#176 – Web Design Business Pricing Insights From Inside the Web Designer Academy

Shannon Mattern (00:02.094)

Hey there and welcome back to the Profitable Web Designer podcast. This week I'm bringing you another special episode from inside our Simply Profitable Designer virtual retreat that we recently hosted where we spent two days doing some business visioning, strategic planning, looking at how we're spending our time, what we want to create with our capacity and our money and our life and all of those things in 2026.

So a group of women web designers joined me for a couple of days in December to really dig deep into what we think that we need to do to create the results and outcomes that we really want in our business. And what actually is the thing that if we put our time, effort, and energy into that?

place that we can have the most impact and reach our goals faster and easier. And so one of those places that is really common for women web designers and it's a, it's an opportunity that I see almost across the board that nearly everyone I talked to has is pricing. And so today's episode is, a part of the virtual retreat where I talked a lot about pricing mindset, a little bit about

pricing strategy and we brought a couple of our web designer academy students on to do a panel discussion about their pricing journey and what their pricing looked like before making the mindset shifts that you're going to hear about in this episode. What they looked like after and I hope that you walk away with some really powerful insights about one of the

biggest levers that you can pull in your web design business without having to change anything else about what you're doing to create more capacity, more time, and more money in your business. So let's go ahead and dive in to our web design business pricing mindset makeover and student panel discussion.

Shannon Mattern (00:00.281)

So I wanted to talk more about pricing because yesterday we talked about all of the things that we think that we need to do to create the goals, the outcomes, right? So there's definitely lots of things that we need to think and ways of being that will create those outcomes. But also we can't just sit there and think things like we are going to be.

taking action. And we talked about how charging more with the opportunities that are currently in front of us right now is hands down the most effective way to increase our income without working harder. And we talked about how like the data shows that most women web designers massively undervalue what they do and undercharge as a result.

or on the flip side, if they feel like they're charging sustainably, they're putting a lot of pressure on themselves to deliver and they're actually delivering like a higher level of service than what they're charging for. And so there's usually opportunities on both sides of that equation to make some adjustments. And so I want to give you a pricing mindset makeover.

because what I see over and over, whether you are in the WDA and working through these things or you are not in our programs, what gets in the way of either implementing strategy or implementing strategy to its full potential is our thoughts about the strategy, our thoughts about ourselves and our thoughts about our clients, especially

when it comes to money and our own thoughts about money. So we're going to talk about pricing paradigms and the value equation. If you all are podcast listeners, you've probably heard me talk about this, selling yourself first and how to find investment minded clients. And so I'm curious to know from you all, what are your biggest pricing challenges? So

Shannon Mattern (02:24.555)

when you think about.

Shannon Mattern (02:29.856)

raising your prices or charging more or even putting an offer in front of your clients. Amber mentioned just the sticker shock look that she sees. What about some other challenges that you all have experienced?

Shannon Mattern (02:58.123)

I do have another one that I didn't mention before. I could. So yes, I know I should be charging more. Yes, I do believe like what you just said, Shannon, I am over delivering for what I'm being paid. I know that. mean, hands down. However, there is something to what can the market hold? You know, like there's there's only so much I don't know. Everyone defines value differently, but it's like

Values define what what someone's willing to pay for something right. Maybe. So yes I can put numbers like actual numbers if I ask them on a discovery call how much is a client worth to you. I can put numbers in front of them. You know calculating out how much their website will return. But.

I guess the part where it stuck and maybe it's because I've been focusing so much on local, my local market. Yes, it's a very fast growing county, but maybe it's my target market that I'm where I'm like just missing the mark. I do not niche down. Like I have not, like I only work with service-based businesses, but I mean, I don't do e-commerce, but that's as far as I've niched down. I, so maybe I'm just targeting the wrong.

clients but again that's where I just kind of get muddled because my brain like stops right at well I could put any number in front of them where I feel like it's it's the right number but if I keep getting told no no no how do I adjust that knowing that I could go months without work so yeah that's where I'm kind of stuck and and just knowing that from my marketing background

I mean, there's a market out there and right now, I don't know if you guys are hearing this too, but people are struggling with money. Like the economy is just, know, keep hearing it's gonna crash. Anyway, it's just that's all in people's heads as they're shopping for something even they see as an investment. So when you throw 15,000 in front of someone, yeah, I mean, for some people it would be sticker shock.

Shannon Mattern (05:08.397)

But I just think what can the market hold versus what I can actually charge and get consistent work? Yeah, that is.

