So true. Yeah.

I will. I think I'm in that.

Shannon Mattern (26:29.106)

And I think the only thing that would prevent you from coming out on the other side of that is if you just were like, I'm done.

Bekah Read (26:38.178)

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's so good.

Shannon Mattern (26:40.596)

So if you're not done, you'll be fine.

Bekah Read (26:43.694)

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's where I'm at. I'm having to release what I want, what I think is working, all those things, and be open a little bit more. I think for me, it was, had not a similar, and again, I'm still in the thick of it. So I'm still very much trying to figure it out. But I did what the experts said. And it's like, you become a website designer,

Shannon Mattern (27:11.614)

Mm-hmm.

Bekah Read (27:13.292)

become quote unquote successful, whatever that looks like for you. And then they're like, okay, what's the next step for you? Creating an online course or like passive income, right? That's what you hear about scaling. So I'm like, okay, well, I love teaching. actually a passive or a course is a great idea. And so I created a course and it sold ish, not much, not enough to like be an income stream by any means. And so then I was like, okay, well, I wanna make this work. And so this was now 20.

Shannon Mattern (27:15.252)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (27:20.5)

Scaling, yep, yep.

Bekah Read (27:43.726)

24, I guess it was maybe just a year ago, maybe two years ago. No, I can't remember. Oh, a year ago, was just a year ago, 2024. I purchased a $4,000 course that taught me how to make this successful, my course successful, right? And maybe it works for some people, but my email, again, I should have analyzed my situation. My email list was only at 1500. Could I have put in ads in, maybe, but like.

The $4,000 course did not get a return on my investment because I had invested that the most I've ever invested. was tons of money and also tons of time refining my course, which I do think I produced a better product in the end and it's more beneficial for people and that's great. But that is why it was so hard for me to let go because I was so tight fisted and I wanted to continue promoting, continue.

investing time and effort. And in the end, I invested probably honestly, probably 80 to 100, maybe 200 hours improving this course slash going through the course and $4,000. And there was not a return on that investment. And now, and when you change your marketing language, right? Like I went from being like, I'm a website designer, website in day is my service to I sell this course. I'm speaking to a completely different client that wasn't in my audience.

who maybe already had a website, so they're like, I don't need to go through your course, and I wasn't making sales, and so had to bring new people into my ecosystem, and so that same thing, it didn't get that immediate return, and now I'm paying for it, because now people are like, do you even design websites? Or do you just have this course? And it's like, oh crap. So now I have to, a year and a half later, I'm having to really shift things and decide what I wanna do.

and start to build my business back up in some ways. So that's where I'm at.

Shannon Mattern (29:40.18)

Well, so I did the same, the Hail Mary kind of thing that you did. So I just, I don't think that that decision is abnormal at all to be like, okay, like I'm doing this thing. And for me, I had to make peace with that decision to invest. I did a whole podcast episode about this.

And I just listened to it recently because I was like, need my own wisdom again. But it was all about like, okay, if I didn't get what was on the sales page for that thing that I decided to spend money on, what did I get out of it? What is my ROI, even if it's not money? Because I invested in a program that was $25,000 to help me fix

Bekah Read (30:28.823)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (30:38.522)

this fixed, what was like starting, I'm like, I just need to get better at sales. I just need to get better at sales, then I can sell this $10,000 offer. And that, my business could sustain that revenue level, like that investment at that time, but still it's $25,000. Like, my gosh, right? That's a lot of money. And I was like, this high level program is gonna teach me how to get better at sales. And I'm sure that it did.

But if I don't have the people in my audience, that's not gonna convince the people who I don't have that avatar in my audience. It's a whole different, like I just missed some things in that decision, but what did I get out of that? I would say that I probably already have recouped that investment in a completely different unexpected way than I intended.

Bekah Read (31:10.83)

Thank you.

Right.

Bekah Read (31:17.357)

Right.

Bekah Read (31:23.864)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (31:36.07)

which was like lessons learned and out of that, the coaching that I had to get out of that was like, I needed to make these difficult changes that I didn't want to make in terms of like team and expenses. And so I had to go through a process of like forgiving myself for business decisions that I made because the version of me that made that decision did so with the best of intentions.

the best information that I had at the time, and maybe the thing that I got out of it or will get out of it wasn't the thing that was on the sales page or what I thought I was supposed to get out of it. But I am the kind of person who will get something out of every decision, regardless of whether it's the success story or as a business coach said to me once there's profit in the pain.

Bekah Read (32:29.166)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (32:33.886)

there's profit in the pain and you either figure out what that is or you say that you failed or whatever. And I so can like empathize of the position, the spot that you're in right now. I just like, I love talking to people who are just like open books.

Bekah Read (32:34.126)

Mm-hmm.

you

Bekah Read (32:44.482)

you

Bekah Read (32:58.03)

That's me. I just share it.

Shannon Mattern (32:58.97)

like that. I'm like, this is a good podcast episode, because this is like such an open book conversation about like, we want to grow. There was a reason that you got to a certain point in your journey. And you're like, I want more than this. So I'm curious, like what that was for you, you had mentioned at the beginning, like, you went to Honduras, you had this experience, you fostered a

boy for four months, you came home, you went to corporate and that just felt like nothing and you needed, you were made for more. Was that a similar feeling when you were like, I did all the things, I've become a successful web designer. I feel like there's something more here that led you down this path to create a course.

Bekah Read (33:48.876)

Yeah, yes, I wanted obviously to make more money, right? That is part of it. And part of the reason I wanted to make more money was, so I currently have a three and a two year old. So when I was working on this, I had like a newborn and a one year old, right? And I wanted to be able to be home with them or so I thought. And then I tried that and I was like, this is really hard. Actually, let's send them to daycare a little bit. So that's changed as well. But.

Shannon Mattern (34:01.844)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (34:08.04)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (34:12.179)

Yeah.

Bekah Read (34:15.674)

I wanted to make more money passively so that I could simply be home with them. And I also really enjoyed teaching. Like when I was in Honduras, I also taught English for six months to kids who didn't speak any English. So I just enjoy teaching and that was an opportunity to do that. I think I didn't know a lot of the downsides of course management, passive income. It's never passive. Like you constantly are marketing yourself.

Shannon Mattern (34:19.283)

Yeah.

Bekah Read (34:44.046)

And I actually enjoy marketing as well, but I don't get to do as much of like the fun design stuff. And so I enjoyed the teaching. enjoyed, I actually really liked the live when I first did it live, like the live cohort, that was a lot more fun than just like having this course selling in the backend. But yeah, it kind of came down to, just wanted, I love traveling and I wanted the money more for, we don't live where our family is. we, that's part of the reason I didn't want to be in corporate is.

If I want to maintain a relationship with my in-laws and my own family, we go back to the Midwest every like couple months. And I wanted the funds to be able to do that without anxiety. so yeah, it was kind of a mixture of a lot of things. I still am like trying to decide like, what do I really want? And I think that is still my business. I just need to figure out what changes need to be made. And maybe there's not.

many changes, I don't know, but I'm still just kind of working through that. But yeah, I don't know if that answered your question.

