#134 – How to Sell with Integrity with Tom Jackobs of Selling with H.E.A.R.T.

Shannon Mattern (00:02.781)

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Profitable Web Designer podcast. Today I am joined by Tom Jacobs who helps entrepreneurs navigate the world of converting leads into paying clients using his selling with heart method. So Tom, welcome to the show.

Tom Jackobs (00:21.198)

Thanks, Shannon, for having me. I really appreciate it. Excited to be here.

Shannon Mattern (00:25.235)

Yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you today because you've been an entrepreneur for over 30 years. And I was reading in your book that in 2018, you made the shift to helping other entrepreneurs with sales. So I'd love to just start with you just kind of sharing more about you and then telling me about that journey.

Tom Jackobs (00:49.952)

Yeah, yeah, 30 years. Whenever I hear that, I'm like, I'm old now, but I started believing or not. started my entrepreneurial journey when I was 16 years old, when I had a string quartet and DJ business and we would do weddings bar mitzvahs.

Shannon Mattern (00:53.788)

Yeah.

Tom Jackobs (01:09.998)

homecomings and things like that. But it was the first time and I didn't realize I was doing this, but I was doing direct marketing before I knew what direct marketing was, where I would go through the Sunday paper when there was a paper and I would go to a while ago. It's like, what is it? 1986? Yeah. 86. So that was when I was I go through the Sunday paper, look at the wedding announcements.

I would find the bride because the engagement announcements, they would have the bride's name, of course. I would then go to the white pages, the phone book, and I would look up the bride's name and they would have the address there. Of course, this was 1980s and we published everybody's personal information for any creep to go to, including me. And I would write a letter and send a demo tape. And that's how I got

business for my high school, my high school string quartet, which was, which was a lot of fun. but it, I look back at that now I'm like, my gosh, that was, that was actually pretty smart. Like, how did I know how to do that? And I didn't have to invest in any like Dan Kennedy marketing stuff, all that. But then, you know, I went to school and do all that. And my, biggest kind of business was my fitness business that I opened in 2008 and

Every other business that I had prior to that was always with a safety net because I always had a corporate job. And so it was okay to fail and try new things. It was just kind an experimental thing, but nothing really took off during that time because I always had a safety net. And I think that was, that was the key. And, and I shouldn't say just the safety net, but it was also the comfort of a

kind of a steady paycheck and not putting all my effort into one thing. my effort was split. And so the side hustle never really got the attention that it really deserved. But when I did my fitness business, I quit my day job. I had done all the prep. It's not like the Instagram influencers these days that are talking about just burn the bridges, just go all in, forget everything else, just do it and then you'll float.

Tom Jackobs (03:37.682)

Yeah, maybe. But the waters are so rough in entrepreneurship. So I had saved up. I'd made sure that I had a plan in place before I quit my six figure job in corporate America and oil and gas and went into owning a fitness and personal training studio. And within six months, I was almost broke because I did not know how to sell. And that was my Achilles heel, my

My really my biggest weak spot in business was sales because I was the way I was raised was salespeople were bad, never trust a salesperson. They're just out to get you. And of course, when that programming happens, then you're like, well, I don't want to be a salesperson because I don't want to be the bad person that mom and dad were always talking about. And so I had to make a shift in my psychology and just how I framed what sales was and

because I was almost going broke, was desperate to find solutions to my problem. And so I hired a coach that was specific to fitness. And she helped me identify one that sales was my problem, and then how to reframe that, but also encouraged me to do research into sales, sales psychology, human psychology, and why people buy. And so I dove deep because I'm a geek at heart, and I love just learning new stuff. And I

started to develop a program or a system of selling that just felt really natural to me, which was all about solving the problem that the prospect had. mean, prior to doing this, I was selling workouts. And what is it that people that want to lose weight and get healthy and fit don't want to do? They don't want to work out. They'd rather take, you know,

Uzempic or that magic pill potion or whatever and make it all happen magically. Well, unfortunately that doesn't happen. And when you're trying to sell something that people don't want, generally they don't buy, which is amazing. It's logical. So I had to shift. What is it that I'm really selling? I'm selling the result. I'm selling more energy. I'm selling, selling, feeling and looking better. And once I realized that, I was like, my gosh.

