#111 – The True Value of Branding with Mike Brevik of BrandRetro & Cyberdogz

Shannon Mattern (00:02.068)

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Profitable Web Designer podcast. Today I am joined by Mike Brevik. He's the host of the brand retro podcast and founder of the digital marketing agency Cyberdogz. And Mike has worked with some iconic brands. He's obsessed with marketing and with helping his clients create loyal followings. And I'm super excited to dig into all things marketing and branding and business with him today. So Mike, thank you so much for being here.

Can you share a little bit more with our listeners about you and what you do?

Mike Brevik (00:35.724)

Yeah, thank you for having me. And yeah, a little bit about me. I'm kind of headquarters out of Minnesota. We work with clients all over the country. And like you mentioned, I'm very passionate about marketing and branding and kind of helping, you know, helping clients succeed and find kind of that niche and that, that specialty about themselves that we can kind of extract from and build on and kind of take their marketing to the next level. So it's exciting and it's fun.

obviously to see other people win.

Shannon Mattern (01:07.768)

I have so many questions for you about how you find that unique special thing with your clients. But before we get there, I would love to know a little bit more about your journey and your business journey and like your origin story. So how did you get to, I know it's probably a long story, but how did you get to today where you're hosting this podcast, you have the agency, what are the early days looking like for you?

Mike Brevik (01:28.081)

Ahem.

Mike Brevik (01:37.494)

Yeah. You know, I, when I first started out, it was a, I mean, it's a long time ago, but it was a lot more organic. I had started out my career kind of wanting to be an illustrator and a cartoonist. And I mean, that was kind of where I was kind of heading towards. And when I got my first job, I was working for a very small ad agency down in South Texas and was doing a lot of that kind of work. And it didn't take long, you know, maybe six, nine months somewhere in that timeframe where.

I started to kind of, it started to sink in the, the, the, the criticism and the different, you know, the aspects of the job where I'm like, so I'm not just going to draw pictures all day and they're not just going to love everything I do. And it, you know, it started to really sink in that this was a job and I had clients to appease. And, I kind of shifted at that point thinking, cause the whole drawing thing and the artistic part of it was pretty personal to me. So it was like, I don't know if I can kind of take it on the chin here for

20, 30 years like this, because there's a lot that goes into that. And for me, when I pivoted more to focus on graphic design, it wasn't, I mean, not that it's not personal to me, but it wasn't as personal as drawing was or the artistic, you know, organic piece was. So at that point, I really shifted into kind of graphic design mode and really started studying on graphic design. not that I hadn't done that before, but my goal was always to be this

cartoonist and this illustrator, that was the goal. And when I kind of made that shift, I just kind of pivoted hard and really started to kind of hone my skills from a graphic design perspective. from there I spent, I left that agency after a couple of years and then I worked in printing for nine years, which was a completely different education. did, you know, I honed and kind of worked deep into my graphic design skills, but I also learned how to set up the projects correctly, all the file.

formats. And at that time it was, it just was a lot more difficult really, because there wasn't the internet and there wasn't all these different things and these tools and AI and like, even the softwares themselves, like what we see today in Photoshop was a fraction of, you know, back then. And so really kind of learning all those mechanics from kind of the ground up being in the printing industry for nine years really

Mike Brevik (04:02.796)

You know, just taught me a lot about not only the process, but how to set it up properly and, you know, kind of cut my teeth on all the aspects that I didn't know going in. And during that time, websites and different things were starting to pop up and the internet became a thing. And I was self -taught in, basically web design at that point. but it was all kind of front end stuff. So Dreamweaver, Adobe page mill, you know, stuff that was kind of drag and drop. Cause I, I just didn't have the.

the technical background to be a true developer, but I'd gotten to a point where I was, kind of hit my head on the ceiling as far as my knowledge goes. And I knew things were possible, but I didn't know how they were possible. So I would try to work with developers and some different things on, on projects. And of course they would give me whatever answer they gave me. And I don't want to say they were lying to me, but I didn't know any different. So they would tell me what could or could not be done. And I'm like, okay, sounds good. So.

I kind of knew there was a gap there and I'm like, okay, so the only way for me to bridge that gap is I got to know at least some of what they know. So at that point, I actually went back to school for programming and, kind of learned more of the technical backend piece. I, just to kind of recap, I went from illustrator to graphic design, to web design, to kind of learning backend programming. And at that point it was, you know, PHP, JavaScript, HTML, all those things. And I hated it. mean, I.

I did okay. I learned it, but I had no intentions of being a backend developer. was just, just for me to educate myself was really the only goal. but once I completed that, I left the printing world and got kind of brought into the retail world and my corporate, kind of journey that lasted about a decade. And I got to utilize all those skills at once within a marketing department. And I got to work with large teams of people and we were building websites and

you know, basically digital solutions within e -commerce and leading teams of people and, and, know, everything from the inception of social media to, you know, all kinds of different forms of marketing. were working with outside agencies and it just kind of all came together, you know, during that time. But luckily, and it sounds like almost like, yeah, that was really genius the way that came together, but there was no genius behind it. was just.

