#112 – How To Market Your Web Design Business Through Relationships with Michelle Vroom

Shannon Mattern (00:01.79)

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Profitable Web Designer. Today I am joined by business coach Michelle Vroom who helps her clients reach their first 100K and beyond without all of the fluff, which I know you guys are gonna be so excited to hear more about her and how she does that. So Michelle, welcome to the show. Can you share a little bit more with our listeners about you and what you do?

Michelle Vroom (00:29.332)

Absolutely, thank you for having me Shannon. I'm so excited to be here. So I have been in business for over eight years now. I think like eight and half, it's crazy. And I didn't start out as a coach. I actually started out as a done for you service provider. And that included doing a million things like social media copy, website copy. Like I kind of did it all just to really get my feet wet.

I come from a marketing and public relations background, so that's what sort of translated and made sense. And then about a year and a half into business, I transitioned into coaching and consulting. It was sort of a very natural transition that happened. So I definitely very familiar with the done for you life and the challenges there. And now I really am focused on helping women.

market in a way that is simple, that is based on relationships, creating more trust, more authenticity, which I think is very much lacking in the online space. I call it relationship driven marketing. So really focused on helping them feel in control of signing clients. I think that's the biggest thing because when you feel in control of signing clients, I think that's when you can really step into the role of provider.

Whatever that looks like, a lot of the women I work with want to be able to provide for their families. You know, that could look like giving your kids the extra stuff or splurging on something and not worrying about, you know, how much is in the bank account and look like saving for a dream home, like buying a dream car. I mean, think there's so many different definitions of what it means to be a provider, but it really lights me up when women feel like they are in control of signing clients. They know how to do that. It's something that is just very steady and consistent. And so because I have that in my business, I really want to help other women create that.

Thank

Shannon Mattern (02:09.822)

I love that you're all about relationship driven marketing. And that's one of the things that really resonated with me about you when we connected to do this podcast episode, because that's exclusively the strategy that we teach inside of our program to our web designers for getting clients. And it's so counterintuitive for them because they are building

like all of the tech and automations and all of the things that their clients need to like have this whole digital marketing strategy. And what I hear from them is like, they feel very like almost fraudulent or like it's too easy to not do their own marketing that way for their business. So I'm curious what your thoughts are on, on like relationship marketing in general and why you're so passionate about it.

Michelle Vroom (03:05.696)

Yeah, you know, I think that...

sometimes people get overwhelmed and get stressed about it because it feels like, I don't want to be salesy. Like they're worried about how they're going to be perceived. I just think that no matter what, and there's been a lot of trends that have come through in the time that I've been in business, no matter what trend comes through, relationships are what matter. Like that's how people make decisions, right? We do it. I mean, really we make decisions to buy based on emotion, not logic. We think it's logic, but it's really emotion. And I think that when, when there's a relationship already there, when there's

Shannon Mattern (03:13.384)

Yep.

Michelle Vroom (03:37.832)

trust already there, makes it easy for someone to say, I'm going to go with this person. You know, a lot of people talk about how the market is saturated. A lot of people focus on like, how do I differentiate myself?

And I think we can fall down that rabbit hole of trying all these things, you know, with our messaging and all of that to differentiate ourselves, which is not necessarily a bad thing, right? I think we miss the basics of differentiating yourself, which is relationships, right? Someone getting to know you, feeling like they can trust you. You know, so many people who hire me feel like I'm already their coach before they even hire me. You know, because I've built that trust, because I'm not sitting around thinking, well,

How do I just get a client today? Like that's not my mentality. I know that if I pour into my community, if I build a community in the first place, right, and I pour into it.

I will have clients. I will have people coming to me. And those are people who trust me and who value me as an expert, which is the best way for a relationship to begin anyway. And a lot of those people continue on, right? I mean, they continue working with me. They continue buying from me. I think we forget about, you know, how can we increase the lifetime value of a client so that they keep buying from us? They keep wanting to work with us.

Shannon Mattern (04:46.194)

Something that you said jumped out at me, the, do I get a client today? And when like, when that is our thought and we feel like needy or desperate or pushy, like I, I've heard from, you know, my community or, or, you know, people that I coach too, that it's just like, I feel like I'm being disingenuous because.

I need clients and I want clients and I love what you said about it's like, yes, we all want clients. That's why we're doing this. That's beside the point, but how you get clients is like a totally different energy. So your energy about that is like, comes from a completely different place, which is really, really powerful.

Michelle Vroom (05:38.11)

Yeah, I don't need people to buy from me. I mean, that, like, we can feel when someone needs the sale. We talk, like, that person's going to talk differently to us. We're going to sense the need there. And I think that actually can create more pressure unintentionally in the sales process and more overwhelmed. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (05:40.86)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (05:45.8)

Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (05:56.978)

Yeah, for sure. So good. So, on, you know, in researching and getting to know about more about you before this podcast, you said there's no secret formula to reaching the a K Mark. There's mindset work strategy and a little bit of grit. Can you tell me more about, about that and about your philosophy on that?

Michelle Vroom (06:22.922)

Yeah. So I mean the grit, the grit that has just always been there, right? We, there are so many times in my business where something hasn't worked out the way that I expected. mean, a year and a half into business, I lost three clients in one day. This is when actually was a year into business when I was still doing done for you work. And I was literally two months away from my due date with my second child. I couldn't necessarily replace those three clients in one day, right? I couldn't replace them with retainer clients. I was about to have a kid and go on maternity leave. It just didn't make sense.

Shannon Mattern (06:41.768)

Mm-hmm.

no.