Tom Jackobs (05:55.688)

this is so much easier because now I'm talking about what it is they will get out of investing in my program. And once I had perfected kind of this sales system, I had two consultations set up on the same day. I had a presentation that I put together that I was going to take them through. had all my questions that I was going to ask as well to understand what the problem was and all that.

And so I had two people signed up for this to come to the consultation. The first one, he didn't buy. He was an idiot. We'll forget about him. The second person, Sharon, and I remember her and I'll remember her forever because she completely changed my outlook on sales. So Sharon, we sat down. I went through my questions, which now have evolved into my what, why, what, why framework of questioning.

Shannon Mattern (06:28.787)

Ha ha ha.

Tom Jackobs (06:46.19)

I went through what the program would do for her to address the exact issues. And then at the end of it, I said, okay, Sharon, well, based on my experience and what you were telling me, I really suggest that you do our 100 session package and that investment is just $5,500.

And then I just zipped it up, let her make a decision. Cause that was one of the keys that I'd heard that, you know, the first person who talks is the buyer and I wasn't going to buy her excuses. She was buying my program. So, and that was like the longest, like it was probably like five seconds really. But in my mind, I was going.

I should have offered her 50 sessions instead of 100. She's not going to buy 100 sessions. That's too expensive. Like I wouldn't buy that. wait. You know what? I should just give her a free session to try it out and see if she's just all that kind of mind trash that goes on. And then so I just zipped it up. I put those words in the back of my mind. And then she said, OK, let's do it. Here's my credit card. And I think.

What came out of my mouth next was, you sure? Which is completely the wrong thing that you should say when somebody's wanting to invest $5,500 in your program. But I took her credit card, ran it through and I was like, my God, it went through. Cause I'd never processed a card, you know, for $5,500 before. And so that completely changed the trajectory of my business.

The next next year I forexed my revenue. and it just continued to grow. And after nine and half years, I, sold the business, for a profit and, moved on to coaching other folks on how to sell with heart, which is what I'm calling it now.

Shannon Mattern (08:41.779)

I love that story so much. You took me back to when I got my first job at 16. I'm like, I got it from the classified ads. I literally opened up the newspaper and circled this number with a pencil and got my first job. we're in that similar era of having to figure out things before.

Tom Jackobs (09:01.56)

Yes.

Shannon Mattern (09:09.807)

social media and all of that. yeah, and one of the things that really jumped out at me is that our listeners, like if you're a freelancer, you're a salesperson. Like you are a salesperson if you are, if you're, you know, selling your services to other people. And so it's, it's, it is, it's one of those things where it's like, it's,

Tom Jackobs (09:12.792)

with the internet.

Shannon Mattern (09:39.987)

People think of it as a necessary evil, but if you can shift how you think of it as a gift to the person that you're talking to, I just think that it opens up a whole new paradigm for you. also, because I was just like you, would like, if I had to go to a car dealership or even just buy a car from an individual,

I was just like so on the defensive immediately because of my like, I'm going to get ripped off. I'm going to like this person is the worst and like they're just trying to help me buy something that I need. And so I think I say all of this to say as freelancers, like, yes, getting great at sales is going to be huge for you. And also

Tom Jackobs (10:19.576)

Yeah. Exactly.

Shannon Mattern (10:35.539)

The message that I say on this podcast all the time is like you are not selling a website. If you want to like no one wants to buy a website. If they are shopping for a website, they are going to be shopping for like the cheapest thing that they can buy. And like if you're selling a website and you're trying to get people to like hire you versus doing it themselves or hiring like a freelancer on Fiverr.

And you're both selling a website. You're going to have such a hard time breaking out of that, like under $1,000 price range. You have to shift what you're selling. And so when we got connected and we started talking and, you know, I got my hands on your book. I'm like, we have to talk about this because that is the core of your message about sales is getting

like shifting how you think about what you're selling completely.

Tom Jackobs (11:38.67)

Exactly. And yeah, and I would invite your listeners to change sales into problem solving. So you're no longer a salesperson, you're a problem solver. Those.