Shannon Mattern (05:26.029)

How do I want to say this? When some, so absolutely there will be a number for every single client, every single person that you talk to that is going to go beyond what they're willing to pay. That's just all of us, every single one of us, right? There's a number at which we're like, I no longer value this at that number. I think where the problem comes in,

is that when we apply a broad concept like the market to, and especially you have a marketing background, I don't know what your company sold, like when you were in corporate, like what kind of services you sold, but there probably like was a market like for, that they heavily studied and there was probably a lot of data analysis and they probably could be like,

I don't know. I'm just thinking like Amla 100 law firms. Like there are a hundred law firms that are at the top of the legal services industry. We can look at them. We know like what their billing billable hours are. Like we have a lot of information about this industry and we can be like, that's the market that I am like selling to, right? And you're like, okay, my local area, my local area of service providers.

That is the market I'm selling to how and we can maybe derive some information about your area. Like the average income in this area is such and such. And so you can probably gather some data that would give you some market demographics and information about these people.

And so I'm not dismissing the fact that like the market is a key piece of information when we're setting pricing, but we're not a big corporation or, you know, we're where we, when our brain starts going, like there's a certain price that every single person in the market, if everybody in this market can only bear this price, then it's all or nothing.

Shannon Mattern (07:45.087)

And we can slip into this very black and white thinking when we're applying like very logical, real concepts to a scenario that doesn't really apply to us specifically. does that like, does that make sense? And so for as long as I've been in business, nobody's ever said the economy's good. Like I've been doing this since 2016. Never has anybody ever said like the economy is really good right now.

think in my whole entire adult life that I started paying attention to what people said about the economy. I graduated from college in December of 2002. So that was right after September 11th, 2001. The economy has never been good in my lifetime as an adult. That's so true. Do you know what I'm saying? So one of the things that happens sometimes is that we just assume

Like it's so important to notice our thoughts. And when you just shared all of that with me, like, yes, there are absolutely clients that you're going to come across that are like, the economy is bad. That's too much. That's out of my range. I can't afford that. And you do absolutely have a decision in that moment where you're like, okay, well, do I want to scale this back and like meet them in the middle and whatever? Like you never have to.

You never have to be like, well, this is the package and this is the price and this is it. If you don't want to, some people want to. Some people are like, no, I'm actually going to like wait for the next thing to come and that's OK. But what you said that was kind of like telling was like knowing I could go months and months and months without a client. Like if I pick this price and I commit to it and I've overshot the market and I don't know it, well, that's it. I'll never get another client again.

And so those are the so important things to notice because now we know what you're really scared of. And that's the piece where we get to be like, how can we create some safety for Amber to test some things, be a little bit fluid, be a little bit flexible, see what the market can bear, not have it be so black and white. And so that's like what we really get to work on. So I so appreciate.

Shannon Mattern (10:09.352)

you sharing all of that because I think you articulated like raise your hand if you've ever thought any of the things that Amber has thought. Yes. So thank you for saying that for everybody else in the room who thinks that because we can work with that. We can work with all of those things. I don't there's no world in which I'd be like Amber.

You just need to pick your price, set them, go out there and find the people that are willing to pay and wait as long as it takes to make any money until you find those people. That is not what we will ever do. So I so appreciate knowing that because when we do get to pay discovery and when you start implementing pay discovery and package matrix, you will set down the, this is what I think the market can bear and you'll be like,

This is what I think makes the most sense for me, this client and the potential outcomes that I think that they can create. And that's what I'm gonna put in front of them. And I'm gonna treat each one as the individual business that they are. Yeah, I agree. I agree with that. think for me with my background, I was in product marketing for a really long time. So my brain goes to positioning and finding that target market. Like where do they live? Where do I find them?

So that to me is all kind of like, I know how to do it, obviously. So yeah, but this is really, this is really- And that is the power that you have that you bring to like your clients' businesses. Because probably a lot of your clients, like they do need product market fit. Not like we don't need product market fit. don't, like, I'm not saying you can charge anyone any amount, but your clients need product market fit and-

That goes into the services that you provide when you're writing conversion copy for them and all of those things. So that piece is very valuable to you. We just need to use it in the right place in your own business. Yes. And I want to be efficient about it. That's the thing. I don't want to waste time developing proposals, which a proposal may take me an hour, an hour and a half.

