#102 – Six-Figure Pricing and Money Mindset with Austin L. Church

Shannon Mattern: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the profitable web designer podcast. And I am joined by my guest, Austin Church, who I am so excited to introduce to you guys and really excited to just get to be nosy and pick his brain and learn more from him. So, Austin is the author of Free Money. He's currently the fractional CMO for Moxie, which I know all of our listeners love and are moving to in droves from whatever platform they've been trying to make work for them. And, yeah, Austin, I'm just really excited to have you here and to get to know you. So can you share with our listeners a little more about you and what you do?

Austin L. Church: I would be delighted to. Thank you for having me. First off, this show has been on my list of aspirations. I've had my eye on the podcast ever since my friend Nick True was on the podcast. And I was like, I want to be on that podcast sometime. So, to answer your question, I got started with freelancing accidentally in 2009 when I got laid off. And I did not have to have the courage that a lot of your listeners had to have when they left, like a full time role. I had no choice in the matter.

Austin L. Church: Ultimately, I can look back and say, that's one of the best things that's ever happened to me. Because, you know, over the last 15 years, I've realized I'm very well suited for this path, even when it's nothing easy. Maybe we talk about that later. Just because something is wrong doesn't mean you did something wrong. But I came into freelancing through the writing and social media strategy door, and so that's what I did for a while. And then upskilled and started doing more of what I would call pure marketing. So just helping people think about growth. One thing led to another, I had more responsibility in leadership, was able to start doing more advisory work, and along the way realized, hey, I think I may have something to say about pricing and money mindset.

Austin L. Church: And a lot of this traces back to a group coaching program that I did several years ago when my group members shocked me. I was almost disappointed, too, but I was asking what was most impactful about this program, and they said, oh, the conversations about money. And I was disappointed because I thought, what about all my really cool ideas? I thought that you'd be impressed with my frameworks and methodology. And it was like, no, just the fact that I've made a bunch of money related and pricing related mistakes, and we'll talk openly about those. I guess that's what landed. Go figure. So my 15 year career as a freelancer and consultant has been amazing and really hard and really rewarding and really discouraging and all the things. So here we are.

Austin L. Church: I'm not dead yet. I, here we are.

Shannon Mattern: I can relate to a lot of that in terms of, you know, just it being rewarding and discouraging and the hardest thing and the best thing. And I, you know, only one time in my journey have I considered going back to getting a corporate job. And when I actually allowed my, my mind to imagine what that day would look like and what that week would look like and what that month would, would look like, I was like, I'm going to keep, I'm going to keep persisting over here because I just, you can tell me all you want that this is a flexible job and that I'm in control, but I know ultimately that I'm not. And so, you know, I, I am so glad that I did not go back down that path. I find it fascinating because money is the one thing everybody wants to hear me talk about as well. And I think that it's, I read a quote the other day that how we do money is how we do everything. And I feel like it's that like, first conversation that we get to have with people. Like it's, it's really practical, but then it's also like, oh, but this is also going to get to the core of expansive, too.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah. So what are your thoughts on that? Like, in terms of, you know, pricing is one of the big things people want to tackle, but like, what are they really solving?

Austin L. Church: So I think we're, first of all, just trying to pay our bills. I mean, you use that word practical. I think that's the truth of it, is how do I make this work financially? I think the reason it gets expansive or a lot bigger very fast is because a lot of us, myself included, come into the business world without having had much education in cash flow management or spreadsheets or bookkeeping or accounting. I was an english major twice over. It's not like there was a class in six years worth of an undergrad and master's education. There was not a single class where we talked about how to make money as a writer, you know, and I imagine a lot of the web designers, developers, brand designers, all the folks in your community, my guess is a lot of them had a similar gap in their education of how to adult, because we're not just talking about, okay, how do you run a profitable business when you're a solopreneur? We're talking about business finances and then necessarily personal finances, too. So I think the reason money becomes so expansive is because, well, when we start talking about money within a business context, we're talking about three distinct skill sets. There for me is writing for a lot of your people.