Michelle Vroom (06:53.839)

There are so many times like that where it would have been so easy for me to quit, where it would been so easy for me to say, well, that's a sign, right? Instead, the grit and determination of, okay, there's always a solution, there's always another way to make this work, that has served me. mean, if you wanna know the thought that has, this is tying into mindset as well, if you wanna know the thought that got me to 100K, it's I'm gonna figure this out no matter what. I'm gonna work it until it works. And I just think that we...

A lot of women struggle with that. think there's a sense of instant gratification and entitlement that we unintentionally pick up because of what's being shared in the industry. I could, you know, go on a whole tangent about that, but I think that the mix of the grit, which comes from a certain mindset, right, a certain thought, paired with keeping your strategy simple. I did not focus on a million different things. You know, it's easy for me to fall down the rabbit hole because I know marketing.

I have a lot of clients who know marketing or come from marketing related backgrounds and it's almost harder because we are like a dangerous breed, right? It's like, well, I can fall down this rabbit hole because I can overthink myself to death with strategy. For me, keeping things really simple, focusing on fewer things also allowed me to have more time to do the mindset work, right? To really...

like support my thoughts in terms of, what, what do I need to believe about this to see the results that I want? If I had tried to inundate myself with a million different marketing strategies, I don't think I would have had.

the ability to be able to also focus on the mindset and then just have the grit to keep going. Sometimes we can take mindset to an extreme as well. I don't hear a lot of people talk about this, but I'm all for mindset and anyone who's worked with me knows that that's important. believe that your thoughts influence your results and influence the actions you take. Sometimes I think we can overthink and use the mindset work as an excuse to avoid just moving forward. And that's where the grit comes into play too. So think you need all three.

Shannon Mattern (08:50.91)

that is so good. So you're all about keeping marketing simple, even in the realm of like, you are a marketer, you are a strategist, you understand all of these different things that could be done. All of the people listening to this podcast, you know, they're building strategy driven conversion focused marketing ready websites for their clients. That's what they're doing day in and day out. They're doing, you know,

Michelle Vroom (08:57.942)

Yes.

Shannon Mattern (09:20.59)

They're building these tools for their clients to use for the more complex marketing strategies. So I'd love for you to talk more about how you personally like keep your strategy simple when all of the possibilities are on the table. Like what is your marketing strategy look like?

Michelle Vroom (09:41.396)

Yeah, you know, I do think that we get really focused too much so on specific platforms, like we give our power away to like a platform.

What I prefer to think about is really taking a step back and looking at the principles of marketing and what makes a marketing strategy successful. I think there are three things. Number one, getting visible to some degree and going to where people are having conversations, are networking, whatever that looks like, both online and off.

The second piece of this, the second step once you make connections and start building relationships is to give those people a place to follow you. I have met so many people in other Facebook groups as an example who are not ready to hire me yet and I don't want to lose that connection. So what do I do with that? Well, I send them to my community, which happens to be my Facebook group. It doesn't have to be a Facebook group for everybody. But having a place for people to go back to.

so that they can follow me, they can, you know, consume my content regularly.

Like we know in the marketing world that people need at least 10 to 12 different touch points before they buy. They need to see and hear the message over and over again. And I think we underestimate that even us marketers. And so when I'm giving them an opportunity to come into my world and to follow me, I'm not worried about trying to get the sale the minute I meet them because I know if they don't buy now, they will buy later. And that is, think, an important powerful thought too. So that's the second part of this marketing strategy. And then the third part is making offers, like telling people how you can help

Michelle Vroom (11:17.092)

them and doing it over and over again. Which none of this is easy by the way, like we let our brains get in in our own way right? Like we we get in our own way. But it is simple. Like I want people to hear how simple it is that there's really three steps. Now what platforms do you use to create this? You know I think that's going to depend on how you like to show up on the audience that you're targeting. So I'm not going to like

make a blanket statement, right? And say everybody should be using X, Y, and Z platform because it really depends. are you creating websites for corporate, right? For corporate people? Like if so, I might not recommend certain platforms. I mean, it has to be specific obviously to who you're targeting and how you like to show up and how you like to market.

And when I say market, know, a lot of people will say, well, I'm not, I'm, even if I'm a marketer, like, I don't feel like I'm great at marketing for myself. And what is marketing? Marketing is just building relationships. So how do you want to build relationships? There really are three steps. And when we try to skip steps, right, I think that's when things get really complicated.

Shannon Mattern (12:15.886)

I totally agree. And I think, you know, I think that the, the mindset shift that I always talk about on this podcast is like marketing isn't about you. Like you're not marketing yourself. You are like connecting with other people, finding out about what their goals, aspirations, challenges, problems are, and then talking about how what you do can fill that gap and help them. So, you know, if you're like, I don't like to.

market myself. I don't like to do marketing. It's like, you might be thinking that you have to talk about yourself a lot and talk about how awesome you are and why you're so qualified to help them and why you're so skilled. And like you said earlier, like differentiate yourself, like in all of these different ways. And I'm always like, it's not about you. It's about them and how you can serve them. So if you're always curious and you're connecting and you're asking questions and you're

adding value and seeing how you can help. That's like way more fun than like just showing up and being like, let me tell you how cool I am. Here's how awesome I am. Here's why you should like want to hang out with me.

Michelle Vroom (13:30.292)

Exactly, exactly. Like, what do people care about? They care about themselves. You know, they about themselves. And they also...

Shannon Mattern (13:35.932)

Yeah. And it's so fun when you get to, it's so fun when you get to just like find out more about someone and then be like, Ooh, this is exciting. Here's how I can help you with that.