Shannon Mattern (12:32.07)

But even that hour, hour and a half to me, if it's just like, I'm just throwing it over the fence or whatever to the prospect. And I kind of know, yes, I'm gonna stay out of their wallet, but I do have a sense now if someone is going to move forward with me or not. I just, feel like I'm at the point where I wanna, it's like an opportunity cost, right? It's like focusing where I know it's gonna go the furthest, like my time and effort.

And just I feel like I don't hate to say like wasting time because it feel like that. can you bring this to the live strategy call? I would love to get deeper into this. Like when is it not even worth like doing a proposal? Yes, absolutely. it feels like waste of time and there's an opportunity cost. If you could, I would love to dig into that because I see some opportunity there as well. And so.

Something that I think is really important for us to understand is that our beliefs about money, they're all very different. You can hear Chloe talk and hear like how, you can get a sense of what her beliefs about money are versus some of the ways that I used to think were very, very different. all have different beliefs about money and the way money works in the world. Our own money.

other people's money, what happens when people give us some of their money, what are we're responsible for, what our clients are responsible for all of this, these beliefs and thoughts make up what I call our pricing paradigm. And if you can see here, this little game Jenga, like every single thought is like, stacked up to create this solid, steady, sturdy thing, which is what I

tall your pricing paradigm. And so it's just simply a way of looking at the world. It's literally just a set of thoughts that make up this belief system that drives your thoughts and your actions and your decisions. And so I've identified three pricing paradigms throughout my work in the coaching women web designers, an investment pricing paradigm,

Shannon Mattern (14:52.122)

hustle pricing paradigm and expense. Sometimes I call this employee mindset or expense mindset. And in every single client interaction, there are two pricing paradigms at play. We start with our side of the street first, and we figure out if our thoughts about money are creating wanted or unwanted results.

there's my pricing paradigm at play as the web designer, and then there's my client's pricing paradigm at play in any sales interaction. so, you know, investment mindset, if you have a default of investment mindset, you're thinking about like, the money that I spend today will help me create more money in the future. My ideas create money, not my hard work. My time is better spent elsewhere. There's always more on the way. You have thoughts about money.

that aren't like money is finite, right? If you operate with an expense mindset, this is how I was raised by the way, like that I make money in exchange for my time since time is finite, money is finite. There's really no way to get more money other than winning the lottery or working more. And so once it leaves my bank account, it's gone forever. And if I operate this way, then

It also, I also think that that's how it works for my clients, that when they give me money, I have more, they have less, now they have been harmed in some way. And the pressure is on me to make sure that I don't harm them or that they get their money's worth. A hustle mindset says, oh, you make money in exchange for your time, but I can raise the value of my time. I can raise the value of my time by learning more.

being better, hustling, creating more efficiencies in my business with systems and processes. Like I'm gonna like hustle to like raise the value of my time and maximize it so that I can make more in the time that I have. And so you kind of bounce between this expense mindset and investment mindset. And this place can get you pretty far, but it's really shifting into the investment mindset for yourself that's gonna help you

Shannon Mattern (17:20.346)

like unlock this time for money paradigm. So I mentioned that we want to start with our side of the street and figure out if our own thoughts about money are creating wanted or unwanted results. So unwanted results can look like not charging sustainably, over delivering, underperforming,

So what I mean by underperforming is like,

Shannon Mattern (17:56.64)

not going after things that you know you want because you're afraid of the responsibility of taking it on. So if at your core you believe people can't afford to work with you and that you're harming them by charging them or that what you do isn't worth that much or that you have to be a perfect version of yourself and that their results are all on you, then it makes total sense that you would keep your prices low to protect yourself from ripping people off.

or from feeling overly responsible for their financial decisions or for them not being able to pay their bills because of you, or you are also protecting yourself from having to like deliver at a high level because you didn't charge them that much in the first place. So it's like, if I keep my prices low, then it doesn't have to be that good. And then the pressure's off, right? Even though you know you will make it that good anyway, but you just think that.

you take the pressure off of yourself. So the real you, you, the real you at your core, the one who spent time the past couple of days really thinking about your goals and your dreams and the impact that you want to have doesn't want this. But your nervous system, which we've talked about, is just doing its job. it's, yeah.

Can you go back to the last bullet point on the previous slide and tell us what you mean by that? want to help to stay stuck? Yeah. Yeah. What do mean by that? So what I mean by that is when we keep our prices low because we're like, they can't afford it. They can't afford it. There's they're like whatever reason we made up for them not being able to afford it. I

need to like swoop in and save them from making a bigger commitment to the thing that they say that they want.

