#101 – Overcoming Fear and Failure in Your Web Design Business with Liz Mosley

Shannon Mattern: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the profitable web designer podcast. I'm so excited to introduce you to today's guest, Liz Moseley. Liz is a graphic designer specializing in creative branding, animated gifs and websites for small business owners. And she's also the host of the building your brand podcast to help small business owners feel more confident, confident about all aspects of branding and marketing. I'm so excited that you're here. Welcome to the podcast, Liz.

Liz Mosley: Thank you so much for having me.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah. So can you tell our listeners just a little bit more about you and what you do beyond the, beyond the bio?

Liz Mosley: Yeah, sure. Yeah. So, well, I guess my, like, main thing is branding for small businesses, so that's why I spend most of my time doing. But I don't know if other, I'm sure other creators will relate to this. I'm not very good at just doing one thing. So there's sort of like lots of other passion projects and things on the side that I'm doing. So the podcast, I would say, is a big one of those. So I've got this podcast called building your brand and I absolutely love it.

Liz Mosley: And I spend a lot of time doing that as well. And just, yeah, love sort of chatting to other business owners and creatives and learning so much about them and then also teaching some courses and then creating content. I actually really enjoy all the marketing aspects of my business. I'm sort of dabbling in doing some live streaming and different things like that. I like to experiment in my business so it looks like all sorts of things depending on what day you ask me.

Shannon Mattern: I love it. It's so true. Creative service providers aren't usually just satisfied doing the one thing. It always ends up branching out into so many other things. And also the way you came onto my radar specifically is that a couple of our students in our web designer academy program were like, Shannon, you need to listen to this podcast episode with Chris Doe and Liz Moseley. It's all about rejection. And, you know, they're telling me the story, which I'll give the Cliff notes version, but then I'll have like a million questions for you about how you pitched Chris Doe. He rejected you, you felt some type of way about it, and then you're like, oh, I'm noticing that, like, how I feel about rejection is like getting in my way.

Shannon Mattern: And now I'm going to challenge myself to collect as many rejections as I can. So that's my version. Can you tell me your version of the story?

Liz Mosley: Yeah, I mean, you've got it spot on. So it all started with me asking Chris if he'd be on my podcast, and he basically, he, like, rejected me very nicely, very politely, and he basically was looking for, you know, podcasts with a bigger audience, effectively. And at the time, I. I caught myself, like, feeling, you know, oh, this doesn't feel good. I'm not gonna ask someone of his, like, caliber or, I don't know, like, fame or audience size to be on my get, be a guest on my podcast again, because I don't want to feel like this. And I kind of moved on from it, and it was fine. But then a few months later, I was thinking about it, and I was like, oh, my goodness, if that's where my brain goes after, like, an actually very, like, nice, you know, like a very nice rejection. It wasn't like it was public.

Liz Mosley: No one else knew it happened. If that's how I'm feeling after that, what opportunities am I missing out on? Because I'm saying to myself, well, they're going to say no, so I'm not going to ask them because I don't want to feel like that. And so then I realized I had a bit of a problem. And one of the things I've learned about myself in running my own business is that I do really well if I set myself a challenge or if I turn it into something fun, like, basically gamifying the situation. So I had had a friend who had done something similar. I think quite a lot of people have done it in various different ways. I've seen people on TikTok do it just, like, in their personal lives where they go out and they ask people in the street to sing duets with them. That wasn't really what I was going for, but I was like, okay, I know other people have done this challenge.

Liz Mosley: I'm gonna set one for myself. And obviously, everything is content. So I thought I'd talk about it as well as I went along. And I was aiming to get 100 rejections in six months, and I completely failed the challenge, mainly because people kept saying yes to me, so that it was quite interesting to see what the sort of, like, percentage split was of, like, yeses and nos. I then had to massively slow down how many things I pitched for because I was getting quite a lot of yeses. But then obviously, I had to, like, fulfill those things that I had pitched for. So that's. I couldn't sort of keep up the pace either.

Liz Mosley: But then one of the really nice, like, full circle, you know, I guess, like, loops of the story was as one of the pitches I pitched to Chris. So this was like, after I was quite far into doing it, maybe a year even, I pitched to him to be on his podcast to talk about what had happened. And interestingly, it was six months before he got back to me, which was a really good lesson for me that actually, you know, quite often something we think is a rejection turns out to not be a rejection. It's just like, you know, someone's inbox got a bit crazy or whatever. And so that taught me a whole other lesson in itself. But, yeah, he was really keen, and we had this great conversation on his podcast. And what I find so funny about it is that that ended up being way better for me than him being on my podcast, because his podcast gets like 20,000 downloads an episode. He's got like 2.5 million YouTube subscribers.

