#119 – Attracting High-Paying Web Design Clients: Pauline’s Pricing Breakthrough

Shannon Mattern (00:01.669)

Hello everyone and welcome back to the profitable web designer podcast. And today I am joined by one of our current web designer Academy students, Pauline Wiles. And I'm just really excited to have you here today, Pauline, to share more about your business and what you do and just some of the breakthroughs that you've had in your web design business journey. So welcome to the show, Pauline.

Pauline Wiles (00:28.642)

Thank you, Shannon. It's really nice to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Shannon Mattern (00:33.131)

You are so welcome. So we've chatted several times before this podcast episode, and you've just really blown me away with how much of an action taker you are and the results that you've created. And we'll get to all of that. But I would love to kind of go back to the beginning.

And I'd love to know a little bit about your web design business journey. like, what led you to start a web design business in the first place?

Pauline Wiles (01:08.226)

Well, I describe myself as an author turned website designer. These days, my business is focused on creating websites for authors who want to sell more books and have more success from their books. And yes, I came into the web design world through a roundabout route, like lots of the people that you interview here, Shannon, a fair mix of roles and jobs in my past.

So we won't go into all of that, but where my story gets a little bit interesting is a few years after I moved with my husband from London to the San Francisco area, I decided it would be super fun to write a novel. I think I was still dealing with some homesickness for England. And so I created a fictional English village, wrote a very light romantic comedy about that and to jump ahead a few chapters.

That one book turned into six books. I started going to writing conferences and chatting with other writers. And I realized that many, many other authors were totally struggling with anything to do with online marketing, especially website design and email lists. Before very long, I was helping them out in the hallway at conferences with questions and technical things.

And it wasn't all that much longer before very sensible people started pointing out to me that I seemed much more excited about editing my author website than I was about writing the next book. So that is how I found my way into this field of activity.

Shannon Mattern (02:52.313)

I love that story. And I, what I love most about it is like one of my, I don't know, pillars, like are things that I take a stand on, I guess you would say, is that like, you don't have to have a niche to build a successful web design business. And you also have a very clear niche and have built a very successful web design business. And what I see with

with people who have figured out their niche. It's typically like what you just described. It's like, I have this previous experience. I was doing this thing. Web design became an offshoot of that. actually became an expert in the challenges this niche has, the solutions for them. have industry experience that like helps me build better websites for them.

And so I love talking to people who have really like become a go-to person for websites in a specific niche because it's, I love that journey of like the blend of like something that I was like really interested in and I was very involved in. And then like, I've mixed that with web design and now I am like providing so much value to my clients because I understand like,

360 degree view of like what they're dealing with. So I say all of that to say, did you realize in the beginning how valuable both of those things were together? Or was there one that you kind of like dismissed or it took you a while to like come to that conclusion?

Pauline Wiles (04:44.526)

So it's certainly a winding path. Even though I got started in website design by creating sites for authors, I definitely have had wobbles about whether that was the right niche to pick, whether it's one of these so-called profitable niches that people like to talk about. So I've definitely had wobbles and my journey has involved certainly some websites for other types of business owners.

Shannon Mattern (05:02.971)

Sure.

Pauline Wiles (05:12.652)

But I would say in about the last two years, I've come back very firmly to the idea that there are people for me at the level and the type of work I want to do in the author community. There are millions of books published every year and the work is certainly there. And yes, because I'm tapped into that community, I know a few things myself about being an author and marketing a book. It makes it then

for me at least, a lot easier for my messaging and for my services and expertise.

Shannon Mattern (05:48.299)

my gosh. Okay, so you said something that I want to like, just dig into. And it comes back to like, pricing and is this a profitable niche? And are these people that I've, you know, this community that I'm in these people that I'm serving, like, are there, as people say, like investment minded clients here, or do people in this niche have money or, you know, that

ever elusive conversation about who has money and who doesn't have money. So what has your personal journey been about just how you think about who has, I don't know, pricing mindset with your clients?

Pauline Wiles (06:37.102)

Yeah, all over the place really. People who are not authors are connected with the publishing world themselves. They sometimes think that if you've written a book, it means that you own a second home in the Hamptons and you sit there with your typewriter on your desk and your feet on the sand and you're making millions of dollars a year off every book. And that sadly is not the reality for 99.9 % of authors.

And so those of us who serve authors are very aware that in some cases running a business as an author is a difficult way to make a living. And so I've certainly had to deal with the pricing mindset concerns of will my clients make a return on their investment? If not, then what are the other types of value that I'm adding to their interaction with me?