Shannon Mattern (06:24.992)

you

Mike Brevik (06:28.672)

It's just the way it happened and I'm lucky that it happened the way it did. But once I got through all that, I was able to kind of let all that marinate and work together within that corporate space. I just got a full range of understanding as to how it all worked, how they all plug into each other, kind of what you need, what gaps typically tend to appear in these types of scenarios.

And I just got a really broad understanding, not only from the creative side, but just the marketing and front end side as well. So after a little over a decade in, econ or, sorry, in corporate world retail, I just, I was just ready for a new challenge. And I, I, you know, kind of hit some stumbling blocks in my career to the point where I kind of had to look back in the mirror and kind of think, well, how did I get here in the first place? Like, how did I get off track? How did I.

Like how did I get here? And really for me it was, just, at that point in my career, I was so far from doing creative things. I was in leadership roles and I was, I just, I wasn't having fun like that anymore. So when I really reflected on it, that's kind of what the, what I came to understand is well, creativity and fun and you know, drawing pictures is really what set me out on this course. So after 20 years,

How did I get so far off track and can I get back there? You know, that's the question. So when I left the corporate world or became unemployed or self -employed or however you want to look at it, I started Cyber Dogs and my goal was to just get back to having fun. And I kind of wanted to be creative again, whatever that looked like. I mean, I knew kind of where I was heading and what I wanted to do with it. But when you start with a blank canvas, you really don't know. So I just...

kind of took the leap and decided that, you if a lot of other people do this, I don't see why I can't. So that was kind of as far as I had gotten in my thought process. And yeah, I mean, that's a very abridged version, but yeah, that journey happened over the course of 20 years and it turned out great, but obviously a lot of pivot points in there as well.

Shannon Mattern (08:42.344)

I can relate to so many of the milestones on your journey and the thread that I was kind of getting from everything that you shared. And you can tell me if this resonates is that your vision was maybe bigger at the time than what your current situation was. Like I think of when you're like, okay, I was just doing what the developers were telling me I could do. And I don't know that they were lying to me, but I'm like,

maybe there's something more to this. I can relate to just being like, I wanna be in control of this. I have a bigger vision. asked, I want to collaborate, but I'm also like, okay, but also get out of my way. I'm going after this next thing.

Mike Brevik (09:30.518)

Right. Well, and this was, you know, this was at the time, but I was always stifled by what the current environment would allow. And like, even when you went out, cause I, I'm a reader too. And like, so I would go out and find books, but like I'd look at the book and okay, the book was published two years ago. A lot, a lot happens in two years. So what am I supposed to do with this? So like, that was a huge stumbling block for me. And the only way to

Shannon Mattern (09:38.174)

Yeah. Yes.

Mike Brevik (09:57.568)

At least expedite the process was for me to kind of take some of that upon myself to just, got to dig in here and figure out how to do this. And if nothing else to give me at least the tools to push back. Because I mean, it's for anybody who's worked with a very high end developer, they're tough to argue with because I don't know what they know. So it's like, it's kind of like you're a little kid again. And it's like, okay, like, I guess I just have to take your word for it. And

That's not fun when you're trying to push boundaries and do things.

Shannon Mattern (10:29.216)

Yeah, I think stifled is probably like the word I can relate to most. You know, in my corporate career, I was like 15 years in and I'm like, wait, is this it? Is this what I worked for, for all of this red tape, this bureaucracy, this monotony, this, you know, I think there's something more out here. like, like you said, other people

do this and could I possibly do this? then you do it. You look back and you're like, look at everything I've learned along the way and maybe I could take this and make this work. So you decide to leave corporate and go out on your own. How did you get your first clients?

Mike Brevik (11:19.992)

So I'm just going to add one thing in there because you actually just made me think of it when you were saying this. So I grew up in a small town and I'm a classic car guy and my first car was a 67 Mustang. And I remember like always hearing the old guys talking about, yeah, I had this car and I never should have sold it. And like you hear those conversations like all the time. And as a kid, I just I'm like, I'm never going to sell my car. I'm never going to like I'm not going to be that guy. And

I never did. still own that same car. And when I got into my career, I met all kinds of people in marketing and in different aspects that said, you know, I used to be a designer, but then I just quit being creative and now I'm a leader. And I used to do like I used to draw and paint, but now I don't do that. And that's that same thing kind of clicked in my head during that time that like I'm turning into one of those guys and

If I don't do something about it, I'm going to have that regret. I'm going to like basically like the talent that I, you know, procured over the course of a lifetime, I would have just wasted it. And for me, like that was kind of the wake up call where I need to, I need to think about this and decided if I really want to give up on that. And, sorry, I wanted to throw that in there, but back.

Shannon Mattern (12:41.618)

No, that's, yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up because it's all, and it's also just like, and it's so much more valuable and can be more valuable to more people when it's kind of like unboxed from the situation that you're in and you can have such a bigger impact too. So it's like, I don't know. I very much resonate with like.