Austin L. Church: There's design, right? That's number one. Number two is, okay, but how do I make money as a designer? That's number two. Number three is, how do I keep and grow money? Like, no wonder our heads are just spinning around on our necks, because we're like, wait, I have to develop a core competency in all three of these areas. No one told me that when I first got started as a freelancer that, you know, you can make a lot of money, and then you can look back across a year and be like, well, not only do I not have much to show for all this revenue that apparently came in, I also still owe extra on my taxes, and where's that going to come from? And it's a punch in the gut, right? So I think that's one of the reasons the conversation about money gets kind of murky and confusing really fast, is because it's like, okay, so when someone says money, what are we really talking about? Well, we're talking about bills, and we're talking about the mechanics of running a profitable business. Then we're talking about everything else that money represents for us, which is like freedom, security. For some people, it's physical safety. I need to move to a different place. For some people, it's like leaving terrible situations.

Austin L. Church: For some people, it's, hey, I desire more opportunities for my kids, or I want to be able to get an elective medical procedure. Money symbolizes so many other things. So it is practical and it's very big, and it's emotional, and it's symbolic, and it's all these things bundled up into one word, and then it's like, oh, and by the way, you need to put a price on what you're going to charge for a website. And you're like, what? But we haven't solved for all these other things yet. How am I just supposed to slap a price on something and feel good about that? So there's a lot to unpack there.

Shannon Mattern: So you noticed that in the group coaching program you were teaching that everyone's like, yeah, that was awesome, but pricing is the thing. How did that lead you to writing your book, free money?

Austin L. Church: I wasn't convinced I had something to say until some people who'd spent time with me said, you have something to say? And I said, what do you mean about that? And they said, well, you created a safe space where we could talk openly about all of the head trash that we have related to money. A lot of us make it to adulthood without ever closely examining what we believe about money or even how did we form those beliefs in the first place. Like, money is a tool. Yes, but it's also a tool we have an emotional relationship with, unlike a hammer. Right? Maybe you have formed an emotional attachment to your hammer, and if you have, that's fine. No judgment here. But we were in that group, and we were. I realized after the fact, this is the first time that some people, like, one of the women in the group said, okay, full disclosure, I'm actually a trust fund baby.

Austin L. Church: I don't have to work, and I feel bad charging people when I don't have to have the money. Right? One of the other people in the group was like, I grew up in a really healthy money household, and it's fascinating to hear you all like the contortions you go through to not charge what you're worth. And I'm like, okay, that's awesome. We need more like him, right? And then other people were all across that continuum or spectrum. So I realized, okay, I do have a process or a methodology to help people arrive at a price that they can actually put on a project, one that will cover their immediate needs and move them toward their long term financial and lifestyle goals. But I would say that's actually of secondary importance compared to saying, hey, I need to go down into the basement of my subconscious. I need to grab ahold of those dusty boxes that have stickers on them, and then written on one sticker is like that parent, or that. That conversation I overheard between my parents when they were both super tense and they were talking about money.

Austin L. Church: Like, you don't even real. We're like these magpies where we just go around collecting stuff, and then we form that stuff into a nest of belief. And then later on, it's like you stumble across another web designer whose work you think is crap, and then you found out what they charge for that webflow or that WordPress site, and you're like, how did a conscience charging $15,000 for garbage? And then you have to take a step back and say, well, if they can, why aren't I? Because I would take better care of those clients, right? And so that's when you have to go down in the basement and say, clearly there's some powerful subconscious forces at play preventing me from charging for the full value I created. So that's how it all got started.

Shannon Mattern: It's truly fascinating. I mean, until I started a business, I had no idea that I had a basement full of boxes with labels and crossed out in boxes full of generational money stuff that was standing in my way. And it's really interesting that you say that, because I'm exper, like, right. My husband just accepted a new role, and at his old company, they were all about, like, penny pinching, save every dime, do everything as cheaply as possible, get 17 approvals for this thing. And then at the new company, they're like, just make it happen. We don't care how much you spend. Like, they have what. And it is breaking his brain in the way that he's just like, that.

Shannon Mattern: I don't understand. Something's wrong. I'm doing my job wrong. And he's constantly being, like, not reassured, but reassured that, no, this is how we operate. And they serve two totally different socioeconomic spectrums of the market. Right. And so it's like he is having a hard time existentially operating the way that new company wants because of his money stuff. And he's not even a freelancer.