Liz Mosley: And so, yeah, I mean, it worked out really well.

Shannon Mattern: I love that story so much. And, you know, one of the, like, one of the biggest challenges for. So I could. I'm a business coach for web designers and marketing, pricing, like sales, project management, dealing with clients, like, the whole spectrum of everything, which I was listening to one of your podcast episodes before this interview where you were talking with your friend about or with your guests about the things we learned the hard way in business. And pretty much like, everything that you guys talked about learning the hard way are things that we, like, help our students with. And so I was like, we're so aligned in what we. It doesn't matter if you're a graphic design, web design, whatever creative sort of service providers, we all have the same things, but struggles marketing strategies that we teach, like, as a foundational core marketing strategy, is just outreach, reaching out to people, you know, letting them know what you're doing. Like, different asks based on who this person is, you know, and we give people scripts and we help them figure out who to ask what, and all of this.

Shannon Mattern: And it is one of the most challenging. Like, it's so simple on the surface. Like, make a list of everyone, you know, decide what you want to say to them, pick the. Pick the quote unquote script, customize it to you and them, like, make it authentic and push send. And it is the most challenging thing for all of us to do, myself included. And so I. That's when we came. When I came across the rejection challenge, I was like, this is brilliant.

Shannon Mattern: Like, let's stop making this all about us. Let's just do it and see how many rejections we can collect and see what we learned from it. So my question for you is, like, you. You decided to do this, and you failed because you couldn't get 100. But, like, what were those first. What were the first ten, like, in terms of, like, actually getting over the hump of just even sending out the ask or the pitch?

Liz Mosley: Yeah. Well, so it was, like, a mixed bag in terms of things that I was asking for, and obviously, like, I think I felt differently depending on what it was. Like. One of the worst ones early on was I pitched to someone else. I won't say who it is, but it was, like, someone else, like Chris Doe, to be on my podcast, and he kind of sent me a quite rude reply because I actually, in the pitch, I told him about the rejection challenge, which I didn't. I wouldn't normally do, but I felt like, because he was so famous, I needed something a bit clickbaity to, like, get him to open the email in the first place. So I told him about the rejection challenge, and he just sent me this email back that kind of totally misunderstood what I was doing was kind of, like, rude about what I was doing, and it did send me into a spiral, and I. And I started to doubt.

Liz Mosley: I was like, am I doing the wrong thing? Like, you know, this guy who everyone respects in marketing thinks that this is a terrible idea. And then I think what was really encouraging to me was, although I still had all the negative feelings, and I started to doubt myself, and all of those. Those kind of things was how much quicker I managed to get myself out of the spiral. So I think in the past, you know, that probably would have taken me kind of, like, days of mulling it over to move on. But actually, what I really noticed was this time, it was more like a couple of hours, and I gave myself a bit of a talking to, and I was like, no, this is like, he. You know, if he doesn't like it and he doesn't understand it, that's fine. I'm doing this for me, and I know that this is a good thing for me to do do, and I'm gonna keep going. So I did nearly, like, pack it in at the beginning with that one.

Liz Mosley: And I think one of the things I've really realized is that I'm. I'm never gonna take away the negative emotions that I feel when I receive a rejection, and I'm actually okay with that. It's more how I then deal with it afterwards. So it's like the taking away the element of it, where it's holding back from asking in the first place. So that's a, you know, that I've worked on, but then it's also like, okay, well, how do I recover and move on to the next thing? And I think that's where the sort of, like, gamifying and, like, turning it into a challenge has really helped, I think a lot of them. So, like, one of the ones that I, the reason I was so confident that I'd be able to get a hundred rejections was I, a big part of it was to do with my podcast. And so I was going to pitch to loads of podcast sponsors, and I had made a list of my, like, dream podcast sponsors, and at the very top of that list was flodesk. And they were the first people that I asked and they said yes.

Liz Mosley: And I couldn't believe it because I was like, no, no, no. This wasn't how this was supposed to go. Like, this was supposed to, you know, rack me up, like, you know, tens of, you know, like, almost get me to a hundred straight away. And obviously that was amazing because I had really wanted to work with them, but it was sort of, like, interesting to see, see what things came about, what things didn't. And, yeah, like I said, depending on what it was, some of them I was less bothered about and it was quite easy to move on quite quickly. Some of them I was, like, more invested in. So it felt harder when people said no. Yeah.

