#100 – Unlock Your True Power with Alecia St. Germain of the Conscious Edge

Shannon Mattern: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the profitable web Designer podcast. I am so excited for today, not only because it is our hundredth episode of the show, which feels like a huge milestone and accomplishment, and I've loved every single one of these episodes, but because my BFF, Alicia St. Germain, is here on the show as my guest for my 100th episode. And as I was thinking about what I wanted this episode to be, I could only think of one person that I wanted to be here to celebrate this with me, because she has been such an integral part of the journey from Web Designer Academy before to web designer Academy after and so many other things in my business, in my life. So, hello, Alicia. Welcome to the show.

Alecia St. Germain: I am so excited to be here. And, like, it is just so nice to be that person. Like, it's such a compliment, and it just touches my heart. So I'm so excited to be here. You're one of my favorite people in the whole world. You know that? You know I love you, so I can't wait to see what comes out of this.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah. So we were chit chatting for a while before this episode starts, like we do, and then we're like, oh, we should. We need to hit record. We were talking through some friends stuff before this, but we need to hit record. And I was like, yeah, so my. I talk about you on this podcast all the time. Like, your name comes up all the time. We talk about you in the web designer academy all the time.

Shannon Mattern: Can you tell our listeners a little bit more about you, your business, and what you do?

Alecia St. Germain: Yes. My business is the conscious edge. I'm the founder and the coach there in my little world, and I work with women a lot of times who are in real estate because that's my background. But from any walk of life, really, that is an entrepreneur. And we work through all of the self sabotaging behavior, like perfectionism, procrastination, overworking, undercharging, all the things that cause burnout, essentially that you get to that point where you're just like, I don't think I even want to do this anymore. And it's really about getting underneath why you're doing those behaviors, because those are really symptoms of self protection, symptoms of trying to make yourself safe. And so we do the inner work, the deep mindset work, the rewiring of the brain, finding new beliefs about the world and the way you exist in it so that you can build the business to the level and create the wealth that you want to create. And we do that in a really holistic way.

Alecia St. Germain: So it's not just about hitting your business goals. It's also keeping life in alignment, too. The things that are most important. Important that bring you joy, like family, friends, travel, whatever it is for you.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah. So you and I met in the weirdest way back in the day. I recall getting a pitch email from you to speak at a summit that you were hosting. And I recall ignoring that email because I get a lot of pitches. Not like, oh, I'm so popular. I get a lot of pitches, but I get a lot of pitches. And my kind of mo, if you will, is I typically ignore the first pitch, and if the person follows up and I can tell that they're a real person, I will pay attention to it and give it, like, my attention. So you followed up, and I was like, oh, okay.

Shannon Mattern: So I'll read through this. And I'm like, this actually sounds pretty awesome, like, what this person's up to. And so then we get a call scheduled, and I don't know if you called me. I think you called me, and I saw a 614 area code come up for you on my phone, and I was like, wait a minute. Are you in Columbus, Ohio? And so we figured out that we live in the same city, and I'll hand it over to you from here. What was your impression of that process of, like, how did you even find me to pitch me?

Alecia St. Germain: Well, so I hired a va to do the research, and I was like, here's the people. And actually, it's interesting because I was running summits, and I was going to run a summit around, I think, creating content, and somehow you ended up on this list that this va did. And then I changed the topic of the summit to, I don't even remember what it was at the time. It was so long ago. And I went through the list, and I was like, okay, who on this list still applies? Like, maybe they're still relevant because you were coaching, you were helping business owners at the time, diy their websites. You were still a relevant resource. So I had reached out to you, and it was so funny because, well, number one, we all know you're an introvert. I'm an extrovert.

Alecia St. Germain: And so how do introverts make friends? An extrovert finds them, adopts them, and says, they are mine for life. Right? So I was just like, oh, that's so cool. And it was during the pandemic, so we just met mostly on Zoom for, like, a year, year and a half. And we had so much in common. Like, we're exactly. I think exactly five or six months apart.

Shannon Mattern: Yep.

Alecia St. Germain: I can't do the math. From November to April 7.

Shannon Mattern: Exactly seven.

Alecia St. Germain: Seven. Okay. Look at you, math wiz. So exactly seven months apart to the day. Yeah, we camp. We both love camping, so we camped as kids at this, like, literally one campground away from each other. And just all the things that we have in common, the way we think, I. The way we appreciate it.

Alecia St. Germain: I don't know. We're just. I don't know. I think our souls are connected.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah, I would agree with that. And it's so funny when you're like, the extrovert is like, up, I'm going to make this person my friend. I am, like, the slowest friend maker in the world. I'm like. I'm like, okay, we can peel back the layers of the onion slowly over time. And, you know, we've been friends for almost five years now, but I just. I just remember being like, I really like this person. She's so fascinating.

Shannon Mattern: Like, I love getting to know her, and I don't ever. I'm never like, oh, whoa, whoa, this is happening too fast. But I'm just also like, wow. We just have deep conversations from the very beginning with, like, no pretense and no, I don't know, like, the fake effort. Like, no effort.

Alecia St. Germain: No effort.

Shannon Mattern: Like, oh, let me. I want her to think this way about me, or, I don't want her to think this way about, like, it just, like, went. It was just very, very natural. So with all of that being said, like, I trusted you from the very beginning. I remember you invited me to this mastermind here in Columbus, Ohio, that you had been invited to be a part of. And I also recall at that, in that mastermind, you're like, hey, I do this workshop. It's called immunity to change. We figure out what your particular flavor of self sabotage is through this process, and we do it at this workshop.