Shannon Mattern: Right.

Austin L. Church: So it affects all of us. Right.

Shannon Mattern: It affects all of us.

Austin L. Church: I've, like, imagine if you lived in a house with, like, five foot ceilings, and then suddenly someone invites you over to their house that has ten foot ceilings. When it comes to, like, identity and belief, we don't just automatically stand up straight when there's room for that in the new house. And so your husband's new job is a perfect example of, even when you have leaders who are sort of preemptively endorsing, spend more money, just be able to make a good case. But otherwise, we don't need 17 steps in an approval process. And this is hard for a lot of freelancers and consultants to get right. Because if you've been in the cramped house with low ceilings, then after a while, you're like, well, you know, people just aren't willing to pay a whole lot for what I do. And then maybe you hear about a different market or a different industry where people are willing to pay two, three, five, x, you will often not believe it, or you'll think that it's a fluke. And then when you should have seriously considered pivoting to this industry that pays people with your skillset so much more, instead, we'll stay in the cramped house.

Austin L. Church: Right. And that's why, unfortunately, a lot of our growth as solopreneurs is inextricably bound up with our growth as individuals. As people. And also the good news is, if you do that interior work, if you work on yourself, then suddenly all the growth that wanted to happen in your business starts to happen. It can be slow for some people, it can be fast for other people. I think it's fun to go on this journey with people, just to see the lights come on and be like, wow. Like, I love after people read full, like, free money. I get at least a couple times a week now messages from people who are like, okay, I was skeptical.

Austin L. Church: I followed the process. But then as I was following the process, I found that my confidence started to go up. And then by the end of the process, I realized, well, this is what I have to be charging. Like, what I've been doing before just wasn't sustainable. And I need. I have to be doing this now for me and for my family and for my future goals. Or I'll never be able to buy my own home if I don't start saving aggressively. And I'll never start saving aggressively if I don't raise my price.

Austin L. Church: Like, so that emotional attachment to the future that people want, the lifestyle they want, finally kind of makes them energized or even mad enough to become better advocates for themselves. And then they put a price in front of a client. And you get that first yes. And suddenly that yes is the new baseline. Then it truly can change your life. Like, one project at that higher price can change your life. And, like, those are the moments as a coach and as an author, I kind of live for.

Shannon Mattern: So you share a lot of these stories in the book, but I want to hear, like, the Cliff notes version, if you will, of your, like, money journey. You know, what was. What was that like for you?

Austin L. Church: I joke, seriously, that I'm a recovering money moron because for the better part of my life. Yeah, that's a true statement. For most of my life, I would have told you I'm just not good with money. So, speaking of low ceilings, right. Maya Shankar, she's a cognitive scientist, and she's the person who introduced me to the idea of identity priming. And the idea is we act in ways that are consistent with our perceived identity or the identity we aspire to. So for years, I told myself I'm just not good with money. Well, what did that prime me for? Debt? Spending more than I made? My big wake up call was in the middle of 2012 when my wife randomly, one afternoon, gives me this gift bag.

Austin L. Church: And inside of the gift bag at the top was this little bundle wrapped in tissue paper. I was like, okay. And so I'm unwrapping this, and it takes my brain a while to catch up with what my eyes were seeing. It was a pregnancy test. And I had a curse word moment. And then I thought very soon after that, I don't want to welcome a child into this financial climate that we have created. So in terms of my journey and my relationship with money, I had to have a big freak out before I started to re examine what I had told myself. I'm not good with money and instead start thinking, well, and this is me sort of reading backwards onto those months and years.

Austin L. Church: But, like, I've already learned how to do harder things. I can raise my financial literacy because I can figure things out. And so a friend recommended a couple of books from Robert Kiyosaki. One is called rich dad, poor dad, which many of you may have heard of. Another one was called increase your financial iq. So I read those books, and then I again, because I'm a soon to be father, absolutely freaking out and not being able to control hardly any aspect of the pregnancy. So what I can control is binging on personal finance books, right? So that's what I did. And lo and behold, it was messy and circuitous.