You're at a crossroads. Do I want to be that guy who wishes he would have done things differently or do I want to actually go for this? Yeah, that's awesome.

Mike Brevik (13:18.028)

Yeah. Yeah. So it, it, kind of, you know, it kind of put me in a situation to kind of call myself out on it, which then I chose to, to take that leap, but to get those first clients, I had, you know, it was interesting because I had made a small shift at the end of that corporate, stint where I went from one large retailer to another. And I was at that second retailer for probably, eight, nine.

10 months somewhere in there. But it was also very validating because when I left my kind of that decade long experience, when you're in the corporate world, you're only you're only kind of fed the compliments and you're fed the approvals and you're you're kind of you're kind of governed in a way like, like we're gonna throw you kudos and we're gonna rise you up the ranks and we're gonna reward you when we feel it's appropriate. But beyond that, we're gonna keep pushing you we're gonna keep

our thumb on your head, we're going to keep doing the things that we need to do so that you don't get too cocky or whatever it is. And I didn't really realize that when I was in the thick of it. But after I left, lot of the relationships that I was in in corporate were very cyclical, which what I mean by that is, like once a year, twice a year, whatever the pattern was, or the cadence was, that's when I would meet with these certain clients or these big brands like Nike or whatever it was.

So when I left, obviously I left in the middle of that cycle. So when those things started to come back around and they would show up and go, where's Mike, where did he go? And that kind of a thing. I was gone. So when they reached out to me separately and after the fact to say, Hey, we heard you left your position. We're really bummed about it. We'd love to stay connected. Or in some cases they would reach out to me and say, is there any chance we could work with you separately or on the side?

And when that started to happen, you know, in the six, eight, nine months after I had left, not only was it kind of feeding me opportunities, but it was my confidence was going through the roof because I was like, wait, like I just, never, I felt like a spoke in the wheel, like big time when I was in that role. And now I'm feeling like, okay, now I'm maybe I'm more capable or maybe I'm more worthy of some of this stuff that I even thought I was.

Mike Brevik (15:40.202)

So when I got the opportunity to reconnect and work with these brands as a solo Panora, whatever I was at the time, it was really validating and it really kind of expedited this entrepreneurship inside me. So those were actually my first couple clients. I was working, kind of doing some consulting and some different things on the side for some of these clients that had followed me into this new, new journey of mine. And.

they were actually not only working with me directly, but actually making referrals. Like, Hey, we got people that they could use your help. And all of a sudden I had kind of a mass six, seven clients that I was kind of working with on the side, just as a, you know, just everybody in this industry freelances to some degree. I was freelancing with these guys to the point where I just couldn't keep up. And then that's when I had to make the decision of, do I completely walk away from this career, this corporate life?

and do this or do I give up this? Do I give up the side work? Because at this point I just can't keep doing both. And that was kind of the major crossroads that pushed me into starting my own business. So I did start my business with, you know, like I said, six, seven clients, because I already kind of were working with them. But when I made that leap and started like that first day, it's weird because you don't know what to do with yourself. I'd I'd been

getting up and getting ready and driving to work since I was, I don't know, 14, 13, 14 years old somewhere in there. And to wake up that first day, and I'm a morning person and that kind of thing anyway, but I had nothing to do. I'm just like, well, what should I do right now? Should I go fire up my laptop or would I just hang for a while? what do I, what do I hustle at? I don't know what to, I don't know what the pattern is.

so it was weird. It took me a couple of weeks to really figure it out. And I actually had, a guy invited me to a networking thing and I'm like, I don't even know what, what's a net, what do you do? yeah, he explained it. And I'm like, that doesn't sound like a good, okay. Well, I'll go, I'll go hide. have nothing better to do. go. So I started going to networking meetings and

Mike Brevik (18:03.254)

You know, I tried to get as much value as I could out of them, but that's kind of how it started. Like I, I really, I just didn't know what to expect. I didn't know what entrepreneurship looked like. I didn't know where to, you know, kind of like the thing I don't know what to do with my hands. It was, it was like that. I just, I just took off on it, you know,

Shannon Mattern (18:22.528)

I my first day, it was, I had like left my day job. I made it so it was like January 2nd. So I got all of my like benefits from being there for 10 years or whatever. So I had like a very specific end date to get like my full 401k or whatever that was. And it was January 2nd was my first day of being.

self -employed and I went and I got a massage that morning at like 9 a And so I'm sitting in rush hour traffic, but I'm like, I'm on my way to go get a massage today. And then I get to like go home and I don't have anything on my calendar and all of these people are going to work. And this is like the best day ever. then, know, and then of course, after that, you're like, and

Now there's no paycheck coming in and now I'm responsible for, well, I got on my husband's insurance, but like now I don't have benefits and now this is all on me. And then I went, I personally went into straight hustle mode and I just like ground for a couple years. So how was that? What was that experience like for you? There was like this double sided coin for me, like the full freedom, but then like

a little bit of undercurrent of like fear and terror on the other side.