Shannon Mattern: And you're like, I would love for anybody in this mastermind who wants to come, I would love to gift that workshop to you. And I was like, okay, cool. And so I had no idea what I was getting into. I just liked you. I thought what you were up to sounded cool, and I wanted to take you up on the invitation, and I literally had no idea that you were about to completely change my life and my business just from that one experience. So can you tell our listeners more about what this process, this immunity to change process and this mapping experience is?

Alecia St. Germain: Yes. So we start with. Here's. Here's where I would start is that really, one of the things I've established is that there's four types of people when it comes to hitting goals, right? So there's the goal. There's people who, when they set a goal, they go after the goal. They hit it no matter what, or die, like, basically burn themselves into the ground to get there. It is not an option not to. They burn relationships.

Alecia St. Germain: They snap at family, they sacrifice their body. All right, so that's one. The second one sets goals, but always seems to come up a bit short. And in the process, they do everything, turn themselves inside out to try to hit that goal, but they don't hit it. And that really rocks their self esteem. The third type of person used to set goals. Now they don't because they were one of the first two. They've got some kind of, like, resistance to it.

Alecia St. Germain: And so they're like, we don't set goals, which is kind of a problem because you don't have a target. You don't have anything to go for. You just kind of aimlessly wander through hitting goals, or you don't have goals through creating business. And then the fourth person pivots a lot. Like every time it gets uncomfortable, they pivoted. And so that would be the first starting point, is we set a goal that's important to you, and then we look at, what are you doing that's getting in the way of that goal? And it's called immunity to change. It's not my process. It's a process based by Robert Keegan and Lisa Leahy.

Alecia St. Germain: There's a book on it called immunity to change. And it's really about, what is the assumption that you are making about the world and the way that you work in it that causes behavior that gets in the way of those goals? Like, why are you not, why do you procrastinate? Why do you need to be perfect? Why do you feel like you have to work? Even when you have enough money, you feel like it's never enough. It's going to be taken away from you. Why do you have these fears that cause this behavior that leads to burnout? Right? Because when you're constantly on edge and trying to control things that are outside of your control, you're releasing cortisol that burn, that. That is not healthy for your body. It causes the sleepless nights. It causes you to eat unhealthy. It causes avoidance and Netflix binging.

Alecia St. Germain: And so it's really getting under. What are you assuming to be true about the world that makes you act the way that you do? And once we know that, then we go to work on. Is that actually true? So I remember in yours, you had this big assumption that basically, if people don't like something, like, if I don't make everybody happy, then I won't be liked or something like that.

Shannon Mattern: If people don't like me, then I could lose everything.

Alecia St. Germain: If. Then I could lose everything. Okay. It's more. Even more intense than that. Yeah, but I remember you being so, like, irritated. Like, I don't really think that's true. I don't care what people think of me, which is very often there's some version of people not liking you or people being unhappy with you, and.

Alecia St. Germain: And always adults look at that and go, I I. This is. This seems so high school. This is such high school crap. But we're communal species. We're meant to be in community, and so anything that's going to threaten your ability to be part of the community is going to seem unsafe. The thing is, we need to realize what community do you want to be part of all of it? Because that's pretty unrealistic. Or do you, like, just want to go find your people?

Shannon Mattern: Well, it's so interesting that you say that. In the beginning, I was like, no, I don't really think that that's true. It's so interesting to notice, to reflect on the past. It's been almost five years since I. Since we originally did that, or maybe like, four and a half. And to look back on the version of me that's like, yeah, that doesn't really resonate with me. I don't think that's true. Now I'm like, oh, my gosh.

Shannon Mattern: I know that it was true, is true, and I see exactly how it played out before and after. And just even the process of, like, finding, like, going through that mapping process and finding the thing, it's almost as if you're. My brain was like, you don't want to see that. Like, if you see that, then we have to start changing. And if we start changing, then you don't know what's going to happen. And if you don't know what's going to happen, you can't control it. So better to just pretend like that's not really the right answer.

Alecia St. Germain: Yep. Yep. And what's fascinating is people. People like you were like, oh, I don't. I don't know if that's really true. But here's the thing. The way it's mapped out, it's a brilliant tool, because the way it's mapped out, it's like, okay, but if that actually wasn't true, you wouldn't do these behaviors, right? Cause we mapped it through. We mapped your behaviors to your worries, to your beliefs.

Alecia St. Germain: And so we can literally draw a line linearly from what you believe to how you behave. And so if that wasn't true, you wouldn't behave that way.

Shannon Mattern: Yep. And as a person like me, who loves to operate in if this, then that two plus two equals four logic, that mapping process really resonated with me. Once I, like, was able to calm down enough to see, like, oh, this is actually going to help me, not hurt me to go through this process of, like, okay, now that I know this, what is this? What does this even mean? And, like, really, truly looking at, like, how does this hold me back? Because so funny, when you're, you know, listing out the four types of goal setters, you know, my mo is not setting goals. Number three, no goals, no target. And so I'm curious your interpretation of how my big assumption plays into my lack of my resistance to goal setting, if you have any insight into that.