Shannon Mattern (20:02.053)

Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does. So I think I've done some of that. It's a little bit of like codependency in a way where it's just like, I don't think they can handle it. So I'm to take this on for them. And I'm not calling like I'm not allowing them to like rise to the occasion, take a risk, potentially have it not work out for them. I'm taking that on for them at my own expense because I think

Chloe said it earlier, like I'm missing out on, if I only charge 5,000 and it's worth 7,500 to me, I'm missing out on that 2,500. It's like, let me just pay for that for them because I don't believe that they can handle it. Yeah. Okay. So it's like empowering them to like not really step up. And it's not like, I'm not saying like arbitrarily charged 20,000 for something that like you don't really see it being the value of

being that valuable, right? But if it is, and then you're discounting it to like save them, that's holding them as small and not capable. Okay, thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. And when we do that, that's our nervous system doing its job. It's running the show. It's trying to prevent us from feeling any kind of like discomfort.

Its job is to protect us, right? It takes instructions from our pricing paradigm that we don't even really know is operating in the background. And it's like, keep your prices low. That's the best way to stay safe, right? When I talk about creating wanted results, because what you really want, all of you here, you know, getting to spend this day and a half with you so far is to like really have an impact on the people that you serve. And you can do that so much better.

Shannon Mattern (21:55.661)

when you are bringing in more income per client, when you are well taken care of, when your family is well taken care of, when you're rested, when you're healthy, when you have the resources to serve clients at the highest level, because when you are taking care of yourself, you have a better impact on your clients. When you're making enough money, you have the resources to deliver to them in the way that you really want. And so,

If right now you're not creating wanted results and those will be unique to you, everybody hears unwanted and wanted results are completely unique to them. You get to question those beliefs, pull apart that Jenga tower until it weakens and falls and rebuild it and decide what you want to believe instead. And so your pricing paradigm when it comes to your own money might be creating wanted results for you.

And so if you're like, if you are solid with your money mindset, that's awesome. And the problem sometimes comes in when we think about like other people's money. So a lot of times there's a mismatch between what you want to charge and what you think about your own value or your client's ability to pay.

And we've talked about that already today. And so where the solution lies is that the first person you need to sell on your price is you. If you don't believe in the value of what you're delivering, you'll never be able to sell it to anyone else. And if you're like most people, you've been making your price about you and your price is not about you.

your prices about the value that your clients will be able to create in their life as a result of working with you. And I think Jennifer experienced this firsthand when she was like, my client actually came back and asked to pay me more because they thought that I undercharged and undervalued this. They valued it more than Jennifer did and good on them that they like rectified that. That's an incredible client.

Shannon Mattern (24:21.346)

And I love that story. But your price is about the value your clients will be able to create as a result of working with you. And you must believe at your core that the value that they are getting is greater than the price that you're charging. And it's not just the financial value. It's the emotional, personal and business outcomes that the client can create. And so someone who said earlier,

They might be able to do it, but they might not want to do it. The opportunity cost for me to continue working on my own website is so high, even though I could do it all. But for me to spend my time there is costing me more. And so that's why I have other people do that for me now. And so it's not just about the money, it's about how much more time will they have.

What will they be able to do at that time? How will they feel when someone they deeply trust is handling things for them? Those things are priceless. And you have to be sold on that first because if you're not, your clients won't be either. And so one way to sell yourself is to ask yourself, like, what is it costing them to not work with you? What is it costing them to not create this outcome that they want? What is it costing them to wait? The cost of inaction

and lost future revenue, health, time, wellness, it's way more than what you're charging, even if you're charging premium pricing. So if you wanna charge premium pricing, you need to truly believe in the value for your client. And you also have to believe in their ability to create the results that they want. And...

like the messaging is super important, but it's also like the way you think about what you do and the messaging to yourself, right? In your own mind. And so all of our web designer academy strategies from paid discovery through package matrix, even through how we help you like navigate client projects, it's all investment minded messaging.