And yes, certainly one of my wobbles on this journey has been experimenting with, do I want to serve a much larger number of clients with a much lower priced service or product or course? And so I've certainly taken some big detours in that direction before coming back and realizing, no, the sweet spot for me is serving a relatively small number of clients at a very

high touch personalized level.

Shannon Mattern (08:08.091)

I love that you just believed that all options were possible. There are people who need a higher level of service at the level that you want to give that's more in alignment with how you want to run your business and the vision that you see for your life. And there are people who would be

well served by a lower end offer or a course or things like that. But you don't have to serve everyone. there's like a, there's every single type of client out there in every single industry. There are clients that are willing to spend more. There are clients who aren't willing to spend more. And I think it's like the thing that I've seen for you, cause you've said you have, you've had some wobbles and I see them as like experiments.

is just being willing to try and see what happens and put it out there and just test the theories, right? To be like, maybe, like being curious about like, are there people out there that are willing to pay a price that's sustainable for me? And

testing that out and what I've seen from what we've talked about and what I've heard you share on coaching calls is that you've surprised yourself along the way in terms of what's been possible. So I'd love to hear what was the biggest surprising moment for you when you're like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna try this out.

surprised you the most about making the changes that you've made.

Pauline Wiles (10:07.2)

Well, you're very kind to call things experiments. Shannon, previously you have described yourself as somebody who has to touch the hot stove to confirm that it really is hot and it really does hurt. I identify with that as well. So the good news about these experiments and touching the hot stove is, for example, I think back to a group

Shannon Mattern (10:17.379)

I do. Yeah.

Pauline Wiles (10:32.782)

course that I tried to run so that I could offer a more affordable price point for my authors. And yeah, watching other people try to build a website is one of the biggest turning points that I had in realizing the value and the skills that I bring to the table. So that gives me a solid foundation of yes, this stuff does not come easily to everybody. What I do is

And with hindsight, it's taken me more than 20 years to assemble these skills. And so it gives me that solid foundation of, yes, if it was easy for everybody, then nobody would need to hire web designers. And clearly, that's not true. And then to come back around to the question that I think you actually asked about what were my surprises when I

started to experiment with what would it look like to invite clients to work with me at higher prices and a higher level. I would say just this really nice experience from the framework that you teach inside Web Designer Academy of being able to make offers to clients so that

all of the offers are sustainable for me and yet they have choices and they get to decide how they want to go about the project. And yeah, as you say, inside the Academy, just a really safe way to start making offers at a much higher level and seeing what happens.

Shannon Mattern (12:16.511)

One of the things that I delight in when you share your progress is that when you ultimately decided to join the web designer academy and we have you fill out an intake form. And I recall one of the things that you said is that you're going to like give it two years to, to like apply the strategies and

and see if it was gonna work for you. And I remember looking at that and being like, she's gonna blow her own mind if she thinks it's gonna take two years to start seeing results. And I was like, so excited for you. I'm super curious, why the two year timeframe in terms of that?

Like I'm just personally curious if it was like, is it like patience is your superpower or was there like some mindset stuff in there? Like I'm real curious about what was driving that two year timeframe.

Pauline Wiles (13:28.032)

Yeah, absolutely. And before our call today, I fished out my journaling notes from right before I joined WDA, where I have a list of here are the reasons why I think I want to give this a go. And here are list of reasons why I'm scared to give this a go. And the two year thing. So for me, WDA, it's an investment. Let's be let's be clear about that. And for me, it was the biggest investment I'd made in my business at that point.

Shannon Mattern (13:51.066)

Yeah.

Pauline Wiles (13:58.21)

And frankly, I was not sure that I would see a return on my investment within the first year. And I'm a bit picky about how I measure these things. I wasn't simply saying, would I book a project and the revenue from that project would cancel out the investment in WDA. I was looking at this in terms of what's the incremental

Shannon Mattern (14:12.635)

Sure.

Pauline Wiles (14:26.966)

addition that I think I can make, because I knew I was going to put projects anyway, when I came into WDA, I had a business, I had leads coming in, I was booking projects. So for me, it was more about what's that little marginal extra that I believe I can reasonably and and achieve from from WDA. And so I, I looked at it, I thought, I'm not sure that I'm going to get a return on my investment in

first year, but that's okay because I'm not joining this for a super quick turnaround. I'm okay with giving it two years because everything I learn will continue to be applicable and it's, you know, it's a learning asset that I will move forward with. So yeah, that was why I said to myself, okay, if I don't see a return on investment in year one, that's all right. This is kind of a...

of capital investment and it's fine if it's a two-year payoff. And then hopefully Shannon you're going to ask me what actually happened in terms of return on investment.