Alecia St. Germain: Well, okay, so, interestingly, because when I first met you, I think you did hit your goals, but you burned yourself out doing it, and then you started to set goals and not hit them. And that started, like, you really, like, traveled all of them. And so now you're in this. And I have to. What I want to be really clear is I have, too, that when you don't set goals, it is oftentimes because you don't want to get back to that place. You have had an experience with setting goals that was not healthy. I call them my unhealthy goal habits. There's a reason.

Alecia St. Germain: Right. So it wasn't healthy, and so now you're protecting from that.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah.

Alecia St. Germain: And it's what we make the goals mean. In the past, you've made the goals mean. I'm good, I'm bad. I've also heard you say, well, there are things outside of my control. So how could I honestly set a goal? Because that's those. There's things that I can't control. And when you can actually start to look at a goal as a target and not mean anything about you, your business, it just tells us what worked and what didn't. And so I think you do have goals.

Alecia St. Germain: Maybe you just don't want to declare them, because I know you're working with a team. I know you are always analyzing what's working, what's not working, what's a good conversion rate, what's not a good conversion rate. So you do have goals. It's just you don't want to put them maybe out there as a declaration, like, I'm going to hit this goal or die trying.

Shannon Mattern: Well, yeah. So it's interesting. It's interesting to talk about this now, because I do have goals, I have revenue goals. But I think the part that I didn't really understand is what I was making those goals mean and the pressure I was putting on myself that was actually hindering my progress towards those goals and not using them, like, not really using them for what they really are, which I can truly say now. It's like, oh, it is literally just a data point.

Alecia St. Germain: Yep. It's a metric.

Shannon Mattern: A goal is a metric. It's a data point. It's not a destination, it's not a, like a statement of if I'm successful or a failure, like I've really had to. But I didn't think I thought that way about goals. If you would have asked me if I thought that way about goals, I would tell you, no, of course I don't think that way about goals, but something in me did think that way about goals because I was so resistant to setting them. I can now see that if I give my brain no direction, it's going to go in all the directions.

Alecia St. Germain: Yep. So what that looks like what works. So what I find works better than specifically a goal. Like, you have some baseline things that you need in order to sustain your business.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah.

Alecia St. Germain: So that might be like, this is a good goal to reach for and then you're better and best. So I like good, better, best. Like, I will be good. Hit my goal. If I hit this, it would be better if I could do this and it would be best if I could do that. And so it's more of a range than it is a definitive one single thing. And I'm good if I hit it and I'm not good if I don't.

Shannon Mattern: Well, yeah, but then my not. But then, like I have noticed my brain go to, I have to hit this goal or else. Or else I'll have. These are the consequences, the big bad consequences of not reaching this target. And then if I spend too much time in, if I don't reach the target, then XYZ bad thing will happen. Now I'm focused on not the goal, I'm focused on preventing big bad thing from happening. And what does that do? Create the. Create cortisol stress, tamp down my high level thinking, make it so that I'm actually risking the goal by thinking about how it might not work out.

Alecia St. Germain: How not. Yeah, how it's not going to work out. So a couple things, and I remember we did this with you, too, is like, okay, so if that happened, what would you do? And I think we even got to a point of like, well, I could sleep on my sister's couch.

Shannon Mattern: Like, yeah, I could live in my best friend's drive. I could probably live in your driveway in my camper.

Alecia St. Germain: You could live in. Or you could stay in the house. Like, that's acceptable as well.

Shannon Mattern: That's so nice.

Alecia St. Germain: So. And it's the thing to understand is it's not like, of course we don't want to do that. That's uncomfortable. That's, you know, not ideal living situations. I'm 44 years old. I shouldn't have to do something like that. Right. But it's more important.

Alecia St. Germain: Like, does. What does that actually mean about me? And so sometimes people go, well, that means that I suck and I'm not successful, or it could mean I took a risk and I have people who love me, and I will always land on my feet. And so it's telling yourself it can be exactly the same outcome, but telling yourself the version of the story, that's actually really empowering. And so that's a lot of what we do. Even when we talk and something feels really bad, we're like, okay, but what's the gift in it? What's the story in it? What's a story that supports the likelihood that you couldn't make something happen, though, is really low because you're you, number one. You have so much resilience, you have so much intelligence, so much smarts, that when we start to play out, like, what. What's actually the worst that could happen? They're not even really realistic.

Shannon Mattern: Exactly. And that's the thing that I have to just. Well, it's like, not have to. Like, I do. Like, I've been continually reminding myself of that, and it has just been so much better.

Alecia St. Germain: Yeah. So it's just learning and recommitting. I mean, I think I just shared recently, I don't know on what podcast or where I was, but I. It took me six summits to be profitable, six for just the summit part itself. And most, so many people would quit after the first one. You know, whatever you're doing in your business, if you try it once and it doesn't work and you didn't hit your goal, it doesn't mean it doesn't work. It doesn't mean you're not bad. It doesn't.

Alecia St. Germain: It means that something needs tweaking, whether it's in your mind or your strategy or whatever it is, it's just you're a tweak away from getting it. And I think the most important thing is just, you have it. And I know you talk about it is the resilience is probably the most important thing. Commitment and resilience. If you have those two things, you're going to be fine.

Shannon Mattern: I love that. I want to talk about your journey over the past five years because I have seen, seen, like, such a, how do I want to say this? An awesome transformation, and yet not a transformation in terms of, like, you changed into, like, you just, I don't know.

Alecia St. Germain: I finally believed. I finally believed what you always saw is kind of how I see it.