Mike Brevik (19:43.288)

Yeah. So I, I had went into it with, you know, I had paid off as many bills as I could and I had financial I had financially kind of given myself 90 days. Like if I don't do anything, if I produce nothing, I have 90 days. So if I'm a complete failure, I have 90 days. That's that was the best I could do. But I knew I knew that wasn't going to happen because it took me a day or two to kind of settle in. And then I just went

Shannon Mattern (19:50.546)

for sure.

Shannon Mattern (20:00.761)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (20:11.178)

Yeah.

Mike Brevik (20:13.432)

crazy for good or bad. So like when I went to like networking meetings and, and they're explaining to me, you know, you go in these coffee networking things and I'm like, okay, what are you doing at noon? What are you doing at one? What are you doing at one 30? And I'm, and I just, I started just creating busy -ness. Like I just created chaos and busy -ness and started filling my calendar with every opportunity possible, but at the same time managing my

Shannon Mattern (20:15.53)

Right.

Mike Brevik (20:42.24)

my six or seven clients that I had, because I'm like, well, I can't lose these. I just have to layer these other ones on top. And then the further I got into it from week two to week three to week four, then it started to become more of an infrastructure kind of thing where now I need scheduling tools to manage my calendar. And then I need

Cause I didn't have any of that stuff thought out when I started. And then I started layering in those pieces as to how to manage my busyness because I had really made myself very, very busy. Like I was back to working, you know, 60, 70 hours a week. was just within different context. So yeah, inside of, I don't know, two to three weeks, I'm not even saying I was on the right path, but I had cultivated a very busy path for myself. And then I was just.

kind of riding that train month over month and really just working it. And to say I had a clue is, mean, that'd be generous. Like I had no idea.

Shannon Mattern (21:46.342)

me too. I'm just like, okay, I got all of these clients on the side at my day job who are like, hey, do you do any like, vendors that I was working with that had other clients that maybe needed the same thing I was doing. So when I left, I had clients. But yeah, it just felt like

What's interesting now is like, I know I was like doing the right things to get clients, but I didn't know that I was doing the right things. Like I'm meeting people, I'm talking to them. I'm curious. I'm building relationships. I'm asking them questions. I'm seeing, you know, where I can add value and talk to them and then, you know, letting them know how we can work together. And it just felt so haphazard, but yet that was what it was. So how did, how did that like, how did

that feel for you? Did you come to the realization like, yeah, this is part of it. This is what I do.

Mike Brevik (22:45.42)

You know, I, I, I'm going to refer back to, think that honestly, think that confidence that I got from these brands reaching out to me, like even like my connection said Nike and like them reaching out to me and giving me whatever endorsement confidence, you know, Hey, go get them kind of a vibe that they gave me just honestly set me up to go out there and believe that.

Shannon Mattern (22:51.442)

Yeah

Shannon Mattern (22:55.2)

for

Mike Brevik (23:14.282)

Even if I don't have the mechanics down, I'm capable of doing this. So I just have to keep swinging. I have to keep going and I have to keep pushing this thing. And the more I did that and the more I kind of surrounded myself with other entrepreneurs and like -minded people, it started to become obvious to me where I was ahead and where I was behind. Like, and that's not a knock on other people. It was just, I could just tell that

Shannon Mattern (23:36.885)

Yeah.

Mike Brevik (23:42.932)

I'm, I'm way ahead of this guy in these areas, but pretty behind in these areas. So like, I could kind of start to assess myself in the process and then work on things. And, and I'm like, I do believe this is going to sound arrogant, but like, think it's impossible to fail at this stuff. If you just get after it, like to, to, truly just like it completely failed, then something catastrophic. You missed it.

Shannon Mattern (24:03.38)

I totally agree.

Mike Brevik (24:12.15)

Because if you're out there pushing and driving and just cultivating relationships, it's almost impossible to fail. And I went into it kind of, you know, humble enough to, I got a business coach day one. I was surrounding myself with anybody I could that I felt knew more than me. And I'd swallow my pride and I would ask them questions and I would try to learn everything I could from them. And then I just.

Shannon Mattern (24:26.57)

Yeah.

Mike Brevik (24:40.854)

you know, basically tackled all my fears. Like I'm not I'm charismatic enough in a room and like I don't mind talking to people and most people probably would be surprised by what I'm about to say. But I don't like hanging out in large groups of people. I don't like hanging out with strangers. I really don't. But it's part of the gig and I had to get over it and I had to just power through it and I had to suck it up and I had to kind of just

own it you know and that was probably the hardest part is that there's just a lot of stuff I didn't want to do but there was nobody else to do it so it is what it is and you figure it out and yeah and I just did it anyway and I did it with the idea of knowing that it wasn't going to be forever I mean that was the plan is I can't I can't hunt for every meal forever

Like I gotta get to the point where I've got some back stock and I've got some ability to rest and focus on vision, you know, because that was the goal of this whole thing.

Shannon Mattern (25:46.296)

So when did you get to the point where you really felt like you had some back stock and you were able to rest and you have the vision? Like, what did that look like for you?