Austin L. Church: It certainly wasn't a straight line. But I learned how to be better with money. And then naturally, if personal finances start to stabilize, then you start to value stability. I think some of us, especially solopreneur types, are addicted to chaos. That's a whole other conversation. But part of my journey was changing my identity. Maya Shankar there's this other concept in cognitive science, in psychology, it's called identity foreclosure. And it's this idea that we prematurely put limitations on ourselves.

Austin L. Church: When it's like, okay, you're not good with money, so learn. You're in your twenties, you're in your thirties, you're in your forties. You're in your fifties, you're in your sixties. Okay, learn. You're not a good cook. Okay, learn. You don't know how to exercise. Okay, learn.

Austin L. Church: So, like, I went back and revisited this idea, and I'm like, I could become good at this if I wanted to. Morgan Housel talks about that in the psychology of money. Like, hey, he doesn't put it quite this way, but it's like, people less intelligent than you have figured this out. So give yourself permission to go figure it out. Be your own best sort of buddy in that respect. Put. Put an arm around your shoulders and say, I believe in you. You can figure this out.

Austin L. Church: So that's what happened. I was always kind of pushing the envelope with pricing, meaning just experimental, in part because when I first started, there was almost nothing online about freelancing. So even if I had looked to find or like, research what other people were doing, it would have been like a big goose egg. And so I think that kind of did work in my favor. But when I started to have prices that actually made sense for our financial needs and stability, and then I started to kind of put my house in order on the personal front with as simple as it sounds, and this is something nick, true, who I mentioned earlier, talks about widening the gap between what you earn and what you spend. If you just widen the gap, all sorts of good things happen as a result. So I started, we started widening the gap. And again, it took time.

Austin L. Church: It was messy. But out of all of the core competencies that we could develop as designers, solopreneurs, marketers, can you think of one that can have much more impact on your stability and your mental health and your attitude and your optimism, can you think of one that would have more positive impact than, like, having a really healthy relationship with money?

Shannon Mattern: I don't think there is one because I think money touches all of those areas of our business. So when you, if you're like, oh, I have mess in all of these areas of my business, and you think about like a line of dominoes lined up knocking over the money. Domino is going to knock over all the other dominoes because it affects every other area of the business.

Austin L. Church: So true, right? And so I go through this, it's very simple with coaching clients from time to time because they'll, they'll be tied up into knots with what's going tied up in knots with what's going on in their business. And I'm like, would you be this confused if you were making plenty of money?

Shannon Mattern: Such a good question.

Austin L. Church: And I'm not trying to be like Doctor Phil on anyone. How's that working for you? You know, it's more just like. Because sometimes the answer is no. Like. And I'm like, okay, this is. But sometimes the answer really is as simple as my business isn't sustainable from the financial point of view. I'm like, great, let's fix that. And then I think a lot of other issues in the business will just naturally resolve on their own.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah, absolutely. So when you started to, like, write your book, had you implemented, because you talk about a specific set of steps in free money that people go through is that a process that you went through yourself as well, and you were kind of, like, reflecting back on, like, how did I get my money house in order? Like, kind of documentary of your process, or how did that work for you?

Austin L. Church: So the process originated during another personal crisis, right? But this one was at the beach, which is even worse, because at the beach, you're supposed to be having a good time. But the steps, or at least five out of seven of them, originated September 2015. If you can imagine me sitting at a kitchen table and, like, a vacation rental at the beach, and I had, like, snuck back inside because I was being a bad boy. And in my mind, being a bad boy is doing a little sneaking in some work when I'm supposed to be on vacation.

Shannon Mattern: I have done that so many times and gotten in so much trouble and been told, the worst boss ever. Like, your boss is too demanding. She should not be making you work right now.

Austin L. Church: That's right. Oh, she's the worst. But she's the worst. I had two browser windows open, and browser window a was my bank account balance, and browser window b was my credit card balance, and I did not have enough money in the bank account balance to cover the credit card. And I'm like, oh, wow, we're going to carry a balance. That means we are officially in debt. And again, we had. This is two years after our daughter was born, and our son had just been born a couple months earlier.

Austin L. Church: And so it was another wake up call. Like, our family is growing. And even if my prices were fine before, as soon as our financial needs grow, well, then prices need to grow, too. And it's not me being greedy. It's not me really trying to squeeze my clients. It's me being practical in having a business and revenue model that serves me. So I got online, and again, this is 2015, nearly ten years ago now. It's not like there were tons of people who are like, here's a methodical, step by step process for arriving at a price for an individual project that works for your life.