Shannon Mattern (15:29.769)

I love how you...

Shannon Mattern (15:37.449)

of course, of course I am. And also I love how I love how you thought about that, where you're like, I'm already booking clients, I'm already selling projects. I'm already making money. It's not about how many projects do I book after I join. It's about what are the what's the change that's going to happen in terms of additional revenue, additional time saved additional capacity, like what does this look like? So

Pauline Wiles (15:40.788)

you

Shannon Mattern (16:06.669)

I love how methodically you thought through that investment. And I know that that is going to be like super, super helpful for our listeners in terms of like thinking about how do I want to think about these numbers? What does ROI mean to me specifically? Cause it can, it can look different ways for different people based on like

their business situation, their, their risk tolerance, their, their timeline of horizon. Like you said, you saw this as like a long-term capital investment that was going to continue to pay off for years and years and years. And you were willing to wait two years to start seeing, seeing the return from that, you know, so I just, I love getting inside the thought processes of how people think about that, because I think it just opens up.

our brains to consider different ways of making these decisions than maybe the framework that we're always used to using. So from that place, what actually did happen? We want to know.

Pauline Wiles (17:12.782)

So using that, yeah, using that very strict measure. And what I did was I basically looked at my recent projects and I looked at, what is the most I have ever charged for a website project? And that was kind of my high watermark. And I then looked at the next few projects that I booked after joining WDA.

Yeah, I made my money back in four months.

Shannon Mattern (17:46.523)

that is so amazing. And that's on top of what you already were making at your highest level before coming to work with us.

Pauline Wiles (17:55.82)

That is me saying if I had charged that same high water amount for those next few projects. Now, I suppose in fairness, some of them were a little more complex. You asked earlier about this sort of the profitable niche kind of thing. I am now tending to bring in author clients who have slightly more.

complex needs for their websites and for their online marketing. So it's not simply a case that I've, you know, it wasn't a magical overnight thing of my prices just shot up. I am generally doing slightly more complex projects and delivering more. But yeah, looking, looking back at the numbers, it's clear to me that that WDA was, was the reason for that shift.

Shannon Mattern (18:50.949)

So I always say like WGA might've been the catalyst, but you were the reason. So you were the reason for that shift. shifted, what are some of the biggest shifts that you've had from how you were running your business and just thinking about things before and now, what are you think are the biggest mindset shifts or even ways you've changed how you do things?

Pauline Wiles (19:22.22)

Yeah, so two things in particular jump out. Right before I joined WDA, I had attended the, now I hope I get the name right, is it the Profitable Designer Summit that you host?

Shannon Mattern (19:37.677)

Yeah, the Simply Profitable Designer Summit. Yep.

Pauline Wiles (19:41.484)

Simply Profitable Designer Summit. I had been to an excellent session there where the concept of paid discovery for new clients was introduced. A very generous member of your next level, WDA, was teaching this. And the idea here is that instead of trying to get absolutely all the information I need from somebody on a free 20 minute consultation call,

such that I can then advise them on what type of website and tools they need and turn around and give them a project proposal for that. Instead of that, what you're now teaching that I think is so wonderful is this kind of mini consulting project at the beginning where the client does invest a little bit of money and we then dive much deeper into

in my case, what their goals are as an author and what type of book marketing they see themselves doing and what their other streams of income, if any, are. So that was a huge thing that took me from trying to because before that my free consultation calls, they were going on forever. I wasn't really getting all the information I needed to put together a solid project proposal. And I feel like I was presenting proposals and the

potential client hadn't really made the connection for where the value was coming from. So that was a major thing for me. And then the second huge building block that I attribute the change in my situation to is the framework that you teach Shannon inside WDA for how to make offers and how to experiment very safely with premium pricing.

Shannon Mattern (21:31.353)

Yeah. So we call that our package matrix strategy. yeah, so what Pauline's referring to is we teach a process for whether you gather all of the requirements for the project in paid discovery or you're doing a consultation because the client has, or just doing a regular discovery call because the client has declined paid discovery.