Michelle Vroom (13:48.008)

Yeah, and I want to make an important point specific, obviously, for your audience and for people who are web designers, strategists, et cetera. Obviously, you're doing the work for your clients, right? So I want to acknowledge that it's different than coaching. However, I do think that when you can create a community, a.k.a. a following, whatever term you want to use, and you can really let people see your approach to web design, your approach to serving your

their clients and doing the work for them. That is important. That matters, right? Now people wanna know my philosophy and my values because I'm gonna be coaching them. So it's a little bit of a different relationship. But if I'm hiring somebody to do the work for me, to design my site, like I wanna know not just, hey, what have you done for other people and how does it look, right? Like what are the aesthetics? I also wanna know how do you approach this, right? What does that look like?

And so I think that one of the areas of opportunity for done for you service providers specifically in the marketing arena is to really let people into their process. You know, I talk about content creation as really less about creating content and more about documenting the things that I'm doing and how I'm serving my clients. And I think that's approach that an approach that would build more trust and authenticity in the space. And I'd love to see more people doing so. think that fits in really nicely with that second, you know, piece of the marketing strategy, which is.

Okay, yes, we're creating a community so that people can continue following you and and and you know We're warming them up right to becoming a client. But then what are we doing? What are we sharing with them? Like I've worked with web designers before who are like, well, what do I share? Like they don't care about you know, X Y and Z I'm like, what do they care about though? That's the stuff that we need to take them behind the scenes on and I just think that that's a missed opportunity, right? If someone's not utilizing that

to really allow yourself to stand out. Because if you're there with a bunch of other web designers, how is someone going to make the decision to hire you? They want to know, how do you approach this? How do you approach web design? What can I expect when I work with you? And I think when we can start taking people behind the scenes and bringing in more of our philosophy, that's when...

Michelle Vroom (16:01.524)

a lot of right? That's when we start to see more of that consistency. Again, I could like do a podcast episode just about that particular part, but I feel like that's an important part of the discussion too.

Shannon Mattern (16:12.828)

Yeah, for sure. And I think it builds so much trust. You know, when you're like here, when you give me thousands and thousands of dollars to like build, basically put your business in my hands, you know, here's how I'm going to steward that and lead you through it and what that's going to look like and how you're going to be taken care of and how we're going to head off problems. It's like,

You build so much trust and credibility that way. And I hear so many, so many web designers saying, well, I can't book a client project at that much because I don't have a portfolio that I like. And it's like, it's not about your portfolio. It's about your process. So I love that you just said that, that it's such a huge missed opportunity for them to really take people behind the scenes and show them how they're going to, to.

provide that service, because I think that it is. That goes right back to the relationships that you were talking about too, is showing people that before they ask, I guess.

Michelle Vroom (17:25.196)

Yeah, yep, exactly. Letting them in behind the scenes, you know, it's okay to do that. I think sometimes people get hesitant to do that because they're like, well, I don't want to give everything away, but if you're a done for research, listen, you're going be doing the work for people. So show them exactly what that's going to look like. And I think we're creating more safety for people to buy as well.

Shannon Mattern (17:45.214)

for sure. So when clients come to work with you, what are the things that you guys are doing together? Like what's the typical journey for someone that comes to work with you in your coaching practice?

Michelle Vroom (18:01.302)

Yeah, so obviously most of the people who work with me have already started marketing to some degree, like they're doing some marketing. I think that many of them are overwhelmed with all of the different options. I think many of them struggle to prioritize. And so the first thing we really look at is, okay, let's do like a debrief here of...

you know, what's working really well and what needs improvement. You know, I always want to focus on, we solving for the right problems? So like, I'll have people come to me, you know, in some cases it might be, I'm not booking enough sales calls. Okay, what's happening there? What do we need to look into? It might also be, well, I'm booking the sales calls, but they're not converting, right? Or I'm sending over proposals and I'm getting ghosted. Okay, we want to look and really see kind of that process that I just outlined, like where are the hangups, right? Where are the challenges? And I think it's hard, again, if you're a marketer

or you know marketing or you come from a marketing background, it is really hard to do that for yourself. So I do it for people, I do for other people and for my clients, what they do for their clients, right? And so it's taking a really holistic view at what's going on in their marketing because a lot of times we think there's a specific problem and I'm like, actually, is that the right problem?

think we might need to like look at the challenge here. So a lot of that is really where we start. And then from there, it's, you know, making sure that they have a clear strategy for what they're doing in the next 90 days. And I say 90 days, and this has been something Shannon that I've really been adopting recently with my clients. And I'll tell you why. And I don't know your perspective on this. This might be interesting, but I just have seen so much more distraction online in the last, I would say year or two.

A lot of shiny objects, a lot of just like people thinking almost too far ahead and overwhelming themselves by trying to do everything. And by the way, I fall in prey to that. this is certainly not a, Michelle has it all together and knows, you know, absolutely not, right? What I have noticed that is working really well is just focusing on the next 90 days. And the reason I say 90 days and listen, I'm probably preaching to the choir, some of the people listening here.

Michelle Vroom (20:09.1)

90 days is a good amount of time to see the data, right? To see, okay, what's really working and what needs tweaking. We have a hard time doing that because let's be honest, 90 days is like forever, forever. And like in our own business, right? A week feels like forever. And I'll have clients be like, it's not working. And then it drives them nuts. I'm sure when I say it, but they pay me to also give them the tough love, right? And tell them what they need to hear. And I'm like, yeah, have you given it enough time? Have you given it 90 days of consistency? The answer is usually no.

Shannon Mattern (20:20.83)

you

Michelle Vroom (20:38.836)

And so what I've been doing lately, and I just did this with my clients mid September.

obviously at the time of recording this, we're going into kind of the last quarter of the year. We focused on their 90 day action plans. We didn't try to think ahead to the next six months or the next year. And what it did is it really drilled down exactly what they need to be focused on. And it helped them prioritize. And I'm really, really excited about that. So I've been seeing a lot of clients staying the course and having fewer distractions. It doesn't completely eliminate them, but fewer distractions when we focus on what's your 90 day marketing plan. And it includes everything I just mentioned. How are we getting visible? How are we bringing people into your world?