Austin L. Church: I'm like, so I just had to hack something together. And to be honest, it was really discouraging at first, because when I revisited how much money we were spending every month, and then I looked at how much money my business was bringing in each month, and then I looked at my rates at the time. I'm like, there are some huge disparities here, right? I'm not making nearly enough money. And no wonder, because how are these rates supposed to get me there unless I was working, like, some ungodly number of hours every week. So. And again, it wasn't an overnight thing. Just because you know what you need to do doesn't mean you have a magic wand, right? This is embarrassing, but I had not raised my rates in two and a half years, so no wonder, right? But that was sort of the next big step in the money journey. I still use that process, that same process, albeit refined now, but it's still the way I think about pricing because I had to invent my own process, because I found so many holes and gotchas, other really important factors that the one or two pricing methodologies that I found didn't factor any of these things in.

Austin L. Church: And I'm like, well, then all the numbers that come out on the other side are going to be wonky. So, like, that's trash. So, yes, there are any number of pricing models, but at the end of the day, it all has to fit with your life. How much your life costs right now and what you want your life to look like 18 months to three years from now. And do you have prices that are gonna get you from where you are to where you wanna be?

Shannon Mattern: So I cannot agree with you more on that, because I think what I also found was that in my search of what to charge, of course, I'm like every other web designer. I'm, like, gonna go stalk all the other web designers websites and see what they're charging, how they're pricing and how they're structuring things and just assuming that it's working for them, right. And copying that and thinking like, oh, that must be the going rate for this service. And that was, like, my second evolution of how to do it. Because my first evolution was, well, this is my salary at my day job. And so if I just charge that much an hour and I basically take on a second full time job, if I can bill 40 hours a week, then, easy peasy, I can just slide right on over here from there. And I'm still. And I was doing, like, my gross, you know, so, like, pre tax.

Shannon Mattern: And I'm, like, thinking I'm being real, like, smart about that. And then I'm like, oh, a billing 40 hours a week with the additional hours that you have to do to market your business, all of the things that you do as a business owner that are non billable to clients.

Austin L. Church: Yes.

Shannon Mattern: And, you know, everybody on this podcast has heard me talk about all the things that I talked. I've talked about in a recent presentation with you guys about employee mindset and people pleasing and all the places that, like, I just withered away all of that time. And so I was just like, how do people do this? Because I want to replace my paycheck. I don't want to leave this six figure day job that I hate and not make that much money because I'd rather, you know, I just don't. I didn't. I wasn't willing. I had the golden handcuffs on at the time, and I just wasn't willing to, like, I made a commitment to my husband, like, hey, if I leave this awesome job, what goes into our bank account won't change. And I had a, like, trial and error my way there, and it took me three years to figure it out.

Shannon Mattern: And I did the hourly thing, then I did, well, what is everybody else doing? And then I finally was like, oh, I need to start with what I'm paying myself and then add on expenses and then add on taxes and then add on business savings. And that ended up looking, like, double my paycheck. And then I had to, like, grow into the person who believed it was worth it to charge that much. And the journey for me was, okay, well, then I needed to get, like, five clients at $2,000 every single month. Well, that's freaking a disaster to work with that many web design clients every single month. And I just, like, stair stepped my way to, like, oh, maybe I'm allowed to charge more for this. And it was a journey, but it's. And then all of the stuff came with it, which is like, but am I.

Shannon Mattern: But is anybody else. Am I ripping people off? What? You know, all of this stuff. And it's just like, I think you and I both just want to give people the cheat code or the shortcut that you don't have to go all through all that to arrive there. Like, Austin wrote a book to get you there faster.

Austin L. Church: Well, because the traps are so common, right? My story is nearly identical to yours in terms of the mistakes I made early on. Hey, my first freelance rate, which was hourly, was a multiple of what my salary came down to. Hourly.

Shannon Mattern: Yep.