Shannon Mattern (26:32.693)

And there's so many little subtle nuances to it that you, when you use our scripts, you probably don't even realize that we're having you say things in an investment minded way very intentionally. So you cannot be thinking things like this about yourself or about your clients. We want you to shift into money thoughts that create wanted results. And so these are just a few.

but you all just went through the design your dream business exercise where it was like, when I have my dream business, then I'll think these things about myself. It's like, absolutely. It's like to create my dream business, then I will think these things about myself. So these are just, if you want to screenshot this and start, like journaling on what are some other things I could think that could create

wanted results, like that's, you can screenshot that and start thinking those things. But the most important thing to remember, there are two things, one is stay out of your client's wallets. It's literally none of your business to decide what they can and can't afford. It's your job to set profitable and sustainable prices for you and running your business and then let them decide.

give them all of the information that they need to make the best decision. We're not trying to get them to buy anything from us. We're really painting the picture of like what is possible for them. Yes, clients, like Chloe said, clients are investing in themselves through you. That is gold. Yes, that's exactly what is happening. They're not giving me money. They are investing in their business.

through me. And so after learning this, people are always like, Shannon, this is great. I get it. I only want to work with investment minded clients. Now tell me how to go find them. Where are they? Where is this market of investment minded clients? And

Shannon Mattern (28:47.167)

Pricing paradigms aren't fixed. So.

Shannon Mattern (28:53.553)

We all have all three pricing paradigms inside of us at all times. We have our default pricing paradigm that's our go-to. And that's probably based on the way that we are raised. My default is always going to be expense mindset. I'm always going to have that, like, I'll run out of money if I spend money on this. That's all like, maybe there will come a day where that's not the first thought that I think, but it's still the first thought that I think. And then

I like notice and I reset myself. And here's why it's the first thought that I think, because more people need to use package matrix, by the way. When I'm presented with a package matrix, that's not the first thought that I think. But when I'm not presented with a package matrix, it is so funny to me that the way most people present pricing, it triggers my expense mindset. And it does for all of our clients. And that's why we don't do it that way.

But depending on the situation and the positioning and how offers are made and how the sales process is done, you can either trigger someone's expense mindset as the go-to and get the sticker shock and get the eyes wide and all of that. Or you can use a whole different process that takes this pricing psychology into account and speak to the

investment-minded version that's living in them first. And so you might think that you know the default money mindset of your clients. You might be like, they're a new business. They're this, they're that. They don't value this. But the truth is you really actually have no idea and investment-minded clients are all around you. You just haven't been speaking to that part of them. So if your default money mindset is expense or even hustle,

even if you don't mean to, you are signaling expense or hybrid mindset in the way that you make your offers, in the way your offers are structured, the prices that you choose, the words you say, all of that's coming through your lens and speaking to the version of them who thinks the same way. Operating from the false belief or assumption that there's only one way that people think about money and that like,

Shannon Mattern (31:17.199)

the person that you're making the offer to thinks the same way about money as you do, but it's not about you. You're not selling yourself or your skills or the deliverables and your proposal is not a resume. That all comes from employer hustle mindset. So investment minded clients are all around you and you want to lead them through that and speak to that version of them first and always and not speak to the other

version of them. So that's thing one. And the way that you find them is to be investment minded in your words and your copy and your sales process in your own business. And don't prejudge and like believe that the other person on the end of that consultation or that proposal is capable. And Amber had mentioned like

I want to be efficient. don't want to waste time. But sometimes trying to make that decision for someone else wastes more time than just giving them the option in this way. And you could get more yeses at higher prices when you shift how you're putting the decision in front of them. And so you don't need to convince anyone. You just need to give them a chance.

and a choice to make a different decision with the decision that you're putting in front of them. But you have to stay out of their wallet and you have to not make, I can't afford it, means that you've done something wrong with your pricing. That just means that what they're telling you, like, yes, they might literally not have the resources. And that is a thing. And I'm never gonna say to you like,

Everybody just has money. And if they say they can't afford it, they're just like lying and you need to overcome all of their objections. I think that's gross. I don't like those sales strategies. But more often than not, what people are saying is like, I'm unwilling to take the risk. I don't believe in myself. I don't think this outcome is possible for me. Or I'm just operating from an expense mindset where I believe that I'm not willing to part with this for that. I don't value that outcome.

Shannon Mattern (33:42.95)

It's not about you. So when you hear that and then you're like, well, I have to change my price for the next person. It's like that was an independent situation. That person did not value this for whatever their reasons are. I don't necessarily need to carry their answer into my next client situation. And so don't make the mistake of making that about you.

every treat every situation different. So that's what I wanted to share with you about pricing paradigms. And the way that we like have you make this transformation is through, well, first we have you sell yourself. We walk you through a whole module to sell yourself on your value, but then we have you implement our paid discovery and package matrix strategies, and then teach you how to

through the investment mindset lens, make that offer, while not making any assumptions about what their pricing paradigms are. And so that's how we really help you make over your pricing mindset and really like neutralize that. So we asked some of our web designer academy students to join us and talk about their experience with pricing. So Erica.

is moderating this panel for us. So yeah, Erica, I'll hand it over to you to kick it off. All right. Hi, everyone. Happy Friday. Today's panel, had just a slight change, Shannon. And so today it's going to be Caitlin and Lindsay. Hi, Caitlin, Lindsay. Thank you for being here. We're excited to chat with you. And so

That's the order in my screen that we're going to go. So we'll do Caitlin first and then Lindsay. And so for the first question, before you answer it, I would love for you to just briefly introduce yourself to the room and just let people know who you are, how long you've been with us, and anything else that you would like to share. So we'll kick off with our first question. So Caitlin, before joining Web Designer Academy, how did you approach your pricing?