Shannon Mattern (35:46.324)

It does. I see courses. I coach and mentor web designers in growing their business in various different ways. Because the North Star is, are my goals for my lifestyle that I want to live? And you're very clear. I want the freedom and flexibility and financial independence to be able to

do these things for and with my family and not be restrained or restricted or feel stressed about those things. so, you know, on one hand, courses seem like a really awesome way to do that. And as like a course creator myself, what has been super interesting about my journey is that it was just as

easy to sell a $5,000 group coaching program like the Web Designer Academy. Sorry, it was just as hard to sell a $29 a month membership back in the day after it was like free five day website challenge, join this program to teach you now how to like get traffic to your website and like whatever. And it was $29 a month. That was just as

quote unquote hard or it was the same level of effort to sell something that's $5,000 as it is to sell something for $29. So if I'm gonna put that much time, effort and energy into marketing and sales, I'm going to sell one thing for $5,000 and deliver that one thing all day.

Bekah Read (37:35.853)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (37:35.988)

And also at the same time, I see that potential for courses because they're scalable. And it's like, you do get to a tipping point where I can sell the $100 thing to 500 people. But in order to do that, I need to be speaking to 10,000 people. And it takes a long time to speak to 10,000 people. But to sell a $5,000 thing, I might need to only talk to 10 or 20 people.

Bekah Read (38:03.607)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (38:05.316)

That's kind of the, the decision making of like, we, this is like what we talk about in the web designer Academy. want to be making my minimum baseline revenue from services in a way that like, have the capacity to then add on the course. And then the course is just gravy because then I need time to like, to do that. And so.

Shannon Mattern (38:38.546)

I feel like your experience is not uncommon with course creation because of the time that it takes to build up the critical mass to make the kind of money where you can make one offer and make $5,000 and have a hundred, know, however many people buy it.

Bekah Read (39:02.904)

Well, and I have a question for you. Do you feel like you can truthfully, honestly be successful selling that course if your audience is small? so like, basically what I've come to the conclusion is you really do need to do ads. Like I have a lot of freebies. I have some great trainings that bring people in, but even my trainings, I mean, I'm posting a YouTube video every week, directing them to my free training. I post that YouTube on

Shannon Mattern (39:04.41)

Yes, please ask.

Bekah Read (39:32.76)

Pinterest, Instagram, Google, Facebook, email, and LinkedIn. I'm doing the marketing things, but you still can only really grow your email list with a free training or with a freebie, I feel, at such a level. Maybe if I connected that, there's other things I could do, right? I could partner with somebody and then use their email list. I get it. But I just feel like the way I'm doing it, it's gonna be a really slow growth. And then the turnover, the purchase for that course,

is gonna be really slow. Does that make sense?

Shannon Mattern (40:05.2)

It does. like, so we don't run ads for the web designer Academy. We've tried it. It has never worked, especially because of the price point of our program being what it is. And it might take somebody who's listening to this podcast today, six months to a year to decide whether or not they're joining our program. And so.

Bekah Read (40:08.51)

you don't? Okay.

Bekah Read (40:18.296)

Mm.

Shannon Mattern (40:30.308)

I dabbled in ads, could never get them profitable. And we just decided like, that's never gonna be our strategy. But that's because of the price, that's because of like the price point of our program. And I have solely exclusively marketed my business through relationships. We are starting to optimize our SEM, or I think that was.

Bekah Read (40:43.15)

Great.

Shannon Mattern (40:56.966)

a thousand percent a missed opportunity for me because I'm like a move fast, just get it out there. And honestly, I don't care to do any kind of keyword research. I'm going all in on relationships. I totally missed an opportunity and we're like going back and backpedaling and backtracking and backfilling. 10 years of missed opportunity on, you know, like actually caring about SEO. So that's a, you know, a mistake that I made.

Bekah Read (41:14.659)

Yeah.

Bekah Read (41:19.128)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (41:26.174)

But I do think that you can build an audience for a course strategically by using partnerships and relationships and speaking at summits and going on other people's podcasts and in doing that without ads, but it depends on your price point of your course, who your audience is and the conversion, right? Because you can expect to like one to 3%.

Bekah Read (41:40.225)

Hmm.

Shannon Mattern (41:55.42)

of your email list to purchase a course. And when you do the math and you're like, okay, I need to grow my email list to 10,000 people to make the level of money that I want to make. And then work backwards from there. And then strategically say who already has the audience that I that I want to get in front of and do what you did today or for this, which was send a really actually personal

outreach message to me to like be on the show. Absolutely. think that you can, but it's like, what are your short-term goals? What are your long-term goals? And how can you just get some web design clients through the door while you continue to figure out and take some of the pressure off of like this course needing to work fast. And if it needs to work fast, then maybe I like throw ad money at it and maybe that doesn't work. And then

Bekah Read (42:36.62)

Yeah.

Bekah Read (42:48.29)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (42:54.664)

you just like dig a bigger hole. And I'm like, I wouldn't, not that you're asking for my advice, but I'm like, I wouldn't do it that way. But I will give you, I should call this podcast unsolicited advice. That's what I should call it, because I can't help myself.

Bekah Read (43:00.334)

That totally makes sense. No, I love it. Welcome to our consultation call. That was not being sent in, no, I do.

I love it. No, it's amazing. It's so good. And I totally agree. And I think that's where I'm at this point where I'm like, there are tweaks I could make to my course slash funnel to make it convert better. But I'm just at a point where I'm like, I've invested too much time and I just need to, I need to let it go for a second. But I will say, anyone listening, like focus on the SEO because if you search Squarespace SEO course, I'm on page one of Google. If you search website in a day,

Shannon Mattern (43:29.833)

Yeah.

Bekah Read (43:40.43)

I'm on page one of Google. Like, and that is how I'm getting my clients. Like I don't ever live launch my SEO course anymore. And I don't make a ton of sales. Like I'm to be honest. It's truly an evergreen passive income. So like it is not making a ton of it's a $250 course. Okay. So like I'm not making bank on it. Um, but I also don't do any work. So other than I have to update it whenever Squarespace makes changes, but, um, so I do think SEO is like, that's my favorite thing in the whole world. So that's worth it.

Shannon Mattern (43:43.72)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (43:58.888)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (44:08.562)

my gosh, so I have thoughts for you. Are you open to like workshopping this? how are you currently, like who are you currently working with? Are you doing your website in a day? Like offers, right? And people are finding you, like they're Google searching that and finding you. Are you doing any other marketing strategies for that?

Bekah Read (44:13.42)

Always open for thoughts, yes.

Bekah Read (44:23.629)

Yes.

Bekah Read (44:37.272)

was very active on Instagram and then three months ago I decided this is not doing anything. That was another one that took me way too long to let go of. I was not getting any conversion on Instagram and spent so much time.

Shannon Mattern (44:48.39)

I don't do any social media either. This is all I do. This podcast. Yeah.