Liz Mosley: So I think it's like a mixed, it's a mixed bag. And I think the other thing that I've realized is that this is going to be like an ongoing journey and lesson for me because I can almost feel myself, you know, I can feel myself sort of creeping back into, like, oh, I'm not going to pitch for that yet. I'm not quite ready. And so I have to sort of, like, keep coming back to it and be like, no, you know, like, go for it now. You can, you know, there is options to go for it again in the future, even if they say no now. And, like, you just don't know what will happen to. So, yeah, I feel like it's just going to be an ongoing journey now for the rest of my life where I'm always trying to, like, push myself out of my sort of default mindset of, you know, panic and just get, snap myself out of that.

Shannon Mattern: It's just so fascinating when you're, like, gamifying it and turning it into a challenge, made it easier for you because it's just like, it takes the temperature down, I guess. Like, when I think about that. It's like, oh, if you're going to flow desk, not expecting a yes, you know, like having, I don't know if you were expecting, I mean, it's the rejection challenge. You must be expecting it. A no maybe, but just having no expectation, like, I'm just going to do this and I have no expectation of the outcome. It is so much easier to push the send button than it is if you're like, well, if they say no, that means I'm not good enough. And, you know, and all of the stories that we tell ourselves in the space between, like, thinking of pitching them and writing it, or after we send and waiting, awaiting a response, or do we follow up? Do we not follow up? Just, we tell ourselves so many stories. And I always say, like, if you're going to tell stories, tell good ones.

Shannon Mattern: Like, you know, yeah, someone's not getting back to you. Like, I hope they're on a fabulous vacation right now.

Liz Mosley: Yeah. And you know what? That is another lesson that I've learned is that, like, mostly it isn't about you and it isn't the negative thing. You know, like we, our default is to go, you know, I guess we've got like a negativity bias, haven't we? Our default is to fill it in with like a bad story. But you're so right. And I think the thing that actually really helped me with this, Washington receiving pitches for my podcast. So quite a lot of the time, the reason that I say no to people is, oh, I've just covered that topic. Or actually I had someone else in mind to talk about that. Or I've got carried away, like booking guests in.

Liz Mosley: And so I don't have any slots until like next year, which is what I've actually done, which is a bit ridiculous, but like, but actually a lot of the time, it isn't that the person is like, isn't good or they don't have something valuable to say. And so that was like a really good reminder to me of actually a lot of the time, there's other factors that are why it's not the right time for a particular opportunity. And it isn't that I'm not good at what I do or that people hate me or, you know, whatever. The extreme story I've filled in with.

Shannon Mattern: Well, even the person that got back to you was just like, I don't understand. Whatever they said, that was probably like, oh, this is the thing I'm most afraid of. And then someone said this to me. It almost, if you are, if you're prepared for that in a way where you can be like, oh, this person is showing me that I actually don't want to, want to collaborate or partner with them because of this reason. Like, I now rescind my offer because you're not the kind of person that I would like to.

Liz Mosley: The right person. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern: Like, kind of stop making other people's opinions about us true, you know, but it's hard when it's like, ooh, this is the worst thing I think about myself, like, deep down inside, and then they just said it to me and, like, we have to just stop at that moment and be like, okay, but, like, is what I think on a bad day really true? So probably not we can just let this person have their opinion, but they just showed me that they're off my list. They're not on my list anymore.

Liz Mosley: I think the thing that's helped me most with this, because I think when I started my own business, I just didn't realize how much work I would have to do on myself and what emotional and personal it is. Like therapy. Because I feel like just every day I'm being exposed to sort of some facet of myself where I'm like, okay, this is something, you know, that's getting in the way or that I need to work on. But one of the bits of advice that I got given, and I can't remember who by, I've heard multiple people talk about it, but was, I think, even when I did some coaching, the coach said this was, you know, like, to create a bank of evidence that is, you know, the opposite of what you believe about yourself. And so she, you know, she got me to make an email folder, and I would save in it all the, like, testimonials I got from clients, just any nice email a client sent me being like, this is great, Liz. I'm so happy with this and just having this folder. So I've got one on my phone, which is screenshots, and I've got one on my. In my email, which is like, emails and just having those there.

Liz Mosley: And what she would do then is like, she was like, when I would start telling these negative stories, she would be like, go and have a look at the folder and look at all the proof that shows you that that is not actually true. And it might be that one person thinks that thing, but here you've got, like, you know, 50 clients who don't think that and have loved working with you. And that has helped me so much.