Shannon Mattern (36:10.012)

How do you approach it now after working with us? Hi, I'm Caitlin Harrison. I am a graphic designer turned web developer. joined Shannon in December of 2021. So I've been here for a while and don't plan to ever leave. So before I was kind of guessing with pricing, I think I was selling like big packages for like 3000.

And they were probably worth like 15 to $20,000. And the projects would just last forever and ever and ever. So there was just lot of systems. so now I use Patrick, I use paid strategy, I use productizing my services. So it's really just really shifted how I run things and how things go. And so now my packages average around eight to 10 most of the time. Oh, sorry.

Patrick is Patrick package matrix. We have to translate. Yeah. Just for anybody listening to this on the replay and didn't see what I put in the chat, I can't say package matrix very well. So like in all of my web designer Academy videos where I'm talking about it, I'm always like Patrick matrix, Patrick matrix. And so it just became a thing where we call it a Patrick or

he's Patrick or, know, so people talk about their Patricks and then what they're talking about is our package matrix strategy. I have trained myself really well to say package matrix. And I don't slip and say Patrick like accidentally much anymore, but now it's just a Patrick. yeah. Thank you, Caitlin.

Hi, I'm Lindsay and I am newer to WDA. I'm in my first year. So I'm still making my growth and my adjustments as it's going, but I am a branding and web designer. I've been doing branding and strategy. I've been in advertising for like 15 years now. I just recently learned web design in the last two to three years. And so I joined the program to help me figure out how to make sense of what I'm offering and to really price it well. And before I was kind of all over the map and I was very

Shannon Mattern (38:34.688)

intimidated with my imposter syndrome of even though I know what I'm doing, I've been doing this for so long in my mind, I had such a young business that I didn't feel like I could charge. I mean, I felt like it was charging what I was worth. I just had no idea what I actually was worth. And what changed for me is hearing Shannon talk about expense, my expense minded versus investment minded and in the hybrid. And not only did that help me move myself out of the expense and expense minded like

hold on everything so tightly, it's never coming back, know, frame of mind into more of a hybrid and investment. And not only am I more open to that, but I'm able to see that like, there are actually people who will spend money on their websites. And there are actually people who will pay you what you're worth if you just say that's what you're worth, because it's true, rather than having to talk yourself into it or, you know, not owning what you're offering. So before I was probably charging, I mean, I did.

I was doing like full brand design and development for like 2200. I was doing I did a website for like 1500 knowing that to get like my biggest package today before I joined was a $6000 package and I did the logo, the full burn identity, all of their packaging and I built an entire website for that and it was e-commerce and I'll look at that now and I'm like that I would never touch that with a 10 foot pole now knowing what it takes to get all of that done and that it that truly should have been.

15,000, 18,000, that should have been phenomenal. So now I charge, I'm taking projects in smaller chunks first of all, and pacing them, and I'm charging five to 10,000. I just had my first $10,000 package this fall and I'm still working on that now. So yeah, big difference. So exciting to see those shifts happen from this side. Okay, so our next question.

So Caitlin, what WDA strategy or piece of coaching has made the biggest difference in your pricing?

Shannon Mattern (40:38.804)

I think there's a couple of things. think it's the idea of the sky is blue that like, if you say it with confidence, that really does make a difference. And, and like Lindsay said, like that there are people out there that will pay for it. And the ones that don't are not meant for you. there's something that Shannon always says is like,

it's okay to like say no and like let them go and let them find what they need to find versus like, I always struggle with really wanting to always over deliver and over help and over explain and all the things that are beneficial to a point with a client. But then there's times where, you know, it's, it's too much and they're not, they're not paying for it for that level of access to me. And so

That was a big shift that Shannon has helped me do over the last couple of years and it continues to grow. I just recently sold a paid blueprint for almost double and I just said the number, it existed that way forever and he didn't even blink. So it was just that sky's blue, this costs X and we can get started tomorrow. And so that's been a huge shift of just, I can have a ton of self.

doubts and lots of inner voice and just kind of turning it on when I need to. And that has changed my business for sure. Amazing. Thank you, Lindsay. What about you? Yeah, that helped me a lot. also, think the biggest difference for me was just learning to stay out of my clients wallets and not deciding for them what's too expensive and what isn't. I don't know their background. I don't. And even if I do, I'm not in their head. Like I can't be in their wallet because I don't live in their head.