Mike Brevik (26:01.271)

I'd say like year three. cause I, I, I always, mean, to me, it's always a percentage thing where it's like, I maybe started out with like, I'm going to hustle 99 % of the time. And if I get 1 % confidence and went for sell backstock out of this first year, that's probably good. And then I went from one to five, five to 10, 10 to 20, and little by little year over year, I just,

Shannon Mattern (26:03.605)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (26:19.914)

you

Mike Brevik (26:30.54)

You know, not in a bad way, but I just really beat myself up and I beat my process up and I tore it down and built it up every year. I calibrate it every year. because I didn't want to get in this idea that I never wanted to get to the point where I thought I knew what I was doing and I still don't. I, every year I tear it down and I look at what I'm doing and think, is that really, could I do better? Could we switch this? Could we, could we maintain this? Because I think this is a process where.

things are changing around us way too fast and if you get too comfortable with kind of your methods and your processes and again not that you can't retain a percentage of it but if you didn't touch it you're behind so every year you know I just do that and especially in those initial years I was even more hard on myself where I just needed to

you know, really tear it apart and figure out how I'm going to squeeze a little bit more out of it next year. You know, and that was, and I had, you know, coming into that, had some, if for those of you have ever worked retail, retail's tough because, there's 12 months in a year. That's what they tell us. But in retail, you've got from January to about August, and then the retail climb and the strategies of August and September gets you to October.

And then the years over when October happens, because you go from October to Thanksgiving to Black Friday to Cyber Monday to Christmas into New Year's, you don't have 12 months to really kind of live within that environment. You've got roughly, I don't know, seven to nine months on a, on a good scenario. And then that last month is a throw away because that's, that's the thick of the year. That's 60 % of your sales in that, in that Q4.

So I went into, I took that concept in my head and I took that into my business as well is that first of all, I need to watch for the patterns and see if I can't identify a pattern in my clients and how my business operates. But I also have to know that that pattern exists. And from October to December 31st, I can't count on that because that's gonna be a waste, that's gonna be a time of the year where it's wasted and it's.

Shannon Mattern (28:46.016)

you

Mike Brevik (28:52.632)

That's my regrouping window where I have to get ready for January 1. So I knew that kind of going in and I adopted that into my own business so that, so just so I could get ahead of the competition in the meantime, because not every agency, but a lot of the agencies that I had worked with and had experience with, none of them were doing that. None of them were taking those opportunities. So for right or wrong, I mean, could have been wrong at the time. I wouldn't have known the difference.

Shannon Mattern (29:14.1)

Yeah.

Mike Brevik (29:21.964)

But for right or wrong, that's just how I did it because I was bringing that retail and that corporate baggage with me.

Shannon Mattern (29:30.244)

So, yeah, I mean, that makes total sense. This is what I see like with a lot of, you know, our students and our listeners is that they're like, everybody's off during the summer. Nobody's really doing anything. I'm going to take that time off too. And then they want to like get back at it in right now. And then they're like, crap, where are all the clients? And I'm like, they're already done for.

I don't think you can ever stop marketing. I just don't think you ever stop. And that's what I'm like, if you want something in three months, you need to be doing something today about that. And so that's kind of where I'm curious what your thoughts are on that.

Mike Brevik (30:02.889)

No.

Mike Brevik (30:16.856)

this is going to sound really aggressive, but my thoughts are just like you said, if you think your competition or your clients, if you think that they're taking a nap for 90 days, then you should be kicking it in the ass during that 90 days. So you're 90 days ahead of them. Like that's especially if, if, if it's true, even if you, if you mapped out your kind of your business peaks and valleys, and if you have a chunk in your kind of your grid that shows where.

Shannon Mattern (30:30.483)

Yes.

Yes.

Mike Brevik (30:46.888)

This is where my opportunity is when the clients are paying attention. You should be grinding the hardest you grind all year during that time so that when they kick back into, you know, when they engage again, you're so far ahead of them that you can just scoop up the opportunities and really be where you need to be. Like don't sleep when they sleep. Like don't do that. Yeah. And yeah.

Shannon Mattern (31:09.342)

We are so on the same page for that. I want to switch gears and sorry. No, I was going to say.

Mike Brevik (31:14.89)

Yeah, I was just I was just gonna say that's like, I mean, you hear that a lot. hear a lot of people have that mentality. And it's like, I get I get how you got there. And I get why. That's probably the advice you give other people. But you got to ignore people sometimes you have to you have to think for yourself and you have to think strategically.

Shannon Mattern (31:30.812)

Agreed. Agreed. So I want to switch gears and talk more about like your approach to marketing and branding. And I know you're super obsessed with it, passionate about helping your clients develop a loyal following, just looking at what you do with brand retro and cyber dogs. So a new client comes to you. What is your approach?

to leading them through this process of like becoming, building their brand and really becoming that brand.