Shannon Mattern: I have to treat that part of my brain as if it's not me. Like, that voice that comes in, I'm like, oh, that is. That's not me. Like, my therapist once told me anxiety lies, and I was like, what? She's like, anxiety lies, and I'm like, oh. So that chatter in my brain is just, like, not telling the truth. And once she said that to me, and I was like, okay, so now I can, like, almost like, you have gamified the challenge and, like, you're the. The protagonist in the game going through this, you know, on this quest of collecting all these rejections and doing all this thing. And, like, the point is to learn about yourself along the way and grow, not necessarily even get the rejections or the yeses.

Shannon Mattern: Like, I personified that voice, and I was like, oh, that's not me. So when I hear that, I can just be like, thanks for sharing. You can go sit down. I don't need to hear from you anymore.

Liz Mosley: Yeah, you're not even so much easier to dismiss it.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah, because it's not me. Like, I don't know how you got in there, but we're working on evicting you. Oh, my gosh.

Liz Mosley: Yeah. That's such a good way to think about it.

Shannon Mattern: The other thing that I love to think about, like, what you've done and you've mentioned that, like, oh, I reached out and the opportunity to materialize till six months later, I like to think about it all as, like, planting seeds and you just never know what's going to grow, when it's going to grow, if it'll bear fruit, if it turns out, but, like, you still plant them. You still plant them. Like, you plant them all. And then you just have to let whatever is going to happen happen. And you do your part by watering them and making sure you plant them in the right place and making sure that they get light, but, like, you don't get to control if it actually grows and bears fruit for you. And that's how I think. I'm like, well, then just plant the seed.

Liz Mosley: And I think, yeah, absolutely. And I have a great story, actually, to, like, sort of show how true that is, because I, this is, this was before the rejection challenge, so it wasn't part of the challenge, but I think I put, again, it was to do. It was when I was starting to look for podcast sponsors, and I just put up an Instagram story, and I was like, you know, I'm looking for sponsors. If you know anyone that's interested, let me know. And this guy got in touch with me, and it turns out that he was in the marketing team at Adobe, and he was like, yeah, send me over the information. And I was like, oh, my goodness. You know, like, totally freaking out. But part of me knew that he wasn't going to go for it because my podcast was still, like, really early days.

Liz Mosley: It wasn't like, that established at that point. So I sent him over the stuff and I didn't hear back from him. And that, like, totally what I was expecting now, what I didn't know was that behind the scenes, he had recommended me to a colleague for something completely different was, which was this ambassador program that they were putting together. And that ambassador program has resulted in a two plus year ongoing relationship working with Adobe, like, really consistent. It's, like, even better than what I was asking for in the first place. And so I think you're right. It's like planting the seeds. It's just putting.

Liz Mosley: I do think there's something about just, like, putting it out there. You know, what are the things you want, like, put it out there. You never know who's watching. You never know who's listening. And, like, some people are going to look at that and be jealous and critique you and have something to say about it, and other people are going to be like, oh, wow, I didn't know Liz wanted to do that. I know someone I can put her in touch with, someone who can help her reach this goal, and, yeah, and sometimes the, like, rejections actually turn into something better that you could never have imagined in the first place.

Shannon Mattern: I love it. Like, it's just we have. We get to be open to it, maybe looking a little bit different than we thought it would. And sometimes that's the, I don't know about you, but I can be a control freak sometimes, and I'm, like, not even a control freak. Like, I just like to plan, and I'm like, okay, here's what I want, and here's all the, like, steps I'm gonna take to get there. And it looks very much a certain way, and it looks very prescriptive, and then I'm like, I'm gonna follow the plan. And then when I things are presented or maybe the plans not going as planned or whatever, I try to, like, follow the plan and get back to following the plan instead of being like, maybe my plan isn't, like, the thing that's gonna get me the ultimate thing that I want, and I get to be open to, like, whoever sang to me, like, hello, Shannon. Knock, knock, knock.

Shannon Mattern: Like, guess what? Like, you don't always get to control everything. I'm showing you another way. Here's a door that's opening. Do you want to, do you want to go through that or do you want to keep doing it the hard way? Your way, you know? And so that's, that's sometimes my experience with paying attention to other opportunities that come along that you're, if you're closed off, like I have traditionally been, that you, like, don't get to take advantage.