How do you make an offer that gives them choice and autonomy and sets and holds boundaries and doesn't assume whether or not they have money and just all of these different philosophies and things that we teach inside of our program to make it like give the client choices about the level of time effort and

money that they want to invest in the project. And also just, I feel like we put so much pressure on ourselves as the web designer to like hold responsibility for all of the choices that the client makes because they don't know what they don't know or they weren't sure like how much work it was going to be coming into the project. like if we didn't communicate something ahead of time properly,

We take on that responsibility for that and overwork and over deliver and let scope creep happen and all of these things. And the package matrix strategy that we teach really tries to like undo a lot of the places where we just put so much pressure on ourselves to like hold all of the things and really puts a lot of the autonomy and responsibility on the client for like.

making their own choices with the best information that we can give them about what that's going to look like. So I just wanted to share a little bit more about what that strategy is with our listeners. In case you're, curious about how that, about like how just a simple shift in making offers can allow you to play around with.

Shannon Mattern (23:50.821)

things like pricing and boundaries and all of those things. And so I love that paid discovery for you was such a big game changer. I know you attended the Simply Profitable Designer Summit. You learned about paid discovery.

You joined the Web Designer Academy after that, is that correct?

Pauline Wiles (24:16.366)

Yes, but the timing was so... I wouldn't normally suggest that people jump in and make two big changes at the same time, but for me, these two things were happening more or less simultaneously.

Shannon Mattern (24:30.095)

Yeah, like you came into the Web Designer Academy right at the point where Rachel, who like really rolled out the paid discovery piece in next level, was starting to talk about it in the main Web Designer Academy room too. And we were like coordinating to incorporate it into our curriculum. And I believe you were one of the very early adopters of paid discovery.

with a package matrix off of the backend. And I remember you coming to live strategy calls saying, I sold a paid discovery offer. I sold a paid discovery offer. I sold my highest project off the back of a paid discovery offer. And then some of our other students started trying it too. And we're like, okay, this is a thing. Like this is a thing. And I love that you were just, I love that you're a stove toucher because I think you like.

walked up to the stove and you're like, I'm going to find out if it's hot or not. And I think you've discovered that that time it was okay to touch the stove.

Pauline Wiles (25:35.31)

Yeah, yeah, the light bulb certainly went off for me with paid discovery that, you know, my consultations were going on forever. I wasn't getting the right information and the client still really wasn't understanding what their results would be and paid discovery allowed for that to all be communicated much more clearly. And then, yeah, with the package framework and then making an offer that includes choices.

And of course, by that point, they knew me better. There was a lot of trust that had been built up and they felt that they were in, very expert and safe hands to partner with on the project. Yeah, those two things have been genius for me.

Shannon Mattern (26:27.899)

So I want to ask you about personal mindset shifts with paid discovery in terms of value. Did you experience any clicking or light bulb moments in terms of your pricing before paid discovery and after paid discovery? Because I've heard this from other web designer academy students, and I'm curious what your experience was.

Pauline Wiles (26:57.678)

Yes, and this is this kind of wonderful ripple effect of Shannon, you provide wonderful coaching for your students and as that starts to sink in and we think about our pricing and our businesses differently, I know that I am sharing that with my clients and my audience and encouraging them in the same ways. So for me,

There has been a shift in how I think about, it's so funny, I say that my niche is authors and everybody else says, that's a great niche, you very good, very good. But in fact, there are subcategories even within that of different kinds of authors. is, know, unfortunately there's an author who will publish a book and make, you know, enough for a few coffees at Starbucks off the back of the book, but that's kind of where it ends.

And then there are other authors, especially if they have a consulting business or a speaking business that goes along with the book, they stand to make a sizeable return on investment from everything that they do with their book and in marketing the book. And so one of the shifts for me has been to recognise what type of author, client am I talking to and what is their likely return on investment.

And that certainly frees me up to make higher priced project proposals if I can see and identify and help them see and identify where their return on investment is coming from. And so a wonderful example where I turned around and reflected some of the teaching that you've given us, One of my author clients, serves, he serves the construction industry and he solves

very expensive problems. mean, he solves problems that probably run into the millions or tens of millions of dollars for his clients. And I said to him pretty early on in the process that I didn't want to see him pitching himself to consult with anyone for less than about $10,000, for example. And so that then becomes a lot easier for me to see, this is where my client could see return on investment from working with me.

Pauline Wiles (29:19.062)

And therefore it becomes much more powerful to propose a website project with some of these higher numbers attached.