Business owners are coming to you with a problem. The problem is that they don't have a website. Everybody has a, maybe they don't have a website, anybody can build a website with Wix or whatever very easy, very inexpensively. But what they're really, I'm guessing what they really want, and correct me if I'm wrong here Shannon, is they want to get more leads. They want more business. They want to increase their business.

What's the best way of doing that? Getting a lead generation site that is creating more business for them. So if you're just marketing websites, whoop de doo, you're going to be competing on price all day long. But if you are a business builder and you are going to create a website that brings them more business, they're going to be a customer for life.

Shannon Mattern (12:48.433)

Yep, exactly. so you decided to sell your business and go all in on teaching other entrepreneurs this sales method. Can you talk more about like really how you help someone? how do you, what is your selling with heart method and

How can people apply it in their business?

Tom Jackobs (13:20.408)

Yeah. Great. Great question. So, it was, was really interesting. was when I exited the business, I'd already been coaching, people while I was still on the business because I was, I was bored. Quite frankly, I was bored with the fitness. And so I was like, I really love coaching people on sales. And so, you know, it was time to exit, the business, it.

And at first I was I was struggling as a sales coach. I was like, how do I message myself? How do I get out there? And I I was before I moved overseas, I went to be an eye group. So networking meetings every single Wednesday at 7 a.m. I'm not a morning person. So I would get up every morning, go to these networking events. And I was doing it for my fitness business and it was it was great for that. And then I started shifting to the sales and I was like, gosh, this is

It's not getting me any leads. Nobody's giving me referrals because my little 30 second talk was, hi, Tom Jacobs here. I'm the sales coach for small businesses who want to increase their sales and, you know, train their staff to be better salespeople. Pretty generic. Right. And I would do that for like a month and nothing was happening. So I was working with a coach, a branding coach, and he suggested, well, one, you're too broad, like

narrow it down to something like who are you going to help? Not just small businesses. I was like, I don't want to like get like not be available to other people. And he was like, no, no, no, that's not how it works. And it truly is counterintuitive that when I niche down and, I just, I was like, well, there's a lot of insurance agents that come to these. So maybe I'll be the sales coach for insurance agents. Why not?

So the next meeting I go to, I stand up and I say, hey, I'm Tom Jacobs. I specifically help insurance agents double their sales and have their staff more effective in making sales calls through my special sales program. If you know of anybody that could use that, please see me after. And I tell you what, that day I had three people come up to me and ask me if I could help them. And not a single one of them was an insurance agent.

Tom Jackobs (15:36.238)

I had a mold remediation company. had a CPA and I forget who the other person was, but it would, mean, I was like, wait a second. I've been saying this for the last four weeks and all of you have been here all these last four weeks. Why now? It was because I was an expert and specialized in one thing. And so when I, when I engage with people to start with, I go through the heart method now.

And because it really resonates with me and I think it resonates with those that are business owners and don't like the idea of having to sell. because really at the ultimate, what we're doing is we're problem solving. So we're shifting that mindset first off when I start working with people, we're problem solvers. We're not necessarily salespeople.

And then I work through the HEART. So it's an acronym. If you look for the book on Amazon, you do have to put the periods in there to find it. So it's H period, E period, A period, R period, T period. And it stands for hugs, engage, ask, refer, testimonial.

Shannon Mattern (16:40.819)

you

Tom Jackobs (16:47.98)

And that is a surefire way of doubling your business in six months. When you implement all of those aspects and people might referals and testimonials. How is that part of sales? And it's absolutely part of sales because when you get a new client, you deliver great results to them. You need to be asking them for referrals and a testimonial because that's going to make your other sales so much easier. Because now you have

both referrals coming in as well as testimonials, people can see what you're doing. But primarily on the sales conversation, we start with the H.E.A. and that's the hugs is basically rapport building. And that starts off the first moment somebody learns about you. It could be an ad on Facebook. It could be a talk that you gave at an event. It could be a lot of different ways. But I like the word eight hugs.