Austin L. Church: And then you're like, well, hey, what are other people doing? Let me just, like, split the difference and try to be competitive. And then what I found was, but if I'm copying other people and let's say half of them just copied other people, and then the other half maybe. What? Maybe their rates aren't unsustainable. I'm sorry. Their rates aren't sustainable. Meaning, hey, I live in an expensive city. Or maybe you copy someone and they live in a city that's less expensive than yours. And so what are you gonna like, pick up and move to a much like, I guess you could, but they're all these factors that some of them conscious, some of them unconscious that cause other people to set rates.

Austin L. Church: And if you're just blindly copying other people, it's highly unlikely that the rights are going to work for you. And even if they do work for you, sometimes it takes our confidence a while to catch up with our capability. So I was a pretty good writer from early on, but we then will bump into imposter syndrome. So I believe that I wasn't quite as good as I was.

Shannon Mattern: Right.

Austin L. Church: And so that's the other. And you, I was, I'm so happy that you touched on this because it's like, even if you arrive at what you really do need to charge, which in your case you're like, hey, it was almost double of what my salary was. Well, charging, that assumes that you're in this good head space where you're like, I'm worth it, you know, we will not charge what we're worth until we believe in our worthiness. I think I may have already said that. So upgrading your belief in your worthiness, that just takes time for some of us, and so better to go ahead and start the price, the process now. And that is what I tried to do in the book is like, hey, buddy, we got to do some mindset work, most likely, but it's sure going to help you if you have rates and can calculate prices based on those rates that you truly believe in and that really do make sense for your life.

Shannon Mattern: The shift for me to believe in my price, when I was still at my day job and I had built a WordPress website for one of our departments, we were selling online continuing education for people to renew licensure. We were a professional association that accredited and licensed these professionals to be able to do their job. And so I built a continuing education licensure website and built it, like, I would say, from scratch, but, you know, from WordPress plugins from scratch to solve like a business case. And every single month I had to do the financial reports for that, for the further revenue that that created for our business. And I was like, I built that with my mind, all my mind, and it brings in a hundred thousand dollars a month for this, for my company, and it costs them hosting and whatever they're paying me, which I also do.

Austin L. Church: Which I now realize should be more.

Shannon Mattern: Right, which I also do so much other stuff than just this one project. And that's when I was like, oh. Like, I, when I do this for freelance clients, like, this is what I get to focus on, like, what is possible for them, not what's everybody else charging. And that was a big shift for me to be like, I, this was my idea. This was my intellectual property. I created this. I took what you needed. I took what was available.

Shannon Mattern: I came up with something that's valuable, and it created this results. And so that's kind of where I was like, oh, this is how I get, this is how I get to think about this, to get to charging that number, because I still couldn't quite get to, like, well, I get to decide and I'm worth it. I had to, like, still externalize it a little bit.

Austin L. Church: I think that's, that's huge, though, right? Because if you do see a number that's like, double of the highest you've ever made or the most you've ever made, right? I had. His name is. He has since passed away, but his name was Scott Chrisman. And I think he saw me doing this. This was at a panera bread, and he was like, hey, like, if this works. And we were talking about a different project, but it was for fundraising. And he was like, okay, so if this works and it generates excellent number of dollars in donations, doesn't it seem realistic to charge, like, 10% of that? Doesn't that seem fair? And I was like, well, yeah. And then he just, like, paused just to let me hear what I just said.

Austin L. Church: So that idea of benchmarking a price based on ROI, so charging based on value created, not based on time invested or not based on what other people charge, that's a huge paradigm shift. Right? And I do think more of us can have it. I also think, like, do you know how crab traps work?

Shannon Mattern: No.

Austin L. Church: So generally there's bait in there, and then crabs swim in, and then the first, however many crabs eat most of the bait, and then the other crabs that swim in like they hold on to each other. So I do think it's like, when you start to upgrade your mindset, do you actually need to proactively look for other people who are focused on value creation and who are looking for value conscious or value oriented clients? Because if you are surrounded by other freelancers and consultants who think that creative projects more or less have a fixed price and that if you charge more than you absolutely have to, then you are gouging clients or somehow being unfair or dishonest, like, people will hold on to you and basically reinforce small thinking, then there is a whole different group of people who actually, his name is Andrew. I saw him on Saturday. I'm always going to love this man because I was pretty early in my freelance career when he said, hey, Austin, if you charge $40 an hour, you will not be taken seriously in larger markets like DC, Charlotte, Atlanta. So he was one of the very first, maybe the first person who made me realize that if I just copy my rates or prices from other people in the market, I may be sending a signal to value conscious clients who look at my low price and say, he must not be very good or she must be insecure. Where's the confidence? Right? And I have since, like, he was a coaching client, he put out a bid at my encouragement. That was a multiple of the highest hourly rate that. So it was a fixed price, but he, it was the highest rate he'd ever made on any project.