What does that actually look like? And then what are the conversion activities that we're doing? Are we making offers? Are we booking sales calls? Are we following up with leads? So many people leave follow up on the table, right? That's a whole other topic too. having that 90 day plan, I think also reminds people like, I'm not just going to bang my head against the wall for the next six to 12 months and not change anything. Like if we feel like we're on the wrong track, that's like one of the worst, it's one of the worst feelings, right? It's like being on the wrong path or having something not work and just doing it forever and wasting so much time.

This way it's like, listen, give it 90 days and let's evaluate.

Shannon Mattern (21:48.742)

I love that so much and I always say around here, it's like, you know, the actions you take today are going to create your results 30, 60, 90 days from now. And so start now. And are you willing to do something for that long without

just like what you said, like we have this instant gratification, we worry we're doing it wrong if we don't see an instant result, if someone doesn't respond to us right away, if the first person says they're not interested in whatever offer you've made and then we're like, I must be doing something wrong, I need to pivot, I need to niche, I need to rebrand, I need to like do all of this stuff and I call it like Procrasta branding and other non-marketing strategies where it's like you do like,

Michelle Vroom (22:32.716)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (22:38.51)

It's once you get over the discomfort of like, I'm doing all the things and nothing is working in the first 30 days, right? We don't, like you said, we don't want to do that for six months. We don't want to do it beyond 90 days, but I'm doing all the things and nothing is working. It's like, good, you're doing all the things because the momentum is building behind you and you don't even see it. The seeds are growing. So stay the course.

Be patient, be persistent. I think that's where your grit comes in because it takes grit to persist in the face of instant gratification not happening.

Michelle Vroom (23:15.592)

It really does. you know, another shift that...

is almost always happening with my clients, right? And the kind of coaching that I'm giving them is what do we actually need to be able to follow through on everything you just said? We think we need confidence and we do not need confidence. have never, confidence, notice how that was not something I ever brought up that got me to six figures and now multiple six figures. People are waiting so long to be competent because they think that once I'm competent, I'm gonna then take the action. That's not how it works. You need commitment.

Shannon Mattern (23:34.715)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (23:40.306)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (23:46.546)

Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle Vroom (23:47.998)

If you are committed, then grit will follow, perseverance will follow, and you'll take more action. And through taking the action consistently, you will feel more confident. No one ever got more confident not taking the action. And so the piece that I see that's missing that I coach pretty much every client on, especially recently, lately, commitment.

Do we have the commitment and commitment waivers? It's not a one and done. I have to recommit to things every single day. And some phases of my business, I'm better at doing that than others. And that's where I think coaching, right? And having a mentor, having a coach, having someone who can talk you off the ledge, who can redirect you, who can check in with you too. Like sometimes I'm checking you with my clients and saying, do you still want this? Right?

Shannon Mattern (24:29.373)

Yeah.

Michelle Vroom (24:30.418)

If yes, okay, let's recommit. What thought will help you be more committed? That is strengthening your mind. It's creating more of that grid. And we want to rush through that stuff. We want to skip that stuff because it's less tangible, isn't it? It doesn't feel like, well, that's going to get me more web design clients. It actually will, right? It actually will because when you can stay the course, when you have that level of commitment, you're going deeper into a strategy versus wide. A lot of people stay wide. You know, they kind of bounce around. They like half-heartedly do something or check a bunch of boxes.

And it's like we actually need to go deeper into fewer things. And that's when we see, you know, more consistency and then you can layer on skills, right? You can layer on strategies. It's not that you're just going to do this one strategy forever, but let's let ourselves catch up. We don't need to be in such a rush. I think that's also something that I've been having a lot of conversations with clients about lately is just, you know, once we create that 90 day action plan, then I'm giving them support in real time because guess what? Their brain is going to try to screw with them.

It's going to try to, you know, go chase something else. That commitment is going to waiver. Right. And so I can really coach them through how do we stay committed, what needs to happen here. And I think that is the most valuable part of the work I do, even more valuable than helping them create the strategy. But those are some things I'm noticing lately, like conversations I'm having is people are in a rush to get results. We're in a rush to quote unquote arrive, whatever that means. And we don't, we're waiting for confidence. We're prioritizing confidence over commitment.

Shannon Mattern (26:00.67)

I totally agree with you on seeing all of those things. I see them in myself from time to time, like of course early on in my business journey, because I think I I started really like, I started freelancing in 2014, but then kind of getting into the online marketing space in 2016, which, you know, of course.

Michelle Vroom (26:08.692)

Yeah.

Michelle Vroom (26:21.364)

Me too. Okay, so we're around the same year. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (26:23.558)

Yeah, so like, you know, all of the big launches and like, you know, all of these things and just thinking like, just trying to replicate the results that I saw other people talking about having and not really realizing like, my business model is different or maybe they put a lot more resources into it that I had available to me and really just trying to like,

follow what other people were doing instead of making my own way. And then once I gave myself permission to make my own way that and not try to do all of those things and not try to reverse engineer what I saw everybody else doing and really like lean into like what you said are the things that like I enjoy it and I feel good at which podcasting is like my delight of my whole business, like coaching calls and podcasting, meeting new people.

getting to ask, pick their brains and ask them all of these questions and just building relationships and having real relationships with real people is so much fun that when I gave myself permission to just do that, that's when everything changed. That's when I like met my way to the right, to people who opened like bigger doors for me than I ever could have imagined for myself. And I think that's like the magic of.

being okay to set down the things that don't bring you joy. And I recently was like, gonna, I had a whole, this is an example of like mindset coaching yourself into something that's not the right strategy. So I had, I'm not a social media person, never really have been, being on Instagram has been like a thing that I'm like, I should be on Instagram more. I really should be there. I should be there. My clients are there. I should be there. I had this whole story.