Shannon Mattern (29:31.419)

I just got so excited to hear how excited you get to see opportunities for your clients that they might not really realize or see for themselves. And I think when we allow ourselves to not just be the web designer and not just like,

I'm just building pages and you're telling me what to put on the pages and you're telling me all the things that you want and you're really allowing yourself to offer your ideas, your experience, the opportunities that you see to your clients and you're showing them like, here's what else is possible for you. what you said earlier, like that ripple effect is...

is huge. And so that's like something that I want our listeners to really take from this is that you, when you do something like paid discovery with your clients, when you take a deep dive into learning so much more about them and what they do and their industry and the goals and you really

have an opportunity to show them like here's how all of this can work together for you to create this thing that you want to create and I just love that you had the confidence to lean in to like.

to lean into making that recommendation and sharing that advice with him when you're like, you're solving very expensive problems. Like you shouldn't, like, I would love to see you not touch a consulting engagement for less than $10,000. Like, what a huge gift to this person to show, to just open his eyes to what might be possible. And then you get to build the thing that's going to help him do it. Like life changing for people.

Pauline Wiles (31:37.634)

Yeah, yeah, very much.

Shannon Mattern (31:37.985)

So it's just so fun when we kind of step out of logos and branding and all of those things are important, but stepping into like what's possible for our clients and working with them in the capacity that you're doing with your clients. Like, I don't know, it's just super cool. So there was no question there. That was just me saying how awesome I think that is that you felt so confident to say like,

Pauline Wiles (32:01.592)

you

Shannon Mattern (32:07.129)

You're amazing and look what all you can do. So, so good. Okay. I want to like go back to like, why did you ultimately decide to like join, like fill out the application and ultimately join the web designer academy? Like what problem were you trying to really solve in your web design business?

Pauline Wiles (32:35.246)

So I did grapple with the decision to join WDA because I've been in business for a few years already. I often talk about it as kind of a leaking bucket. I did have a business, so the business was a bucket, but there were various places where it was leaking. So I had inquiries coming in. I was fortunate in that respect.

but I felt like I wasn't quite converting as many of them into projects as I would have wanted to. My previous level of pricing, I was reasonably happy with it at the time. And so I felt I was reasonably close to figuring it all out on my own.

Again, like many web designers, many in your audience, we're very good actually at reverse engineering things, at researching, at watching what gets results for other people. We're very good at being scrappy and piecing things together on our own. And I did experience a level of frustration and resentment that surely I should be able to figure this out on my own. Aligned with the recognition that

I'd been, you know, plugging away, not without success, but not, not majorly kind of cracking this thing. I'd been trying on my own for several years and I wasn't quite getting it. And around about the time, I think the first, the first thing I did, Shannon, was I binged on past podcast episodes. I,

I took a flight actually it was last last Christmas I was I was in the air on Christmas Day with about 10 hours to kill so I downloaded many many of your podcast episodes especially anything to do with pricing and mindset. I listened to all of those and felt okay there's something here there's there's good sense being talked here from there I took a step a very baby step and I subscribe to your premium podcast offering.

Pauline Wiles (34:58.026)

which I have to say anyone who's listening to this and is at all tempted to to find out more that is such a you know it's a teeny tiny investment to to really move move and get a sense for for what is it like to be coached by Shannon and what really goes on inside WDA. So I signed up for that and it was it was pretty clear to me from those coaching calls that I was then able to listen to the replays for.

that your approach to how you coach and the methods that you recommend without being so prescriptive and so narrow that, you know, it's kind of Shannon's way or the highway, that doesn't happen at all. Those two things were gradually nudging me closer to this idea that if I want to work with investment minded clients,

who have skin in the game and are willing to commit to the results, then maybe it's finally time for me to get some skin in the game and make a big commitment to these results.

Shannon Mattern (36:11.001)

can relate to you so much right now, by the way, thank you so much for sharing that with me. I do the same thing. I do the same thing where I'm like, I'm smart, I'm scrappy, I can figure this out. I don't need help. I've got this. And yet that is my Achilles heel. That is the that's the biggest thing for me that keeps me from actually like creating the results.

Pauline Wiles (36:29.23)

Mmm.