Bekah Read (44:51.766)

Yeah, I was like, this is not it's not worth. my my YouTube channel, I don't get a lot of website in a day traffic because a lot of them are like tutorials on show at our Squarespace. And so it's more of the DIY. So the YouTube channel is more getting people onto my email list. So in terms of like marketing my website in a day service, it's more occasionally I will post about it in my emails, but not a ton of promotion there.

Shannon Mattern (45:16.222)

Mm-hmm.

Bekah Read (45:20.018)

This is where this is where it's been the failure for the past year. I haven't talked about my website today. And so it's it's either through them finding me on Google more. That's the most often. Or at this point, I've done 50 website in a day's I've designed over 100 websites. So I'm still getting referral type of stuff going on. That's going to.

Shannon Mattern (45:29.684)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (45:38.196)

Amazing. how many, 50 website in a day, that's awesome. that's like, so how many of these do you want to be doing a month? How many are you currently doing a month and how many do you want to be doing a month?

Bekah Read (45:45.814)

I love them. They're so fun to do. They're great. And I've got the system nailed in.

Bekah Read (45:54.894)

Well, the past year, like I said, was terrible. So in the past year, I was doing not even one a month, like maybe six in the year. So every other month.

Shannon Mattern (46:02.493)

Okay.

So that was just a result. We could describe it as terrible, or we can describe it as a result of you focusing on launching your course. OK.

Bekah Read (46:13.932)

Yes. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. So, but before that, I was doing, well, before I had kids, I was doing like one a week, but then I had kids and that was not.

Shannon Mattern (46:25.244)

one a week and what do you think you would want to do now?

Bekah Read (46:29.07)

I think two a month is great.

Shannon Mattern (46:32.338)

And is that what you want to, is this the offer that you want to be doing? Is the website in a day? Awesome. So you want to be selling two of these a month.

Bekah Read (46:36.142)

Yeah, yeah, I have a website in a week.

Shannon Mattern (46:44.744)

And then you also have your SEO course. Do you offer any SEO services at all or is it just the course?

Bekah Read (46:52.862)

know, desperate times call for desperate measures. So I used to say no to that and then currently yes. So I have a website.

Shannon Mattern (46:58.974)

Do you like it?

Bekah Read (47:03.15)

I no, but I can do it easily and I can charge 75 to $100 an hour, so I'm like, why not? But no, I don't love it.

Shannon Mattern (47:10.748)

Yeah. So is it like SEO strategy? Is it an ongoing service?

Bekah Read (47:17.518)

Well, have an ongoing maintenance that if people are like, they want SEO help, I would direct them to that. it's two hours a month and it's $200. And so I very rarely, I'd never promote that service. Like they would have to be pretty strategic to find it on my website. And so I only have like two clients currently that are doing something like that. And I don't promote.

Shannon Mattern (47:30.717)

Okay.

Shannon Mattern (47:42.046)

probably people who are like people who you already worked with and you've decided that you would do that for them.

Bekah Read (47:46.88)

One of them was and one just found me on Google, but yeah. Generally, no. Generally, I would like to do website a days to a month and I would, if I could have one core sale a month, I would be happy.

Shannon Mattern (48:00.714)

my gosh. Okay, so I think that this is so doable. Okay, here's, I'm so curious how this compare, if you're like, I've heard this all before.

Bekah Read (48:05.1)

Listen, this is what people tell me, but it hasn't happened yet, so...

Bekah Read (48:13.857)

Okay, let's hear it.

Shannon Mattern (48:16.692)

You have sold 50 website in a day's already. I would proactively, you're so good at outreach. You just did outreach to me. And I was like, this is like one of the best pitches I've ever gotten. It's a yes. I would proactively outreach to your past website in a day clients, ask them, you know, if they know anyone who is

Bekah Read (48:19.896)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Shannon Mattern (48:44.082)

wanting to build a website because you have open spots for more website in a day. And I would not worry about my social media, my YouTube or any of this anymore. And I would like strategically go all in on outreach marketing to fill your pipeline of website in a day clients. And then as you start talking to people and you make offers for

website in a day, one of the ways you could like incentivize their decision would be to gift them your SEO course that you created to say, hey, if you take me up on this next spot, you know, I'll, I'll roll in this SEO course so that you can make sure that you are getting, getting the most out of this website that I build for you. So that's something that you could do.

Because you said you don't like SEO strategy, I'm gonna say this strategy, but I also feel like you might not like it, but I'll just say it for our listeners in case they're like into it. We teach a strategy called package matrix. And when we teach like making offers, when you make an offer, always offer three options, a option that's anchored really high, high level of service, high level of customization, high level of strategy.

A mid-level, mid-priced offer, which is more of a, like, I'll give you the strategy, but you, I'll give you a custom strategy, but you do the work. And then a low end offer, which is already done. You have it. It's an SEO course. It's a productized service. And so.

the marketing would be SEO services for Squarespace sites and the offer would be fully done for you, custom strategy, ongoing service, at this price per month, but you have so much room to increase your prices, by the way, or low end, sell the course on its own or at the mid level, maybe it's a audit of their existing site, some just like you say like.

Shannon Mattern (51:02.814)

quick and dirty like keyword research, done is better than perfect. Let's just get it going. And also here's the course for you to continue on with this. And that could be a way that you make offers for SEO services, but pricing is positioning. So we would expect most of the people to take you up on that mid-level offer where you're just one and done with their site and then they're going on with the course. But I see so many people like you putting so much time, effort and energy into one too many marketing.

Bekah Read (51:11.596)

Yeah.

Bekah Read (51:21.934)

Yeah.

Bekah Read (51:33.208)

Hmm.

Shannon Mattern (51:33.605)

in a world that is so noisy.

Bekah Read (51:40.973)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (51:42.532)

that doing the type of outreach that you did to me to your current prospects, past clients, people that you know, and just planting a lot of seeds and asking for work instead of trying to get people to find you and come to you, I think could get you to sites a month in no time at all.

Bekah Read (52:00.674)

Yeah.

Bekah Read (52:05.026)

Yeah.

Yeah, I love that.

Shannon Mattern (52:09.0)

So I don't know if you've heard that before, but yeah. Yeah.

Bekah Read (52:12.558)

So variations, because again, I was like trying all the things, but I like, so what I had done, I did reach out to like probably 15 of my past website in a day clients that I really enjoyed. And I created a website page on my website that was just for them. And it had a list of some of my favorite, know, affiliate resources, but it also had a coupon, like even looked like a coupon for like, I think 10 % or 20 % off my ongoing services.

And the goal there, so I wasn't asking them for referrals. I was asking them for their services, because I enjoyed working them. So I think it would be strategic to do. I could still give them that website page that had all these, you know, free things. I think it even had access to, so at the end of my website in a day, they get access to my, not the course that I've been talking about, but of course I created just for website in a day clients that teaches them how to update their website, because it's not going to be perfect. So I gave that.

Shannon Mattern (52:49.214)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (53:09.278)

Brilliant.

Bekah Read (53:11.35)

course because it's newer. I used to like do a live training and then they would feel super overwhelmed at the end of the website day and so was like I need to change this. So that's when I created the course that was like how to edit your photo and then they clicked that little training. Anyway so I like sent them an email was like hey I created this course here's this website page but I think what you said was really smart instead pivoting and being like hey do you know people? That's probably a way smarter idea so I'm gonna try that. And then I with the SEO one

Shannon Mattern (53:37.544)

Yeah.