Michelle Vroom (28:00.365)

Thank

Shannon Mattern (28:15.934)

And then I would be like, okay, I'm going to do, you know, a month's worth of daily reels and, you know, just see, just gather some data and see how that, what, you know, what that brings me. And then I'd start to do the reels and then I'd be like, you're not doing this right. You're so bad at this. You look terrible. Like I just have this like negative self-talk going on. So I'm like, okay, that's problematic. Let me coach myself through the negative self-talk.

we're gonna clean that up. And then I was like, I'm just gonna try this and do the thing. I get through doing two weeks of reels without negative self-talk and I'm like, you know what? I still don't like doing this. I don't like doing it. I don't like the process. I dread doing it. It drains my capacity. I bet there are, I could reach out to 50 people.

real people and make a connection and pitch myself for a podcast or speaking engagement or invite them on my show and get way more out of that than all of this time I'm spending, like trying to coach myself into liking something that's not even moving the needle for me. Because someone said that they thought it was a good idea for me to do and I had been resisting it. And it's just like,

I finally just gave myself permission in the last month to be like, we're not doing that anymore. Like it's off the table forever because I want to do what naturally feels good to me. So I would never tell someone don't do, don't, you know, do Instagram. If you love doing that and it comes naturally to you and that's how you can connect with people and build relationships. Amazing, but you don't have to. And so.

I'm curious, I guess I say all of that to say, how do you see people mindset, mind-setting them into paths that aren't necessarily the path that they need to go down because they think they need to fix a certain thing?

Michelle Vroom (30:24.02)

Yeah, I see it in a couple of different situations. You know, I see a lot of comparison, sometimes comparing themselves to me as their coach, sometimes comparing themselves to others in their industry, and then feeling like they're going to miss something if they don't miss an opportunity if they don't pursue a certain strategy.

Shannon Mattern (30:34.941)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (30:38.93)

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Mattern (30:43.57)

That's a huge one. hear like, I'm leaving so much money on the table. If I don't do X, Y, Z, it's like, is that true?

Michelle Vroom (30:49.322)

Yeah, right. I was told that when I really went all in on my group, you know, years ago, I was told like you should be doing more with

Periscope at the time was big. I didn't listen to that one, right? But you should be doing more with Instagram, like definitely with more with Reels. You should be doing more with this. And it just always left me feeling like this pressure. And I was like, wait a second, what the thought shift that helped me there was, what am I going to leave on the table if I chase this that I could have through my community? So I think that was like a helpful shift for me. So I do see that come up a lot with my clients in terms of getting themselves into situations

Shannon Mattern (30:59.294)

Yes!

Shannon Mattern (31:11.314)

Yeah.

Michelle Vroom (31:27.796)

you know, but they don't really want. I also just think, and we don't intend to do this, right, but I think it happens subconsciously.

we sometimes are not honest with ourselves about what we really want. Like we set a goal or we set, you know, something we want to go after, but there's an unspoken expectation or there's an unspoken goal that we didn't voice. And so I often see that happen. And for me as a coach, like that just means I need to be a good listener. You know, I need to really check in with my clients if I'm noticing patterns or something that goes against what they're saying they want. Is that what they actually want? Or is that what they feel like they should want? I also, interestingly enough, see this come up with

Shannon Mattern (31:45.458)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Vroom (32:05.14)

women who are successful in their business and have gotten clients, we think once I do X, Y, and Z, I'm going to be so great and so confident. I actually see a lot of people make things more complicated for themselves at different levels, higher levels, if you will, or more advanced levels because it's like, don't I want to lose what I've already built? So they might stay with a strategy that's not that they've outgrown or a type of client that they've outgrown. see that sometimes because they're too afraid to make a change. And I've definitely

felt this too. I actually felt this way more when I started making multiple six figures than anything else and you would think like, shouldn't you be like more open to risk because you've already proven that you can do it? And it's like, no, I'm actually so afraid of going backward and afraid of losing it all. So I do see that kind of spinning people around as well.

Shannon Mattern (32:55.026)

Yeah, that's the piece about, you know, leaving so much on the table. It's like, what if that's not for you? What if what's on the table isn't for you? You know, what if there's, yeah, exactly. Like, what if what's on the table is junk?

Michelle Vroom (33:10.538)

What if the best is yet to come? You know? Yeah, like what if it's not? Right, like what if that, mean, what if the best is truly yet to come and what you already have on the table is gonna take you, like what if that belief of I don't wanna go backwards is actually going to lead to you pursuing things that will take you backwards?

Shannon Mattern (33:31.219)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (33:36.012)

with one of our students who this conversation reminds me so much of that because she's brilliant. So smart, like so technical can, you know, build all of these very intricate technical strategies for her clients who really require that. And found herself like, you know, also,

doing all of that work in her own business. And it's working for her. Yeah, it's bringing her the clients that she wants, but she's working a ton. And she's just like, I don't wanna work this much or this hard for this anymore. And then she's just had this realization that it's just like, I can just like go meet people, talk to them and tell them what I do and get clients that way because that happened.

where this client didn't see any of the complex technical things that she had built, had just like met her at an event and she booked like her highest paying gig ever through just meeting someone who had no idea all of the intricacy that she had behind the scenes. And she's like, it felt wrong to her that it was that easy.