Shannon Mattern: I think that that's exactly what I'm trying to say. Like, it was a disconnect for me to see how to see you as how I saw you interact with me and with everybody else that you were coaching and not believe those same things about yourself that I saw in you, which we all do that to ourselves, right? Like, all do it. And I'm like, over the past four years, I'm like, oh, she's like, reaping the rewards of the person that I always knew she was.

Alecia St. Germain: Yes.

Shannon Mattern: If that makes sense.

Alecia St. Germain: Yeah, no, it makes total sense. And we, and we all do do it. And even, even the transformational mindset rewire your brain coach also struggles with belief in oneself. And I remember, I think it was about a year ago, and I made some, and I'll get into that story for you, but it was, I just remember you saying, I always, you always said me, meaning me, that, you know, you didn't feel confident or you didn't feel this or you didn't feel that, she goes, but. And you said to me, but now that I see you, like, actually embodying this, now I understand what you were striving for. Now I understand why you were saying that.

Shannon Mattern: So, yeah, I'm, like, looking at you as someone who, like, if you didn't feel confident, then you looked super confident to me, and then when you actually became as confident as you wanted to feel, I was like, whoa, get out of her way.

Alecia St. Germain: Right? And I can honestly say, and it feels amazing, like, I'm going to own that. It feels amazing. When you get to that point, we spend so much time beating up on ourselves, not feeling good enough, you know, worrying about losing it all, whatever it is that you worry about. And so when you finally get there, and you really understand that you matter in the world. You have a purpose, you have a gift to contribute. And when you fully accept your awesomeness, it's very peaceful. It's really, really peaceful. And so my journey really started out in real estate.

Alecia St. Germain: Investing in real estate and then seeing so many people invest tens of thousands of dollars in learning the strategy of real estate investment so that they could create wealth and then not being able to do it. They would either do a couple deals and then they'd go back to nine to fives because they just couldn't take the stress of it. They had unhealthy goal habits, and they were making it mean something about themselves. Or they built really successful businesses, and as soon as something didn't work, they quit. And especially those people who went through the 2008 housing crisis, I saw a lot of people lose their entire portfolios. And so I've been around in that and seen the market cycle for a long time. But I was seeing these people struggle, and I was just not okay with people having. Taking that risk, putting that money on their credit card, and then going back to nine to five jobs with a ton of debt, and they did not get the return on their investment.

Alecia St. Germain: They did not get those returns. The thing I want people to understand, because this goes for your people, too, right? They've invested in programs, they've invested in things, and maybe they haven't yet got the ROI, but that doesn't mean what you learned is lost. It just means you haven't got there yet. So it doesn't mean the program didn't work for you. You're a different person today than you were then. So I decided I could do more good in the world, working with mindset and transformation and rewiring what you believe about yourself and the way the world works. Then I could teaching strategy of real estate, because there are people who are far better and more skilled at real estate than I am. And so this was my gift.

Alecia St. Germain: This was my calling, the thing I was supposed to do. I actually stepped out of real estate 100% in order to build this business, this coaching business. And now that it's stabilized and both of my kids are back in school, now I'm on my journey of wealth building, because I really believe that investing in businesses, entrepreneurship, I know this is going a little downfield from your people, but once you earn your income and you have your strategies, then you want to look at how do I build wealth for myself? How do I build some reoccurring income? How do I make it so that if I don't go to my job every day, I still have income coming in. And so one of the ways we do that is through real estate. Some of that is building agencies or doing a bigger picture. So that's what I'm really passionate about now. And it's not just about monetary wealth. It's about living a wealthy lifestyle, healthy, wonderful, deep friendships like you and I have, having good health, having time for the people that you love.

Alecia St. Germain: And so that's, you know, where I'm at now in my life. And we just started a podcast, the conscious edge podcast. With your support. You're so Shannon, my biggest fan. I get a text every Tuesday morning. Like, I love the podcast.

Shannon Mattern: I'm so glad you started a podcast. Like I was telling someone the other day, I'm like, I wish her episodes were longer, because I just want. And I know I'm, like, not the norm, right? I know that the data says shorter episodes, but I'm like, it's over. And I have to wait till next week because there's not, like a back. Because I started listening from episode one. There's not a backlog to binge. Like, the way you think is so fascinating. And as you were kind of sharing your journey, one of the early things that you said and talking about wealth and talking about, like, this holistic picture of your life, and one of the things that you said to me very early on in our friendship and relationship, you've pointed out to me that I had it backwards, that I was operating from the do be have model, where if I do the things or the do have be model where if I do the things to have the wealth, the money, the house, the things, then I will be happy.

Shannon Mattern: And you're like, it's backwards. That's backwards. You have to just be first, which will drive you to do and result in the hab. And I'm just like, so many things that you have shared with me along the way have broken my brain in the best way. It may have taken a while for it to the knot to start to loosen and then, like, loosen more, loosen more, loosen more and untie. But, like, just even being, like our coffee chats, our Zoom calls, you know, listening to your podcasts, you've come on our next level retreats. You've done workshops and coaching for our web designers. Every time I listen to you, something changes in my brain for the better.

Shannon Mattern: And that's why I'm so glad you have a podcast. I will link it up in the show notes. Everybody listening to this has got to go. Subscribe to the conscious Edge podcast because it's so good, but kind of going back to what you were talking about, like you were teaching real estate estate strategy for a company. I teach web design business strategy, and I could put every single tool that we use out there available for free and your mindset will make you make or break you every single time.