Bekah Read (53:41.036)

Yeah, you're kind of right. I'm like, meh, I bought SEO, but I think it could work in terms of like, my website in a day is 22.50, unless they have branding done. A lot of people don't have branding done. So that's why I price it that. If they have branding done, I give it to them for 18.50. So that's website in a day. And then my Squarespace course slash template, they do get a template, but it teaches them how to do Squarespace, is 6.97. But I don't have like a lower tier. So probably maybe I need to come up with a lower tier.

Shannon Mattern (54:10.086)

or a higher tier.

Bekah Read (54:12.718)

I like the way you think. This is my mindset issue right here. Can you tell? Okay, hi, over here.

Shannon Mattern (54:14.548)

A higher tier.

If you came up with a higher tier that you were like, I would love doing this, but I don't really believe anybody would buy it at this price. That's fine. Because you get to stay out of everybody's wallet and just make the offer anyway and let them decide what they want. That's kind of the whole point of the package matrix strategy. So think about for you with two little kids.

Bekah Read (54:38.38)

Yeah, that's true.

Bekah Read (54:42.392)

Okay.

Shannon Mattern (54:47.9)

What is sustainable for you to offer your website, like in the spirit of website in a day, that still is all of the same thing that like they're getting this. This is the thing. They're getting the same thing from you at every level, right? But at the high end, they're just getting like a more of you at the low end. You're giving them something you already created. That's best practices. That's going to get them exactly what they need. Same at the mid level. So what's like a

Bekah Read (55:08.493)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (55:17.172)

more, I wouldn't say more custom for you specifically to like deliver for them, but like is there a custom strategy or something that your brain can give them at the high end that your time does not have to give them that you could say, if you want me, if you want this from me, that's the, that's the thing. So,

Bekah Read (55:34.915)

that's a good tip.

Bekah Read (55:45.847)

Yeah, I'll to think of

Shannon Mattern (55:45.928)

We have a script called Dream Client Clone. I didn't mean for this to turn into a business coaching session, but I hope that you feel like this conversation has been valuable because I love hearing from people the reality of the ups and downs of going for a business.

Bekah Read (55:52.302)

I'm, you know, hopefully the listeners like this.

Bekah Read (55:59.629)

I do.

Shannon Mattern (56:15.73)

Like really going all in on building a business that's gonna work for our lifestyle and pivoting when it doesn't work out the way that we basically it's like wanted results or unwanted results. And it's that neutral. I made a decision that created unwanted results. Okay, now I get to figure out what to do next to create the results that I want. And so just back to like,

reaching out to everybody you know, and or especially your favorite clients and being like, you were my dream client, I want to find 10 more people like you. Do you know anyone who needs this service? And going all in on old school analog marketing styles, like, because nobody is doing it. And that's what's working. And so yeah.

Bekah Read (57:02.612)

Yeah, no, think that's so true. That's what's working now. Yeah, I agree. That is what I've started to realize. No, that's so smart.

Shannon Mattern (57:12.692)

I don't think your course is dead. I think your course is an asset and I think you're going to make so much more than $4,000 off this course, but it's just going to look different than maybe.

Bekah Read (57:23.758)

I mean, I have already made 4,000. I have sold that much worth. But when I think about the time I spent, that's where I'm like, I didn't get a return on my investment because it was too time. But I did sell worth 4,000.

Shannon Mattern (57:32.044)

Exactly. You're going to get that back and more. It's just going to look different than like the conventional wisdom of the online course marketing landscape. think you have so much value to add to your clients. I think you could go sell that course to every single 50 website in a day clients that you've worked with before and say, hey, I have this thing. I don't know if you'd be interested or.

Bekah Read (57:43.021)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (57:57.19)

Hey, I have, you know, so I think that there's so many ways that you can do it, but it's going kind of old school versus one to many in mass communications. So yeah, so good. So I know we are past time. I'm like, I have my next level mastermind call starting right now. I would, no, no, please, that's not you. It's me. like, I could talk about this for five more hours.

Bekah Read (58:04.044)

Yeah.

I hate.

Bekah Read (58:10.304)

I love that. That's what I'm going to implement. I love it.

Bekah Read (58:19.032)

Sorry.

Shannon Mattern (58:26.494)

Tell everybody about your course, because just from talking about you, I'm sure your SEO course is incredible, even though you have like hit this crossroads in where you want to put your time and what you want to sell. So where can everybody go to learn more about that? Connect with you, all of the things.

Bekah Read (58:38.647)

Yeah.

Bekah Read (58:42.7)

Yeah, so if you go to my website, yeah, Rebecca Recreative, I do spell my name a little strange, so she'll link it, but I have an SEO course, but I also have a free three day SEO, like that teaches my process training. So you can go through that. And then I also have a free 40 minute training that teaches you how to DIY a high converting website in a weekend. And that training, you know how these trainings work. We pitch at the end. So that training, the pitch at the end is my Squarespace.

course slash template, but either way, it's a great training to watch to just teach you like what's working in 2025. I go into SEO a little bit in that training as well and my process. So.

Shannon Mattern (59:20.478)

So good, everybody go get your hands on that course, speed up your process for building your own website, for your clients. Don't do what I did and ignore your SEO for four years, 10 years, and then have to go back and try to piece it all together again and optimize like hundred pages and whatever nonsense we're doing right now.

Take Becca's SEO course, yeah. No, please.

Bekah Read (59:50.024)

one more thing.

Sorry, because you have so many website designers in your audience, if you are interested in website in a day, I have, it's under $200 and I just give you my whole Dobsado workflow. So like you can basically just take it. I don't wanna call it a course. There is a little training in it, but it's not a course. I just give you all my resources and you just can take them and like, cause that's the big thing with website in a day, you need a system and a workflow. So it just teaches you my system, my workflow and gives you all the email templates I send. So if you're interested in that as a designer.

Shannon Mattern (01:00:02.973)

my goodness.

Shannon Mattern (01:00:09.054)

process.

Bekah Read (01:00:22.808)

We'll link it below too.

Shannon Mattern (01:00:24.466)

That is so generous and where can they go to get that? That's on your website as well.

Bekah Read (01:00:28.93)

Yeah, rebeccareacreativebackslashday-designer is where they can get that.

Shannon Mattern (01:00:33.754)

Amazing. We will put that in the show notes and we'll send it out when we send this podcast episode out and you're awesome. I'm so glad that I got to meet you and just knowing you and talking to you for this hour, you're going to come out on the other side of this fine, better than fine, truly. And I'm just excited for what's next for you. So

Bekah Read (01:00:43.297)

Yeah.

Bekah Read (01:00:58.318)

What's your answer?

Shannon Mattern (01:01:01.382)

You have to like reach out again in like a year and like, we need a follow up. We need a follow up. We need to know what happens.

Bekah Read (01:01:05.888)

Okay, I'll do it. I will let you, yes, we'll do it for sure.