Michelle Vroom (34:56.286)

Yeah, if it feels too easy, we try to complicate it, don't we? We say we want simple, and you're like, can't possibly be that simple.

Shannon Mattern (34:59.314)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (35:02.812)

Yeah, if I want to make more money, I must have to fill all of this time that I have by making my like marketing is easy. It's simple. It doesn't really take that much time. I have all of this extra time. I better go fill it up with all of these different strategies because I must be leaving money on the table somewhere. So it's so interesting the like mental gymnastics that we do. So.

When a client comes to work with you and you do this initial analysis and you kind of figure, you know, that figure out like what's working for them, what's not working for them, what do they want? What's their baseline? Where do you go from there to help them reach their goals and get, get booked out? I mean, is that, is that what you do with your clients? You like help them sell out their services or what does that look like? Yeah.

Michelle Vroom (35:50.706)

Exactly. Yes. Yes. Create demand and sell out their services. And so it looks like focusing on making sure they are clear on who they want to target. Oftentimes we have to look at their packages and pricing. Sometimes they're undercharging for where they want to go. And so we have a conversation about that. What did you say?

Shannon Mattern (36:02.472)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (36:08.926)

Speaking my language. I said you're speaking my language. Yeah.

Michelle Vroom (36:13.736)

Exactly. Sometimes they need to streamline to what they're offering. That depends based on where they're at. But oftentimes it's like I had a web designer work with me. Again, I've worked with a couple of web designers over the years, but

Shannon Mattern (36:17.436)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Vroom (36:27.838)

One in particular, I remember she came to me and she was like, I've gotten clients. It's not really an issue necessarily of like making sales. I want to sign fewer clients that are more high ticket for more money. And that was a shift that we had to make in terms of her offers, her pricing, and then who the ideal client was kind of came out of that along with her messaging and her content and her positioning. So all of that really has to go hand in hand. And so that's like the foundation of everything. And so we'll definitely work.

Shannon Mattern (36:39.218)

Yes.

Michelle Vroom (36:57.742)

through that. Sometimes, I mean, honestly, a lot of my clients have breakthroughs just from that work, right? That initial work where it's like, my gosh, I'm actually like, like, we'll evaluate who have you worked with that was either an easy sell that was, you know, somebody you really enjoyed working with and why, like, how can we notice patterns among your best clients among your dream clients, and then attract more of those people? How do they come to you? And so there'll be huge breakthroughs just from that alone. And then we move into marketing directly to them. So

like how are we reaching them, how are we connecting with them, and then how are we marketing to them, how are we offering calls, opportunities for them to book calls, book consults and talk with you. So I will advise a lot on content and messaging and some of that goes back to kind of what I mentioned earlier and really looking at how they can stand out. And then.

just really positioning the sales call in a certain way that makes it like a no-brainer for someone to book, right? For someone to explore working with you. And then sometimes I have to talk through the sales process with them. I've had clients who would get on a sales call.

They'd like, okay, I'm going to send you a proposal and they would send the proposal and then keep getting ghosted. And part of that was because there was nothing built in, like no follow-up call or anything built into a conversation, like a follow-up conversation about the proposal. was like the potential client was just reacting to it and they had no idea what their feedback was. And so sometimes it's less about like helping them sell on the call because most of them can sell like if they are connected with the right person, it's more so evaluating the sales strategy as well to make sure like

we're actually connecting with the person and like walking them through the proposal together and like talking about, you know, the work that we do and making sure that they have a space to ask questions, which gives us feedback. So we can see how a lot of people are missing that. A lot of designers are missing that. And that is like one of my things that if I could shout it from the rooftops for the specific audience, it would be, don't just send over the proposal. Cause then you're not gonna, and you won't hear, like they're gonna feel overwhelmed, right? The potential client is gonna see everything and then

Michelle Vroom (39:04.664)

and be left with their brain to talk them through it, which is a dangerous thing. We don't want that. Even if it's a no, let's say it's still a no, at least you walk them through it and you can help them make the best decision for them. I that's really what I believe selling is. And so I think offering that follow-up call that coincides with the proposal to walk them through it.

When I have made that recommendation and we've made that shift in their sales process, we've actually seen more conversions faster. I had a web designer that I worked with earlier this year to create VIP days. That would be another example of like streamlining their offers and being able to deliver things faster. And she's now creating templates and being able to kind of pursue like a passion project. So have definitely had clients who've, you know, wanted to focus on different aspects of the marketing and sales process. think for that client, I just mentioned content was a big piece of it.

She was talking about the work she did, but more so from a place of like the features versus like, is where this can get you. She was also inadvertently speaking to an audience that needed to be convinced that they need a website versus the people who already know and are like planning for a rebrand or, you know, already like have saved up and are ready to invest. Like, it's interesting. Sometimes we speak to the person who's not quite at that place where they're ready to buy. And then we wonder why the sales process takes so long. So those are, that's really sort of like the gamut of what

I cover with my clients and then depending on how they're working with me, I mean, either way, right? Whether they're working with me one-to-one or in my group program.

we're able to really dig in and make things personalized to them and focus on what area is stopping demand, right? So that you can not only create more demand, but make sales more easily because people are buying, right? And we need to market to the people who are going to see your offer as the number one priority. mean, if, if, if anyone listening would just make that one shift in their marketing, you'll see a ton of results just come from that.

Shannon Mattern (40:59.932)

That is so good. And what you said earlier about your web designer client, inadvertently marketing to like people that they needed to convince, like that they even need a website in the first place. I see that all of the time. And I think that's just like a little clue about their mindset that they really are like, they have this idea and I'm sure this happens across industries, especially with like AI and chat G.