Alecia St. Germain: Yep, yep. And you, do you, do you have to have strategy, I think. And, you know, someone was saying to me, do you think I should do mindset first or do you think I should do strategy first? And I don't. I think if you don't have a strategy or a way to make money, you're not going to see where your mindset, your mind trash, as you call it. Your mind trash is right. If you have a strategy and you know how to make the money, but you're not doing it like you haven't launched, you haven't got your first client, you haven't, or you've only had a couple clients and you're just like, you hit a plateau, then it's probably a mindset thing. And Shannon, you have done so, so much work on your mindset. And I think that's one of the special things about web designer academy, is that you have both and you do both and then we partner so that you can even bring a deeper level of mindset work.

Alecia St. Germain: A lot of programs talk about having positive mindset and thinking the right things, but, but if you've got a big assumption in your unconscious mind that says, I will physically not be safe if I do this, no amount of conscious mindset management, good habits or strategy will get over that because it's physically unsafe. Your brain says it's unsafe. So I think that's part of what makes your program and what you do so special is that you do pay so much attention to that. So I think that's one of the things, is have strategy, know how you are going to make money, and then if it's working for you and you're making money, then we go to next level. And now it's like, okay, I'm working. It's making money for me. And something else is out of balance in my life. Either I can't figure out how to make the level of money that I want or I can't figure out how to have the time that I want in my life for the other things that are important.

Alecia St. Germain: But there's like, I'm making money, but there's something out of balance and I just need to figure out what that is. And so it does not matter what level of business you're at, where you're at in the process. There's always a mindset component of it, and it's different for everyone.

Shannon Mattern: I love how you just described that because I feel like, you know, web designer academy, you come in, you learn the strategies, the strategies, reveal where your mind trash is and, like, what your opportunities for cleaning that up are. And then as you're, like, noticing your mind trash, you're cleaning it up. That's also revealing what's really in your way. Because if you're like, oh, well, logically, I know that I shouldn't feel this way when I do this, or logically, I know that if a client asks me, is texting me outside of business hours, and I've established that boundary with them, and yet I still see myself repeating the same pattern of responding, and I've done, like, the mindset makeover work, and yet I still see myself doing the pattern over and over again. That's where mindset work wasn't enough. That's where, like, the big assumption piece comes in. And so that's really, like you said, the work we do in our next level mastermind is that Alicia comes in and does a mapping process with our students and helps them figure out what this big assumption is. Like, we figure out together, like, okay, what is your goal really? What's going to get in your way? What is this big assumption? How is it operating? How is it showing up for you? And then it gives you a whole new level of clarity on why, even though you logically think that you've cleaned up your mind trash around this, you find yourself doing the same thing over and over again.

Shannon Mattern: Once you see that, it really helps you have more courage to move forward and address the thing in a safe, in a way that makes your nervous system feel safe, rather than just, oh, I'm just trying to talk myself into feeling better about this, versus I'm going to actually approach this in a way that calms that part of my brain down that's telling me that this is too scary.

Alecia St. Germain: Right, right. And also, don't you think that it opens up a lot of forgiveness for people when you look at someone? So you got a whole group of people in a program, and someone is, like, killing it, making offers. They have no problem going out and making offers, and they're doing great, and someone else sees that happening and they're like, well, I can't find anybody to make offers, too. Right. And so they're thinking, well, what's wrong with me? Or whatever it is. And maybe you have the same people in your awareness, but your brain is blocking you from seeing all the opportunity because there's maybe a fear of being judged for what you're doing, or you'll have someone else who, like, is struggling to raise their prices, and someone else is, like, charging, like, $15,000 a project, and they're like, oh, my gosh. But if I raise it, I'm little. Gonna not make any money at all because no one will say yes.

Alecia St. Germain: Right? And so there's this. That's oftentimes related to worthiness and not feeling worthy. And so then you start packing in B's. I'll call it, like, B's, things to make your package seem more meaty or better. And that's not really what makes your client successful. It's not what they're looking for. So then you make this really complicated offer, and it doesn't need to be that complicated. You just have to realize that you're worthy of being paid and there's value in what you know and do.

Alecia St. Germain: So I just really want to say that you really cannot compare yourself to someone else, because growing up, that person may have had a different life experience or been given a different message by life than you were. You know, for. For you, Shannon, yours is really around. If you're going to do. I know this was your biggest challenge was like, if you were going to do something, you had to figure it out yourself.

Shannon Mattern: Yes.

Alecia St. Germain: And it's all on you. Like, it was always, it's all on me. And that worked for you to create a certain level of success. But then when you started to have to rely on other people, that caused you a lot of anxiety. And then when you made yourself responsible for other people, that caused you even more anxiety. And it really almost. I mean, it just really sabotaged a lot of things. Right?

Shannon Mattern: It almost made me go get a job.

Alecia St. Germain: Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Mattern: Right.

Alecia St. Germain: So we've, at different times, I like backstory. Like, behind the scenes, everyone, at different times in both of our businesses, we've both gone, I want to quit. And then the other one says, well, what else would you do? I think you said it to me first because I was, like, ready to quit almost a year and a half, two years ago. I was, like, ready to quit. You're like, well, what else would you do? Like, I don't know. This. This is what I'm called to do. And then you, about six months later, was like, I'm just ready to quit.