One, because it started with H and it's part of heart. But also you think about a nice warm embrace. It just feels good and makes you feel safe and ready to open up. And that's what you want your prospect to be able to do is open up and explain what their problems are. If they're guarded and especially in health and wellness, a lot of people don't want to talk about their personal problems, but also for business owners, entrepreneurs, they don't necessarily want to say that, you know what?

If I don't get some leads in here, if I don't get a new website in three months, I'm going to be out of business. You know, that is the emotion that you need to get to. And people aren't going to do that unless they feel safe in sharing that with you. And that's why hugs is really important. Engage then is the meat of the conversation. And that includes the questioning, which I have a framework called what, why, what, And

I live in Taiwan, I'm learning Chinese and that is not the Chinese word, but it does sound like several that I've learned. make that as an aside. But the what, why, what, why is the four questions that you would need to ask to elicit what the problem is, why it's important to them to solve it, what they have tried in the past or what they're trying now to solve that problem. And then why now is the right time for them to make a change?

Tom Jackobs (19:14.828)

And with those four questions, you might have to drill down a little bit on each of those to get to the emotional response. But that's really all you need to understand what the problem is. But not just you understanding what that is. It's also what the prospect understands their problem to be. Because a lot of times it's the first time that they're talking about their problems openly and out loud and they're hearing themselves. They're like, crap, I really need to make a change.

because of all this problems going on. then after you engage, then you want to mirror back what you heard them say during the questioning. let me just repeat back what I heard you say was, this is your goal. This is why it's not working for you now. And this is why you need it now. I tell you what, when you mirror back, this is just a great conversational technique anyway, especially if you have an argument with a spouse or significant other.

personal experience. So it's really good to just mirror back, let me just make sure I understood what you're saying. And that shows that you're listening and actively listening and understand their problem. And it's probably one of the first times that that prospect will have heard, been heard and feel heard and understood. And it's really very powerful. And then after you do the mirror, then you go into your presentation. And this is where a lot so the sale is already made.

at this point. So through the questioning and through the mirror back, the prospect has made a decision. And I really strongly believe they've made that decision. So it's up to the salesperson to screw it up as they go through the presentation. And this is actually where a lot of business owners and problem solvers now make a mistake. And they like to tell exactly what the program is all about and how great it is.

all the technology we're going to use. Yeah, we're going to build it on a WordPress site that's going to have all this like sparkles and fireworks are going to go off when people land on your website and blah, blah, blah, too much detail. And then the prospect is going to be like, let me think about it. That's a lot to digest. During the presentation, you need to relate the solution to the exact problems that they told you about. And when you do that, they're going, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tom Jackobs (21:41.346)

And then at the end of your presentation, you go, well, is that the approach you're looking for? And they're like, yeah, absolutely. Here's my credit card. Take my money. And then you don't, and that's the A is ask. And a lot of people are like, okay, well, how do I ask somebody for the sale? No, no, no, no. I always like to flip things around. The ask should be the prospect asking you to enroll in your program, not you having to ask them.

And that's the heart selling process right there in 10 minutes. I'm sorry, it took so long to explain.

Shannon Mattern (22:17.349)

No, I love this. And as you were sharing that, was thinking, what's some of the mind trash that gets in people's way in terms of just the first three steps? What are some common thought patterns or beliefs that you see that

prevent people from starting with the hug, moving into engagement. you know, like you said earlier, like where they get in their own way and they it's theirs to lose and they, you know, either don't ask or don't create space for the prospect to ask or, whatever. What are some common mind trashy thoughts people have?

Tom Jackobs (23:06.668)

Yeah. Yeah. Love that. Yeah. The, the, the first thing is in the hugs and I'm, I'm an introvert by nature, believe it or not. And in an empath. So like that combination, just, I just want to get to the point, right. And, and, and action oriented as well. So that's like the perfect combination, I think for crazy, but I just want to get to the point.

And so I often have in the past skipped over the rapport building and then I never make the sale because I haven't established a level of trust in that relationship straight off. I just go right in. Okay, what's the issue? What are you trying to do? And then they're like, it's too much too soon. You know, it's like going on our first date and so, okay, so next week we get married.