PT and all of those things now that people are like, know, they don't really need to work with me. Like they have this core belief that like, they don't really need to work with me. I need to convince them that they actually need these results. Like there's, like you said, they're speaking to someone because that's their like worst fear about like what they're doing is that like, nobody will want it. Nobody will pay for it. they just, everyone just wants to do it themselves. And so,

They come out in their marketing with like, okay, first I have to convince you that you want this and you need this and that you should have it. And it's like, I love how you just came out and said like, those aren't your clients. Like there are plenty of people out there, but you need to examine your own thoughts about like what you really think about what you're doing and pull those to the surface and decide whether or not you want to continue like believing that.

what you do isn't worth that much and anybody could just do it. And maybe people don't even need it because they just have a Facebook page or like whatever, whatever it is you have going on there to shine a light on that and clean that little pile of mind trash up so that you can then confidently go and focus on, like you said, the people who are looking for you and do value it and do want to work with you and understand and those people are for sure, for sure out there. So yeah.

Michelle Vroom (42:56.371)

Yep, that mine trash, that's probably the biggest part of the work I do. If it were just strategy, it'd be so easy. don't know. mean, I guess my clients would still need me, but a lot of them are like...

Shannon Mattern (43:01.595)

Me

Shannon Mattern (43:07.77)

The same thing, I'm like, everything that we do inside of our program, I talk about on this podcast. It is not a mystery. Our entire marketing strategy that we teach is on this podcast. it's all of the reasons why you're afraid to actually do it. That is why people like Michelle exist and people like I exist, because we're there to really...

Michelle Vroom (43:13.824)

Yeah.

Michelle Vroom (43:33.74)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (43:37.596)

We, but like, I don't know the things that I think. I have coaches because they catch me in how I talk about things or what I say to be like, I noticed you said that that way. That was very interesting. Tell me more about that. And I'm like, my gosh, I didn't even know that I thought that I thought that, that I believe that it's just like in my mind, like a fact, like the sky is blue and it couldn't possibly be any other way.

And until you voice that to someone else, you don't even know half the time that the things that are in your way are really in your way. Like a lot of us know like, yeah, I have a problem with this. But there's so many layers to that onion that you're just like, that's really what's in my way. Like you said earlier, some competing values, right? Like you say you want this thing, but you want something else more.

Michelle Vroom (44:34.292)

Yeah, exactly.

And slowing down to make sure that you're focused on things that actually make sense for the phase of business you're at. Like a lot of people don't talk about the fact that, like, okay, everyone will say there's no cookie cutter marketing strategies. And I agree with that, right? But the other side of that, that I think people don't talk about is not every single thing needs to be done at this point in your business. Like that's when I, you know, I talked earlier about layering things on. And so sometimes I have to help my clients slow down too and make sure like, are you focused on like building a funnel

Shannon Mattern (44:39.528)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (44:49.982)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (44:58.962)

Yeah.

Michelle Vroom (45:06.734)

before you've even like gotten clear on your messaging. Like we're doing things out of order. There is an order to things. I truly believe that. I strongly believe that. I think that's one of the things that sets me apart is that we're gonna make sure we're solving the right problems. We're also gonna make sure that you're focused on the strategy that makes sense for where you're at in business versus trying to do something that we just don't need to be doing right now. It's not that that strategy doesn't work. It just doesn't make sense for where we're at too. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (45:31.912)

So good. What are some of your personal biggest breakthroughs that you've had on your journey over the past eight years to, you know, on the path to where you are today?

Michelle Vroom (45:45.876)

Yeah, you were talking about this just a little bit ago and I was actually thinking about the first time I realized that, and it sounds silly to say that I realized this recently in my business, probably year three. You would think that I would have known this even before being a business owner, but realizing I don't have to accept every single thought that comes into my brain as fact. I would say that I'm someone, yeah, yeah.

Shannon Mattern (46:08.06)

I realized that recently also.

Michelle Vroom (46:11.372)

I would say that I am someone who is a chronic worrier. That's something I've always struggled with in my life. And for me, realizing that does not have to be true here. You do not have to be a victim to your thoughts. That was incredibly eye-opening. I remember when it really hit me where I was and what was happening and all of that. So you sort of alluded to that a little bit ago, and I was actually thinking of that when you were talking. So it's funny you asked me about it. I would say that was probably one of the biggest breakthroughs

because it led to kind of all of the other mindset pieces that we're talking about. So I think that was a big breakthrough for me. I think that the situation that I talked about earlier in this interview about losing three clients in one day was actually a huge breakthrough because, and it might sound strange to say that, but.

Shannon Mattern (46:57.33)

Yeah.

Michelle Vroom (47:02.334)

It made me realize I have no leads. I have no backup. I am wait, and I know this is a web designer challenge, right? I know your audience has this challenge where we get so reliant on serving clients that we forget that we need more leads, right? We need to be marketing no matter whether we're fully booked or not. You know, a lot of my clients will stop.

and they don't notice it right away, but when do they notice it? They notice it 90 days later. And I'm like, well, what were you doing the last 90 days? I was serving my clients and I didn't have, and I fell prey to that, right? I didn't have leads. That's why losing three clients in one day, it was like, my gosh, not only is this the majority of my clients, but I have no way to fill that. And that led to me then creating a community, creating an audience of my own that always produces clients so that I can always fill someone's spot, right? It doesn't mean it happens immediately, but.

actually a year after, two years after that situation happened, two years later, I had a client cancel suddenly. Within 24 hours, I had filled her spot.