Alecia St. Germain: I'm like, what else would you do?

Shannon Mattern: So that's like, I remember when you said you wanted to quit. You're like, haven't you ever thought about wanting to quit? And I was like, no, never. And then, like, it's never. Like, it's not never an option. It's never crossed my mind. And then, you know, at the end of 2023, when it felt like things were. Everything was falling apart, I was like, oh, yeah. Like, I can see that quitting feels like.

Shannon Mattern: It feels like it would be relief in this moment from what I'm going through. And I really did feel like I was at a crossroads in terms, like, at a fork in the road in terms of, like, which door do I want to go through? And would quitting really be the relief that I'm seeking? And it felt like quitting would be walking back into the prison door that had been opened for me for the past six years and behind me and resigning me to that. So I'm glad that I had the support and the people to have the conversations with who could challenge me to say, well, what would you do? And I'm like, I just go work with my sister. And, you know, it would be awesome. She's amazing. She says that her company is super flexible, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, she sold it to me. Like, it was going to be the answer to all my problems.

Shannon Mattern: And yet, over the weekend, holiday weekend, she's like, I have to go back to work on Monday, and I don't really want to go to work. And I'm like, see? Like, I would have been back in that trap if I would have believed the lie of the relief of quitting now, I'm not saying nobody should ever, like, go get a job or whatever. Like, please don't misunderstand me when I say it just wasn't the right move for me. Like, it going to get a job would be solving the wrong problem for me. Like, it would not be the solution to what. Yeah, it would be. It would be me giving into the lie that I was failing, and it wasn't true that I was failing, and I just needed relief from the constant telling myself that I was failing.

Alecia St. Germain: Right. And. But don't you think I do remember this, and I would offer this as well. Is it if someone is in that situation, you're like, yep, I can totally relate to this conversation. And you found relief just knowing you had options.

Shannon Mattern: Yes.

Alecia St. Germain: And so if you think about, like, where you are in your business, number one, I was just going through. So as I'm working to create wealth. I'm, like, gotten really attached to my numbers. I used to be someone who didn't really, like, look at the numbers, didn't enjoy being within the numbers. I actually had a story that I wasn't good at numbers, and I didn't understand them, which is not actually true.

Shannon Mattern: I was gonna say, like, you were in the healthcare field before you were in the real estate field, so I hope that you're good at numbers.

Alecia St. Germain: And I never had to take math in college, actually, I got college credit for testing out of math, so. But let me explain. This would be really good, though, for people to understand. When I was in high school, I really didn't understand, I want to say, like, algebra two, and I, at one point, was failing it. And so I actually gave up my lunch, ate lunch in my teacher's room, and did my homework during that lunch hour and study hall hour and got help if I needed it. So I did all my homework. So I ended up getting, like, a b or a c in that class. I think he, like, I got, like, that forever effort, 100%.

Alecia St. Germain: And so that experience, though, was very traumatic for me because I am a good student. I am smart, and I also was always told that I was smart. And so if you're someone who's always told that you're smart, you can actually develop a fixed mindset where you believe you have a finite amount of smarts and that no matter you know what you do, like, this is how much you have, and you can't get more. And so the moment that I had to put effort in, I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm not smart enough. And so now I learned that experience taught me to put effort in. And so somewhere along the way, I made up a story like that. Doing math was painful. I don't enjoy it.

Alecia St. Germain: I don't understand it. Didn't understand taxes and spreadsheets that I was sending to my CPA. Hoped that I was doing it right, all the things. And so when I just last night was going through the progress that we've made in our business to get ready for purchasing real estate for investment purposes, I was like, we actually, on paper, would be great partners. Great partners, or we are very suited to qualify for a loan for a piece of commercial real estate. I have this dream. I really want to own Shannon, and I want to own mohican wilderness.

Shannon Mattern: Please buy it. Oh, my gosh.

Alecia St. Germain: I don't know how. It's a family owned operation. I have no idea how this will happen. But I think it would be amazing, right? So I want to. I want to. So we would be great partners. And so I was saying to Jonathan, who's also my regular co host on the podcast, I was like, you know, we really are doing so much better financially than I've made up in my head. And I think so many people actually are doing so much better financially than they make in their head, but because they don't want to look or they're afraid and they're making their numbers mean something.

Alecia St. Germain: I know you just did an income report about, like, how to do an income report for oneself. Those are my favorite episodes that you put out because you are so reflective, and I learn from you, and I'm inspired by how you do your numbers. And so it really made me just learn to respect my numbers and honor my numbers in a way, and love on my numbers in a way, in that this is my path. This is how you create wealth. This is how you create security and stability for yourself, is by actually knowing where you're at and where you want to go. Not anything else, not I'm doing good or bad, just this is where I am. This is where I want to go.

Shannon Mattern: I think that that is one of the biggest lessons I've learned from picking back up the income reports because it was real easy to do them when the numbers looked great. Back on my old podcast, pep talks for side hustlers, when I'm like, oh, yeah, we, you know, the numbers were what made me feel safe and secure. So it was easy to look at those numbers and tell the story and feel proud and feel like I was helping people by telling them how to. How I made such, quote unquote, good numbers, which that's all relative, right? Like, those numbers could be horrible to another business, but I felt like, oh, I'm doing people a service by sharing how I created this successful result. And then when I didn't feel like my results were successful, I felt like I didn't have anything to say and that it wouldn't be valuable and it wouldn't be helpful. And it was stressing me out to look at it. And I had all of these thoughts. And I think one of the, you know, there are several, several things responsible for us.