Shannon Mattern (36:40.111)

that I want is my scrappiness and my resourcefulness and my smarts. Because I think for me, it's that I can't see all my blind spots. I truly can't. And the more smart brains you have together working on a problem, the much more creative solutions or the things that like,

we couldn't see individually on our own, we can now see together like there's like an alchemy that happens. And I think that that's, I love that you said that you were like, I was reasonably close to figuring out on my own. was starting to frustrate me that I wasn't able to figure it out on my own. I totally relate to all of those feelings. And I love that you

had the realization that if I expect my clients to be committed at this level, that I also might want to give myself the support and commit. I have experienced this when I have committed at that level for myself. I'm curious.

Did anything shift for you when you just made the decision and did it?

Pauline Wiles (38:09.002)

possibly not overnight, but, I guess I've been a member now of WGA just over six months. I would say in that time, I'm increasingly, increasingly confident that, you know, whether, whether people listening to this have a niche or not in every sort of walk of life, there are clients who want to invest.

Shannon Mattern (38:12.186)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (38:18.19)

It's crazy.

Pauline Wiles (38:36.492)

they want to be taken really good care of and have the premium experience. I've certainly noticed that in recent months I've been increasingly willing to invest in a few other things for my business and I feel like the breakthroughs for me they do come when I take what feels like a bit of a scary risk and I get some skin in the game and

and I step up and commit to doing something like that.

Shannon Mattern (39:11.439)

I feel the same way. There'll be something that I'm resisting, whether it's hiring support for my business or something like that. Then once I make the move to do that thing, other things that have been stagnant start happening. They seem to be unrelated, but they have to be related somehow.

Like, I'm just like, they have to be. It's something I'll have to explore on on a podcast, like a future income report. But like, there is something to that, that these things are related. And the action I took over here helped me unblock taking some action in this other, other area of my business, because I've had a similar experience where like,

It's not about like making an investment or spending money per se. Like that's the tool or the avenue that it happened to be, but it was like, I'm allowing myself support. I don't have to do it all on my own. And because I'm allowing myself support, I'm creating more capacity for myself. And because I have capacity, now I'm going to allow this other thing in because it won't overtake me. So those are just like, I totally resonate with everything.

that you said there and I can relate to a lot of it. It's hard to believe it's only been six months since you joined because you're so committed. You come to almost every single call, you ask questions, you get coaching when you need it, you're active in the Facebook group. And we always, like we say in the Web Designer Academy, it's like,

you don't have to do all of the things to get the results. Like there are so many different ways to get support, listen to the replays, you don't have to be there live. What is it that, like what is your philosophy, I guess I would say, like about how you approach this program?

Pauline Wiles (41:29.626)

And well, again, looking back at the journaling that I did in April, one of the notes I made for myself was that generally, I'm extremely resistant to asking for feedback and support. And so I, which might come as news to you, Shannon. And so I basically made the commitment that if I was going to invest at this level, then I was going to force myself to show up and ask questions and ask for feedback.

which is not how I generally like to operate. So yeah, my philosophy was this is an investment and I'm showing up, I'm going to take part and...

Shannon Mattern (42:05.428)

Me either.

Pauline Wiles (42:15.936)

Yeah, because as you say, there are many, many ways to take advantage of the support in the programme. There's wonderful options, I think, that you and your team offer. But for me, I was pretty clear that if I was making this investment, then I would be also making a commitment to show up and pay attention.

Shannon Mattern (42:40.795)

So good. It's like you knew what your thing was, which would be to not ask for help. And so all of the thread that I'm seeing through all of this is like, I know this is my tendency and I know that this is probably in my way and I'm going to commit to overriding that.

to create the results that I wanna create. I don't know, how does that, like, that feel accurate?

Pauline Wiles (43:13.357)

Yeah.

Pauline Wiles (43:17.408)

Yes, and I think that was unlocked for me because it wasn't a trivial investment for me in my business. It wasn't like one of these Black Friday offers where, you know, we spend, we spend nine, we spend $9 on a course and we know that we won't ever open the course. So yeah, I think for, for me, there was definitely an aspect of get some skin in the game and, and, and go for it.

Shannon Mattern (43:25.947)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (43:30.727)

you

Shannon Mattern (43:47.789)

my gosh. So I just, mean, your journey over the just the past six months has been really, really amazing. What would you say to someone who is sitting here listening to us and has been like, yeah, I've had my eye on that for a while. I don't know if I need it.

I think I think I've got I can listen to the podcast. can do the free trainings. I can figure all of this out on my own. What would you say to that person who is kind of just been hanging out out there and isn't quite where they want to be?