And there's so much there going on that I don't even control and can't predict. So I set my pricing based on what it's worth and they get to decide, is it worth that for them at this point in their business? Or do I get to be a thing that they aspire to and that they say for and they say, when I hit XYZ, I'll work with Lindsay, you know, that's okay too. And I learned that in here. So yeah, staying out of clients wallets and.

Shannon Mattern (42:53.174)

Yeah, just knowing and accepting that if I'm going to want to bring in bigger clients that I have to be solving bigger problems. So I have that lens when I'm looking for my clients of is their problem really a $10,000 problem? Is their biggest big enough for that yet? Or are they, is this still their side hustle or they're, you I have to look for the clients who have a problem worth solving for that amount of money. So that's helped too. Amazing.

Next question, what was the most challenging part of improving your pricing and how did you or are you working through that challenge?

Shannon Mattern (43:33.336)

I think there was a big step of just believing, believing in the value. So I remember those early modules, and it's been a while since I've done that. Hello. Got a visitor. it's been a while, but I remember just that like side-by-side comparison of like, is the lemon worth the squeeze or whatever that module is called and just really listing out.

what I do and what its value is. And getting outside of just the deliverables was a huge piece. And I still kind of work through that. Even now, as I build new projects or new offers is like figuring out, sorry, figuring out what it is. yeah, that it's more than just like, I'm going to hook up your email marketing. And so that was the biggest piece that like, I just continually see it for more than

than the deliverable. So good.

Yeah, I think the biggest challenge for me was really getting to understand my target audience well enough to think through all of the hows and why's this matters to them and all of the, you know, just wrapping my mind around how to paint a picture for them. What is possible if they take this next step and make an investment and we can work together and get XYZ done for them? Like translating that into possibilities for them.

took a little bit of adjusting in my mind, but I'm learning it. And that also came at a time when I'm trying to learn a new audience anyway. I feel like having those guardrails up helps me know what to find out about them and what to ask. And my discovery process is improving because I'm knowing that before I can even pitch them a price, I need to understand fully, like, what are they even offering? What do they charge a client? How many clients do they need to get for this to be like a monumental thing for them? And how do I make that look?

Shannon Mattern (45:32.501)

like the natural consequence of us working together. So yeah, that was hard. mean, it took a little work, but I wouldn't even say that it was hard. But that was a challenge I had to get over. I love that. Thank you for sharing. So Caitlin, what is your favorite pricing win since joining WDA?

Shannon Mattern (46:02.999)

I mean, I think it's the one I just had with the pay discovery, like adding in the pay discovery has been huge and even just, yeah, that was like a big way that it just happened. I mean, I feel like, again, I've been here for four years, so there's a lot of them, but that's the one that's like the most recent. I remember listening to an old podcast for some reason, it came back up or something and it was like of one of our calls and it was from one of the early times.

I was in here and I think it was like I had sold my first $5,000 package and that felt crazy. So it's like, it's just, keeps growing. And I think that that's one of the things is like, it's really cool to think about who I used to be in this room and who I am now. But yeah, just being really confident in my strategy and brain, because when I first came in here, it was all about, well, it takes me 15 minutes to just like put that together. And Shannon would be like, no.

I love that. Thank you. What about you, Lindsay? Yeah, I think my biggest actual win under my belt pricing wise is the recent contract I launched in September and we're wrapping in January of it was a full, not a full rebrand, I was just building out some visual elements. kept her logo, but rewriting and rebuilding her whole site as well. And she had picked my top package, but even looking now, I should have priced it way higher. I still feel like I'm stuffing it for what it like.

It was a big improvement for me, but it's still, have farther to go on that. But I think my biggest, my favorite win so far is just a proposal I sent out last week, or right before Thanksgiving. They haven't answered back yet. So one, I actually followed up without assuming that since they hadn't answered back yet, it was a no. But two, I priced just rewriting all of the copy and then repopulating that into his website.