Mike Brevik (32:08.342)

Yeah, depending on whether they're, if there's somebody that's coming to me and they have no brand yet, like we're starting at complete zero versus somebody who's coming to me with a pre -existing brand, either way, I've got to dig into it I've got to figure out kind of what this initiative is about. So you're building this business, what's your vision, what's your goal? And I have to extract as much of the human kind of

description of it as I possibly can, because that's the juiciest part of what I can then build a brand off of. Because a lot of times you're going to get those canned answers of, well, we provide the best service in this area. And it's like, that means nothing to me. Why did you start your business? And what I'm looking for is I'm looking for the truth behind it when they say, I want to spend more time with my family. Perfect. So family is important to you.

Now, then I could start to kind of unpack what this brand is really about and the pieces behind it. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to build a logo or a brand around, you know, a bunch of people holding hands or anything, but those ingredients that go into that brand, if I know all those things and we can extract the things that matter most to the person behind the brand.

We can build a very authentic, accurate brand, but we're going to build a brand that you're going to be very proud of and very confident to sell. You know, cause I think that's a huge part of branding that gets missed sometimes is people build brands that they, it's just a logo who cares. Right? So that's the mindset they go into it with. So then when they're out there selling it, there's a disconnect in what they're trying to sell versus the brand or the company that's behind them. Cause they're not bought into it in the same way.

where with people like you and me that have built their own brands from scratch and they've had to take that leap of faith and maybe even make a ton of sacrifices along the way, it's a lot more personal to us. So for me to defend or sell or even tell people about my brand, the experience is a lot different because I'm very passionate about it. Everybody needs to have that to some degree, you know, because that's what branding is. It's an experience.

Mike Brevik (34:31.184)

And so when they when they come to me, that's the first step. It's it's discovery. It's for me to try to get inside their head and try to extract that, you know, those those ingredients that I can play off of.

Shannon Mattern (34:45.236)

You said something that made me think of the biggest mindset shifts I help branding and web designers make around like their pricing because they, they think, and a lot of times it's coming from corporate that they think that the actual like deliverable of the logo or the style guide or whatever.

Even the process of like asking these questions is like what they're selling to their client. And when you said, you know, it's about their confidence in going forward after we have fully flushed this out and delivered that this. What is your, what's your philosophy on pricing and of the work that you do and like the value of a brand and that piece, because.

This is just a piece that like, when it clicks for people, it clicks like you're not selling a logo. You're not selling colors and fonts and you know, all of the pieces and getting, so yeah, I'm curious what your thoughts are on that.

Mike Brevik (35:59.606)

Yeah, I mean, I think the number I think to any young designers out there, just from a process standpoint, you got to work yourself up to you know what I mean? Like, put a baseball analogy in place, like hit some hit some first base runs, then get some second bases, then get some home runs, then graduate to Grand Slams, like let your pricing kind of grow with you as you start to collect some of these accolades and

your confidence will match it too, because once you know you can deliver, you know, you're not wishing it anymore. Like I know I can hit a home run pretty much anytime I want. Then you know, you can price appropriately for it as well. But back to that discovery phase to just design logos is very utilitarian and it carries no value because you're just, you're just, you're exercising this process of I can

I can do artwork that looks like this. And, but when you dig into that discovery phase and you can extract the pieces behind why the logo is what it is and the intricacies as to why it becomes an emotional connection to that client, don't even have to talk money. The value just comes with it. So if they love that logo and they have a personal connection to it, whatever number you're asking, you know, just for fun, call it five grand.

that number doesn't scare them anymore because they love it that much. They're not scared of it because now it's an inherent part of not only where they're at currently, but it's a representation of who they are and what their brand is. But it's now a springboard to the future because they can use it as such. If they just pick a logo because they got tired of looking at them and, guess I can live with that one. There's no emotional connection.

So when you come back and say, okay, now you me five grand for it. That seems like a lot because you're not passionate about it. There's no connection there. And you have to have, mean, even that process needs to be an experience for the client because they might not have to fully understand what you're doing or they might not like, I don't know what you're doing with all this information, but it should kind of become prevalent to them when you

Mike Brevik (38:25.002)

unveil those logo options and they can start to see the, you know, the, should be lights flashing in their eyes to go, okay, I see what you're doing here. I see how we're getting there. And if they're feeling that and they feel that experience, what you ask, you know, what your price is for that logo becomes very secondary. Like it sounds crazy, but this is actually true. I don't worry about the numbers at all. Like I track the numbers and I,

manage them so that I'm straight for my bookkeeper. But as far as chasing numbers or chasing prices, I don't do that at all. I chase experience. I seek customer happiness and I worry about all of that 80 % of the time and the 20 % that's left over. It just figures itself out. It really does. It sounds crazy, but it really does.

Shannon Mattern (39:13.126)

I love that. I love that so much. No, it makes total sense to me. And it's like when you can really connect with someone and ask the right questions to show them, like, I understand what you want more than you're even able to articulate it when you tell me, I just want to be the best widget maker for this audience. you know, whatever.