Pauline Wiles (44:37.442)

I think I would say that unless that person is very new in business and therefore they haven't really had enough time to know if they can figure it out on their own. I'm sorry, but the tough love I gave myself was if I could figure this out on my own, I would probably have done it by now.

And I do think with Web Designer Academy, there are a number of things on offer where you can get a really good sense of what it's like inside the program before you commit. And so nobody's asking you to go in completely blind without good information. I think Shannon, you do a wonderful job of

of offering various ways that people can peek inside and feel safe about what's involved. And yeah, so if somebody's on the fence and you've been thinking for a while you need it, but you're not sure, then I would say the framework is there. You haven't figured it out on your own. The framework is there, the coaching is there, the support is there. It absolutely worked for me and

As I said, I measured that pretty strictly.

Pauline Wiles (46:03.66)

Yeah, yeah, start sampling and see where it leads you.

Shannon Mattern (46:08.701)

my gosh, so good. And I, and I love that you kind of separated that into like, if you're still too new to know, you know, that you like, whether or not you can figure it out on your own, you're really just getting started. And we have so many free resources out there for people who are really just getting started. Because like you said, it is more of an investment to work with us because we really are for those people who

have done a lot of things on their own. And when we say make it work, mean, what we mean is that you're not working all the time, that you're not resentful, that you don't have projects dragging on forever, that you feel like you're being appropriately compensated for the value that you bring. And, you know, that's what the that's what make it work mean. And there's always

There's always going to be more work to do, right? There's, there's never this perfect business that you arrive at, that you have no growing pains, that it always works, that you never work with a client that is challenging or that you never accidentally undercharge or a scope creep. Like all of that's still going to continue to happen. You have never arrived, I guess I should say, but it's about having the skills to deal with those things when they come up.

and like the community and the support. So if you are struggling with like inconsistent, like clients or undercharging over delivering, and you're trying to figure this all out on your own, please let us help you. I guess I would say like, please give yourself the gift of letting us help you. That is what we are, that's what we're here to do. So.

Yeah, what's your next goal, Pauline?

Pauline Wiles (48:08.622)

My next goal, well to continue to work on the mindset things around where is the next client coming from and I certainly don't want to be booked out a year ahead that would cause me as much stress as having an empty development calendar but I know for me they will. Working on the mindset of the confidence of the right clients are coming along.

There are wonderful, amazing, fabulous clients out there who are looking for me just as much as I'm looking for them. And yeah, just to, my goal really is to get my business into the shape where I am serving a relatively small number of wonderful clients in a year. I'm personally giving me some of the flexibility to

take off and see family when that's appropriate.

Shannon Mattern (49:11.587)

I love it. So good. mean, that's what we're all after, right? The freedom, flexibility, financial independence, working with clients who we feel like we're helping them have an impact that makes us feel like it's so very rewarding. That's what I get to do every day. I appreciate you taking the time to share your experience and your story with us.

I asked this question to everyone that comes on the podcast and I'd to know what your thoughts are, but what belief about yourself did you have to change to get to where you are today?

Pauline Wiles (49:52.518)

Yeah, definitely the one that just becomes just because something comes easily and naturally to me and I find it fun That doesn't mean that that's not worth a Fabulous amount of money for somebody else that wants once it taken off their hands

Shannon Mattern (50:11.231)

Ooh, so good. So, so good. Where can our listeners go to just connect with you, learn more about you, stalk your website a little bit and see all the cool things that you're doing? Where can they go to connect with you?

Pauline Wiles (50:25.44)

Yeah, yeah the website is always going to be the website. I'm at PaulineWiles.com

Shannon Mattern (50:32.727)

Amazing. Well, thank you all so much for listening. Pauline, thank you so much for being here. I really, really appreciate it.

Pauline Wiles (50:42.466)

was wonderful to speak to you. Thanks, Shannon.

Shannon Mattern (50:44.983)

Amazing and I'll link up the profitable web designer premium podcast that Pauline mentioned. is our it's our private podcast feed. It is replays of past coaching calls going all the way back to 2020. And when you sign up, you get a drop of 10 coaching calls immediately and then they drip out twice a week. So every three and four days.

After that, and you get to hear me coach other web designers inside the Web Designer Academy on all things strategy, pricing, mindset. And you just kind of get to see what it's like to be inside that program. So I will link up the profitable Web Designer premium podcast in the show notes and we'll see you back here next week. Bye.