Not going to happen, right? Well, it shouldn't happen. You're in Vegas or something like that. So, that's the first thing is skipping, skipping that step, but also skipping any of the steps. was just reverting, viewing, reviewing a sales call from a client and the prospect was a very dominant prospect. So they wanted to take control of the conversation. I'm sure you've had lots of these types of prospects.

I go, okay, yeah, yeah. So tell me the price, tell me that. And then the salesperson was fairly new salesperson went right into the presentation. Didn't establish any trust with report, a little bit of report, but not, not quite enough. Didn't ask any questions about what the problem was, why they were looking for a solution now, why it was important, just the what, why, what, why. And so at the end of it, then the prospect is like, okay, yeah, I'm still a little confused about what I actually get.

yeah, I'll think about it. I'll give you a call back. And of course they're not going to call back. It's just a nice way of saying, yep, not going to buy. So skipping that process and understanding what the problem is. lot of salespeople want to skip that because they believe they already know what the problem is of the prospect. And I'm like, yeah, they need lead generation. I know that. Let me just explain what I do and just cut to this chase. But what that

Tom Jackobs (25:27.234)

doesn't do is allow the prospect to verbalize what their problem is so they hear it. The questioning isn't so much for the salesperson. It's really for the prospect to hear themselves say what the problem is. Because if you as a salesperson tell somebody, well, obviously the problem is this, this, this, and this, and I can solve it by doing this and this. They're going to take it with a grain of salt because you're the salesperson. You have an ulterior motive, right? You're wanting to make a sale.

So, having them answer those questions and verbalize what the problem is and everything like that. Now they don't lie to themselves. Usually we don't lie to ourselves. We believe everything that comes out of our own mouth. So they start to believe what they're telling. And then when you present the solution and saying, you know, when you said that, you're only getting like two leads a month, but you're getting all this traffic to your website. Well,

I address that by looking at heat maps on and where people are actually clicking. And then we're going to put the buttons where actually people click so that you get more leads. You always want to bring back to what the problem is and how you're going to solve it for them. And you get a prospect. I mean, the alternate to that would be, yeah, we'd be, build a beautiful website for you. You're going to be super proud of it. People are going to love it. You know, we're going to look at, you know, conversions and all that as well.

not quite as powerful as saying, because you want more leads, we're going to do this, this, and this. And that's going to get you more leads. So you're just kind of reframing it and showing that you're solving their problem. And then you go on to the next feature that solves the problem. Those are the main things.

Shannon Mattern (27:12.403)

I think the way that you said that the what, why, what, why questions are not for you as the salesperson, that they are for the prospect to like have some space to think about that for themselves, to verbalize it to you because they believe the things that they think and say.

I've never heard that like that before. That is like such an important nuance of, yes, exactly. Like a mind blowing, such an important nuance because, know, when you're thinking about like quote unquote qualifying prospects, right? Like, and you're like, tell me about your business, some of your challenges, you know, all of the things and you're thinking like, well,

I need this information so that I can help, you know, explain the solutions and whatever, but I've never heard, and it makes so much sense, so much sense that they need to understand it themselves and believe what they're saying themselves so that you can, that's where like resonance happens, you know, if they're not already,

like connected to what their problem is, you telling them what their problem is is just gonna feel like you parenting them or trying to manipulate them or, you know, being like an authority figure or a bad salesperson. And so you're gonna like, even if it was the same exact words, without them saying it first, I feel like it could go,

such a completely different way and you're like, but I said the same words that I said that I would have said, but you said them first.

Tom Jackobs (29:15.214)

Yep. Yeah, exactly. And then when you repeat it back, now they're getting it a second time paraphrased by you and then agreed to by them. Like, well, let me make sure I got this right. Like you're suffering from this, this and this and blah, blah, blah. And they're going, yes. crap. Yeah, that's really a problem. And so that and that's why I say the sale is made at that point.

Shannon Mattern (29:19.644)

Fascinating.

Shannon Mattern (29:45.339)

Yeah, we've built trust. We've established that I understand what you need and you believe that I understand what you need. So important. Because I think the biggest thing that I hear from my audience, the listeners of this podcast, our students, is they...

Tom Jackobs (29:57.678)

Yeah. 100%. Yeah. I'm you highlighted that.