Shannon Mattern (01:01:11.152)

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for being here.

Bekah Read (01:01:14.422)

Yeah, thank you so much.

Shannon Mattern (00:00.782)

you

Shannon Mattern (00:09.486)

you

you

Shannon Mattern (00:50.68)

Mellopress, developers of WordPress security and website management plugins, including WP Activity Log, WP2FA, and Mellopress Login Security. Google Mellopress to learn more. Worried about hacks, DDOS attacks, and malware affecting your WordPress site? Kinsta keeps your site safe with top-tier security and an up to 99.99 % uptime guarantee. Try it for yourself at Kinsta.com.

Hello there. Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Wherever you may be in the world. It is a live session on the page builder summit number eight and I am joined by Shannon Matorne. How are doing Shannon? I am doing great. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, you're really, really welcome. People get to see enough of me. They don't get to see enough of you. So I'm just going to do the briefest of introductions and then crack on. So just a couple of bits of housekeeping. We're broadcasting this to several different locations.

And the idea really during this Q &A is that you post questions if something that Shannon says piques your interest or you've got a, you know, you're curious about something, want an answer, pop it into the comments. And we have Dan in the background here who's collecting those up and scooping them up and we will put them on the screen if we have the time. So those questions, you can start putting them in right away if you wish. But the idea really is, I love the name of this, the make your sales process more chill.

Live Q &A with Shannon Matorne. So without further ado, Shannon, I'm gonna get off the screen and say, yeah, I hope it goes well and I'll see you at the other side. Amazing, Nathan. Thank you so much for inviting me back to the Page Builder Summit. This is one of my favorite events. I did prepare some slides for this session just to keep me on track, but please feel free.

to ask me any and all of your sales questions so that, you know, take advantage of this time to pick my brain all about sales. Because one of the things that we are all about at the Web Designer Academy is just making your sales process feel really authentic, really natural, instead of feeling like something that you just want to

Shannon Mattern (03:13.547)

avoid at all costs. And so I was thinking about like some of the core tenets and values that we have in at the Web Designer Academy when we're talking about our sales process. And so I wanted to share these with you and just break them down for you. And then please feel free to ask me any and all of your sales and pricing questions. I love answering those just very briefly.

I am a business pricing, marketing, sales, project management coach for web designers. I live in Columbus, Ohio in the United States, hosted the Profitable Web Designer podcast. And I've been doing this for over 10 years now, which are almost 10 years now, working specifically with web designers. It's my favorite thing to do. I can talk about sales for hours. So yeah, bring any and all of your questions.

I'm just going to talk about eight mindset shifts that you can consider and start adopting that will just make your sales process way less stressful, way less pressurey, make you not feel like sleazy or pushy or whatever, and really make your sales process feel like a natural extension of the work that you do with your clients. So first mindset shift, it's not about you.

invite versus impose, let them, permission versus pushy, options versus ultimatums, stay out of their wallet, expiration dates, and fortune in the follow-up. Those are some of the eight kind of core values that we bring to our sales process inside of our program. So I just wanted to walk you through those and help you maybe change the way that you think as you're going through the process of making offers to your clients.

to work with you. So the first mindset shift that I love talking about, this goes for your marketing and also your sales is that it's not about you. You're not selling yourself. You're not selling your skills. You're not selling the deliverables even of the project. It's all about your client and what the outcomes and results that they want, what they're able to create as a result of working with you.

Shannon Mattern (05:39.09)

It's all about like opportunity costs, right? If you've ever heard of the concept of opportunity costs, like what is it costing them in terms of time, money, capacity, mental, physical health to not move forward with this project and working with you minimizing that opportunity costs for them. when you can shift out of, I have to convince them

to that I'm good enough. I have to convince them that like I have enough experience or that my portfolio was good enough or all of these things. When you can shift out of making it that they're buying you, then it makes sales so much easier. You change the whole entire conversation and it becomes about what you can create for them together. And so way less pressure.

It feels way less gross to not be focusing on like, here's why I'm so awesome and here's why I'm the best person. A lot of that kicks up your imposter syndrome if you haven't dealt with that. A lot of the mind trashy stuff that people that use page builders to make processes go faster and easier.

when it's not about you or your skills or your time or the complexity and it's all about them and what they can create you, it just makes it so much easier to have the conversation. So point number one is it's not about you. My second thing that I love to remind people of when it comes to sales is like you're not imposing, you're just inviting.

Is it an imposition to get an invitation to an event? No, it's just a decision. Right? So like you receive an invitation in the mail, you're asked to RSVP, yes or no, it's like not an imposition to be asked the question. Right? And so that's what I want you to think about when it comes to your sales process, especially just like that initial consultation, you're having a conversation with someone, they mentioned that they might

Shannon Mattern (08:01.97)

like need some support. And your next question is, would you like to set up a consultation to talk about that? Or would you like to move forward with the project? would you introduce me to someone who could be a potential client? Like whatever that is, it's just an invitation. And you don't need to convince anyone. It's a simple ask. They have full free will to decide what their answer.

is. And because we always feel like we're imposing just by even asking, a lot of times we don't ask. And so I want you to shift the thought of this is me asking is an imposition. It's not it's an invitation, which leads me to the third, like, core tenant of shit, like making your sales more chill, let them decide, let them so if you've if you've

of Mel Robbins. She is a speaker and author, has a podcast talking about just lots of general life stuff, but her most recent book is called Let Them and it's just like, let people have their feelings, let people have their opinions, let people do what they're going to do. You don't have to try to control it all. You put the invitation in front of them, let them decide it's their choice. It doesn't mean anything about you.

We make other people's decisions means so much about us. We tell a lot of stories. And unless you got that specific feedback out of their mouth that, you weren't good enough, know, their choice to decline your invitation doesn't mean anything about you. Doesn't mean you've done anything wrong. It's about them. Let them have their opinion. That doesn't mean that you have to change.

Yourself sure there are things maybe you could optimize but when you just let go of needing to control it all it makes sales so much easier when you're not so attached because you're not making their every decision Mean that you're not good enough that you need more skills that your price was too high all of those things so My next favorite way to think about the sales process

Shannon Mattern (10:23.943)

is always asking for permission to take the next step versus feeling like you're pushing people to do something that they don't want to do because you're not asking for permission. So imagine you're on a consultation call with something you're learning more about their business and it comes time to like start talking about you and what you do. Ask for permission. So if you're like, would you like to hear more about how I can

Help you. They'll either say yes or they'll say no, I'm not interested. If they say yes, then you can let go of feeling like, they don't wanna hear this, like whatever your mind is doing. Ask for permission to take the next step. When you get to the point of talking about your pricing, would you like to hear options now? Like asking for permission strategically along the way.

helps make the sales process go so much smoother, so much more chill. If someone's not interested, you're giving them the opportunity to opt out of the conversation at any time. So then you can walk away from that sales process knowing that like everything that you shared with them is something that they were interested in hearing. And so you don't have to feel like, I'm talking too much. This or whatever goes on in your head, right? So always ask for permission.

to take that next step and it just makes it, the sales process so much more chill.