Liz Mosley: Of, miss out on. And I think, I don't know how you feel about goal setting. Like, I really enjoy setting goals, but I, like, I'm really intentional now about holding them really loosely and being totally fine with the fact, you know, that if I look back on the year and I'm like, oh, I didn't achieve that goal, but that was because something else came along that was bigger than I could have imagined or it wouldn't have put on, like, my vision board or whatever it is, however you do it. And so, like, this is where I think being really clear on your values really helps, because then if something else comes along, you can check that it's aligned and that it sort of fits your wider goal of, like, your values with your business. And if it does, then you can go for that and you can pursue that, confident that it's actually going to, like, help you in your overall goal of your business. But it's okay to sort of, like, let the other smaller goals that you'd made that year go because this other better thing has come along.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah. I have historically had a toxic relationship with goals in terms of either, like I described earlier, setting them and then being, like, really prescriptive and closed off and not open to it, looking another way, not reaching them, feeling like a failure and throwing out good things to start over or whatever was probably, like, my first five years of business. Like, well, that didn't work exactly as it should have. So it was wrong. It was bad. Let's start over. Let's rebrand, change, like, all the things that we do in those early years. But now I totally, like, I'm so in line with, with what you said in terms of, like, I want to have a vision of what I ultimately want in my life and my business and know what I want that to look like in terms of, like, how I spend my time, who I spend my time with, what am I doing? Am I fulfilled? You know, what resources are required to create that in terms of, like, money, whatever, and then be open to that, unfolding how it's going to unfold.

Liz Mosley: With.

Shannon Mattern: With effort from me, of course, but not being so, like, prescriptive about, well, I need to make this much money this year. It's like, yeah, like, I know that I, in order to create this about this much is required, but it's not. That's not the first thing that I'm focusing on. And if it looks a different way, I'm okay to change that number, because what's most important to me is, like, how I feel and what I'm doing and family and freedom and, like, all of an autonomy and all of that stuff. And I think that's kind of where I'm like, oh, my goal setting historically has been pretty. I don't want to, like, say too harsh of a word, but, like, abusive almost to myself.

Liz Mosley: Yeah, yeah. And I think it's like that. It's having to remember, isn't it? Like, that there's so many different ways that we can measure success and that we get to define what the success looks like. Because I think when we see all the voices online and what everyone's saying, it's really easy to get sucked into thinking that money is the only marker of success. There's so many people talking about how much they're earning, and in some ways, that's helpful to see what's possible, but in a lot of ways, it distracts us. You know? Like, I've. I've had to work on this as well. I think, like, defining what success is for ourselves is really helpful, because, actually, what I've realized that what success looks like for me is having a business that gives me flexibility to, like, live a particular lifestyle around my family, which I am, which I'm doing.

Liz Mosley: And so I'm like, well, by those terms, like, my business is wildly successful. Bye. Financial terms of, like, some other people on the Internet, then it's not. So, you know, like, it's. Yeah, I think. I think it is. Yeah. It's another area that needs so much work, isn't it? Like, so much shifting of our mindsets and.

Liz Mosley: Yeah, yeah. Lots to think about.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah. So you, like, have an, like, I do not do social media very well. It is something that I'm working on because I don't think that you have to have social media to have a successful business. I wholeheartedly believe that you don't have to. However, one of the things that I want to do more of is, like, be connected to the people that I want to be connected to and the people that I help. And I was listening to one of your podcast episodes. Your guest was Emily. I didn't write down her last name, but it was about building an honest business or being honest in your business.

Shannon Mattern: And she said something about, like, showing up on social media. She follows people because she wants to see more of them. She likes them. She wants to get to know them better. And I'm like, that's a good reason for me to be present on social media. And I'm sharing all this because you talked about the comparison of other people's businesses and lives and what we're seeing on social media in terms of what's successful and all of that. And just to kind of circle back to you, you seem to do social media really well as far as, like, I'm concerned, looking at what you do and what you post there. And it's, it's really inspiring.

Shannon Mattern: And I'm curious about, like, what your thoughts are in terms of, like, content creation and content consumption on social media and how you balance, like, being a creator and consuming and comparison and all of that.

Liz Mosley: Yeah, I mean, it's always a sort of, like, multifaceted, complex relationship, for sure. I think, like, I think you could go onto my instagram now and formulate, like, an opinion about it, but, oh, my goodness, it has taken me so long to get to this point. Like, I, you know, like, you see these people and they go viral and then, like, overnight they gain, like, 500,000 followers or whatever, you know, whatever insane number it is. And it literally took me ten years to get 10,000 followers. And it was like a real, real slog. I think the thing that helps me a lot is that I enjoy creating content. So for me, it's like another creative outlet. So, like, I've been really enjoying learning how to use premiere pro, and I get really excited when I learn something new with editing.