Like what a contrast, know, because I'm invested in marketing, no matter how busy I get. Now, sometimes I'm, you know, there's different phases of business where maybe I'm not trying to hit a particular goal or maybe I've scaled back a little bit because of whatever's going on, you know, with motherhood and that's okay. But I think on the whole, like that was also a really big breakthrough for me, a big realization, a big lesson learned. Like I am not investing in my marketing the way that I should be and I'm a marketer.

Shannon Mattern (48:26.076)

The thing I always say to our students is like the moment you book a new project, do some outreach. you know, like you, before you send that contract over, do some outreach, the, ride the high of the yes. And, you know, just keep planting those seeds and because you're exactly right. It's like we.

We, when we think of marketing as like a chore or I'm being greedy or I'm being salesy or I'm being pushy or nobody wants to hear this or nobody's listening. And then we get a client. It's almost like, relief. don't have to do that anymore. And it's like, you got to shift how you think about marketing so that it doesn't feel like a grind so that it doesn't feel like a chore. So it feels like a gift and you know, a.

thing that you love doing because it brings people together and it serves people and all of that and find a way to love it as much as you love building websites or providing the service that you provide so that it doesn't feel like a relief to have to be something that you get to stop doing once you get clients in.

You know, people tell me like, I just want to build up my recurring revenue contracts so that I don't have to market anymore. And I'm like, we need to change how you're thinking about marketing then because not having to market anymore is, something that is never going to be an option for you as a business owner. It's just, it's just not.

Michelle Vroom (50:06.836)

Yeah, we are not promised or guaranteed. I I've been in business a long time. It would be very easy for me to be like, I'm always gonna get client. I never feel like entitled or guaranteed to like get a client. I have to earn it. I have to earn my audience's trust over and over again.

Shannon Mattern (50:19.389)

Yeah.

Shannon Mattern (50:24.166)

I love that. I love that so much. you know, what are the ways that you specifically market your business and like, where can our listeners go to like experience that and learn from you and be a part of your community?

Michelle Vroom (50:42.86)

Absolutely. So Market Like a Boss is my Facebook community. That's where I show up the most. That's where I share a lot of resources regarding how to build relationships, how to market in the ways that we've been talking about, you know, during this interview, just being in control of signing clients and being the provider is really the mission of that community. And so for me, you know, showing up and coaching my community the way that I would coach a paying client serving before I get the sale, that is really the way that I focus. You know, I had a

client tell me just yesterday that she feels like my marketing is so like human focused and relatable. And, you know, it's like, you don't come across even though your business is doing well, and you're making good money, like you don't come across as this coach that's on like a pedestal, right? You're very down to earth. And it makes me feel like I can do it too. And I think that's really served me very, very well. That is something that comes naturally to me. But I don't think you have to be like somebody who is like me to be able to do that. I think it really does come with setting aside my

own agenda and just pouring into my people and serving them and doing it over and over again while at the same time

making offers and invitations to work with me. And by the way, I'm not making that to everybody in my audience. Who am I making that to? I'm making that to the people who are ready to work with me. There's always going to be a portion of my audience that isn't ready yet. And that's okay. And I think we need to realize too, when we're selling and when we're talking about our offers, we're not doing it to the whole of our audience. We're specifically speaking to the people who already know they want this thing. This thing is a priority for them. And now it's making an invitation and talking about how I can serve you. And I just rinse and repeat.

Shannon Mattern (52:16.699)

Amazing.

Michelle Vroom (52:18.59)

It should feel a little boring if you're doing it right. To be honest with you, I always say boring is the new sexy. Can we just like bring boring back in our marketing, in our business?

Shannon Mattern (52:27.868)

I love that so much. That resonates with me so, so much. One last question before we wrap up. What is one belief you had to change about yourself to get to where you are today?

Michelle Vroom (52:35.456)

Yep.

Michelle Vroom (52:45.248)

There's been so many. One that comes to mind is like what I'm capable of. Like if I've done it once, I can do it again. Success is repeatable. It's not a fluke. I think that that's huge. I've always had a hard time in my life. And this is ironic because I coach so many of my clients on it, but I've always had a hard time like celebrating.

my wins because it's like, well, did I earn that really? Like I'm just so critical of myself. I've gotten better and I have the tools now to be able to work through that. But I think for me, like realizing like, yeah, no, you did earn that and it can happen again, like more as possible. If you were able to do this, you can do more. Like why wouldn't you be able to versus I've reached my height? I think that was probably one of the bigger shifts I had to make in terms of how I viewed myself and how I viewed success.

And also like I can trust myself to find a solution. I can trust myself to keep like trying the next the next best thing. Sometimes that's all we need to do. So I think that's probably another shift.

Shannon Mattern (53:54.662)

So good. That is the perfect place to wrap up this episode. So can you tell everyone where they can go to learn more about your coaching, your offers, and yeah, where they can go to just get in your world outside of your community.

Michelle Vroom (54:13.068)

Absolutely. So the community, obviously you can go to michellevroomvroom.com for more details about working with me. I also have a 30 days to new clients calendar, which is a free kind of resource that I provide to anybody who wants it. It's literally got daily simple practical strategies to like build relationships, make connections and sign clients. Literally you can do these things in 60 minutes a day or less. So it's not super time consuming. So if anyone is interested in that, I'm happy to share that as a resource.

as well. I just think that no matter where you're at in business, going back to basics can be really important. Sometimes we overthink and rush past the basics. And so this really just brings you back to like, are the simple things I can be doing every day to sign my next client? So that would be another resource that also gives you a good taste of kind of my style and how I am as a coach as well.

Shannon Mattern (55:04.464)

Amazing. Well, I'll link all of that up in the show notes so you all can go check that out. And Michelle, thank you so much for being here. It was a pleasure to talk to you.

Michelle Vroom (55:12.48)

Yeah, same here. Thank you for having me.