Austin L. Church: He came back, his name's Stuart. He came back and told me later, they told me that they were relieved because they really wanted to work with me, but they were afraid that the price I came back with would be too low and then they would have to say no.

Shannon Mattern: That's how my husband's company would be truly like. That's how they look at bids and they throw out the two lowest and go with the highest. And it breaks his brain. And I think what you just articulated is something that I've never been able to, like, fully grasp or put my, put my finger on it until you said it is, you know, whatever your ceiling is, you know, or your paradigm around money that you walk around with and you think about money in a certain way, and you have all your thoughts and opinions and I beliefs that you think about money when presented with opportunities to judge money, whether that's spending it or saving it or looking at other people's prices. People in different paradigms with different ceiling heights have their judgments about money when presented with a price, and their judgments may or may not be accurate, that you don't have confidence that you are, aren't good at what you do, but their judgment just works in the opposite way that yours does. And so if you are that confident, why not go ahead and raise your ceiling to match the people that you really want to be working with by increasing that price and letting them see and aligning with where, with where they're operating instead of staying where you're at?

Austin L. Church: Yes, I, from time to time, or actually a lot higher freelancers to do things for me. And there was a designer who said, I would like to charge you $30 an hour. Are you okay with that? And I said, I'm not okay with that. And just paused and I said, but I would be willing to pay you $50 an hour. And pretty soon, I think you should keep pushing that higher and higher. And she has, good for her. But take a step back from your prices sometimes and say, okay, if I'm not getting the clients and projects I want, are my prices actually creating a positioning and branding problem? Because pricing is positioning. And when we have cultural sayings, little idioms like, well, you get what you pay for.

Austin L. Church: What are you communicating with? Just your prices? Are you communicating? If you join up with me, you will get great work. You will get a satisfying client experience. You will get honesty and integrity. You will get guidance and leadership. You will get clear, consistent, copious communication. Like all the things that we know our clients want, sometimes they're just judging us based on price. And I would say for the sake of your positioning and your business long term, you always want to be on the more expensive end of the spectrum, even if they're like, whoa, that's too. And I get that from time to time still.

Austin L. Church: That's too high. That's too much. You're charging too much. And you said this yesterday, Shannon, keep your hands, you didn't say, keep your hands out of other people's wallets. But it's like, that's actually still good advice. Keep your hands out of other people's pockets, please. But you don't know what is a reasonable budget for someone else. And just because someone thinks that your price is unreasonable may be unreasonable for them, that doesn't mean it's unreasonable for everyone.

Shannon Mattern: So good. Yeah. It's like, don't make other people's opinions about your price means something about your price. That's their stuff. That's their opinion. And they can go find someone who, who is a match for them. You have to stand, like, confident in your price. And I know there's, like, that uncomfortable space between raising your price and having that first.

Shannon Mattern: Yes. But it is, like, worth going through the uncomfortable space.

Austin L. Church: This is. I'm so glad you brought that up because I did not know this at the beginning of my career, but it is certainly true now. In many spheres of life, whoever has the highest tolerance for discomfort wins. So when you think about, like, fitness, it's like, if you can make yourself uncomfortable, you'll generally have better health. Right? So when you think about having conversations about money with clients and you put out the price and they don't say anything. Can you sit in that uncomfortable silence? And then when they say, well, that that would be a lot of money for us, can you say, thanks for letting me know, but not come down? Like, not, not cave not. Because I have found that there are people. Maybe it's a smaller number.