And you get underneath the core of like, why they want that, what it's going to do for their life, what it's going to do for their business, what it's going to do for, you know, their family, all of these pieces. And you pull together something that they're so excited about. Like you said, it's a springboard to the future for them and they feel unstoppable and they're going to go after, go forward from there and create the thing that they told you they wanted. you.

like empowered that for them, that is so much different than like, I can design you a logo and you get three revisions and here's how much it costs. Like, like you said, that will absolutely, that takes care of itself. That results in referrals that results in like amazing case studies and success stories. And it's fun for us as the like designer to be in relationships with clients in that, at that level, I think.

Mike Brevik (40:39.904)

Yeah. And I think it also allows you to know what are, what a true home run looks like. Because I think when, and I've been in the mode too, but when you're just in logo design mode, you don't know what a home run looks like. Cause you're just hoping they pick one. You know what you're just like, I don't know. I just, I just want them to like one, but when you go through that process and you know, probably like you said, I know more about what this should look like than they do.

Shannon Mattern (40:46.101)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (40:53.28)

It's a grind. Yeah. Right.

Mike Brevik (41:09.13)

you know what a home run looks like and it's easier to sell. It's easier to get behind. It's you know, that's it's just a it's a superpower and you have to tap into that.

Shannon Mattern (41:20.372)

How do you tap into that for yourself?

Mike Brevik (41:25.026)

I actually don't know. Like this is just how I've always, this is just how I've always done it because, I don't know. mean, logos for me, like I, I'm not critical of like bad logos. If, if they mean something to somebody or if they have some legacy to them and you know, it might not be my artistic choice, but you know, I, I'm, to me, the backstory is what matters most.

So when I get the opportunity to craft it from the beginning or to really tear it down and build it back up, I just don't want to leave any stone unturned because I want them to love it. Like I think the saddest thing is when a business is five or 10 years old and they've finally got enough maybe enough confidence or even enough money to go, yeah, I always hated our logo. It's time to rebrand. I get it.

But that's a bummer, man, to be five or 10 years into your process and to have to start over from a brand perspective, not that you're, you know, if it's a bad brand or maybe you're not giving up that much, but I just think that that's a momentum killer for your business. So to get them off on the right foot and to really give them that tool upfront to, and they're, you know, maybe they'll never have to do that if done right. But I just think we owe it to them to do that. And

to guide them through that process and to help them understand how important that is. Because I think a lot of entrepreneurs and business startups, business owners, I think they really backburner the importance of brand because they don't feel like it matters as much. And to me, I mean, I'm biased, but it's like, it's the most important, it's the cheapest date in town. It's the most important aspect of your business. Like you don't have to spend the moon on it, but make it a priority.

Shannon Mattern (43:20.03)

You said something that made me think about like the very beginning of our conversation where you're like, I just want to knock it out of the park for them. And, you know, it's like back to the early days of like illustration where, you know, it was fun for you until it wasn't. And you're able to now, you know, really create something for a client that they are absolutely in love with. And that's just got to feel very,

very fulfilling to have kind of come full circle on being able to create art that people really loves and that has a huge impact for them.

Mike Brevik (43:59.648)

Yeah, it does. And just to be clear, too, I'm selfish in the process because I want to love it too. So like, there are plenty times where it's like, I might even love it more than the client does. I mean, I don't necessarily tell them that. like, but it's just, you know, like I said, I just I like hitting home runs and I like, you know, you know, doing projects like that. And if they love it as much as I do, then win win.

Shannon Mattern (44:08.266)

Yeah.

Mike Brevik (44:27.916)

But, sometimes it's a delayed response to like, I've had many a client where they're like, yeah, I mean, I like it, but if you say it's great, let's go for it. You know, and they kind of put it in my hands and I'll make that decision. But slowly over time as their business grows or they start to collect compliments, or then it starts to click for them maybe six, seven, eight months down the road. But, but either way.

Shannon Mattern (44:39.274)

you

Mike Brevik (44:55.806)

It's it is fun because you know that like they're going to dine off that victory for a long time and they might not even know to what extent yet because their their business has to build around it. But you kind of know it when you know it and it's fun to set them up for that.

Shannon Mattern (45:13.377)

So good. So tell me about the brand retro podcast. Why did you start it?

Mike Brevik (45:18.102)

Yeah. when did I start it? Why did I start it? I basically got pressured into it. Like I'd had enough conversations like this where people are, you know, like you need to get a podcast and you need to do this. And I was kind of like, well, what would I, why, like, what would I do with it? I don't even know what I would say. And it just, it was one of those things where I almost got challenged and pressured into it. And I took it as a, know, okay, well,

Shannon Mattern (45:21.704)

Why did you start it?

Mike Brevik (45:47.394)

They're challenging me to do it. I'll do it. And I started down this road of what, how, how do I want to be different and how do I want to deliver value in this? And there's a lot of marketing podcasts out there. And I, I felt like not a knock on any of these other guys. just didn't feel like I could be like them in the sense that I didn't want to be like, a Groton or a Gary V or I didn't want to just churn.

percentages and guidance, you know, kind of like I was just talking to empty space. I wanted to be very transparent and very authentic about it. And I wanted to tell stories and hear other people's, you know, journeys and, and, know, kind of the things that they had been through. So the idea was a couple things. One is that I wanted to talk with entrepreneurs and have conversations around creativity and entrepreneurship and kind of that as an overall theme.