Shannon Mattern: Kind of me being in, like, a downward spiral, and now I'm in an upward spiral. But I think writing income reports again was one of those things. And it was all about how I had to choose to think about the numbers in a different way than what I was thinking about them when I wasn't looking at them and, and come at it from like, okay, if I'm going to write this and I'm going to put it on my podcast, it needs to serve a purpose and be helpful for people, even if it's not the, it's. I haven't reached the goal that I want or, like, the number that feels safe to me to, to create. And so I think that that's one of, I'm, I hear from everybody that those are their favorite episodes. And I'm like, I don't even talk about, like, your web design business in those episodes, but I do think that they help me tremendously, and I'm glad that they help other people. Just look through a different lens about what that means.

Alecia St. Germain: Well, and so that's really interesting when you say, I don't even talk about your web design business, right. Because it's two different business models, but the numbers are the numbers. It doesn't really matter what your business is. It could be real estate, it could be whatever. You're going to have expenses, you're going to have income, you're going to have money that gets reinvested into the business for growth. Like, everything is really the same when you take it to the numbers. So it so applies. And if, if we could boil all business down to three simple things, it's finding leads, making offers, and following up.

Alecia St. Germain: That's where all of your, those are your, I call them income producing activities. Where do you get your leads? How do you make your offers? And how do you follow up? Like nurture. Right? And so I don't care what your business is. It's the same. And, and if you aren't doing those things, you aren't, you aren't making money.

Shannon Mattern: What do you think? Because, okay, to back up, our audience falls into two camps, right, that listen to this podcast. The people who are like, I, who struggle to get leads, who, I don't know how to get leads. Where are all the leads? Like, where are all these investment minded clients hanging out like that? Those are the questions that they ask me constantly. Like, how do I get people? And then the other camp is, I'm undercharging over delivering, overworking, burnt out.

Alecia St. Germain: Yeah.

Shannon Mattern: For, you know, so they've done the, they've done the things to produce the income. They're just now, like, not leveraging it. Well, but for the people who are, what are some common patterns, thought processes, mindsets, whatever that you see that stand in the way of people, like finding.

Alecia St. Germain: Leads, judgment, fear of judgment. Number one is I'm going to put myself out there. Some kind of visibility, whether it's talking to someone one on one. I just know that you just did a podcast where you went through, like, I don't know, 15 different ways to find a deals when, or find, find deals. Look at me. Go into real estate. 15 different ways to find clients when, when you're new or depending on what level you're at in business. And so when you go through that episode, I would say to people, I want you to imagine doing it and now think about, what are you worried about? Because that's, that's the window into what you're worried about.

Alecia St. Germain: And I bet for a lot of people, it's. I'm worried about being judged as a fraud. There's like, fraud imposter syndrome. There's judgment rejection, being ousted from your friends and family. Some of that probably also relates if anybody has any direct sales type of experience, you've worked with any kind of direct sales companies, like, you start getting messaged from your family and friends, and you're like, ugh, that feels, sales feels icky. And so the thing is, and so then they try to get their everything perfect, right? I kind of, I got to be perfect so that I don't get judged. And I think the thing that shifted for me around that was realizing that I was prioritizing people who would never do business with me overdose, people I could help, people who wanted my help. I don't think you can say the wrong thing to your biggest fans, to the people who want to work, to work with you.

Alecia St. Germain: I've had, when I first started out, I had so many people who said to me, I had no idea what your program actually was. I just knew. I really, you said it at the beginning of this podcast. I just knew I really liked you, and whatever you were serving up was probably going to help me. And so I had a messaging problem. I didn't know how to say what I did and who I helped, but I was just myself, and I was willing to talk about it, and I knew what I did helped people. And so you can't say the wrong thing to those people. Those are your low hanging fruit.

Alecia St. Germain: But just think about that. You're prioritizing and trying to control what people think of you, who will never do business with you, and you're putting them ahead of the people you could truly help. One is outward focused, like, or one is, one is focused on what are they going to think of me versus if you're just out there? Like, I just want you to be able to do the most business you can. I want people to be able to find you and see what you do so that they can buy your products, whoever it is that you work with. If you are thinking 100% about those people getting exposure and showing up online and everything that you're worried about, so are your clients. And you're like, man, I know how it feels to want to show up professionally. I can help you do that like you really do as a web designer. You help people who are probably afraid of being visible and not showing up and being judged, just like you.

Alecia St. Germain: You're helping them show up in a way that they feel more confident. And when you get that, you're solving people's fears, just like the fears you have, and you start connecting with your people like that. You're just being a human connecting to another human. And why wouldn't they want to work with you? So, I mean, I think that's where I would go. I remember the last time I tanked an offer in front of a room of people, and in my head I was saying, oh, my gosh, these people can't afford it. They've already paid me. You know, maybe I didn't give them the breakthrough they were looking for. It did.

Alecia St. Germain: The workshop fell off. And so I knew that I did a really bad job on my offer. And after it was overd, instead of feeling relieved, I felt sad. I felt like I did not serve these people by not really helping them see that making that investment in their own personal development would change everything for them. And it was that moment I remember going, I will never be so selfish again. And that changed a lot for me. And I think as soon as people realize that when you're holding back on making your offers and you're making it about you, that it's actually really selfish, that's really hard to swallow, because I know your people are not selfish.