Austin L. Church: I go into this in the book when there's a little bit of conversation in the book about negotiation, but some people will say, that's too much. And if you say, I totally understand budget constraints, maybe we'll have a chance to work together in the future. You might want to check out fiverr. And you have 1ft out the door. They will say, in effect, wait, where are you going? Oh, I'm leaving because you said that the price is too much. Like, well, don't you think we can figure something out? And you say, well, sure. What would you like to remove from the scope?

Shannon Mattern: Yes.

Austin L. Church: I am not a grocery store in the couponing business, so you don't get the same amount of stuff for a lower amount of money. Because, sir, anytime I'm using an example, it's always a dude. So that's why we're going with sir. Sir, your pricing or your budget is not my problem to solve. And so, like, that's another thing I wish I'd known early on, because, yeah.

Shannon Mattern: You gotta take some stuff out of the cart, right?

Austin L. Church: Yeah. I'm like, so at the restaurant, at the barbershop, or wherever, if you point at something on the menu, and then you're like, I don't have that kind of money. The barber looks at you and says, well, it sounds like you'd better pick between a haircut and a shave. If you can't afford both, why is it that we creatives. I think it's because a creativity seems epimeral to people. But why is it that when they push back on our price, now it's up to us to figure out how to give every them everything they want? Like, barbers don't do that. Auto repair shops to other service providers don't do that. We don't have to do that either.

Shannon Mattern: That is so good. So good. I had so many more things, Austin, that I wanted to talk to you about.

Austin L. Church: I'm trying to remember what we said. What did we say we were going to talk about? I don't remember.

Shannon Mattern: Well, this conversation has been fascinating. I wanted to ask you more about all the other things that you do in addition to talking about money. We'll have to have another chat at some point in the future, because, um. Yeah, your journey, your own journey, business journey, is really interesting to me, and I wanted to be all nosy about that personally, but I think this conversation, um, has been so enlightening, um, and I know our listeners will absolutely find, like, just hear so many things that they. They needed to hear. I have one question that I ask everyone that comes on this show. I asked it to nick true back in the day. I'm going to link up that episode because he was a delight to talk to, too, and really helped me think differently about how I was living my life and why I was making the money that I was making.

Shannon Mattern: And, yeah, I really appreciated talking to him, so I'll link that up. But I asked him this question, too, and that is, what belief about yourself did you have to change to get to where you are today?

Austin L. Church: So good. I had to start believing that there is a place in the business world for a really sensitive person like me. I get my feelings hurt easily. Sometimes it's less true than it used to be because I think I've had healing, too, and I've, you know, certainly less reliant upon what other people think about me. I have a higher tolerance for discomfort. I have a higher tolerance for other people's disappointment, especially if they're not sort of in my inner circle. Right. But I think for years I thought, I'm just not cut out for this, because it seems like to thrive in business, you have to be this sort of cold blooded, calloused person, only out for yourself.

Austin L. Church: And I have found that the opposite is true, that there are actually tons of beautifully sensitive and empathetic entrepreneurs, then I just need to find them. Because guess what? They would prefer to work with me over someone for whom it's just a job. It's transactional. So if you are listening to this, and you are very sensitive, and maybe you're like me, and you cry during Pixar movies, and then all your kids look at you and wonder if something's wrong with their dad. I have also cried in more than one target commercial. Full disclosure. Anyway, if you're wondering is there a place in business for me, I would say yes. Now, you need to figure out how to thrive as a hypersensitive person.

Austin L. Church: But there's a place for you here.

Shannon Mattern: That is the perfect place to wrap up this episode. It has been a delight getting to talk with you. Can you share with everyone where they can go to get the book, learn more about you, get in your world, learn about how you can support them?

Austin L. Church: All of the things the book is@freelancecake.com so cake like you eat at a birthday party. Freelance cake. And if you just click on book in the main nav, you can get it there. You can get it on Amazon. In terms of socials, I'm on LinkedIn the most, so just search for Austin L. Church and come say hi. And Shannon, this was so much fun. I really enjoyed chatting.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah. I really appreciate you being here. It's been a blast. So I'll link up all of that in the show notes. Everyone go get the book. It is so, so, so good. You won't be able to put it down. There's, it's actionable.

Shannon Mattern: There's so much good stuff in there. And you get to learn more about Austin and what he does as well. So. Yeah. Thank you so much for being here.

Austin L. Church: What fun. Thank you again.