Shannon Mattern (30:13.235)

Even if you say, you're a sales person, you're not a sales person, you're a solution creator provider, all of these things, they still have this thing inside of them. They're like, I just want something from them. I want money. I need to make money. I'm greedy. so going through this process, any sales process to them feels...

Tom Jackobs (30:32.216)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (30:43.355)

kind of manipulative to them at their core. How do you help someone get past something like that?

Tom Jackobs (30:45.282)

Yeah.

Tom Jackobs (30:52.632)

Well, it really is a mindset shift that comes from practice. Cause I, if you compare and compare and contrast the way that they were selling before and then give them this new sales structure and sell from heart now, it's just going to feel a lot better.

Shannon Mattern (31:13.906)

Yeah.

Tom Jackobs (31:14.798)

instantly and that's going to boost the confidence. know, just thinking back to Sharon, who was the first person to buy, like I, I was selling 10 sessions at a time was like the max. And, and if you bought 10, you would get one for free or for $600. And I was like, this is re like, this is ridiculous because I have to resell somebody every 10 sessions. Right. And then, but I had that.

level of, I can only make $600 each time I see somebody. And then having her purchase $5,500 like that, it's like, my gosh, this is incredible. And it completely shifted my whole idea and it propelled me forward for years. I mean, that's what started my progression to where I am today.

Shannon Mattern (32:07.237)

And Sharon believed in herself. It wasn't about you.

Tom Jackobs (32:12.982)

No, it wasn't. It was about the result that she wanted and then her ability to follow a program to get that result. And, you know, she was a client for, I think like three years, three or four years. So it went far beyond the first hundred sessions. You she, she continued on and she's, she bought my motorcycle actually. Come to think of it. I should put her name on.

Shannon Mattern (32:34.995)

Chan sounds awesome. Yeah, no, and it's just, I think that like it's a self-belief thing. you know, if you feel like by offering someone, I think one, it's like the shift of what am I selling? I'm not selling a website, I'm selling an outcome. Two, I've gone through these first three steps to confirm.

without a shadow of a doubt that this is an outcome that someone really truly wants and needs and would have a big impact in their life. I've taken the time to actually do that and listen to them and hear them and understand. How is it greedy to then say I can help you with that? You know, exactly. Yeah.

Tom Jackobs (33:25.398)

not. know, yeah, selling selling is serving. At the end of the day, you you are helping somebody solve a problem that they have. And yeah, there are sleazy salespeople that will will, you know, sell ice to an Eskimo. And I think that's the worst saying ever one because it's kind of racist now. But also because why would you sell something to somebody that doesn't need it?

Shannon Mattern (33:31.026)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (33:50.376)

Yeah.

Tom Jackobs (33:51.682)

Which is ridiculous. Like somebody told me that once I was like, that's kind of offensive. Cause like, I would never sell, you know, ice to a somebody that has ice around them all the time.

Shannon Mattern (34:03.568)

Yeah, yeah. So it's like a self-concept adjustment, you know, in getting into these strategies. So you've made like at the point of you're at the A, the ask, which if you've done your job, they're like, okay, tell me how to work with you. Then what?

Tom Jackobs (34:04.686)

I

Tom Jackobs (34:10.858)

Mm. Yeah.

Tom Jackobs (34:29.804)

You take payment, get them started. Don't delay. And you know what? This is like a minor thing, but can turn into a major thing, is making it difficult for people to pay you. Like, I don't get it. It's like, let me send you a link. No, just take the damn card. Like, it's 16 digits and three on the back. Come on. It's not that difficult. Plug it into Stripe.

Shannon Mattern (34:31.443)

You

Shannon Mattern (34:43.291)

Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (34:48.945)

Hahaha.

Tom Jackobs (34:55.06)

I don't take American Express. Take American Express. Take DiscoverCard. Take cash. Take a goat. Make it easy for people to pay you. there's so many businesses that prevent sales from actually... I worked at one corporate corporation that had a department that people called the sales reversal department because they were always just making it really difficult for things to happen.