Shannon Mattern: That is so powerful. I'm just, like, sitting there taking it all, and I'm like, yes, I've been in that position where I've tanked an offer in different ways, whether it's, you know, I'm feeling some type of way about it, and, yeah, then you do. Or, like, you're trying to push them too far in. Like, you're trying to push too fast to make yourself feel better. That's typically my mo. Um, but, yeah, just thinking about it has, like, what you sell has nothing to do with you. When you're in that moment, if you can separate yourself out from, like, I.

Alecia St. Germain: Get the money I get.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah, it's like, oh, I get to do this because I have this gift, and I love to do this, and I'm passionate about it, and I know it helps people versus, I need the money. What are they gonna think? All of this stuff, and, yeah, like, everything you said just is, like, sinking into my brain even deeper.

Alecia St. Germain: I have paid. I have paid several people in your community to support me. Web designers Laura Komark Sarah GDD has done stuff for me, and I just want to say, because they are, you know, people who've worked with you and have worked your stuff, is that the way that I feel? I want to. I want to speak to your, your audience as the client. Laura, when she built my website, I had this vision for it, and it turned out way better than I expected. Like, I always have this vision, and when I execute myself, it always goes just, like, a little left of center, and I'm like, oh, wow, I totally mucked that up. But when she came in and she did it, I was like, this is who I believe I am. You portrayed on my website who I believe I am.

Alecia St. Germain: And then when I hired a photographer, she's not in your community. But, like, she took my photographs, and it was like, this is who I think I am. This is how I feel on the inside. You captured how I feel on the inside. I don't know if I look like this in real life or not, but that's how I feel on the inside. And then when Sarah g. Went through and did some work on my copy for my nurture sequence, and she's just getting started, right? I was like, oh, my gosh. And I cried because when I saw what she wrote, it was all my words.

Alecia St. Germain: It was all the things that I say. But it was like none of my limiting beliefs were coming through. And so what I want you all to know, you listening, is that when you do what you're gifted at and you do that for your clients, you're helping them be their best. You are doing them such a service when you really understand that gift that you're giving people. I love to pay. I love to pay your community. I love to pay for things that help me make a difference and help me show up bigger and help me get the right people into the room so that I can change their life. Money is meant to flow and not be hoarded.

Alecia St. Germain: And that's not to say I'm not a fan of, like, this. You have to. How do I say this? Like, in manifestation? Sometimes people are taught to spend money as though they already have it. Like it's coming. And then what happens is it doesn't come probably because of a mindset thing, and then it gets really mucky and toxic. I'm saying don't like just know that that money is coming to you. It's meant to flow, but do it like know your numbers, know what you can invest in. But I just really want your audience to hear that they matter, they make a difference.

Shannon Mattern: That is just, I could talk to you for two more hours. We are already about an hour. I know you're going to have to come back because I have so many notes of things that I wanted to talk to you about, but I really feel like that is the perfect place to end this conversation for the hundredth episode, which I cannot thank you enough for being here, wrapping it up by letting our listeners know, like, here's what you really do for your clients. You didn't just build a five page website with logo and branding and copy like you articulated so beautifully what the actual result of that work is. And why wouldn't you, knowing that that's what is possible for the people that you work with, follow the thread of letting everybody that you know, whether they are a business owner or not, letting them know what you're up to and what you do and who you help and how you can help them and let those people guide you to the people who are ready for that. And, you know, so for people that say, well, I don't know anyone, I don't have a network, it's like youre people who love you and support you the most are right there in front of you whether they need your services or not. And like just let them know what you're up to. So ultimately you can get to the people who you can help in that, that really, really powerful way and don't make it so much about sales and marketing and this and that.

Shannon Mattern: Like, thank you for just so beautifully stating what that experience is like as a, as the recipient of that service.

Alecia St. Germain: Happy to.

Shannon Mattern: Yeah. So where can everybody go to get in your world, learn more about you immunity to change your podcasts, get on your email list? All of the things.

Alecia St. Germain: Yes, I would say go to consciousedge.com podcast. That is the part of my website and the content that is the most updated. Right. We all have some spots like that that maybe don't communicate quite fully how we want it to and you know, we're all a work in progress. So I would say Consciousedge.com podcast, I would love to have you subscribe listen weekly. It is. It is for entrepreneurs. It isn't for just real estate people, but it's for anybody who's interested in exploring what it means to build a business and create wealth as a whole.

Alecia St. Germain: Human experience.

Shannon Mattern: Awesome. I will link that up in the show notes. Everybody, please go subscribe to Alicia's podcast. It will blow your mind. It is like the next level of the mindset work that we do on this podcast. She and her co host, Jonathan get into some really fascinating conversations. And, yeah, it's my favorite podcast that comes out every week, so you're never allowed to stop, ever. And we will have you back to talk about all of the other things that I wrote down as you were talking, because I think that they're really fascinating, and I want to pick your brain about it.

Shannon Mattern: And we normally do that privately over coffee, but why not on the podcast?

Alecia St. Germain: So that's exactly how our podcast started. I was like, Jonathan, we're having these amazing conversations behind closed doors. What if we start a podcast? And he was like, this sounds amazingly awful. We talk all about it. You'll hear how the podcast came to be if you go listen to episode one.

Shannon Mattern: Well, thank you so, so much for being here. I really, really appreciate it.

Alecia St. Germain: All my love.