Liz Mosley: And, you know, I definitely really embrace, like, learning and experimenting in my business. And so I think that makes the content creation process, like, I guess, more enjoyable for me, I think because it's taken me such a long time, I don't get too caught up in the sort of, I guess, all the algorithm stuff, you know, like, it doesn't bother me too much because it took me so long to get there. So it's kind of just like, well, yeah, it's not like I had this, like, amazing engagement and then it suddenly dropped off. Like, it's just been sort of like this sort of slow, slow, slow journey. So I think that helps as well. I think in terms of consuming other people's content, like, I genuinely get really inspired seeing what other people are doing. Like, I love getting a glimpse into other people's lives. I do have to regularly remind myself that I'm seeing, like, I don't know, what, like 5% of their life, you know, such a small percentage of their lives.

Liz Mosley: And it's very easy to look at other people and think, well, they've got it all sorted, you know, like, their business looks, you know, really slick and well run. And I just feel like a chaotic mess most of the time. But then, like, you know, it's you. Every now and then something breaks through that and you're like, okay, everybody else, you know, like, even just the rejection challenge was such a good reminder to me that actually, you know, the reason that it resonated with so many people is because actually everybody is dealing with this. They don't necessarily talk about it and they're probably not going to broadcast what their latest rejection was. But I haven't come across anybody that hasn't had to deal with that. That's just not how we present ourselves online. So, yeah, I think that's a, that's a really hard one.

Liz Mosley: It's like, you know, constantly reminding ourselves, but I definitely go through phases where I realize I'm consuming too much and I need to go back to, like, I need to rebalance and get back to creating more than I'm consuming. And that just goes in, ebbs and flows. You know, like, I go through phases and then I sort of catch myself and I'm like, okay, this is, this has, like, got to unhealthy levels now of, like, consuming other people's content. Rein it in a bit and try and, you know, think how you can get back to enjoying creating and doing it on your terms.

Shannon Mattern: I love that. I mean, I love writing emails. I love podcasting. I want to love Instagram because I know it's a place to connect with real people, like, in real time and not like, behind the asynchronicity of a podcast or an email sending out. And so that's, I think that's my challenge. I am going to figure out a way to gamify that for myself.

Liz Mosley: Yeah, do it.

Shannon Mattern: Yes.

Liz Mosley: Turn everything. This is. I totally think this is it. You can turn everything into a challenge. So me and a friend of mine, Hannah, we did a real challenge. So we were like, okay, we're finding it really hard to do reels. Let's set ourselves a challenge to do one every day for a month. And what was really interesting is, like, for me, that, I mean, and I just learned so much from doing these things.

Liz Mosley: So one of the things that was so funny about that was I was like, oh, you know, in. In my head, I didn't say this to anybody, but in my head, I was like, oh, one of these videos is gonna go viral, and then this is it. This is going to be my big moment of, like, blowing up online. Anyway, that absolutely did not happen. I barely got any engagement on my reels. But what happened was, is that I sped up my process of improving making videos. So, you know, if I had been making maybe two reels a week over the course of, like, however many months, you know, what took me 30 days would have taken me, like, six months to do. And so.

Liz Mosley: And then what happened was I got better quicker. And then a few months after I'd done the challenge, one of my reels did go viral. I mean, it wasn't, like, big blow up, but, you know, like, it was. It was really cool. And it was for something that I took, you know, like, it was something related to my business, so it was genuinely, like, helpful. It brought me the right kind of followers and all that kind of thing. And that wouldn't have happened, I don't think, if I hadn't improved my confidence making video by doing that challenge. And so I think, like, the beauty of a challenge is you can do this, like, intense sprint, and it just speeds up your learning process.

Liz Mosley: And so I think I'm going to do it with all different aspects of my business. You know? Like, I'd love to spend a bit more time, like, working on LinkedIn. I've seen loads of creatives do really well there. And so I'm like, great. I'll set myself a challenge. I'll do a month. Like, I can keep that pace going for that amount of time. I'll learn a lot from it, and then I can take that going forward at a slower pace.

Shannon Mattern: That is brilliant that you said. I just want to say this again. A challenge is an intense sprint that speeds up your learning process. Like, you saying it that way, like, just shifted how I think about gamification and challenges. Like, any time there's, like, some kind of, like, marketing challenge out there, I'm like, eh, I'm not competitive. I'm not this. Like, I don't need, like, I have all of these reasons why that does not, like, hook me or resonate with me at all, because I'm like, I'm good. I'll learn that when I'm ready to learn that.