And so sales would always fall apart once it got into that department. I was like, you know, because it's too difficult. So just make it easy for people to, pay you. and then of course, if there's objections, if they don't ask, you should ask. And then if they say, I'm not quite sure. Like money might be an issue. timing might be an issue, things like that. Then you just need to handle those objections. And I go through.

Shannon Mattern (35:30.983)

Yeah.

Tom Jackobs (35:50.094)

a series of ways of handling those objections. It's in the book, but also part of the program as well.

Shannon Mattern (35:56.133)

Amazing. So tell me about R &T.

Tom Jackobs (36:01.358)

Yeah, so refer, I was like RNT, what are you talking about? I did, that's rest of heart, The bigger picture of heart. So referral and testimonial. So there's, there's good ways and bad ways of asking for referrals. The bad way is right after you make the sale, ask for a referral. That's the worst time to ask somebody, because they don't have, they don't have any proof that you can do what you say you

Shannon Mattern (36:03.251)

Yeah, I could have been more clear on that question. Yes. Yeah.

Tom Jackobs (36:30.254)

you're going to do. And so why would they refer you to somebody? So like, always get really upset once I buy something and salesperson says, give me the names of 10 people that could use this too. I'm like, you know what? Rip up that contract. I'm out. I'm done. I don't want, I don't want to do this. so after you get success with a client, and so I always like to do like 30 day check-ins, like after they've signed up for a service, do a 30 day check-in and

see how they're doing. And during that time, if they're like, man, this is like, everything's working great. Really love the program. So and so to work with is really great to work with. awesome. Hey, you know what? You know, you're getting some really great results. Do you know of anybody that could benefit from what we do? And like, yeah, could think of a few people. Cool. Hey, I have these gift cards and this is just one tactic to use, but I have these gift cards.

I have three of them left. Do you mind handing those out to three people that could use our help? it's a gift from you for $100 off my service or whatever you want to do. It's $100 off the services. Plus, when they come in and redeem that, I'll give you $100 off your next bill. Win, win, win. And it's a nice way, too, to just kind of ease into that referral. Because a lot of people, they're like, yeah, I know some people, but I don't know how to refer them to you.

Shannon Mattern (37:47.581)

Yeah.

Tom Jackobs (37:57.516)

And so you just make it easy for them. So when I had the fitness business, I had these plastic gift cards made up. They look like credit cards. They had the 16 digits on the front. They had the magnetic strip on the back. So it had that image of intrinsic value and plus a recyclable. So when they came back in, I just like recycled them throughout. And it was a gift that kept on giving. And it just made it really easy for people to to refer.

to us. Now what I do is I just ask people for a warm introduction through email. So if you do like if you're not in person with people and say, Hey, do you mind doing a warm intro with us? Just, you know, copy us both on an email. Tell me a little bit about them. You tell them about me and then I'll take it from there. Really easy, very comfortable to do it that way. So referrals very important to do it the right way and to do it consistently as well. They just

Create a program where you just know to ask for referrals. And then the second, the testimonial is at that same time when they're super elated with the process. Maybe it's once you've completed the program and they've gotten some really great results with them. They're loving their website. Say, hey, do you mind if we just jump on Zoom real quick? And I'd love to do an interview with you and do a case study so that we can share the success that you're getting with other people and kind of motivate them to.

do better in business. And when you frame it like that versus, hey, you want to give me a testimonial? Yeah, I guess I could give you a test. Whatever. You know, that's, but if you do, hey, can I interview you for a case study? And then do a video because that's really important. Because then you see the person giving the testimonial is very, powerful. It's not something that you can make up.

Right. A written testimonial on a website, you know, I take those as a grain of salt, unless it's a screenshot from, you know, a review on Google or something like that. Those are also very powerful to use, but those testimonials, you you should be getting like. Every client should be giving you a testimonial. I have a friend that runs a marketing company specifically for fitness entrepreneurs, and he has a hundreds of testimonials and they aren't just.

Tom Jackobs (40:18.914)

like Zoom calls testimonials, he goes to their facility with a film crew or with a video crew and they do like a full blown like little mini story and there's really engaging and it's just. know, people are pre sold before they ever show up. It makes the sales so much, so much easier. That's the R and the T of heart. It's the full package, the full.