The other core tenant or core value that we teach at the Web Designer Academy is options are always better than ultimatums. We love giving options for working with us versus one choice and it's a yes or no. Choice is always better than no choice and it takes the pressure off of you when you're like, would you like to work with me, yes or no versus

Shannon Mattern (12:26.754)

how would you like to move forward from this set of options? And so that's just something that you can consider when it comes to sales feeling like so high pressure, you're like, I have to get the price right. I have to get everything exactly right because there's a lot at stake. It's a yes or no that I'm putting in front of them when you can put together, here are some different options for us to work together to accomplish this goal that you have.

Which one would you like to move forward with? Which one feels like it would be the best fit for you? And when you do that, you can, you just take the pressure off of having to like get everything so exactly right ahead of time, which makes us spend way too much time on proposals and, um, and try just like do a bunch of research and try to like guess a lot of things ahead of time. Um, when we're like,

I need to get it exactly right and get the yes. You take a lot of that pressure off and make the process so much more chill when you give options. This is my favorite, favorite thing to share with people is to stay out of your client's wallets. So my, one of my business coaches, I heard this from one of my business coaches, Mariah Cos and I always give her credit because people always say to me, like, I hear you say this all the time. I'm like, I didn't come up with this.

Someone had to tell it to me because I didn't realize I was doing this, where I was like worried about what other adults can and can't afford. And their finances are not your business or responsibility. It is not your job to save people money. It's your job to help your clients make more money. It's not your job to save them money. It's your job to help them make more money. And you can't do that when you're undercharging and over delivering.

and you literally do not know what their financial situation is. Even if they tell you what their budget is, that's just a starting point, right? Depending on what they want. And they might not be a match, and that's okay. But you don't have to try to keep your prices low or affordable or budget to get people to say yes to you.

Shannon Mattern (14:52.78)

us just it's their financial situation is none of your business. Your prices should be profitable and sustainable for you to deliver the level of service that you want to deliver with the number of clients that you can support. And you get to put those choices in front of people and not worry about their financial situation. Give them choices, let them make a decision. And it doesn't mean anything about you even if

They can't afford to work with you for whatever reason. Maybe it's too much of a stretch or they don't want, it's just not what they wanna do. That's still none of your business. You get to keep making offers to other people and you're allowed to run a profitable, sustainable web design business. So the other thing that we always talk about whenever you're making an offer is to put an expiration date on that offer.

Offers are not open-ended. How many of you have had people come back months later? I've even had people come back to some of our students years later and say, oh yeah, I know we talked a year and a half ago about this. I'm ready to move forward now. And they're expecting to pay the same price that you quoted a year and a half ago. Maybe you don't even offer that service anymore. And so...

a lot of people end up saying yes and doing that work for the price that they quoted like many, many months ago because they feel obligated to do that. And so I don't think that you are obligated to do that. I think that you can always, you absolutely could have a different conversation there, but what expiration dates help you do is like compel a decision, right? When you don't say this,

proposal's good for X number of days, this pricing's good, this is your deadline by which to let me know which option you're moving forward with. When you don't do that, then there's no reason for someone to make a decision. And then you think, I got ghosted, now I don't want to reach out, I don't want to feel like I'm pushy or desperate. And when you don't put an expiration date on a proposal,

Shannon Mattern (17:17.945)

then you get all weird about your follow up. And also you're just like not leading the client through the decision. And when you have an expiration date on the proposal, it's a way to like take control of the whole process. And so always put expiration dates on any offers, any proposals so that you can take control of the process and not have things come like these zombie projects come back.

a year later, but also it makes your follow-up so much easier. So when you have an expiration date on your proposal and you send it out to your prospect and you let them know, here's how long this proposal is good for, then when you haven't heard from them in however many days, it makes it so much easier to just follow up and say, hey, just wanted to check in and remind you that this proposal expires

Will you be moving forward with this project? Yes or no? Which option would you like to choose? Would you like me to hold the date? Whatever, whatever that is. And so you may have heard the concept that the fortune is in the follow up. And that's because so many people don't follow up. Following up positions you as a professional. It builds trust when it's done in a really

when it's done in the right way, right? There's follow-up that can come across as pushy, stockery, whatever, but when you have a whole end-to-end process that is designed for follow-up to be built in, then it positions you as like, this person knows how to run a project and get deadlines met and all of those things. And coaching a client to a decision one way or another is...

part of that process. And so it really positions you as a professional and you will book more projects if you follow up and compel a decision rather than letting someone just not make a decision. Because we all know this, it's so much easier to just defer decisions, right? And so when you have expiration dates and you follow up, then you don't allow people to defer decisions. And it's all just very like natural part of the process. This is how it goes. The sky is blue. So

Shannon Mattern (19:42.497)

When you do all of these things and you just shift from thinking that it's about you, that you're imposing, that people's opinions of you are going to determine whether you're successful or not, that you're pushy, that you're giving people ultimatums, that you're worried about their money, that if you

that you're lying if you say that there's a timeline on this decision and you don't follow up because you wanna be pushy or you don't wanna be pushy, you can see where that's like just a very pressury, not chill at all sales process that would make you not wanna have more consultations, not wanna market yourself, not wanna put yourself out there when the sales process feels gross. If the sales process just felt like, this is actually just like a project.

that I'm leading someone through and here's how this project runs of meeting someone to becoming a client and it was as formulaic as building a website with a page builder was, then it just becomes so much more chill and second nature versus the pressurey, imposturey thing that sales can sometimes feel like if you are one of the

many, many, many web designers that hate sales and just wish people would just like book projects with them without having to talk to them. So that's what I wanted to share with you in this session today. Eight mindset shifts to just help you make your sales process more chill. And I would love to hear any questions that any of you might have for me about sales or pricing or

anything that I can answer during our time today. So Farah's question is, what is the best way to talk about pricing without undercutting yourself? This is so good. So I think when you say undercutting yourself, I think that means like, the way I think of undercutting yourself is like, I'm gonna

Shannon Mattern (22:09.022)

I'm gonna like be the one to offer a price first. And what if I offer like too low of a price that I could have maybe charged more? I think there are a few ways to do that. And I just wanna preface this by saying like, this is what we teach inside of our program. There are many, many different ways to do things and you get to find the one that works for you. But what I say is, we advise that you don't put starting at pricing.

on your website if you don't want to undercut yourself. So a lot of times what I see is web designers will say prices start at $1,000 for whatever and then the price goes up as things add to the project. And there's a concept called anchoring, price anchoring, which means the first price someone hears is the price that every subsequent price is compared to in their mind. so if you think about

starting at is a low anchor, a low price anchor. And so if your prices increase from there, now you're creating the feeling of prices rising. And I can assure you that every single person in this room does not like the feeling of prices rising. You can think about, you know, anything going on in the world today, when we feel like prices are rising, things are getting more expensive. We

Primarily feel like okay now I have less resources because prices are going up so I need to conserve and hoard and protect the resources that I have and so when you when you put starting at pricing on Your website or your packages or whatever and then prices go up even though values going up even though delivers deliverables are going up you're actually like kind of triggering a primal sense of reduced resources in somebody and