Not even rebuilding the site, just working with what he already has, targeting his copy to a new audience he's going for and implementing that on his site. And I charged, I think, $5,200 for that. And that's more than I would have built an entire site. That's more than I would have built a brand and a site for before I'd even started. And I just looked at the timeline he wanted it in. And I said, what would be worth it to me? What dollar amount would make it worth the stress and the hassle of dealing with this over the holiday time frame? And I just put that number on it. And I sent it. And I didn't.

Shannon Mattern (48:22.037)

waiver and I didn't wonder and during the two weeks of me not hearing from him, I was okay with that. I was like, well, now I get to breathe and it's fine. And if he comes back, we'll do it in January. And if he doesn't, you know, so, and it's fine. And I talked to him today and he's like, oh, we were on vacation and I didn't realize, can I get back with you next week about it? It's like, okay, it wasn't a no, it wasn't a, oh my gosh, you're too expensive. And that's where my mind had gone. But I held back and I just said, hey, just wanted to touch base and it's still open and he might take it. He might not, but the peace I feel with whether or not he takes it.

and with what I charge for it, that's a win for me. That's huge. What a perfect example of passionate detachment. Truly, like that's so good. Amazing. Keep us posted on that as well. Okay, final question. Caitlin, what would you tell someone who is considering joining the Websigner Academy? I mean, I always say just do it. Being in this room has literally changed my life.

both just in the tactics and all of that, but some of my very best friends are now sitting in this room. There's just so much that you get by having the community around. Shannon's incredible and it constantly just shares so much wisdom, but there's also that instant support of you pop a question in, you need to co-work, need, like people just jump in and help. And that has been just like a beautiful gift.

And so even if you think you're not ready, you are because there's gold. also I know that people always kind say like, never actually finished it. I never actually finished all of the actual like modules and work, but my business absolutely changed showing up for the calls, being part of the community. and so like, there is something in here for everybody. If you are needing support, you know, I mean, even if your business seems to be running, okay, like there's just.

the way that web designers tend to live on an island, and now I no longer live on an island. So good. What about you, Lindsay? I have very concrete advice on this. Yes, to Caitlin's, you're getting so much more than you even think could be there, like just the support and the calls and the accountability and the mindset of just knowing that you're not alone and that there are people here who adamantly believe that there is no dumb question.

Shannon Mattern (50:46.729)

But beyond that, the time is going to pass anyway. You're going to spend your business money on things anyway. And what are you going have at the end for it? I thought about getting a coach when I first went freelance because I had some savings. But I was scared. I needed that savings to live off of. What if I didn't bring in enough work? And so I was scared to use that money and invest it in coaching. But in six months, the money was gone anyway because I didn't bring in the work. And I had gone through all of the money. But I didn't have any more knowledge at the end of it. And I still didn't know how to get clients.

If I could have gone back, I tell people all the time, if I could go back and tell myself something, would just be invest in the coaching and the money. Because if you can put the time in and the work in to it right, right now, even if you're not at the beginning, but you know, right now, that it will pay for itself. And to have the confidence in that because either way, I mean, you're going to start a new year in January and you're going to have a whole other year ahead of you.

And whether you spend the money or not, the time's going to pass, your business is going to pass. It's just how much do you want to have at the end of it? Do you want to have growth? Do you want to knowledge? Do you want to have confidence? Do you want to be able to look at the next year saying, this is easy, I've got this because I've done the work? Or do you want to start next year the same way you ended this year with, I don't know, I'm panicked at where am I going to go from here? Oh my goodness, that was so good. That got me so hyped up. I need to go do some marketing. I was just sitting here like,

wrapped attention paid to that Lindsay, because I have to say that, like I said, like that mindset creeps back in to me every now and again, like Eric and I are looking at like making a significant investment in some additional support in 2026. And those same thoughts, like hopped up in my head that always do when I'm about to like, do something new and different. And everything that you just said, like

the time's gonna pass anyway. And like, do you want to be doing it the same way that you've been always doing it? Or do you wanna like, do it differently and grow and do these things? I'm like, I needed to hear that today too. So thank you. You're welcome. For that. couldn't have put it any better. I'm like,

Shannon Mattern (53:02.557)

Thank you for sharing that with every, giving everyone in the room, the gift of hearing that. And I always, I just want to leave you with like investment minded clients are all around you. You're just one proposal away from the money that you really deserve to be making when you make those shifts like Lindsay and Caitlin were talking about today and some of our other web designer academy students shared like,

you can just create more leverage. If you're already doing all the things that you're doing and you just raise your prices, that could get you so much closer to where you want to be.