Shannon Mattern (40:46.336)

Those are such great ideas. I love how you're like still like.

you're still hugging them throughout the R and the T process, right? Like you're still making it easy for them. You're making it feel safe. You're, you know, helping them be helpful to other people. You're making them look good. You know, if they're going to like do a testimonial for you, it's like, I'm going to do all the work. You just have to like show up. I love giving testimonials when I'm asked for testimonials, but also I'm like, this is on my to-do list now.

Tom Jackobs (41:00.952)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (41:26.463)

And it might sit there for six weeks before I finally like clean out my inbox and finally get to it. And you know, if someone's like, here, like I just made it super easy for you. I'm like, cool. I can like check that off my list. So I love that you're still nurturing the relationship after the sale while you're leveraging that relationship to help you help more people. I think that's awesome. So brilliant.

Tom Jackobs (41:26.627)

Yep.

Tom Jackobs (41:55.31)

Well, it also goes towards the lifetime value of a client because that first transaction doesn't have to be the last transaction.

that creating that lifetime value is all about taking care of them, solving their problem, and then introducing other things that you could help them with to solve other problems. Maybe the new website is getting so many leads that it creates another problem for them that they don't have enough systems on the backend. And maybe you can start a project to create a backend system for them from their website or whatever. There's so many different things that can happen to

deepen the relationship with those existing customers and keep them for life.

Shannon Mattern (42:40.205)

And I feel like the lifetime value is just exponential when they are your brand ambassadors and they're going and telling everybody about you because they're like, I have, this is my person. Like you, and then the trust is transferred from them to whoever they talk to. And it makes your life easier when you go to talk to that person. Like they already trust you because their friend trusts you.

Tom Jackobs (43:05.774)

I have a current client right now that, one, she's my best client, spent tons of money, easily six figures with us in the last four years, and has referred 12 people this year alone. mean, and just, it's doubled her own, the amount that she's already paid. It's already doubled.

the lifetime value that she's provided because of all the other people that she brings on board. So it's just, it's amazing when one, when you provide a great service and get the results that they're looking for, but also create that relationship. that's long-term sales is, is really all about relationships. It's not a one and done transaction.

Yeah, I always, I always thought, gosh, real estate must be such a difficult business because it's, like you buy a house once. No, you don't. Like I've bought and sold like five houses, I think. And when you find that one realtor professional that just really connects with you, it's easy to do business with. You start, you know, repeat business, a lifetime value happens.

Tom Jackobs (44:23.254)

way business is supposed to be. It's supposed to be easy and good.

Shannon Mattern (44:29.341)

So good. So can you share with our listeners a little bit more about how they can connect with you and get in your world and just learn sales from you?

Tom Jackobs (44:30.286)

So can you share with her?

Tom Jackobs (44:41.614)

Yeah, absolutely. So my website's probably the best, best place to start. and actually I have a free training and it's on the what why, what why process. it's script training. I think we'll put that into, I'll give that to you so you can put it into the show notes, it's Tom Jacobs.com slash script dash training. And that will take you through the what why, what why process and kind of get you into my world as well.

And then you can connect with me through the website or I'm pretty active on YouTube. So Tom Jacobs there as well. And on Instagram, I'm impact pilot because I provide impact for people, not trashing planes.

Shannon Mattern (45:33.307)

And for all of our listeners, Jacobs is spelled J-A-Z-K-O-B-S and you can get Tom's book Selling with Heart over on your website as well, right? It's for sale there.

Tom Jackobs (45:45.184)

Yes, it is. It's also on Amazon and Audible as well if you're more into Audible listening. And it's only 100 pages and the Audible is I think an hour long. So it's a pretty quick read.

Shannon Mattern (46:01.199)

It's jam packed full of goodness too. So definitely get your hands on that. thank you so much for being here. This conversation was fascinating. I learned a lot. know our listeners did. So yeah, thank you so much for your time.

Tom Jackobs (46:17.998)

Well, thank you, Shannon, for having me. really appreciate it and best of luck to you with your podcast and your business and best of luck to everybody that is working on the website business. Congrats.

Shannon Mattern (46:30.813)

Thank you so much.