It makes them want to figure out how they can get like the most amount of things for the least amount of money, which then like moves them into price shopping and going to talking to other designers or figuring out how they can do this cheaper. Not for everyone, but for a lot of people. And so the best way to talk about pricing without undercutting yourself is exactly what we talked about in the page builder summit is I think paid discovery is a

Shannon Mattern (24:36.738)

fantastic way to talk about pricing without undercutting yourself because you're taking an initial step that's paid. You're using the time to put together a very customized to the person proposal that speaks to not deliverables, but results and outcomes. And then your

putting together, you're giving them options of a price that you're willing to do that for. And we always talk about anchoring high with your pricing instead of anchoring low. So here's everything that I could do for you and here's the price. If you want less things, the price goes down. If you want less things, the price goes down. So I think that that's like the best way to talk about pricing without undercutting yourself is to just not anchor low and to have those

conversations with people individually about pricing and not say starting at or whatever, or even what's your budget? Like I wanna know what your goals are, not what your budget is. And I'll tell you what I can do for you to get you to your goals. So I have a lot of thoughts about that, but let's move on. If there are any other questions, we can move on to the next one.

Kamas says, think my biggest challenge is how to upsell maintenance retainer after doing a build or ad hoc work. My suggestion for that situation is one, make sure your project, you have a clear project close email at the end of the project that gives them choices. Remember how I said like options versus ultimatums?

So at the end of a project, I'm going to send an email that's like, this project is complete. No more work will be done on these things. Here are options for working together going forward. And here's the maintenance retainer agreement, the maintenance retainer package.

Shannon Mattern (26:54.773)

than just saying there are two ways we can work together going forward to maintain your website ongoing. And you can let them know of some of the common things that need done after a build or an ad hoc work is complete and say, you know, clients in this situation typically need these things ongoing. There are two ways we can do that. You can get on this retainer package and here's what all that includes. Or if you're not on a retainer package,

here's what it looks like to book additional work with me. And typically you'll differentiate those to make it so that they can't just, if they're not on retainer, they can't get on your schedule on demand if they just like want a project from you. And so you'll differentiate those so that it's more advantageous to them to just get on your retainer package. But ultimately,

Let them make the decision. But in order to let them make the decision, there needs to be like a clear end to the project. Here's what you, what people in your situation need going forward. Here are your options for that. And then asking the question, which one would you like to move forward with? Like question mark, which one would you like to move forward with? Assume that they're going to choose one or the other.

and always just ask that question. A lot of times people make the mistake of saying, let me know if you need, if you want to move forward with that instead of that ends in a period, end with a question to get a response to compel a response to compel a decision. Great question. Alexia, I have a problem with being in other people's wallets, literally trying to save them money, but knowing my services can have 10X the ROI. Alexia, would you

Shannon Mattern (28:53.093)

If they were hiring another designer, would you pay for that for them? You probably wouldn't. But when you try to save them money, you're effectively paying for their website out of your own pocket. So when you're like, ooh, I wanna charge them 10,000, but I don't think they can afford that, so I'm gonna charge them 2,000.

Basically what you're saying is like, let me cover that other 8,000 for you. If you wouldn't literally do that in real life, like don't do it by discounting your pricing. And so what I want to invite you to do is hold your clients as high and capable and you don't have to save your clients money. That's not your job. They're adults, they're business owners.

It's their job to like run their business, make money, manage their finances. It's not your job to save people money. It's your job to charge profitably and sustainably so that you can deliver at a high level to those people and just believe that they are capable of like paying for what they want. So I know that the 10,000, 2,000 is a big like difference, but

Sometimes it's as little as like, I wanna charge 3,000, but I'm gonna charge two. Same thing, it's like you being like, here, let me give you $1,000 to cover that for you. If you wouldn't do that in real life, like if you literally wouldn't give them $1,000, hold the line, you'd be surprised at what people are capable of when that's the decision that's put in front of them. Great question.

Shannon Mattern (30:43.407)

Sam, what if you're having a good sales call and you feel like you can close, should you still offer paid discovery? This is a very nuanced answer. Paid discovery is a really good tool for you to pre-frame the value of working with you. If you're adept at doing that on the sales call and you feel like, yeah, I'm definitely not gonna undercharge for this,

I feel confident in my pricing. I feel like I have communicated the value of this project. Well, I have enough information to connect to connect that then there and paid discovery. The step just doesn't seem necessary to the project. Yeah, go ahead and like close close, right? I would invite you to just test out paid discovery in your business if you haven't done that already and see if it makes a difference.

in terms of are you able to sell the same project at higher prices than maybe you were before? Most web designers are undercharging and over delivering. And when you go through the paid discovery process, you sell yourself on the value and you tend to be like, actually, this is going to be like, I'm going to raise the price on this because I see the value to the value to them and the opportunity. So

It's not always, like I said, it's a nuanced answer and it depends on like what your goals are and all of that. But if one of the things that you're trying to do is increase your prices, adding a paid discovery step in even if you know you can close at your current prices could help you like charge higher prices and increase your prices. But if you're like, no, actually I'm good on my prices, I'm confident.

and I can move this to a sale? Close the sale. Get started. There's no wrong answer there. Great question.

Shannon Mattern (32:50.722)

Ellie, what part of the sales process do most freelancers over complicate? This is such a good question.

Shannon Mattern (33:02.886)

I would say like just even getting leads generated would be like the part that they most overcomplicated, like the marketing piece of the sales process. Now I know marketing and sales are two completely different things, but you do need people to talk to in order to get consultations and to like have a sales conversation. And so what we see is people like over-complicating

to the point where they're just not doing anything. The marketing process, like, I have to be on social media and I hate that, or I have to create content for SEO and I don't have time for that, or all my referrals come from word of mouth and I hate just waiting for that to happen, or I should be doing something different with my marketing, excuse me, that.

than what I'm currently doing. And so what I see most freelancers over-complicating is that they are using the strategies that they build for their clients in their own business and thinking like marketing takes so much time. But what the reality of the situation is, is that your marketing is not like...

high volume, high traffic marketing. You actually don't need to use high volume, high traffic marketing strategies like social search and content marketing or paid advertising to get the number of clients that you need to meet your revenue goals. But I see web designers putting a lot of time, effort and energy into high traffic, high volume marketing strategies.

when they could just be spending way less time on low traffic marketing strategies like relationship building, being proactive in nurturing relationships with people they know, proactive in building their network, proactive in just asking for referrals, inviting people to sales conversations. And so that's like the biggest.

Shannon Mattern (35:19.76)

opportunity I see for simplification is to untie in your mind the idea that because your clients need high traffic in a lot of cases, high traffic, high volume marketing strategies like SEO and paid ads and all of that, and you're building things that can support the way that they're marketing, that you have to market the same way, otherwise you're not legit. Totally not the case.