Shannon Mattern: But the way you just said it, I'm like, that is valuable to me. Like, an intense sprint that speeds up the learning process and, like, a container in which you've committed to do something. And also, I think part of, like, thinking back to, like, the gamification piece is, like, you think about the hero's journey in a game and, like, you don't know what you're going to learn about yourself and what you need to learn about yourself as you navigate something that you have been resistant to doing but you want to do. Like, I know I don't have to do instagram. I don't have to, like, have a presence there to be successful, but something. I keep having conversations with people like you and Gigi Devarajvili and, like, other people on the podcast about how they use it to connect with people. And I'm like, I want that. I want that.

Shannon Mattern: But I have this resistance to doing it. And I think that I'm going to uncover a lot about myself on the journey of doing it, and that's one good reason. But also speeding up the learning process. That was so brilliant. I'm just like, that just, like, got me really excited. So thank you for. Thank you for sharing that.

Liz Mosley: You're welcome. And also, I think I totally. I totally get your thing about not being competitive because for me, whenever I set these challenges, it's usually not about anybody else. It's just, it's a challenge with myself. And I think once you get out of that mindset of that, you're competing with other people and you're just competing with your, you know, like, you're just doing a challenge with yourself. Because I would be the same as you. Like, if it. If it's, like, competitive with other people, I'm like, oh, no, I'm not interested or even myself.

Shannon Mattern: Like, I don't need. Need to compete with myself either. Like, I'm like, that's okay. Yeah, yeah, I love that.

Liz Mosley: And I think you're right. Like, you don't have to be on social media for sure. Like, that is not what defines a successful business. But I, you know, I. I have always loved Instagram because of the community that I've built there and the people that I've met. And I think if that is something you know that you want, then, yeah, that's a great approach, great place to explore, I think.

Shannon Mattern: Well, yeah. And, like, with what you're doing with the build your brand podcast and getting sponsors and things, like, you know, Web designer Academy is our coaching program, profitable. Web designer is our podcast. But I have a bigger vision for how we can serve and support web designers. And part of that is like brand partnerships, sponsorships, collaborations, like, we host a summit every year and things like that. And I can add more value to those relationships, the more platforms I have available to promote and share. And that's another reason why I'm like, oh, building engaged Instagram following. Like I said, I don't need it to go viral or be these huge numbers or anything, but if I'm like, I know the right people are here and they're paying attention and they trust me to, like, vet good things for them and all of that, I think that that just, that helps everybody.

Shannon Mattern: So I have other reasons for doing it. And you're like, what you're doing with your podcast and your brand is like, very inspiring to me.

Liz Mosley: Oh, thanks.

Shannon Mattern: Not to, not to put you on the spot or anything, but no. So I know it's like late there for you and we didn't even get into, like, your background or how you got here. But I do have just a few more questions for you before we wrap up. And so a lot of our listeners are newbies to business or in those early years, and they're always asking, like, how do I, where do I find clients? How do I get clients? Where are all the, where are all the well paying clients hanging out? So I would love to know from you, like, going back to your early years in business, like, how did you get your first clients?

Liz Mosley: It was mostly word of mouth. So I started my business kind of on the, I, on the side of like a nine to five. So I was working in design, I was working in house, and then people started recommending me to their, like, relatives and their friends and stuff. And so I started taking jobs on, on the side. And I guess because I didn't have that much capacity, it felt like there was quite like an easy, steady flow of them. I didn't have to sort of really go looking too much. I think after that, like, I had, I have had the sort of like, steady word of mouth kind of aspect continue. I think, like, actually, Instagram has been really good, a good way for people to discover me.

Liz Mosley: I have had a lot of my clients come to me through Instagram now. I think it's a bit of a bigger picture where often they'll have listened to the podcast, they'll check out my Instagram, you know, like, there's a few different ways they can come in and they wouldn't necessarily pick one as the sort of like, you know, the maintain the main way. Like, I think, definitely just being visible and putting yourself out there and it's really hard to do. And I still really struggle with, like, sharing my work on social media. You know, I can chat about all other things, but I still find it hard to share my work on social media for, like, a whole mix of reasons. But when I do, you know, like, it does, it does have an impact. And, yeah, I think, you know, showing up, talking about what it is that you offer, not being afraid to talk about it over and over and over again. Because I think we all get into this thing where we feel.