But I also wanted to always bring it back to the road of what I call like the brand retro mindset in that where we're tapping into this, place where brand and, you know, kind of the nuances of mean something to us. Cause I think we forget that sometimes as entrepreneurs, think, even if you love your brand from the beginning, you know, year one, you're going to become a tax expert and year two, now you're wearing the HR hat. And by year three, you're

Now I'm a sales guy. And by the time you hit year four or five, the fatigue starts to set in and now you're just a business owner. And it's like, some people persevere through that and some people give up and they're like, this sucks. This is way harder than I thought it was going to be. I don't want to do it anymore. And you start to fall out of love with your brand. So for me, the brand retro mindset is you've got to continually, you know, you got to

you know, it's kind of like marriage, you know, got to have those date nights. Well, you got to have date nights with your brand and remember why you fell in love with it in the first place, because that is going to energize you and that's going to give you the juice and the kind of the gas in your tank to go forward. Like I always throw the example out there to people because it seems to be the one that clicks to them. But, you know, can you remember like the best Christmas you ever had? Like what was your best Christmas ever in your whole life?

Mike Brevik (48:08.594)

And for most people, it's when they were a kid. You know, it's like for me, it was when I got my Castle Grayskull and for other people, it might've been a, you know, the Barbie easy bake oven thing. I don't know, but you've never had a Christmas like that since and that, and wouldn't you just tap into that feeling every day if you could. And I feel that way about, you know, your brand, if you can excite yourself with your own brand on a daily basis and that comes out of you.

Shannon Mattern (48:28.245)

Yeah.

Mike Brevik (48:38.476)

You know, as you're growing your business, I definitely believe it's going to have a positive impact on your business and you're going to sell different and you're going to, you're just going to present differently. So to me, that's the goal with this, with this podcast is I want to get people fired up, you know, not only about entrepreneurship and what that experience looks like, but I want to be transparent about it. Cause it's, not a pleasure cruise. You know, you're going to have challenges and, you're not alone. Like being an entrepreneur is a lonely place to be.

But it doesn't have to be, because we all go through it and we're all at different stages in the process and we all kind of tackle things differently.

Shannon Mattern (49:18.334)

I love that origin story that you were just challenged to do it, but then you're like, if I'm to do this, I'm going to do this my way. And we're going to bring like joy to that because yeah, one of the things that I have seen on my journey is that, people will just kind of like throw an old brand away and start over. And like you said, it's just, it, it, it's, there's an opportunity cost to doing that. And.

you know, if you don't need to do it, if you're just jaded, if you're just burnout, if you're just bored. And if you can kind of like get back into the place of like, this is, this is why I do this. Not because I love to do my bookkeeping or, you know, process payroll or whatever it is, but it's because of how I felt when I started this. I just, I love that concept for.

for that podcast and kind of tapping back into like, what were all the possibilities and, just even loving the grind. mean, like there was a time where it was just like, the grind didn't feel like a grind. The grind felt exciting. Like, and, yeah.

Mike Brevik (50:32.46)

Well, and just how just how those the grind translates to other industries. Like that's why, like, even if you look at like the guests we've had on on our podcast, I've interviewed everybody from DC and Marvel comic book artists to like high end business owners, because the grind, the struggle, the challenge, the pain points, pretty similar across the board, honestly.

Shannon Mattern (50:49.14)

Yeah.

Mike Brevik (50:56.93)

but they're industries that are so different, that have different stories, different journeys. But we all go through it on some level, you know? And to be fair, like, I don't know if I'm hit or miss sometimes, like, I just know that I wanna do the podcast in that way and I'll slowly tighten it up and refine it over time. Because I just wanted to do something unique.

And again, selfishly, I want to have fun doing it, you know, because if I hate doing it, I'm not going to do it. So.

Shannon Mattern (51:32.242)

Mike, it has been so fun talking to you. I'm the same way. I'm like, this podcast is a very selfish endeavor for me. It is so fun to get to talk to people like you and ask you all of the questions and meet new people and make new friends. So I really appreciate your time today. I appreciate you being here. Can you share with everyone where they can go to learn more about you and brand retro and cyber dogs?

Mike Brevik (51:56.512)

Yeah, you can check us out at cyberdogsmarketing .com and that's Y B E R D O G Z marketing .com and actually all our social links and everything are right on there so you can follow along. and then brand retro, with cyberdogs is my podcast and, the website for that is brand retro .com.

Shannon Mattern (52:16.17)

Well, thank you so much. I'll link up all of that in the show notes. Everyone go check that out. And yeah, thanks so much.

Mike Brevik (52:22.786)

Yeah, thank you.

Shannon Mattern (52:26.26)

Alright, that is a wrap.