You don't have to use the same marketing strategies that you build for your clients to get clients. So yeah, that's the that's the number one. Verneet asks, how do you price paid discovery? We teach a flat fee for the paid discovery and we don't want you spending a ton of time on it. know, no, a flat fee that you then credit to the price of the project.

a very systematic process that I talked about in the session that I did for the page builder summit. So we say start at $500 for paid discovery, or you could use the metric of like about 10 % of the overall project price. Your average project price, once you start offering it and you're like, oh, my average project price is 10,000.

I'll do a thousand for paid discovery or if it feels better to you to just stay at 500 so you can get a lot of yeses on paid discovery, you can do that, but not hourly because we don't want you selling your time ever. Great question.

Alexia, what's your opinion on having a quicker discovery call and then a second call to go over the proposal with them versus a sales call to proposal to email follow ups? So what's your opinion on having a quicker discovery call than a second call to go over the proposal versus a sales call to proposal to email follow ups? I don't think I have an opinion on that. I think that both of those work.

Shannon Mattern (37:34.449)

I think as long as, I think it's just gonna be like your comfort level of having like saying pricing on a call, a lot of people get weird when it comes to say the numbers, right? So sometimes like we have our students just do a loom video of them walking through the proposal verbally and put that video in an email and send that to their clients so that

they until they get comfortable like having those conversations in real time. I do think it is important to hear you verbally lead your client through the proposal so that you can point out the key pieces and like lead them through here are the results, here are the outcomes, here's the value and paint that picture for them because if you just send a proposal

and you don't walk them through the proposal, every single person opens that proposal and just goes to the wherever the price is and looks at the price and you miss the opportunity to pre-frame the value for them. So whether it's a live call or a video of you walking through the proposal, I just recommend that you lead them through the proposal. So it's not necessarily about whether it's live or like asynchronous.

I think it's more about you just making sure that you're leading them through the information in a way that's like showing them the value versus focusing on the price. Yeah, so that's my opinion. Juno, how do you deal with imposter syndrome when pitching your work? So I coach web designers on this all of the time. They think I can't charge that much because I'm self-taught.

I can't charge that much because this is my second client. I can't charge that much because I don't have a portfolio. I can't charge that much because what if I don't know everything ahead of time? There's a thousand reasons why you don't think that you can charge that much. You're worried that the client is thinking things about you, that you're actually thinking and believing about yourself. And so we say a few key things.

Shannon Mattern (39:59.241)

to our students is that one, it's not my job to know everything ahead of time. It's my job to be the one to figure things out and to be the problem solver. I'm not being paid to like know it all. I'm being paid to deliver the result. So if you believe you can deliver the result and you know you can deliver the result, then that's what you're being paid to do, not to already know all the things ahead of time. And so...

You have to just become aware of the thoughts that you think about yourself. Decide whether or not you want to believe those things. And I know it sounds so simple, but not everything you think is true. You don't have to believe everything you think. And if you're a person of integrity, which I'm sure everybody here is,

You know that you're not going to fake it till you make it or a lie about what you can do, you know, or take someone's money when you have like no ability or intention of delivering. So just assume that you have integrity and you have to believe that working with someone like you is going to benefit them more than not working with someone like you.

And so we can always all learn more skills. Everything changes all the time. Nobody knows everything. But are you the kind of person that's willing to communicate, follow through on deadlines? There's so much more to it than just I know how to build the thing to running a successful project. So.

Yeah, I would just invite you to notice all of the things you're thinking, decide whether or not you want to continue to believe those things. What else might be true? And who are you really at your core? Like, who are you really? And your clients are lucky to work with someone like you. If you're even worried about being an imposter, like the people who are ripping off clients aren't even worried about being an imposter. So yeah, that's that's my advice there.

Shannon Mattern (42:24.297)

Leah says, what if a client says that's too expensive? My first thought is like, that's fine with me if a client says that I'm too expensive. I would say I totally understand. And if you have a budget in mind that you're working with, I'd be happy to let you know what I can do for that price if you want to.

But a lot of times just even holding your value, it's like holding your value is a powerful thing. And so if a client's like, that's too expensive, you can be like, I totally understand if anything changes, I'd love to, you know, this proposal is good for seven days. Like, just because a client says that's too expensive, doesn't mean you have to lower your price to accommodate them. Now you might want to

be like, let me know what your budget is, how can we adjust this? What can I take away to make this work for you? You may decide to offer a payment plan. If that is profitable and sustainable for you to do, it doesn't work for everybody. But also, can you just allow yourself to be too expensive without believing that no one can afford you? And when you can stand in that, it's a really powerful place to be and you will.

If it doesn't cause you to stop and believe something about yourself that's not true, you'll go on to find the clients that are willing to pay that because you're not too expensive. So, great question.

Ronita says, it's not my job to help you save money. I think I'm going to tattoo that on my hand. I think you should. And when you do, please send me a picture. I love that. So good. I need a coffee mug. We're going to make some Web Designer Academy swag that says that. So good. Adam, thank you so much. I appreciate that. I've just jumped in, Shannon. I hope that's OK. I've jumped in because I think we've probably reached a

Shannon Mattern (44:38.089)

But how the amount of time that we've got for your session. I hope that's okay. Yeah, that was great. There was absolutely tons in there and very well done for managing to think so cogently on your feet. That's pretty remarkable. I could not do that. Do you want to just give us a quick little, well, not bio, but do just want to tell us where we can find you, you know, the, the elevator pitch, if you like, so that people watching this call live, but also after it's finished over on the page builder summit website so that they can find you. Yeah.

The best place to go to find us is webdesigneracademy.com. Our Profitable Web Designer podcast is linked up there. We're doing our Profitable Web Design Business roadmap training on Monday. And if you go to webdesigneracademy.com forward slash roadmap, you can sign up for that. It's a free training where I'll dig even deeper into the concepts that we talked about today. And just the podcast, webdesigneracademy.com forward slash podcast.

We dive so deep into all of these conversations. And our Web Designer Academy program is for women web designers who struggle with undercharging, over-delivering, imposter syndrome, setting boundaries, all of the things. So it's for people who like already have the skill of web design, but need to learn the skill of running a profitable, sustainable web design business. That's what we do. And I love talking about.

like many, many more hours, strategies, systems and processes to help you like implement the concepts that I talked about today in your business. So webdesigneracademy.com forward slash roadmap and also webdesigneracademy.com forward slash podcast. Also just one other thing to mention Shannon being a featured speaker at this page for the summit. Shannon's presentation, which went live Monday entitled the paid discovery playbook part two, how to sell paid discovery and book higher paying clients.

One of the benefits of being a featured speaker at this event is that that's going to be available to you all week. So there's no 48 hour embargo on that. That'll be available to you. If you go to the schedule page, it is literally at the top. It's one of the first things. so yeah, pagebillersummit.com forward slash schedule to find that. It only remains for me to say thank you so much, Shannon. Thanks for joining us today and dropping all of your knowledge. I'm sure we all really appreciate it. Thank you.

Shannon Mattern (47:03.975)

Thank you so much for having me. You've done an incredible job on the summit and I'm just honored to get to be a part of it. So thank you. I'm very, very, very lucky to have you. Thanks so much. Take care. Bye bye. Bye.

Shannon Mattern (47:27.337)

you

Shannon Mattern (47:33.533)

you