Liz Mosley: We almost feel bored because this is what we talk about all day long. But actually, our audience isn't bored because they're seeing, you know, your content is like a drop in a sea of content that they're seeing. And, you know, a bunch of them will miss it and so they need, they need to hear it, you know, like, and it's like classic marketing things where, you know, what is it? People have to have seen something eleven times before. They're, like, willing to. It might not be eleven. I can't remember what the number is, but there's a lot of times, I think it used to be seven. Who knows how much it is now? But I think we just always need that reminder, don't we? Like, you've got to keep saying it over and over again and keep reminding people that you're there. Like, I've definitely had situations where I was like, oh, I should just send out an email about this.

Liz Mosley: And it just happened to be the right time for someone, and that's exactly what they needed. And they were like, oh, Liz, I was thinking of getting in touch with you and your email reminded me. So just being visible, like, building our own strong brands, I think as creatives, that's often quite hard to do. You know, like, we do it for other people. Doing those tasks for yourself are really hard, but really making sure that you make time to invest in that for your own business as well has really helped. That's a long answer to a simple question.

Shannon Mattern: Sorry, it's so good. And I was thinking as you were sharing that, I'm like, oh, telling people how you can work with them, telling people what you do, like, that's all the same as pitching, it's the same as outreach. There's probably some reject fear of rejection behind any resistance people have about doing that. And that gets to count as one of your, um, yeah, collecting rejections of, like, every time I share about what I do and, you know, whatever the reactions are, like, I get to put that on my list and gamify that, too. And just not make that, not make people's reaction or lack of reaction mean anything about me. And, yeah, that's just you. I totally feel you when it comes to, like, oh, I keep talking about like, web designer academy, like, over and over and over again. I'm like, I'm being too salesy.

Shannon Mattern: I'm being too whatever. And it's like I, you know, can't, I have come to the realization that I can't say it enough. I think I read a statistic recently that it's like it takes 7 hours of content consumption for like a high ticket sale, 7 hours. And I'm like, okay, when, when we feel like our consultations with people are too long or our proposal includes too much information or the, you know, the process that we lead them through from like, consultation to closing the sale is just like, oh, I'm like, I need to make it easy, like, or shorter or whatever. It's like all of that time is just building trust. Like, it's all just building trust. Of course you don't want to like, waste people's time, but like, at the same time, it's like we're bombarded with content and it just takes a lot more to, to get through, like you said. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern: So that was, that was very insightful. I asked this question to everybody that comes on the, the podcast and it is what belief about yourself did you have to change to get to where you are today?

Liz Mosley: Oh, that is, that is such a good question. I think when I was at university, I got a very specific view of what I felt the design industry was like. And it was very male dominated, it was very competitive and I just didn't like it. And so I kind of checked out of it and I basically, I got my, like, jobs in design and I was comfortable and I did my thing, but I wasn't very ambitious. And so I basically was like, I don't want to compete with these people, so I'm just going to check out completely. And I guess I told myself a story that I wasn't good enough to compete with these people or, you know, built this story in my head. And then I, since starting my own business, I have gone, I've sort of, I guess, changed that mindset and being like, actually, no, I do belong here. I am part of this industry and I'm going to take up space in this industry.

Liz Mosley: Yes, it might be uncomfortable and yes, I might feel like I don't belong, but actually I get to decide whether I belong here or not. I'm not going to let other people sort of define that for me. And so I think that's been the biggest shift for me, is accepting my place, I guess, in this particular industry. And it's probably, like, different in different countries as to sort of what it looks like. But, yeah.

Shannon Mattern: Wow. I get to decide whether I belong here or not. That gave me chills. Like, I think I have a million more questions I could ask you, but I think that is the perfect place to wrap up this episode. Can you tell our listeners where they could go to learn more about you and subscribe to your podcast and, you know, just get in your world?

Liz Mosley: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, definitely. Come listen to the podcast. It's called building your brand, and you can find it wherever you listen to podcasts. I've got actually, I just launched a new website for it, which is buildingyourbrand.net. so that's like a really lovely experience. You can go and find all the episodes there and lots of other goodies. To find out more about my work, you can head to lizmosley.net, and then instagram is where I spend most of my time hanging out.

Liz Mosley: So you can come and follow me. I'm moseley, and if you want to ask me any follow up questions, I'd be absolutely happy to answer them. And I would love. Yeah, I'd love to get to know some of your podcast listeners as well.

Shannon Mattern: They are awesome humans, so I would love for them, if they don't already listen to your show, to go check it out. So I will link up everything that we talked about in the show notes. Liz, this has been awesome. Thank you so, so much for being here. I really appreciate it.

Liz Mosley: Thank you for having me. I've had a great time.